[tastysandwich]

One of the best things I ever did was get strong through a basic barbell training program called Starting Strength.

Squat, deadlift, overhead press, bench press, chinups, eat, sleep. It really is that easy.

Highly recommend it for anyone interested.

1. Any back pain I had disappeared completely.

2. When I have to lift something awkward (eg, furniture), I don't injure myself. If you can deadlift 200KG, awkwardly leaning over your lawn mower to grab a 20KG bag of concrete is pretty easy.

3. It is really really handy being able to move heavy things.

4. Basically everything else improves. Going for a tough hike uphill? Your legs will be a lot less sore if you can squat 150KG. Need to hold your screaming baby for 40 minutes? Easy!

[ekidd]

I powerlifed for years, with a truly excellent coach for much of that time. For what it was worth, she was Starting Strength certified and a successful international masters competitor. She fixed a subtle problem with my deadlift using nothing but the wrinkles on my T-shirt; my recovery improved dramatically.

At 40, I was stronger than I was as a high school wrestler. I loved lifting. I remember casually picking up a piece of equipment that took two burly guys to lift and jumping down from a pickup with it.

But over the course of several years, I picked up several small but persistent injuries lifting. Two can be worked around. One makes it very hard to squat for more than a few weeks of training. None of the injuries, fortunately, affects me noticeably in daily life. But I'll never wide-grip bench press again, either.

When I was coming to terms with these injuries, I had a long talk with the oldest natty lifters in my gym. The powerlifers were all dealing with various chronic injuries. (Seriously, Rippetoe has published a bit of his medical history. He's a mess of injuries.)

But you know who was still lifting in their 60s and even 70s, injury-free for decades at a stretch? The natty bodybuilders. One of the oldest looked over at me one day, and said, "You know, I don't like the risk/reward on heavy squats. You do them flawlessly for years, and then one day, a group of muscle fibers decides to misfire for a moment when you're under the bar."

So, enjoy Starting Strength, or whatever other beginner program Reddit likes this year. And the two Starting Strength certified coaches I've known were excellent. Good technique is absolutely worth it. But once you've gotten those sweet beginner gains, talk to the old lifters, and think long and hard about where you want to go next. Because nothing is as important as remaining injury-free. And every older powerlifter I met was dealing with chronic injuries.

Once gains get difficult, think about what you really want out of lifting.

[hifromLA]

Man I wish somebody told this to a young me (although I probably wouldn’t have believed them).

Once you start making gains it does become addictive especially if (like me) you have some uh let’s call it mental health challenges.

After sustaining a number of injuries I finally learned to stop looking at the numbers, to stop comparing myself on exrx or symmetric strength. I just go to the gym and have fun. I still do the major movements but I always make sure to leave a little in the tank. I always listen to my body first and foremost. If it doesn’t feel right, it doesn’t feel right.

[oarfish]

Your experience is surely valid, but I wouldn't just generalize this to the population at large.

When you say "powerlifters", are those people who compete or just people who train? I can imagine this to make a difference.

And in any case, I wouldn't take Rippetoe as an example of good scientific programming these days. It's good for getting people into lifting, but Starting Strength has a powerlifting fetish for no good reason, and the advice to aggressively gain weight is also not appropriate for everyone (GOMAD etc.). Then recently I saw a Starting Strength video in which they claimed that the really grindy reps at the end of the set are the ones that make all the difference (for strength anyway), which as far as I'm aware is false and probably harmful, as you can do way more training volume with less risk of injury (I would expect) if you keep some reps away from failure.

[ekidd]

> and the advice to aggressively gain weight is also not appropriate for everyone (GOMAD etc.).

Yeah, don't do GOMAD unless you're a 17-year-old teenage boy with a BMI of 18.5 who wants to be a linebacker or something. Some of the Starting Strength advice is... very situational, to put it politely as possible.

Their coaching certification, however, means more than 95% of the "personal trainer" certifications you'll see in the average gym.

> When you say "powerlifters", are those people who compete or just people who train? I can imagine this to make a difference.

The oldest powerlifer I knew well who wasn't dealing with chronic injuries was a 40-year-old women's masters competitor. She competed around 135 or 139 lbs bodyweight, I think? She was absolutely a beast, with near flawless form and an excellent coaching eye.

Besides her? Almost every other long-term powerlifter I met was nursing some injury. But what really stood out to me was the absence of old powerlifters in my local gyms. There were old lifters in amazing shape. But none of them were grinding out the really heavy squats and deadlifts.

But don't take my word for it. All I'm recommending is that when new powerlifters max out their newbie gains, they take a good hard look around their local gym, and see who has decades of happy lifting under their belt. Ask those folks about their training plans and injury histories and PED use. You may see different patterns than I did. But for lifelong fitness, avoiding chronic injuries is everything.

[coffeebeqn]

It’s a very interesting shift in fitness culture as you age. In my teens and twenties I was adoring people like Ronnie Coleman and thinking that’s the life. Now I see him in clips often in a wheelchair - still with a great attitude but obviously not healthy.

Seems like in your 30s you start to realize the limits and tradeoffs and by your 40s most have accepted that longevity is the main goal - if it’s not too late and they destroyed a knee or back or something else.

[boppo1]

How does one know when newbie gains are maxed out? I mostly do calisthenics because I actually got into working out because it was part of injury-recovery. I'm enjoying my gains and would like to push myself to get bigger gains, but lifelong fitness maintenance has always been #1 in my mind. I'd like to figure out how to identify what the "maximum maintenance point" is.

[stewarts]

This depends on lift frequency, the lift itself, etc.

In general, for a compound lift (squat/bench/deadlift/overhead press) most would consider newbie gains exhausted once you can no longer linearly add weight/reps on a weekly basis (assuming a normal weekly schedule). This is the point when various forms of periodization (waving weight/reps/frequency up/down in many possible ways) need to start to support the increase of weight/reps over time.

[nwiswell]

> most would consider newbie gains exhausted once you can no longer linearly add weight/reps on a weekly basis

This is likely to happen after about 3 months.

I don't really agree that the kind of weights you can achieve after 3 months pose a meaningfully elevated injury risk, unless your form is terrible or you have some existing condition.

[zemvpferreira]

I can review myself in ekidd's experience. I've been in the gym for 20 years and plenty of stronger (but not competitive) people I know picked up injuries from grinding out tough sets of 5 or 3. Heck I have two abdominal hernias and a 'sensitive' back that gives me problems from time to time that I can directly blame deadlift PRs for, even with great technique.

The gym is generally a safe hobby, but scientific bodybuilding, with its large sets, slow eccentrics and focus on the stretch is definitely the safest way to lift for longevity.

[qtk8]

Do you have a good source or book (preferably) to start learning more about scientific body building?

[zemvpferreira]

Look up Renaissance Periodisation's stuff, they do a great job of explaining this approach.

[coffeebeqn]

Layne Norton is another if you want more of a natty point of view (IFBB pro). Mike is very enjoyable but I do find his advice often leans toward enhanced people and might not be the best for natties

[Jarmsy]

About grinding reps, I look to the example of Lasha Talakhadze, arguably the strongest weightlifter ever. Of all the clips I've seen of him training I don't think I've ever once seen him grind a rep. It's always submaximal(though huge by normal standards) weights done at such high speed it looks easy.

[throwaway4good]

I used to do karate. There were all these character who had seemingly superhuman physical fitness yet they would die really early. I always wondered why was that?

Now I believe that a lot of physical training isn't that healthy. And if you put your whole personal identity on your physical abilities then when your abilities start to decline, as they naturally do from age 40 and up, you may spiral out of control and literally die.

[pc86]

Anything to an extreme is unhealthy, and making your whole personal identity any single thing - being an athlete or a pilot or a parent or gay or disabled or a Christian or whatever - is a bad idea. But the statement "a lot of physical training isn't that healthy" is pretty objectively wrong.

[layer8]

I know several martial arts practitioners who had to have hip surgery at a relatively young age. It’s really easy to overestimate what your body can handle.

[kortex]

Going from a black belt in Taekwondo (age 7-16) to doing Isshin-Ryū karate (with some BJJ, aikido, and budokai in between) was really eye-opening. Taekwondo is all about sharp form, clean lines, high kicks. Punches and kicks go to full extension, and the stances are fairly deep.

In Isshinryu, there's none of that. You stop the punch/kick before the joint goes to lock. The stances are much shallower. The movements are less dramatic. My sensei told me it is much more sustainable this way, and many of the old taekwondo folks end up with joint issues specifically in knees and elbows. I don't know if it's related, but my knees and elbows are the two parts of my body which are most problematic.

It's also possible my taekwondo instructor just didn't know about this, that was a long time ago.

[xnx]

> There were all these character who had seemingly superhuman physical fitness yet they would die really early. I always wondered why was that?

Performance enhancing drugs

[rayxi271828]

Were you referring to people like Andy Hug of Kyokushinkai?

I believe he suffered from an illness, but in general I suppose having a full-contact punching and kicking bouts with gigantic men isn't very good for your long-term health anyway. Especially in Kyokushin where they have (had?) no weight classes.

[throwaway4good]

Yes. For example.

I actually don't think it is the direct damage from fighting that gets them but more the inability to stop and scale your commitment to what you can and can no longer do.

[ominous_prime]

Direct damage from combat sports can catch up to you eventually. CTE is pretty serious, but unfortunately you probably don't realize the extent of that damage until it's far too late.

[nlawalker]

Thanks for this! Do you (or does anyone) have any suggested resources for transitioning out of powerlifting into something more maintenance/lifestyle?

I got a good base of coaching in high school and later in life came back to lifting through Starting Strength. Recently I’ve gotten a lot out of Stronglifts 5x5 and a modest garage barbell setup to reach kind of a local maxima. I could keep going with it, and it would be nice to continue taking advantage of the simplicity of that program to stay in shape (or move to madcow, or something similar) but there’s no value to me in getting any bigger/stronger - I’d rather “diversify” a bit into other activities and avoid the injuries that come with heavy weights, but I would like to maintain what I’ve got.

I’m not sure if the answer is simply “just stop increasing weights” or if there’s something better I can do that would further reduce chance of injury, conserve energy for other activities, save time etc.

[eitally]

Well, one of the easiest paths is to stop doing oly lifts and start using DBs instead of a bar where possible. If you don't think you might have great form with DBs, just spend a few sessions at the beginning with a coach. The one thing it's hard to emulate with DBs are heavy deadlifts. For that, I built myself a resistance band platform similar to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/homegym/comments/kx57ho/i_made_a_re...

My experience is that it becomes equally fun for a data driven person to start tracking aerobic performance (rowing was where I started because we have a C2 at home, and then diversified into running and biking).

[kortex]

Can you define the technical terms? Oly, DB, C2?

I'm guessing DB is dumbbell (and bar is barbell).

[Jarmsy]

Oly - The competitive sport of Olympic weightlifting, which has 2 lifts, the snatch (bar from floor to overhead in one explosive movement)and the clean and jerk (from floor to chest height and from there to overhead).

Those who do it tend to just refer to it as weightlifting (one word), but we sometimes say Oly weightlifting when talking to others to avoid confusion with the more general weight lifting/lifting weights, which encompasses powerlifting(another competitive sport consisting of bench press, squat and deadlift), weightlifting and general resistance training.

Weightlifting is more dynamic and requires a lot of skill to control the timing and momentum, whereas powerlifting is closer to a test of raw strength(not that it doesn't require some technique).

[ImPostingOnHN]

not that any of this is common parlance:

Oly is Olympic weightlifting, a set of weightlifting movements/lifts. In various workouts, like in dieting, some folks decide on a subset of all the things (movements, food) which is good (or bad) and focuses on them. Powerlifting is another opinion of a good set of movements which focuses on weightlifting abilities.

DB is indeed dumbbell, yes

C2 is apparently Concept2, a rowing machine

[yCombLinks]

Oly, the Olympic weightlifting lifts. C2 is a brand of rowing machine

[superbiome]

I’ve found Marcus filly to be a great starting point for “functional bodybuilding”. He is an ex cross fitter with amazing physique but after rehabbing many injuries his programs and youtube videos emphasizes functional movements as a key foundational principle to all workouts.

[tastysandwich]

That's why I appreciate starting strength. It's a novice program and the gains come fairly quickly and easily. Rippetoe himself in Practical Programming makes the point that after the novice phase, you need to assess what your goals are and program accordingly. A football player will have different goals from a runner, who will have different goals from the general sedentary public.

I myself am pretty happy with where I'm at and don't plan on trying to squat 300KG. I appreciate there's a higher risk of injury pushing myself to my limits. And the amount of investment (time in the gym, getting a coach or learning enough to program for that level) is not worth it.

I'm not suggesting that everyone goes and tries to become a powerlifter. I'm just suggesting that for anyone who isn't strong and is looking to become strong quickly, Starting Strength is the best method in my opinion. And as others have pointed out, going from a 20KG to an 80KG squat will make a huge improvement to your life, and is very manageable for pretty much anyone.

[ookblah]

yep, as i got older chasing the 1RM became something that wasn't worth the risk/rewards. i would tweak something every once in a while and set back weeks as i recovered. wasn't competing and didn't make any difference in my health or how i was perceived.

at some point it becomes less about progress and more about being injury free and CONSISTENT (which can't happen without being injury free lol). it scares me that this margin becomes even less as you get older. i can imagine someone in their 70-80s being diligent and all it takes is some minor injury that takes you out for a week to begin a downward spiral.

[trabant00]

Injuries are not talked about enough on the internet. And they should be the number one topic for amateur fitness enthusiasts of any kind. Everybody is focusing on impressive performance results but:

- you will never achieve anything resembling impressive as an amateur natty no matter what you do. PED use is so common now they're the standard for comparisons

- your pay check does not depend on achieving certain results. Look at the pros when they stop competing, they know it's not worth pushing it any more

- any persistent injury significantly affects your life quality. A very mild shoulder RSI makes sleeping and sex complicated

- training 3 times a week for decades offers plenty of opportunities to make mistakes so you need to leave a big margin for safety

- 80/20 rule applies to the effort and results and to the risk and rewards

[memefrog]

I think the number one topic should be actually doing it at all. Too many people just talk about getting exercise, or endlessly watch videos about it, or endlessly read blogs and articles and guides, but never actually do it, or do very little.

[ImPostingOnHN]

I think it should be injuries, because of the reasons mentioned above.

It's better to not work out and not be injured than it is to work out and be injured, so the focus should first be on avoiding injury and second on actually going out and doing stuff. Same reason we watch safety videos before we do the thing they concern.

[globular-toast]

I'm 36 and I've now transitioned from being a natty quasi-powerlifter to a natty bodybuilder. I should have done it earlier. I haven't hit a strength PR in years.

I started with a strength programme called Greyskull LP which descends from the Starting Strength school of thought (although far superior IMO). I got some really good results with it. I'm naturally quite strong, so it took less than a year before I was doing things like 200kg deadlifts. I would watch other natties in the gym and, according to my own observations, I was usually the strongest guy in the room.

But the easy progression quickly stops. Once you get to lifting 2.5x your bodyweight off the floor, or dipping with 100kg attached to your waist, it starts to become really hard. I mean, yes, you've trained for it, but it's still incredibly taxing on the system and, let's be honest, not reflective of any real work anyone might carry out. Real work involves lots of toing and froing, not lifting one enormously heavy weight then going home.

I developed a really hard to change mindset that said if it's not heavy there's no point. I was still doing 3x5 reps of everything, often to failure, after years and years of lifting and never making any strength gains anyway. I eventually developed an elbow injury thanks to too many weighted chin ups. I prided myself on being able to chin up 3 plates when most people can't even do bodyweight. Well, now I can't do bodyweight either (not without pain at least).

I made the change after watching some of Scott Herman's more recent videos on Youtube. He's now 39 and still in excellent shape. Unlike most on Youtube, I believe he is natty too. He does high volume work which, naturally, will be nowhere your strength limit. I was still doing 3x5 reps, now I'm doing 3x8 with drop sets. Way more volume, way more variety of movements, way less weight. It's been so much better.

I'd still recommend a starting strength programme to beginners, but you really need to get off it after a year or so and decide whether you want to be a bodybuilder or strength athlete. And before you decide to be a strength athlete, look at seasoned strength athletes and decide if you want to look like them when you are their age, or not.

As for juiced bodybuilders/athletes, don't even consider it. You think you'll get more women (be honest, that's why you do it). But, in fact, the love of your life doesn't care how strong you are or if you are 10% body fat. All you'll do is destroy your body. Lifting heavy just destroys it even more (see Ronnie Coleman).

[RankingMember]

> As for juiced bodybuilders/athletes, don't even consider it. You think you'll get more women (be honest, that's why you do it). But, in fact, the love of your life doesn't care how strong you are or if you are 10% body fat.

Agreed. It also occurred to me while reading your comment that there are a lot of parallels to this in the auto enthusiast world- guys going deep into debt on a depreciating asset, sometimes overtly to look cool for women, when in reality all they end up with is a sausage-fest of guys rubbernecking and coming up to them in parking lots.

[mlrtime]

I want to add to this. I'm also a Starting Strength alumni, moved on to the advanced programs and last stopped at 5/3/1.

One thing I learned: When I was peak-ego my DL/SQ/BP was ~1300lbs. I remember actively thinking the people on the machines and especially the "Smith" machine were wasting time.

Then after awhile, I switched gyms and noticed the biggest/oldest guys were not olympic lifting, they were all on machines. I got to talking to them and they said the same thing, they weren't chasing power numbers, they wanted to stay safe and the machines allowed them to do that.

You can still get injured on a leg press machine, but it offers most of the advantages without the huge risk of 350lbs dropping on your neck.

[saiya-jin]

I partially agree - pushing limits is plain stupid given enough time, every single time injuries happen, to everybody out there. If they say not to them they are either lying or just begun the sport recently.

I have different approach, with similar result so far to those bodybuilders without actually doing it - don't lift your max, but do it with free weights as much as possible, in good form (the most important bit long term). You don't need to look ridiculously bulked, say well-defined is more than enough, even for women's attractivity. Those massive muscles always hide very unhealthy eating habits (ie > 200g of protein every day will mess up your organs and joints badly over decades) and tons of injuries, plus they are very hard to maintain if you actually want to be happy in your life and do other stuff.

I strongly recommend removing some weights and adding repetitions, you can still reach failure threshold if you want, but in much safer way. Easier to maintain perfect form for each exercise too. You mention lifting heavy stuff in weird positions - that's recipe for injury regardless of age or shape, rather just be a bit smarter with lifting.

What is much better to be able to have some stamina - weightlifting on the limits alone ain't going to give you much of that (saw more than once a ripped guy who didn't do any cardio trying to make >1000m altitude difference hike, well he struggled a lot, on a way up and then knee pain started say in the middle of descent).

There are tons of things apart from main, most visible muscle groups that you really want to train - small stabilizing muscles, tendons, ligaments, joint flexibility, and stamina for all of those. Body is a complex and interconnected system, no point overdeveloping just few main parts for the show or mirror look, rather work on everything.

[rayxi271828]

Do you think one can lift heavy but with machines, and get the same risk/reward ratio as bodybuilders?

In other words, train for power (rather than hypertrophy), but instead of using barbells, use dumbbells or machines, to minimize the risk of injury?

[ekidd]

I think it makes sense to get started exercising, using any kind of good program at all, and to pay attention to technique.

I don't have injury stats on machines versus free weights. Almost all the serious lifters I knew (bodybuilders or powerlifters) did plenty of free weight work. This included one 67-year-old bodybuilder in amazing shape who'd been injury-free for decades. He used a mix of free weights and machines, but he didn't squat the kinds of weights the serious powerlifters did, either.

You can make yourself a lot stronger than the average person with pretty low risk of injury, if your technique is good. As far as I can tell, you can do it pretty safely with a squat rack, some safety bars, a bench, a bar, and some weights. According to BroScience(TM), lol, the advantage of free weights is that if you have good technique, then you wind up working large parts of your body as a unified system, or something. (Bro science is like blog posts on unit testing; everyone's got a theory and almost nobody has numbers.)

But once you hit "a lot stronger than the average person", where do you go next? Do you maintain? Do you keep trying to lift more? Do you decide to go for a bit of hypertrophy?

And that's where I think it makes sense to talk to the old lifters, and look for patterns. Don't believe me. I'm just some guy on the Internet. Go talk to the old guys who've been doing it for 40 years and who aren't wearing tons of wraps and tape. By the time you need to make these decisions, you'll likely know some old guys at your gym, anyways.

[omnimus]

I am not sure if you minimize risk of injury that much. You might get injured on machine or dumbbell if you go heavy.

Anyway with most machines you won't be able to load it heavy enough quite soon.

I think there is also happy middle ground where you train for strength but not into extremes - you progress at slower pace and prioritize form. I would say bodybuilders can also be strong and healthy but they can't use that strength properly (because of the type of training they do) and destroy their health with drugs.

[RankingMember]

> I am not sure if you minimize risk of injury that much. You might get injured on machine or dumbbell if you go heavy.

The thing machines have that free weights don't are in-built safeties, either by design or as a discrete component (e.g. smith machine). The only machine I can think of that you can get seriously injured on is a leg press machine, whereas there are a multitude of ways to hurt yourself with free weights, especially any exercise where you're under the bar. I say this as someone who has historically trained with a ton of emphasis on the Big 5/Golden 5 compound movements (i.e. not machines). The safety aspect is a big reason casual fitness clubs (e.g. Planet Fitness) have no barbells on the premises.

[omnimus]

You are right. I meant it if you do excercises “properly” it shouldnt be big difference. But of course that already means freeweights are more dangerous.

[Broken_Hippo]

and destroy their health with drugs.

I mean, if they are the type that are using steroids and such things, sure. The other sort that are into drugs just gets stoned and lift weights. The risks just aren't the same: Sure, you are going to do some damage with pot, but not the same sort and you'll certainly not be so much worse than the person that gets stoned and plays games a lot of the day or gets stoned and works at a gas station.

(I worked with an ex-professional body builder: He was the second type and couldn't compete with the steroid crowd. He was OK with that)

[mlrtime]

Power Lifting != Bodybuilding

One group goes after the raw numbers regardless of aesthetics.

The other is mostly aesthetics.

[malfist]

That's a bit of an over simplification.

You can't go for aesthetics without chasing numbers to some degree. You do, after all, have to build that muscle you want to show off.

[tashoecraft]

My focus has been on calisthenics, but I still do some lifting. My thoughts have been that lifting free benefits from increasing the strength of all the stabilizing muscles. machines take away a lot of that so that you can target a particular muscle/group very effectively.

So my completely uneducated opinion is, machines might be worse in the long run.

[pyinstallwoes]

What does natty mean in this context? As in like non-natural? Testosterone supplemented workouts?

[nkurz]

"Natty" means natural, and describes those who lift without performance enhancing drugs such as steroids, although some questionable supplements might be allowed. The opposite, describing those who use such drugs, might be "enhanced".

[sk0g]

What's the questionable supplements allowed? Herbal stuff like ashwagandha or whatever, or not-technically-steroids-but-close-enough substances like SARMs?

[ekidd]

Creatine is common among people who've maxed out their beginner gains but who are still chasing PRs. You get a fair bit of it naturally in food, and it's been studied to death by nearly every sports medicine program in the world: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/17674-creat...

Creatine will let you push an 8 rep set to 9 or 10. And when every pound on the bar is bought with two weeks of complicated periodization, that little bit helps. And creatine is allowed by basically every athletic league.

Real PEDs are a whole different ball game. Much bigger risks.

[Jarmsy]

I think most people would count anything not forbidden for Olympic athletes as natty (not that most Olympic athletes actually are, but that's another discussion).

[michaelhoney]

Yes. Bodybuilding (big muscles and low body fat, for aesthetics) is very much a place where chemical assistance is common. But there are those who prefer to do it natural (and are way less likely to die young).

[_hush_]

If your squat problem is knee or back related, I recommend checking Ben Patrick aka KneesOverToesGuy and his programs. I'm not affiliated to it by any mean but I've been a paying customer for a year and a half and his method of training has been life changing. My knees and legs are now robust and bulletproof, they used to be weak and painful

His approach to shoulder training might be of interest too if one of your injuries is shoulder related

[ekidd]

Thank you for the thoughts! My injuries have all been professionally rehabbed, some of them by MDs who treat competitive lifters. I didn't give up easily. :-)

But to take an example, there's not much you can do to rehab a partial TFCC tear in your 40s. There just isn't enough blood flow. I could get surgery, but my TFCC is already better than 90% of surgical outcomes.

It rarely affects me in daily life, but I can't train wide grip bench presses without immobilizing the wrist with a steel brace.

Once you hit 40, you can still get strong. But sooner or later, a doctor's going to sit down with you and say, "There's nothing I can do to fix this that won't make things worse."

But as another doctor told me, "Look, you have a choice. As you age, you can spend too much time talking to your orthopedic surgeon, or too much time talking to your cardiologist." Physical activity is essential, but it comes at a price. Staying as injury-free as you can manage is everything.

[rip_netrunner]

I think it's important to point out to people that are hesitant to lift due to the perceived risk of injuring themselves is that lifting has a much lower injury rate than most other activities (with proper coaching and programming).

Citing from Bigger, Leaner, Stronger by Michael Matthews, he points to a review of 20 studies performed by Bond University that found the average injury rates for the following activities:

1. Bodybuilding - 1 / 1000 hours

2. Crossfit, Olympic Weightlifting, Powerlifting - 2-6 / 1000 hours

3. Long Distance Running - 10 / 1000 hours

4. Hi Impact Sports (Hockey, Football, Soccer, Rugby) - 6 - 260 / 1000 hours

I'm personally committed to progressively lifting heavy until I turn 40 at which point it becomes more difficult to add muscle. At that point, I'll look into transitioning into a sustainable program that will let me preserve as much muscle as possible as I age with minimal risk.

[ekidd]

> 2. Crossfit, Olympic Weightlifting, Powerlifting - 2-6 / 1000 hours

This seems about right? Let's say you powerlift 6 hours a week, 50 weeks a year. (This is believable after a year or so.) That's 300 hours. And you're picking up an injury every 170-500 hours. That seems... plausible?

What matters is how quickly and completely those injuries heal. If you tweak something, maybe you can just ice it, and maybe you're all healed up in two weeks, no problem.

But once you've been powerlifting seriously for a year, you're moving around real weight. Granted, you know you can handle the weight, you're moving it carefully, and you've got safety bars to catch anything you drop.

But some of the injuries you might pick up don't go away so easily. And over 40 years of heavy lifting, those numbers can add up.

> 1. Bodybuilding - 1 / 1000 hours

This represents a 2-6 fold reduction in injury. And you'll be working slowly with lighter weight, so physics probably offers fewer chances for disaster.

So I'd guess that bodybuilding has a lower baseline injury rate, and possibly less severe injuries on average?

[pulpfictional]

What's the plan to stay injury-free? I don't know any bodybuilders.

[piva00]

You can either choose to lift until you find a sweet spot of strength you are content with and not push past it, avoiding injury from ever-heavier lifts. Or you'll want to progress slower when you are at intermediate-advanced level, lifting is pretty safe as a sport if you do it with proper form until you get to the upper boundaries.

Rest well, eat enough, don't push it when something is feeling a "little weird" with some muscle. My worst injury as a beginner 10+ years ago was to finish a deadlift routine after feeling a muscle slightly pulled after the first rep, I had a bad lower back pain for weeks that left me uncomfortable doing anything: laying down, sitting, walking, etc.

If you don't know any bodybuilders I'd recommend getting a good coach on your beginner phase to fix your form, you don't need to keep a coach after you learn the basics, and bad form is the #1 source of injuries at lowest levels. Starting Strength is a decent beginner routine but over time you'll want to add some auxiliary exercises to work smaller muscles, in my routine I like to start the training session with big lifts (deadlift, squat, standing barbell rows, chin ups/pull ups, bench press, and overhead presses) and after those I follow with auxiliary movements (face pulls, dumbbell presses/curls, calves, etc.).

I chose to not push myself past a level I got comfortable with, never tried a deadlift heavier than 220kg, my squats hover between 130-140kg, bench press around 80kg, military press around 55-60kg. I feel strong enough and been injury-free for years, it's a good maintenance level and my goal with lifting has always to just keep mobility in older age, not to keep growing muscles/strength as far as I could push.

[omnimus]

Also for most people being able comfortably deadlift even 1x of their weight in a set would be big improvement and they would probably get most of the benefits.

The problem is once people get to that - why would they stop?

[semireg]

I’m 40. I do 3 sets of 8 deadlifts about 5-10% over my body weight. This routine wears me out but each single rep feels easy. I can do this routine every day. You could say I’m maintaining, but I’m still reaping benefits years later. I consider it effective cross training for cycling. In between sets I do bicep curls and tricep kickbacks. My goal is to find a routine that will follow me until old age.

[RankingMember]

Especially if you're a cyclist, I think maintenance weight training like this is huge. Cycling, for all it's benefits, seems to be more likely to have a negative impact on bone density than a positive one.

https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230645/

[rayxi271828]

I wonder how to tell whether one's reached that sweet spot. Is it when the lift hasn't increased for months?

And of course there's the variable of age as well.

[piva00]

For me it was when I start noticing that the bad days where I'd fail my intended lift happened more often than the days I progressed.

An example, when I was trying to push my bench press over 87,5kg I was going with 1-2 sets of warm-up (~8-10x 70kg then adding 5kg to the 2nd warm up), followed by: 1 set of 5x85kg, 5x87,5kg and trying to go 3x90kg but noticed I was failing the 3x90kg set for 4+ weeks in a row, I kinda knew it was going to take more effort and a different approach than just my very basic way to increase load, I was happy with lifting 87,5kg on the bench and just stopped trying to push it further.

Age has definitely affected my recovery time, stamina, etc. but because I've been lifting on-off since my teens playing tennis, and only focusing on strength training for its own sake later in my 20s. I do have a "baseline" that I can reach in about 4-6 months even when I stop training completely for a while, the strength you gain changes your muscles (I think it creates extra nuclei in muscle cells, unsure how true that is, lots of pseudoscience in fitness-world) and it comes back. That's one of the main reasons I recommend all of my sedentary friends to try lifting for a while, it will help when one is older.

[pulpfictional]

Thank you!

[zemvpferreira]

-Develop excellent technique. -Learn to stop at technical failure, never muscle up reps at any cost. -Focus on slow eccentrics, deep stretches under load. -Keep your sets over 10 reps.

[rqtwteye]

From some age on (40-50?) you have to train to maintain, not to improve. Some can train really hard up to old age but most people tend to accumulate nagging injuries that can take away the ability to train at all.

[oarfish]

Don't exceed your recovery resources. Anecdotal reports are not helpful when determining injury risk.

Overall injury incidence in strength sports is very low. But if you do it to compete, maybe there is an argument to be made that pushing the limits increases it.

Overall though, the much greater risk is to not train. Whether you do barbell movements or machines is not a determinant of of health outcomes, as far as we know.

I would not put stock in anecdote without some numbers on injuries among non-competing powerlifters.

[pulpfictional]

Thank you.

[kugla]

Lift hard but do let life get in a way.

[semireg]

By natty do you mean natural? Like … the opposite of power?

[coffeebeqn]

Opposite of enhanced. Someone who hasn’t taken any performance enhancing drugs

[swores]

Am I right to assume there aren't any PEDs that are useful without having negatives?

I have no interest in competing/fairness, the only weight training I do is a) very light and b) just to have slightly stronger muscles to make the life I want to live easier (from going on nice walks to cycling to being able to pick up a heavy object without stress etc.)

So I don't care about stats or achievements or how my muscles look, but if there was a pill that could make me stronger for less effort without any side effects or risks I'd be more than happy to take it. But I guess that's still a pipe dream and I just need to keep on putting up with doing exercise more than I particularly want to?

[RankingMember]

There are always negatives to PEDs- some of the impact can be mitigated, but you're taking a long-term risk for a short-term result. If your goal is healthy longevity, I would steer clear.

That said, one supplement (not a PED) that is widely used and well-studied in the body-building world is creatine. Just make sure you drink enough water, as it causes you to retain a bit of water (I learned this the hard way, waking up with a bloody nose it dried my sinuses out so much).

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-creatine/art-20...

[ekidd]

Creatine has the advantage of being well supported by science, and safe for most people.

But for a beginning lifter, I wouldn't bother. Early on, literally every single workout will bring you bigger gains than creatine will. Do your 3x5 or 5x5 sets, go back a few days later, add 5 pounds. Easy.

Creatine makes the most sense once you've been lifting for a few months, and once you've figured out your diet, and your progress is starting to slow. As I understand it, it's tweaking your intramuscular energy storage just enough to turn a 9 rep set into a 10 rep set. Which is a good deal once you've exhausted your newbie gains.

But it's not going to do much for someone who's exercising casually.

[coffeebeqn]

They are all varying levels of dangerous. The most common warning I hear is that the heart is also a muscle. But there are many complex issues that come with PEDs. Anyone who had used them and is a serious person will tell you, a) don’t do it, b) if you really must, do it after you’ve reached your genetic peak as a natural with 5-10 years of heavy training.

[memefrog]

Far more people are hurt by not doing enough exercise than are hurt by doing too much.

[dghughes]

I think people get into the mindset of needing to go nuts when exercising/health or they need to be at a gym. All they need to do is be active for about 30 minutes each day by going for a walk or biking.

Many cultures and countries ranked as healthy, and I mean overall like children to elderly are places where people walk everywhere. They aren't all power lifting or even going to gyms.

Strength training is good but overall daily activity is best.

[lo_zamoyski]

True, but statistics has nothing to do with correctness. Something done in excess, in either direction, is done in excess regardless of how many people do it.

The via media comes with difficulty as it requires reason and discernment, whereas extremes are easy and mindless, and people either under-exercise (the more common case) or over-exercise.

But historically, I would argue that we see more extreme "fitness" fads today than we did previously. Really dumb stuff that no longer has anything to do with health or fitness or beauty and more to do with some weird obsession.

[Martinussen]

We're talking about the set of people that actually weight lifting exercises, though, not the population.

Someone that goes for regular long walks is better off than a powerlifter, I doubt you would consider that a convincing argument against the gym.

[sk0g]

To put it in programming terms, you're likely to improve more with the slow grind of an hour or so an evening side-project, rather than competing in a hackathon every 3 months.

One observation I had was that people coming to the gym to spend majority of their time on the treadmill are mostly women. I'm not sure if it is to lose weight, or simply because with infrastructure hostile to walking, the likelihood of problematic encounters increases greatly. Though I wouldn't feel entirely safe walking around at 23:00 without my dog either.

[12345hn6789]

This is essentially the same as telling folks to stop driving because eventually you'll be in an accident running your life.

Lifting should always be taken seriously and "your muscles misfiring" is not a legitimate excuse for a lapse in judgment and lifting more then you should.

[throwaway4good]

I think that is missing the point a bit; regardless of how healthy a lifestyle you live you still will end up suffering from some kind of disability. Perhaps of a cause completely outside your control (stroke, heart problem, accident).

Not to say that strength training isn't good for you of course. But it may not actually prepare you for things to come (unlike having a healthy family life, an identity outside work and physical fitness).

[maccard]

Its not a binary thing. On my dad's side, there is a history of hip issues, sciatica, upper back and shoulder mobility issues.

One of his siblings is in his early 60's, retired, and can only be described as "active". He's not powerlifting or anything like that but gym, cycling, gardening, every day or other day. He's on his second hip, soon to be third.

His other sibling is late 50's, also on their second hip about to get their third. They're limited to 2-300 yards of walking, can't really stand unaided for long periods of time, struggle with their sleep, etc etc.

The easiest comparison is that the older one is, and always has been more active. Sure it's complicated, sure you can't prepare for an unexpected diagnosis, but I'd you're 60 with no active health scares, your quality of life is going to be dictated by how much you looked after yourself, not just luck.

[quickthrower2]

You do reduce the probability of an issue though. And increase the chance you can help others.

[nextlevelwizard]

>I think that is missing the point a bit

same right back at you.

just because at some point you might (or I guess you and the author are arguing will) get injured doesn't mean strengthening yourself is invalid. in fact healthier and in better shape you are the less likely you are to suffer debilitating injury.

tweaking my strong knee that is used to squatting heavy weights and otherwise supporting active lifting is way different than my father tweaking he's knee with artificial joint.

at least for me the problem is lettings things get worse. I should learn to seek help/corrective action right away, but I always just want to "see if I can ride it out" which can then turn into months of unnecessary suffering with long lasting issues. pre-emptively starting resistance training is very beneficial for most people.

[madeofpalk]

Strengthening yourself is beside the point. I don't think anyone is saying that that strength training is invalid. You're trying to debate a point that no one is disagreeing with.

Lifting weights isn't going to do much to prevent your hearing going bad, or eyes degrading and needing corrective lenses, or not being able to move otherwise you'll wake the newly born baby who's finally gotten to sleep.

This article is a rebuttal against the myth that "accessibility" is for "other people", that "disabled" and "abled" are two different camps, and accessibility tech is only something used by completely blind people in wheelchairs, which will never happen to me. We're all just temporarily abled. Even throughout the day we go through a range of ability with our physical body - even if it's just needing to respond to a phone while cooking and your hands are covered in raw chicken.

[nextlevelwizard]

"We all die" yes, yes, but you can die gracefully or pitifully.

Lifting weights won't help you with your eyes or ears, but being in better physical health translates to better mental health, which translates to better ability to cope with all limitations.

People who just sit still as they age deteriorate incredibly fast in more ways than one.

I guess this article can be eye opening for anyone who has lived in a bubble without them, their relatives, or friends suffering from any issues, but that has to be exceedingly rare.

You can prepare for injuries. You can strengthen your body and joints to prevent physical injuries, you can keep active mind to prevent mental issues, you can wear PPE to protect from most sudden sight and hearing losses. You should wear gloves while handling raw meats, it is more hygienic and makes cleaning a lot faster and more pleasant.

[paulcole]

I think you’re still missing the point.

Eating a good meal today doesn’t prevent you from going hungry 6 months from now.

Of course you know how to put food in your mouth and eat, but do you understand how to deal with the physical/emotional/mental challenges of living as a person who’s without enough food?

[satvikpendem]

> Eating a good meal today doesn’t prevent you from going hungry 6 months from now.

Sure it does. Angus Barbieri fasted for 382 days successfully.

In the same vein, working on one's body strengthens future potential disabilities, but not all, such as sight and hearing. However, most people who become disabled later in life begin to have orthopedic injuries rather than completely losing sight and hearing, which of course they lose but not to the same extent as getting arthritis etc. So the point of strengthening one's body is still valid.

[paulcole]

I’m assuming you didn’t read the article at all and just wanted to show how you knew this fact about the guy who fasted for a year?

[satvikpendem]

I read the article. And guess what, I also injured a limb recently so not only have I read the article, I have and currently am experiencing the same issues the author is experiencing. Even still, I can recognize that the points made in the article and the points made by those you're replying to are not incompatible, so they're not "still missing the point," they're adding on to it.

[nextlevelwizard]

>Of course you know how to put food in your mouth and eat, but do you understand how to deal with the physical/emotional/mental challenges of living as a person who’s without enough food?

I think we are so far ideologically from each other that we can't even communicate. I can not follow this logic at all.

[JeremyNT]

This is advice HN tends to trot out periodically, but I find it off-topic at best here.

The point of this blog post is to elicit empathy, something often lacking in healthy people who cannot envision themselves suffering from some ailment. Eventually everybody's bodies and minds will fail. Whatever specific mitigation strategies you deploy will eventually become ineffectual and your capabilities will degrade, either by means of age or disease or accident or all three.

We can and should do more to make things better for people who have differing levels of physical and mental capabilities because it is the right thing to do, but if that isn't enough, we should also do it out of our own self interest.

I'd suggest that bringing out "just get strong with these easy steps" as a response to a person who suffered an injury is particularly missing the point.

[iamphilrae]

I 100% agree. You mention some pretty scary KG numbers there though (but we’ll done)! I just wanted to mention to readers that even squatting a ‘measly’ 50KG or deadlifting 30KG can immensely help with back pain and the physical challenges everyday life throws at you.

[nwiswell]

> You mention some pretty scary KG numbers there

> I just wanted to mention to readers that even squatting a ‘measly’ 50KG or deadlifting 30KG

Yes -- this is really important to contextualize.

Barbell resistance training is actually two things:

1) A method of exercise that has a variety of well-quantified health benefits including improvements in strength, bone density, and connective tissue. More muscle also means you can eat more without getting fat.

2) A competitive strength sport (generally called powerlifting; weightlifting usually refers to the explosive overhead lifts seen at the Olympics).

Your strength goals can, and should, depend entirely on your objectives. If you're aiming to compete, a 150KG squat and 200KG deadlift would put you around the median in the lowest male weight classes.

If you just want to get in shape, it's overkill.

[mise_en_place]

It's also relative to your body weight. A 150 kg squat for someone who weighs 118 kg (i.e. me) is not that impressive. Whereas an 80 kg squat if you weigh 80 kg is extremely impressive. You should be aiming to lift 1x-1.5x your body weight, over time.

[dmurray]

I don't get it, 1x bodyweight is impressive for a smaller person?

[omnimus]

Yeah i thought if you look at the top performers it actually gets harder if you are heavy to keep with lighter performers in terms of multiplier. The lighter performers win the multiplier game.

But maybe its different if you look at amateurs.

[adrianN]

Most males of normal weight should be able to achieve a bodyweight squat after a couple of months of training.

[pjc50]

As someone who came very late to this from an unfit childhood: annoyingly, they're right. I started lifting at _40_, and after a couple of years I can deadlift 100kg vs my own weight of 90kg. All the tables of "expected" lifting values are laughably high and clearly compiled on enthusiastic 20 year olds. But it's been very helpful for my energy levels and to balance against my sedentary job.

For me, bearing in mind all this injury discussion, I've focused on form 100%. When doing free weight exercises, this forces a whole bunch of other, secondary, "stabilization" muscles to some work. It's those, especially if they end up spending all day "locked" because of your posture, which can produce a lot of the minor pains of age, so give them a workout.

[Tenoke]

These numbers seem off? Everywhere I look online even the numbers for untrained men are higher than that. I just came back to the gym, am the weakest person there, slightly weaker than 'untrained' numbers on the internet and I can do more.

0. https://www.strengthlog.com/deadlift-strength-standards-kg/

[safety1st]

That link lists the averages among the 21,000 users of StrengthLog. I'm sure the average normal human who doesn't use a weight training logging app is way lower.

For example the beginner on there is 76kg. I think it'd be a bad idea for a guy who's 40 years old, untrained and out of shape to rock up and deadlift 50kg, even just for one rep. He wouldn't know what to expect, he'd get the form wrong, he'd probably hurt his back. People who aren't trained should start with the bar, sometimes they're better off starting with even less than the bar and that is fine!

[Tenoke]

I believe beginner here is not untrained. There were a few links with different categories (all above the 30kg deadlift, 50kg squat for the lowest one). I only shared the first one in my comment.

30kg DL is 5kg on each side of a 20kg bar which is less than I've lifted my very first time and I was pretty unfit and I'm sure the vast majority of untrained people can lift that. Hell, that's easier than bar-only bench press, which most people can also easily do on their first try.

[safety1st]

I am not clear on what conclusions we are discussing exactly.

* 20kg-30kg makes sense for an untrained person's first lift, it sounds like we agree. With DL you need some plates on the bar to get the right height so 5kg bumper plates or something is common.

* All of this is still way below the numbers even for beginners on the site you linked, which again I stress, is a self-selected group of people who were hardcore enough to opt into a performance tracking app of some kind, this is way different from the general population.

* I actually don't agree that the vast majority of people could just bust out, let's say, 10 reps at 30kg of any lift. Women and older men who have never lifted? I really doubt it. A year ago it was hard for me to do 10 body weight squats, no bar no nothing, and most of my middle aged friends who have never exercised are probably still in the same boat. 40% of the US is obese... I think this perspective is biased basically towards young men (lets say under 40).

[cnity]

Numbers are really personal. At 60kg I found it really easy to get strong enough to deadlift even 120kg, cited as between intermediate and advanced on that table, despite in no way being an even intermediate lifter. More like novice at best.

[mrob]

Relative difficulty of different lifts also varies. I found squats and deadlifts extremely difficult, to the point that I reached 1x bodyweight bench press before 1x bodyweight squat.

[kerkeslager]

As usual, Hacker News presents the anti-human take in the top few most upvoted comments. Although this is an unusually subtle one.

I say this as a guy who still works a Starting-Strength-based program. Power lifting is great--it changed my life. But it's NOT a solution to disability and it's NOT a foolproof prevention. The implication that "if people just got off their asses and did some exercise they wouldn't be disabled!" is disgusting.

[nwiswell]

This is an extremely cynical take. (As usual, Hacker News!)

> The implication that "if people just got off their asses and did some exercise they wouldn't be disabled!" is disgusting.

I don't know how you got that implication. It seems like you agree that lifting is great. Many people don't do resistance exercise. The article itself is about the process of aging, and resistance exercise helps as a prophylactic. We all understand it's not a solution to all disability. But if it turns some people on to lifting, then net-net there's less disability in the world.

Great! What's the problem? (While we're talking about implications, your comment does seem to imply you haven't read the linked article.)

[kerkeslager]

> The article itself is about the process of aging, and resistance exercise helps as a prophylactic.

Aging is relevant to the author's case of disability because they mention that they " tried something that, looking back now, maybe [they're] too old for". But a lot of disability has nothing to do with age.

I think the point of bringing up age is that a lot of able people are selfish and assume that disability is someone else's problem, when in fact, the vast majority of people will become disabled in their lifetimes.

Do you really not see how bringing up a way to prevent disability (which is at best, a small-percentage probablistic solution) sounds like an attempt to refute that point?

> But if it turns some people on to lifting, then net-net there's less disability in the world.

Sure, and that would be a good thing. But you've gotta understand that in every conversation about disability, many people's only contribution to the conversation is to talk about how people could be less disabled, with almost no non-disabled people willing to engage with actually accommodating disability.

It's at best extremely condescending, as if people who are disabled aren't trying their best to not be disabled. There are exceptions, of course, but even in those cases, I tend toward more compassion because there's likely underlying mental illness going on there.

Fundamentally, there just isn't a massive societal problem with people not doing enough to not become disabled. The problem is we don't do enough to accommodate disability. Constantly bringing up ways we can avoid being disabled is insensitive and distracts from the real problems and real solutions.

At a more basic level: stop trying to present your solutions to a problem you don't have, and listen more to people who have the problem. This is particularly true if your "solution" is to arrogantly tell people how to not have the problem.

[zmmmmm]

A similar vein but muuuuch simpler for anybody who isn't up for weights.

Each day, before anything else:

1. 3 mins stretching

2. 20 (real) situps (3 mins)

3. 10 pushups (2 mins)

I actually usually do a good bit more exercise more than this, but this is my minimum day starting routine, no matter where I am, or what I'm doing. It takes less than 10 minutes and keeps a bare minimum of strength in your lower back and arms. The lower back part is key for people who work in chairs all day. You can do a lot of types of exercise and still not maintain those lower back muscles which are so key to ensure your lumbar is protected.

[lloeki]

Got 5min? Try this, it's much more complete*, engaging the back a lot.

Title is a catchy "burn belly fat" but it's more like core training + cardio. It looks scary but anyone (without a precluding condition) can do it.

It's only HIIT if you make it so, the key is to pace yourself according to your level, going slow if needed so as to complete each of the 30s.

If you can't do the full range, do a partial range, but do that range with proper form so as not to hurt yourself, don't force through it, it'll get better over time.

Aim for consistency, not short term record.

Side note: lubricate joints before (do rotations and flexing), stretch after exercise: stretching before increases risk of injury. If you really want to stretch before, do dynamic stretching, not static.

* doing only sit-ups and push-ups strengthens frontside massively, so front-back is not balanced, further increasing the forward arching position (starting with nerd neck) induced by long term sitting. Front training is important for all-day sitters as these muscles (which should be engaged all along the day but are not) atrophy, but overtraining front (vs back) amplifies the issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlantbhXp4Y

[Gud]

A small amount of exercise each day will do wonders for your overall fitness, especially when starting out.

You don’t need to hit the gym for an hour to feel the results. Like parent poster is doing, body weight exercises are terrific.

I would also like to say that planks are an extremely effective exercise.

[ehnto]

As someone who was not born 100% able, I have been lifting for 10+ years and I attribute my ongoing robustness to it. I wouldn't be doing half the stuff I do without strength conditioning providing such a robust foundation.

Injury defence is a benefit of lifting that is undersold I think. By strengthening all the muscles that support your movement, and limbering up connective tissues you are much less likely to get injured in general life like you said.

[satvikpendem]

Starting Strength is not recommended anymore: https://web.archive.org/web/20200528135350/https://thefitnes...

[safety1st]

Your comment is being downvoted because it's low quality. It's basically a drive-by hit on SS with no context.

I will upvote it and add some context.

* thefitness.wiki is maintained by Reddit's r/fitness and it's a great resource.

* Parent had to use an archive.org link because thefitness.wiki long ago removed the post he linked to.

* I suspect they removed the post because thefitness.wiki now has a 'Basic Beginner Routine' which is similar to Starting Strength, and tells you this is what you should start with. https://thefitness.wiki/routines/r-fitness-basic-beginner-ro...

* I've done both BBR and SS. I prefer BBR but they're both fine places to start. They both basically have you cycle through the staple compound lifts and if you're not already trained this is the best thing you can do for your body. The health benefits of simply doing each compound lift at least once a week plus eating a ton of protein cannot be overstated, they are life changing.

* I'll editorialize here but I feel both BBR and SS are designed for younger, fitter, more hardcore "beginners" than me, especially SS. I was a 40+, out of shape desk jockey and the cadence at which they want you to increase weight was too much for me. Also with these big lifts you NEED to get the technique right or you WILL hurt yourself.

[grudg3]

What would you recommend to someone older to start with? I've done SS in my late 20s but I do feel like I'd like to try something new as I get closer to 40 and considering some exercise. Context, I wfh, am overweight and extremely sedentary. At the moment have been purely working on my diet but exercising is next.

[jaggederest]

Honestly you should start again with starting strength or a beginner program like it if you haven't been actively training in the last few years. Go slow, start with the bar, let the increases happen until you hit a wall where you need to reassess. Listen to your body. Once you're back to "intermediate", i.e. 6 months to a year of reasonably consistent training, you can transition to a different program or just maintain at 2x a week if you like where you've ended up.

That's in addition to very gradually adding some sort of cardio like walks around the block. Being sedentary is going to be more of a struggle to overcome than strength - you will find that the strength you used to have will come back quickly when you start training again, but as a guy in the exact same boat, the cardiovascular side is the tough part. I am getting strong again really quickly but I am getting winded half way through a strength workout, let alone actually trying to jog.

[safety1st]

https://thefitness.wiki/routines/r-fitness-basic-beginner-ro... worked great for me despite being 40+, overweight and sedentary for the prior 14 years.

I wouldn't recommend any changes to it, other than taking it easy if you need to.

The biggest struggle I had when I was totally out of shape was just how tough even a light workout was. It's fine to take it easy and not increase the weights you're lifting aggressively, for instance. Or even to go to the gym twice a week instead of three times. If it's not an easy and fun part of your life you'll fall off the wagon.

Basically you can be a physical wreck at 40, to a degree that a 23 year old guy can't even comprehend. All simply because you didn't exercise.

Just keep showing up regularly, doing the compound lifts SAFELY but heavy enough to tire out your muscles, and eating your protein (100g+ daily, there are formulas to calculate it precisely).

It might take a little longer for us older sedentary guys but everything will come together.

A good personal trainer (or physical therapist if you start hitting issues?) is absolutely worth it if you can get one, one advantage we older guys have is we're more likely to have the spare cash for this.

[dogman144]

For my job, I was fit and strong until 28, COVID gym closures and a career change later into wfh tech I was 31 and out of shape and verging on unpleasantly so. I was worried if I could get back into shape easily, but did the below. Only hard part was the discipline tbh, as I started at very low weights/just the bar in some cases.

If you’re familiar with SS, what worked for me was a modified version. I threw out the linear progression and squat 3x times a week goals, and focused on lifting 3x a week come hell or high water and hit 5+ increases if I was able. 30-60 days of that, you’re back at an easy point to decide to get “really fit” or just stay active.

Day 1: squat 3x5, DL 3x10, lunges (the second week, DL 1x5, squat 3x10)

Day 2: bench 3x5, press 3x10, push-ups (swap bench and press same as above week 2)

Day 3: row 3x5, pull-ups, arms/w-e else.

I’m nowhere near when I was strong but my numbers make Me feel ok about things now, as I know I’m now out of the dangerzone of out of shape AF

[rip_netrunner]

Read Barbell Prescription by Andy Baker. It's specifically written for 40+ year old lifters.

[refurb]

Recommended by who? Redditors?

I read the critique. It's basically "you don't do enough volume for certain exercises", "you'll end up doing too many squatting and looking funny", "their approach to stall isn't optimal".

It sounds like a www.bodybuilding.com forum rant. Someone arguing why micronized whey is superior to non-micronized. It's ultra-optimization.

If you're someone looking to get started, you're looking to get started, not optimize for a bodybuilding competition. If you like SS, and it gets you actually lifting, then it's good.

If you really get into it, then great! You can continue to refine what you do, read up on all the arguments, try different things. But if you just want a workout that makes you stronger that you can keep doing, then SS works fine.

It reminds me a bit of audio enthusiasts. Somebody wants an amplifier recommendation for a certain budget and people jump in telling them "you'll regret going solid state, the purity of tube amps can't be beat" and the person is like "I just want an amplifier so my kids can watch Disney in surround sound".

And the really good thing about SS is the focus on proper technique. It's more important than how much you lift.

[cheald]

Starting Strength is fine for a beginner. It's not an optimal program, but it's simple, easy to understand, and built on good foundational principles. As an on-ramp into resistance training, it's better than a complex program that'll scare beginners off or burn them out.

[satvikpendem]

This is directly addressed on that page too:

https://web.archive.org/web/20200528135350/https://thefitnes...

As well as in the section above it.

[cheald]

It still doesn't change the fact that a suboptimal program which keeps beginners engaged and moving forward is infinitely superior to a more complex one that they fall off of.

[anigbrowl]

This is survivor bias; SS keeps some beginners engaged but there's no count of those who drop off or never start it. I was in the latter group; it was the first program recommended to me, but I was leery of it because I don't have medical insurance and was skeptical about the feasibility of the suggestions based on what I knew about my own body, so I just did nothing about it. When I did start lifting, I started out with light weights and spent months figuring out a program while getting a kinetic understanding of the different muscle groups and how they worked together, spamming volume for a while and gradually adding more weight.

I don't mean that SS is a bad program, it works for lots of people and it's very accessible. But I also think it's way oversold and not magic.

[cheald]

It's definitely not magic, but it's on the 80 side of the 80/20 split, IMO.

It isn't the right starter program for everyone, but then, nothing is. The best program for the beginner is whichever one keeps you consistently showing up and moving forward.

[satvikpendem]

It does actually. The program is so poor that beginners might not even see enough progress that they're put off from working out, because "what's the point if I've been at it for a month or three and still don't have any gains?" That's why it's better to actually pick a good program, one that shows consistent gains as motivation rather than plateauing as a demotivational force.

Other recommended programs like 5/3/1 are not "more complex," that's a false dichotomy. They're just as simple but with different sets of exercises.

[cheald]

This is a very silly argument to be made against a lifting program which has verifiably moved countless people off the couch and into resistance training. The reason people recommend Starting Strength is because it's what successfully got them into lifting.

I train 5/3/1 now, I have for years, I love it, and I absolutely do not recommend it to beginners. I've tried. Their eyes glaze over when you start talking about "training maxes" and "periodization". They get confused and lose whatever sliver of motivation they had. Save the optimization for when they're bought in. Any beginner is gonna make progress on essentially any structured program just due to neuroadaptation. Premature optimization is the root of all evil.

[dogman144]

Have you even done SS or read the book, actually end to end?

Comparing 5/3/1 or a reddit post to SS indicates a complete lack of familiarity.

You can use dismissive like survivorship bias all you’d like, but end do the day Rip knows and runs a tier 1 program to get in life shape. It’s very difficult to read SS and execute it as designed and not come to that conclusion.

[lm28469]

Still better than starting Netflix and burger+fries 5x5

[satvikpendem]

Sure, but at that point even going for a run is better than Netflix and burgers. Don't strawman the argument, just because SS is ostensibly better doesn't mean it's actually good.

[tayo42]

This is just some wiki related to reddit?

I know reddit loves 5/3/1 and pretends that nothing else exists. Great example of the reddit echo chamber for something that isn't a political topic.

5x5 program got my bench to 275 when I was younger. I think it's fine.

Really after years of trying all these systems the only that will work for sure is getting in the gym consistently and lifting heavy. Everything else is mostly a distraction. Like min/maxing in wow

[satvikpendem]

They recommend many routines, not just 5/3/1: https://thefitness.wiki/routines/strength-training-muscle-bu...

[tayo42]

Are you just regurgitating reddit advice or have you gone through this and advised gym goers with success?

The nice thing about lifting is results speak for them self. If your going to keep posting this link as solid advice, maybe share your lifts...

[onion2k]

It's rare to see a 'no true Scotsman', an 'appeal to authority' , and a 'do you even lift bro?' in one comment.

[tough]

Such an internet gem

[satvikpendem]

Yes I have gone through these, started with SS, saw basically no progress, then moved to 5/3/1 and did some other routines over the past several years. At my peak before a recent injury I was at 225 bench, 325 deadlifting and 275 squat.

[JimtheCoder]

"At my peak before a recent injury I was at 225 bench, 325 deadlifting and 275 squat."

So you barely lift...?

[tastysandwich]

Sorry, as advised by "The Fitness Wiki" ?

Starting Strength remains the absolute best way for a novice to gain general-purpose strength.

[satvikpendem]

It is part of r/Fitness, a very reputable resource for fitness as many top weightlifters are there too. The article addresses why it's not a good program and why beginner programs are generally not well designed: https://web.archive.org/web/20200528135350/https://thefitnes...

[ycombinete]

There's a "Where can I read some comments on Reddit about this?" section for clarifications:

https://web.archive.org/web/20200528135350/https://thefitnes...

[renewiltord]

Ultimately, while I never reached the 200 kg / 440 lb he mentions on the deadlift I got to: (in lbs)

Back Squat 275 2 rm

Front Squat 225 2 rm

Deadlift 375 2 rm

Bench 175 5x5

OHP 135 5x5

C&J 125 1x5

Snatch 105 1x5

With my primary program being SS and then SS like (do the set 5x5 or appropriate at the work weight, advance by appropriate increment). That's the rough master plan at least.

Not advising. Merely sharing my experience. Simplicity of adherence maximized adherence. Visible progress increased adherence.

[gloryjulio]

Just add sledgehammer workout to the routine. It's the foundation of all combat sports. You have your core strength, upper body strength, arm strength well trained.

And it's infinitely fun to hit stuff

[moonchrome]

Arguments there are bullshit - talking about stuff that's completely irrelevant to beginners to make things sound complicated - personal fitness trainer playbook.

If you're a couch potato dev who sits all day and does no physical activity - just doing random shit with your bodyweight or empty bar will get you sore for the first month.

Overloading yourself with pointless movements that are meant to target specific muscle groups is completely irrelevant for the first year. Go to gym - find heavy stuff you can pick up - try not to do anything stupid.

SS is great because it has a low number of movements, volume is irrelevant when you get sore from a barbell squat, learning how to lift is deceptively complicated (breathing/bracing/muscle activation).

The article keeps straw-manning "longterm" this and that - SS is your first year in the gym (or less). By the time you're trough with it, unless you're totally oblivious, you'll pick up on other stuff when you have the time. And you'll have a decent intuition of how to lift, understand recovery implications, consistency in training, and a decent base strength. It's a great base to get you started and have an achievable progression framework that doesn't require much tutoring or time.

I've seen plenty of people get from 0 to nice lifting strength in ~1 year by doing SS. The only thing that's relevant is consistency - if you come in 2-3x a week and do something difficult for an hour for a year - you will see results - it can be total fucking around - you will still get results. It's good to start with SS type exercises because those well defined movements target your entire body, and if you learn to execute them correctly you reduce your chance of injury.

TL;DR - for any newbie out there that's in bad shape and looking to start gym - save yourself time and avoid "optimal muscle development" crowd. None of those arguments apply to you and are completely irrelevant. Don't trust me ? Go to the gym and do 5x5 with an empty bar and see if you're sore after the workout.

[nathias]

I wouldn't trust anything on reddit...

[satvikpendem]

I would. For example, /r/AskHistorians is extremely high quality. Don't mistake a forum for all of its users as one monolith.

[Paul-Craft]

I think they are referring to fitness-related advice on Reddit, but, yes, there are a number of quite high quality subreddits out there among the not so great ones.

[refurb]

AskHistorians is a bunch of PhDs doing quality write-ups with full referencing.

You can't compare that to r/fitness in the least.

[nathias]

do you have a phd in history to judge that? I said I wouldn't trust, I'm sure there is some good resources but they are mixed with bad ones, I just know that r/philosophy is a terrible resource for anyone studying philosophy

[quickthrower2]

I am doing weight training for fatigue. The idea is 55%, 65%, 75%, 85% weeks. The % is perceived effort. That might be bench pressing just the bar sometimes. And I go twice a week, and do about 7 different exercises. It is not "perfect" but it is f'ing consistent. Knowing there is a 55% week coming up, and it is OK and that it is perceived effort so you can lower weights if you feel shit, makes this very stick-to-able.

[WA]

Yeah, about that: I started with a solid bodyweight fitness regime and after 10 good workouts over 4 weeks, two of my finger hurt to the point of feeling like they're damaged and the palm of my hand feels overtrained and constantly tense or something. Gives me pain with every pushup.

So, "it's really that easy" actually causes pain that I also feel when I hold a cup of tea.

I'm not saying that one shouldn't start lifting weights, but no matter what you do, you can be (temporarily) disabled for any reason, which is precisely what the article is about.

[coffeebeqn]

I always get wrist pain from push ups also so I had to stop doing them

[vekker]

I really enjoyed the Starting Strength program (I was going to abbreviate it at first, but then realized that sounds a bit sketchy out of context), and I noticed the benefits too. The only reason I quit a few years ago is because of my concerns about the strain it puts on the cardiovascular system. Especially for someone already doing mostly desk work, I wonder how healthy it really is.

I still do resistance training, but with higher reps and less weight. Not incrementally increasing the weight as SS prescribes.

[angrais]

Why do you have this concern? Did you notice any changes in breathing or such?

[vekker]

A family history of high blood pressure and pretty much any doctor I've spoken to advising against strength training with heavy weights.

[stavros]

On the flip side, I did SS in my twenties (15 years ago) and, while doing a deadlift, my back popped and started hurting. I've had back pain since.

I wouldn't recommend deadlifts. The worst part about it is that everyone always says "you didn't have proper form!" but, in that case, if you can follow all the advice in the program and still have bad form, it just sounds like a way to dismiss injuries as "your fault, not the program's".

[cyrialize]

I'm personally a fan of the Greyskull Linear Progression or GSLP. I'm pretty much a fan of any LP since if you stick with it you get a ton of strength gains.

It's essentially: Day A: - Squat 2x5, 1x5 AMRAP - OHP / Bench (Alternate) 2x5, 1x5 AMRAP

Day B: - Deadlift, 1x5 AMRAP - OHP / Bench (Alternate) 2x5, 1x5 AMRAP

So you are only squatting twice a week and deadlifting once a week, versus SS with squats everyday.

A typically schedule following M-W-F for two weeks could look like the following: M: Squat & Bench W: Deadlift & OHP F: Squat & Bench

M: Squat & OHP W: Deadlift & Bench F: Squat & OHP

I highly recommend purchasing 1.25 plates so that you can increase weights by 2.5 pounds versus 5. I did this for bench and OHP and that was when I really started seeing gains!

AMRAP stands for as many reps as possible and works as a good metric for moving up a weight or staying at a weight. If you do 5 at the end, you may want to stay. If you do 10 or more, you can double the weight increase.

The other cool part of AMRAP is that you now have another metric besides weight - you can try to break previous rep records, especially if you deload and are working your way back up to previous working weights.

At the end of the day, sticking with any LP would be good. I just like GSLP since I'm not squatting every day.

All that being said, I started off with SS and that was what got me to a 315 pound squat.

Doing GSLP is what got me to 220.5 bench and a 135 OHP (all for reps)! I think the tiny incremental plate (1.25 plates) and AMRAP sets are what helped me the most.

[5d41402abc4b]

My knee pain gets worse when i squat. How old are you?

[cheald]

I'm 40, I've had two knee surgeries, and have genetically terrible knees. Squatting incorrectly made them hurt, but I went to see a sports PT and he taught me how to squat correctly (I was overloading my quads and not using my posterior chain like...at all - a proper low-bar squat with the glutes engaged was a total gamechanger), and not only did it fix my knee pain in squats, it fixed my knee pain in general. I went from being functionally crippled in my 20s to competing as an amateur powerlifter and training Brazilian jiujitsu in my late 30s, and I absolutely attribute the foundation of that to squatting and deadlifting.

In my personal experience, as a now more seasoned lifter, most people have knee pain in squats because they load the quads and arrest the squat early with the quads rather than hitting full depth. Once your hip crease is below the top of your kneecap, your quads are no longer bearing the load! If you're stopping the lift prior to that, then you're applying a ton of torque to the knee directly with the quad, rather than letting the much more robust posterior chain absorb the energy of the descent.

If you haven't tried squatting low-bar, you might give it a go - it makes it much easier to move with the posterior chain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs_Ej32IYgo is my single favorite squat video on the internet. Lots of really good info in it.

But, if you don't see improvement, I highly recommend seeing someone who can diagnose and correct how you move.

[tastysandwich]

How are you squatting? Technique is really important. I recommend watching some videos by Mark Rippetoe [1], and also filming your squats to review them. The low-bar back squat is a hip-dominant exercise, and when done properly should not put undue stress on the knees. [2]

I myself had _terrible_ knee pain from squatting. Then my knee started randomly buckling when I would walk.

So I started filming myself. I also used TUBOW [3] to figure out that my knees were drifting far too forward. I corrected my technique accordingly, and started engaging the hips properly. My knee pain went away and I've been pain-free ever since.

  - [1] Learn to Squat, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhoikoUEI8U
  - [2] Squats and Your Knees, https://startingstrength.com/article/squats-and-your-knees
  - [3] Using the TUBOW with Mark Rippetoe, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P_w6dpDC2I

[lookboil]

What sort of range of motion are you using? Obviously consulting a physio/exercise physiologist may be helpful, but you may have less pain if you squat to just below parallel. Or other squat variants may be better for you, e.g. front squats (or zombie squats), box squats. Slant board squats are also very good. You could also look at pin squats as it deloads the weight from your body at a very precise depth so no risk of going too deep with the weight and causing pain

Check out "knees over toes guy", he has a wealth of good free information on knee recovery.

I'm 30 and I squat pain free twice per week despite 3 knee dislocations. Good luck friend

[elric]

There might be several reasons for this, poor technique and insufficient time for adaptation are probably the most common ones. Though previous injury is certainly another possibility. In general, squats are good for your knees, and will protect your knees from injury. Not only will they strengthen the structures of and around the knees, they will also (literally) lubricate the joints.

It takes time to develop a good squat. Many people seem to be limited by their range of motion, especially in the ankles, at least to start off with.

[hollerith]

I'm 63 and have to stay completely away from cheese or the arthritis in my left knee gets so bad I cannot operate the clutch in an manual-transmission car without doing what feels like permanent damage to the knee.

I used Starting Strength to learn how to squat roughly 12 years ago, do squats regularly and have never injured myself even temporarily doing squats although I use much less weight than grandparent does.

[rebuilder]

Knee pain can be from a variety of causes, some of which have to do with the actual joint and some of which don't. For example, medial knee pain can be, to name two options, an MCL tear or just an inflammation of the bursal sac. I had the latter when getting back into exercise after a long break (I'm now 40), and was really worried I had busted my knees. In the end, switching to front squats for a bit and working on mobility as well as paying attention to posture when lifting helped with it.

Point being, if you don't know what's causing your knee pain, it's probably a good idea to figure it out first, then think about what could help.

[Yodel0914]

I'm in my early 40s and have been squatting for ~20yrs. I've just started to notice a bit of a twinge in my knees when squatting, particularly if I'm getting close to my 1RM. Knee straps seem to alleviate it, though I'm not particularly keen on using them. I think I likely need to work a bit more on stability and flexibility, both of which are diminishing faster than raw strength.

[devoutsalsa]

This is why god invented physical therapists! Had minor knee pain a couple years ago, saw doctor for X-rays just as sanity check, and he referred me to a physical therapist. Got a knee strengthening routine, followed it, and all was good after a month or two.

[cosmojg]

My knee pain improves when I squat. For context, my legs are different lengths, and I've had a left medial meniscectomy in the shorter leg. I'm in my late twenties, and the pain is bilateral.

[silisili]

Same. Can't even squat my own body weight without my knees wanting to explode.

I do think weight training is important, but with physical limitations...

[bratbag]

I had the same. In my late 30's even kneeling hurt.

That goes away once the muscles gain strength.

I've had a personal trainer for years now and in my early 40s I can squat merrily with no pain. Also my neck and back pain have vanished, along with headaches I used to get that would start around the back of my neck and move over my head.

Strength training really is amazing. My only regret is 20 years as an adult not doing it.

My wife taking every excuse to touch my leg muscles is just an added bonus!

[silisili]

How did you strengthen them in that scenario? We may be a little different as I've had surgery in both knees(ACL and MCL). I'm interested in doing leg work, but physically can't squat...at least yet.

[cheald]

I started by holding onto a stair bannister and squatting slooowly until I could actually get the full range of motion, then unsupported air squats, then I moved to an empty barbell. If you can't go straight to a barbell, or you have back/spine issues, belt squats are a great way to increase your workload as your capacity increases.

With those surgeries, starting under the supervision of a PT is a great idea, though. They'll know how to build you up safely.

[bratbag]

I started off with a light slam ball provided by my trainer. No squats in sight for the first few months!

Over the shoulder throws and ball slams were my leg exercises for a long time.

Edit: the main thing was having a good pt who was aware of my injuries. They could tell me when to stop and when to push.

[endisneigh]

Though I agree with your point, I would advise against this. Instead I would advise someone to master body weight exercises. Pull ups, push ups, hand stands, etc.

Master motor control, balance and ability to control your own weight. The problem with lifting is no matter how good your form is, injuries are inevitable and made worse due to the extra resistance.

[mlrtime]

Giving advice to people starting out to try and master hand stands is not a good idea.

Other body weight exercises like push-ups are a great supplement though.

If there are no weights involved, I'd recommend people just do yoga instead, but leave hand stands out for a long time.

[endisneigh]

Why? They’re not that difficult, especially if someone is there to assistance or you have a wall. It’s also a yoga position.

Now obviously I wouldn’t start out with hand stands since you need to be in pretty good shape (like a pull up you probably can’t do it unless you’re in decent shape anyways).

It’s certainly safer than having literally hundreds of pounds above your neck.

[mlrtime]

Because it has become a new fad and people jump into it without understanding the risks, which lead to injury.

I spent a very long time training for hand stands (pressing up) , it is an advanced skill.

In Ashtanga yoga it is considered an advanced level which some yogis may never achieve.

[jabroni_salad]

My dad did a lot of bodybuilding, and martial arts, and swam miles a week too. Just loved physical activity.

Last year he slipped a disk putting gas in his car. Backs are really arbitrary and you can do a lot to finesse the dice, but you're still gonna roll snake eyes on something.

[philjohn]

Keeping strength up, especially in old age, is crucial.

My father was admitted to hospital for something, and spent a few weeks on the ward. When he was released he was super frail and had to use a walker. Losing strength is easy, getting it back (especially in your 80's) is damn hard.

[bradley13]

Absolutely right, although I cannot lift the amounts you list. For me, weight lifting has nothing to do with "power lifting"..

I have a weight-machine and a few barbells in my house, and use them 2-3 times a week, sometimes more, sometimes less. I am older, I have no six-pack, I am not particularly muscular. It's not about that. It's about keeping what you have, and keeping what you have reasonably fit.

Muscles support your joints. Weight training also strengthens the ligaments and tendons that hold everything together. If you do it as "circuit training" (only a few seconds between different exercises), it also serves as cardiovascular exercise. All of this is important for everyone, especially as you get older...

[koonsolo]

Alternatively you could do bodyweigth training if you prefer that (like me)

1. Pull: such as pullup

2. Push: towards one arm one leg pushup

3. Legs: Pistol up (=1 leg squat)

4. Core: V-ups and bridge works for me.

Once we went carting with the company. Everybody was sore afterwards in all kinds of places (software devs :)). I was fine.

[fdgjgbdfhgb]

If you are a beginner and want to start with calisthenics, I recommend the Hybrid Routine[1]. It has really nice progressions for all exercised mentioned above (and it's free!)

[1] https://www.hybridcalisthenics.com/routine

[quickthrower2]

1,2,3 are intermediate level though. After a year I cam do 6 reps of 1, 0 reps of 2, probably 15 of 3 and 90s bridge. But a sedate person might enjoy a gym better or TRX maybe to assist as these are hard for average Joe.

[trashface]

You have to be pretty abled already to even start a basic lifting program. I have a nerve impingement in my neck/shoulder, if I even lift 10lb dumbbells over my head a few times, my left arm literally goes numb.

[11235813213455]

This looks good for power, less for endurance (like hike/bike uphill), for a computer job we also need endurance, not big muscles, so I walk, sometimes run, climb trees and rocks, (forage figs), squat for hours (static), and surely no added weight. In short I think selling your car, and using your legs daily as much as possible is what's best

[wouldbecouldbe]

For normal people, please lift, it's amazing, but just don't go too heavy, especially with squats & dead lifts. The risk is too high.

Get to squat 150kg is highly likely to cause back injuries for a vast majority of the people.

Whereas lifting 50% of max reps with higher reps will get you similar benefits, in most cases even more muscle growth, without the high risk of injuries.

[raverbashing]

SS is just one of many "starter programs", though I don't get why people like the dogmatic approach, or putting labels onto things

> awkwardly leaning over your lawn mower to grab a 20KG bag of concrete is pretty easy.

True. Still, don't do it (or, I mean, do it the proper way)

[layer8]

This becomes much more difficult once you already have injuries though.

[chadcmulligan]

Core strength is great, pilates does the same with less effort though.