Amazon rescinding the offer while I am on the notice period

[YuryVladkov]

A few days ago, just before the Christmas, Amazon HR called me to inform that my offer is rescinded. The start date was Jan 2, 2023. As a gift, they will pay me a months salary.

I already resigned from my current post after obtaining the work visa for the new location on November 30th. I asked their affirmation before resigning.

Right now, I cannot relocate and my current visa became void since I resigned. I also cancelled my rent agreement. In a month, I will be on streets, without a job and visa.

In every step I tried to behave ethically and high trust. Guess I did wrong. Are all places like this?

Ps: sorry, I forgot to add. the new location was Canada. My current location is in EU.

Ps2: some background about me:

Amazon offer was for Sde2. I have 5 yoe. I have worked in several projects spanning from embedded software for airplanes to scalable cloud based data heavy backend applications.

Java/C++98 were the primary stack.

I had turned down an offer from Meta to join Amazon. I think my system design and general ds&a ability is okay. I am a good team player and perform well in friendly environment.

[tyingq]

Rescinding an offer that's tied to a visa is just extra shitty, sorry this happened to you. Surely they know the consequences that you'll suffer. I wonder if the Amazon leadership chain that collectively decided to do this has any remorse.

Edit: Feels like something that governments should tie to individual company's ability to use the visa program. Rescind a visa-tied offer (for no-fault-of-applicant reason), and we yank your right to use the program.

[np-]

No, you are purely a number to them, it is very unlikely anyone cares or even is mildly interested in the full scope of the damage they’re causing. I have worked with companies like this, if you try to push them from the “guilt” angle they usually double down about how this is collectively the best solution (carefully omitting that what they mean is it’s the best solution for their personal ambitions and wallets)

[Kim_Bruning]

I would agree. I think the political reason this doesn't happen is because the victims aren't voters in the relevant area. Not even necessarily in the most cynical sense. How many people will have researched upfront who the relevant representatives are at their destination, let alone how to reach them?

I keep thinking one might want to have some sort of international organization where people in each country reciprocally lobby for better international workers rights for each other's citizens.

Maybe something like this already exists, but I haven't heard of anything like it?

[vikingerik]

On that last, beware the law of unintended consequence: that penalty would serve as a deterrent against making offers to visa users in the first place, if the company had no route out of it once offered.

It's the same idea as European worker protection employment laws compared to the US: they sound good, but the effect is that companies have to be slower to hire when firing is that much harder.

[mafuy]

> that penalty would serve as a deterrent against making offers to visa users

It would put the additional costs they create to be visible. This is as it should be, since visa users do cost more than hiring domestic.

However, it would not be much more. And if amazon deems it to be too expensive, then other companies which are more efficient can take up the spare visa users, just as the free market intends.

[chonkerz]

They should pay a penalty if they do this to someone domestically too. It's shitty.

[mafuy]

Shitty, yes. But it goes (slightly) beyond the area that I would deem to be indubitable.

[temporary22]

> but the effect is that companies have to be slower to hire when firing is that much harder.

Which is good. Nobody wants a work environment that changes every five minutes.

[parasense]

> the effect is that companies have to be slower to hire when firing is that much harder.

Sounds like EU labor policy causes a set of effects resulting in a kind of equilibrium, perhaps a Nash Equilibrium.

[mmanciop]

Remorse? Are you kidding? Some likely get a long-forgotten tingle out of it ;-)

[iLoveOncall]

So what's the better option? Laying off someone already employed instead?

It's not extra shitty, it's just as shitty as any other situation. It sucks for the person involved but the alternatives are not better.

At least someone that got their offer rescinded can sue for promissory estoppel.

[tyingq]

A company uses the visa program typically under the reasoning "we need this kind of worker so bad that we can't hire locally". So, if they are rescinding an offer, it's hard to support the original premise.

Also, "extra shitty" seems obvious to me. You're not only not hired, you likely have to leave the country. The company rescinding the offer knows this.

[iLoveOncall]

Hum, no, the reasoning is "there are no suitable workers locally", which is very similar but still different.

The fact that you rescinded an offer doesn't mean that suddenly local people are suitable, it just means this position isn't needed anymore.

[tyingq]

That's how it's written on paper, yes. The actual experience varies. "This route is cheaper" is common.

[prng2021]

The better option would have been to hire him. How is that not obvious?

Amazon as a multi-national, multi-billion dollar company can absorb the expense of employing him. I’m the worst case, they can lay off an existing low performing employee to compensate.

[parasense]

> Amazon as a multi-national, multi-billion dollar company can absorb the expense of employing him.

That is a very charitable opinion. The idea that because a company is large enough, or profitable enough, that it therefore should be compelled to hire indefinitely, or never shrink in size.

Let me ask, is it your opinion that economies only ever grow forward, that companies in the economy never shrink?

[YuryVladkov]

I was reading an interview of Warren Buffet saying that integrity is an important value for a business to succeed. Why are we talking about hiring indefinitely? They made a contract and based on that I made some commitments. How does this case look like hiring forever?

[mijamo]

You can downsize without firing anyone.

[prometheon1]

I don’t think that not rescinding an already made offer and “hiring indefinitely” are the same thing

[iLoveOncall]

There are already tens of thousands of people that are being laid off in Amazon. The low-performers will go anyway, but clearly it seems like it's not enough.

Training new employees is not a worthwhile investment if you are in the situation where you're already firing thousands.

[prng2021]

As I said, in the worst case, they can always find someone else to lay off.

There are countless other ways they can compensate for the cost of hiring him. A couple quick examples are delaying promoting and giving a raise to some people, or removing another open position they were looking to hire.

The result of not just sucking it it up and doing the right thing here, which was to actually hire him as promised, is 1) a terrible public image affecting future ability to hire talent when people are weighing Amazon vs CompanyX, and 2) increased chance that future new hires will read about this kind of bs behavior and not think twice about accepting an Amazon job offer and then rescinding their promise to start employment, at the very last moment.

[benj111]

If they need to lay off people, why are they advertising for, recruiting and offering jobs to people?

If they can't do simple things like not hiring people they don't need, maybe they should employ this guy as HR manager.

[iLoveOncall]

Because conditions 6-9 months ago when the job posting was put online weren't the same as conditions today?

I moved countries within Amazon and it took 3 months, for an external applicant the bare minimum will be 4-6 months.

[phpisthebest]

Markets and business economics do not change that fast where there should be a need to rescind offers in a properly managed company. Amazon clearly has major management problems.

[inezk]

It's Amazon, it's not a startup.

[powerbroker]

That is something that works under U.S. law. I wonder if such a remedy is available if tried in a Canadian court. Any Canadian attorneys out there.

[iLoveOncall]

There are equivalent laws in most developed countries.

[retinaros]

well at least the person employed has amazon on the resume and years of experience at amazon. this guy might have no name companies before amazon and abandoned a confortable position for the opportunity at amazon. id rather have 3 year at amazon on my resume while looking for a new job in this challenging time. especially in europe

[woodruffw]

Perhaps it's not a zero-sum game, and nobody needs to be immediately laid off.

[iLoveOncall]

Thousands have already been in November and more are planned in Q1. Rescinding offers is honestly awful but it's by far the best solution if they want to reduce head count.

[CommieBobDole]

I swear, if Amazon was kidnapping people off the street and grinding them up to use the slurry as machine coolant, there would be people in threads like this saying, "Well, they could use water, but it's 25% less efficient which would increase costs, and at their scale those costs would be larger than the value of the lives of the people they're grinding up, so I see where they're coming from."

[BXLE_1-1-BitIs1]

You need a wrongful dismissal lawyer in the Canadian province you would have been working in. Canada has had a number of successful "wrongful hiring" lawsuits where the prospective employer has had to pay up.

Likely you would win an amount equivalent to the severance you would be eligible for from your previous employer plus additional expenses for relocation.

A letter from a wrongful dismissal lawyer will likely open the window to a better deal without having to file a lawsuit as companies don't like to see their name dragged in the mud with this kind of lawsuit.

[benj111]

>Likely you would win an amount equivalent to the severance you would be eligible for from your previous employer plus additional expenses for relocation

I wouldn't be hopeful about this. Speaking from the UK, we have wrongful dismissal that's basically a breach of contract, so you're basically eligible for the notice period, which is 2 weeks, although I think it takes a week to kick in.

You could perhaps sue for other losses due to breach of contract but it wouldn't be wrongful dismissal and it would be a major departure from the British way of doing things.

However most British employment law protections stem from eu law. Wrongful dismissal is kind of a holdover at this point so it's possible Canadian law is now very different, despite being from the same root.

[BXLE_1-1-BitIs1]

Canadian wrongful dismissal law is quite different. It's not so much the statutes as the precedents that have been developed in a number of court rulings. If you have followed the Business section of any Canadian newspaper, you would be well aware of employment law rulings in Canadian courts.

I suspect Amazon HR has assumed that they can get away in Canada with what they do in the US.

They may be about to be taught an expensive lesson.

[squiffsquiff]

> basically eligible for the notice period, which is 2 weeks

That depends on the contract. 2 weeks might be typical for a US contract but it can certainly vary.

> You could perhaps sue for other losses due to breach of contract but it wouldn't be wrongful dismissal and it would be a major departure from the British way of doing things.

I'm sorry I don't know where you get this idea of 'the British way of doing things' I've lived here my whole life and I've never heard this. Regardless, it doesn't constitute an argument. Consequential loss is absolutely a thing.

[BXLE_1-1-BitIs1]

Yuri, After reading about your visa situation, a wrongful dismissal lawyer can claim for the extra expenses because of your visa situation including returning to home country, temporary accommodation, possibly being forced off employment market for an extended time until your visa situation is sorted out, extra travel etc.

Wrongful dismissal law (precedents) requires you to make reasonable effort to mitigate damages;so keep up your job search.

Remember that once you have a new job offer, any delay in beginning employment while waiting for a new visa can be claimed against Amazon.

[ekanes]

> once you have a new job offer, any delay in beginning employment while waiting for a new visa can be claimed against Amazon

If this is the case, I wonder if it implies that you can pursue an equivalent job IN CANADA, with Amazon paying for anything lost in the process...

[patrec]

> As a gift, they will pay me a months salary.

Have you got a signed contract? In which case them paying you is not a "gift" but something you are most likely legally entitled to, and you should find out how much they are required to pay you first of all. You can probably get a decent idea by a bit of googling, and if it looks like you are entitled to a good bit more than the one month they offered you, you should seek out an employment lawyer asap. If the law is on your side and you are lawyered up, hopefully it won't be necessary to sue them.

> In every step I tried to behave ethically and high trust.

Never trust faceless magacorps, especially not ones with a long documented pattern of screwing over their employees (and everyone else) without a second thought and right when they are going through mass lay-offs. Working for bigtech can be a great idea compensation and career wise, but never lose sight of the fact that to them you are just a replaceable cog whatever the in-house brain-washing department will try to tell you. Also, try to understand how critical the team you are hired into is to the company's current revenue streams, especially if the economy looks like it does now.

I would also suggest putting some contact details in your HN profile, maybe someone will reach out who can help (either with advice or, if you are really lucky and happen to have the right skills and tell people here about them, potentially even a visa-sponsorship; one difficulty is that you are on a short time frame and typically only larger companies will offer visa sponsorships unless you have some particular key skills).

> Are all places like this?

No, but you should be prepared to get screwed over at startups or small to medium companies as well. For faceless megacorps reading up on (ex-)employee experiences on forums like HN and glassdoor etc. is a good idea. For small companies being a good judge of character and talking to the CEO or similar as part of the interview helps.

[chevman]

I know a few folks relatively high up in Amazon HR/TA/People Ops type roles and the scale at which they operate recruiting is nuts. Mainly driven by the insane need for people in the ops/fulfillment/delivery areas, but corp roles are also similar.

They typically make more offers than roles they have available, as they have fairly good analytics around what % of offers will not be filled post acceptance (ie someone simply never shows up for day 1 of work).

Now, fast forward to today, and as you've heard in the press, and from Amazon directly, they are slowing hiring and may even do cuts in the new year. I think what you're seeing is in some areas they may be over running offers, and need to pull back and kill some post acceptance to correct based on the new reality of hiring forecasts.

Still sucks and is a shitty situation.

[phpisthebest]

While I understand this mentally it is still unethical to offer multiple people the job where by they start taking life changing steps where the employer knows full well they have extended multiple offers simply because "maybe one of them will not show up"

I have experience a few times new employee's not showing up on day 1. I would NEVER even consider extended multiple offers to people just to ensure one of them shows up. That is more than just "shitty" as you say.

[lkschubert8]

It's unethical because of the downside asymmetry of the two scenarios. In one someone has made significant life changes and left guaranteed income. On the opposite side a business entity won't be able to best optimize profits.

[NeverFade]

If you can prove that the offer letter was issued in bad faith, for example the employer issued 2 offer letters for 1 position (hence one of the letters was issued for a job that doesn't exist) then I suspect you may have a legal case.

2022 exposed the fact that in the US, with its at-will employer, offer letters never offered much of a protection if they were offered in good faith, and then rescinded.

[billjings]

> I think what you're seeing is in some areas they may be over running offers, and need to pull back and kill some post acceptance to correct based on the new reality of hiring forecasts.

There are times when you read something that conveys real depth of knowledge, sharp execution, and competence, but a complete lack of consideration for whether the thing done was right to do in the first place.

It does suck and it is a shitty situation, and it is probably a good idea to keep that framing in mind, as there is no recourse against a company the size of Amazon behaving like this towards someone without much power and influence.

But let's not lose sight of the fact that this is was an unethical action to take. If your forecasts include some risk, and your potential hires are taking that risk on (as H1Bs, no less), don't lie to them and tell them it's safe to quit their previous job when it's not.

[benj111]

Well if I turn up for a flight that's full, I get compensated, it is currently illegal in my country to ring people up and not connect them with someone. If I sign a contract to buy something in the future, I am expected to buy that thing.

If Amazon are doing this, they should be paying the full cost of their error, which is more than a month's salary.

[canadianfella]

That’s terrible and it looks like you’re trying to justify this.

[mmoustafa]

Very sorry to hear. The good news is there’s plenty of options to secure your immigration status while figuring out next steps.

USCIS released (somewhat relaxed) guidance on the current environment for non-citizen workers. You can find a list here https://twitter.com/debarghya_das/status/1605392365325205506...

In summary, all the “gray zone” escape hatches like the 2 month grace period or the B-2 status change are considered “in the clear” per this guidance.

[zszugyi]

OP's offer was in Canada and is currently in the EU, I don't think any of the USCIS policies apply to them.

[YuryVladkov]

Sorry it is my bad that I was not being clear and forgot to add the location. Thanks for all the helps tho.

[ulfw]

Completely irrelevant to him going to Canada. Not everyone is going to the US.

[YuryVladkov]

It is my bad to add that it is about Canada. I am sorry.

[arealaccount]

This happened to me a few years ago, although I did not have to worry about the visa part.

My previous job was more than happy to take me back. It felt gross, but nonetheless I went back. Turned out to be a good bet for them as I remembered and felt indebted to them.

It may work to try to contact your previous employer. In a purely rational context they should take you back and it’s a win for them.

[vertis]

Hi YuryVladkov, This really sucks. There is lots of advice but one piece of advice worth mentioning is that you can freelance (e.g. Estonian or other EU company) and then you can use visa free days and live like a digital nomad.

Depending on your origin country a lot of countries have visa free travel. In the EU you can stay indefinitely by going in and out of the schengen zone. Using Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria, Albania, Macedonia, Ireland and Cyprus as places to spend time. And then the rest of the 90 in 180 days inside Schengen.

This might not work for you if you don't have visa free travel, but it's worth mentioning anyway. In the mean time you can sort things out and apply for other jobs.

So long as you stay clear of the major world cities (e.g. Berlin, Munich, Paris) airbnb and equivalent can be quite affordable for monthly stays. For example Sofia is quite a nice city and has quite affordable accommodation and coworking.

I'm happy to answer more questions if you want. My contact details are on my profile (prefer telegram).

[extasia]

Note that Croatia is joining schengen in 2023.

[jpiasetz]

I saw this on Reddit yesterday so hopefully you were the op there as well. The advice there was all talk to a lawyer which you should do.

Either: 1) they are incorrect following the law or 2) they are correctly following the law And nobody can tell with 100% certainty either without going to court because law isn’t deterministic.

If it is 1 Amazon could be either: a) incompetently not considering your situation individually and will roll over when it gets escalated b) maliciously offer low and intending to fight it

Both Canada and EU have strong labour laws so probably worth fighting it even if you lose the 1 month

[thatguymike]

Reach back out to Meta. They're not offended that you turned down their offer, they understand that situations change, and they very well might still want to hire you.

[YuryVladkov]

They laid off recently and I could not find any E4 job posting

[ta988]

Really sorry to hear that. This is a reminder that you should never work for Amazon if you need a visa. Sadly your story is not the first one I heard. The most recent, a friend of mine was promised they would support her visa application after one year working there (which is really simple and cheap for them) and now they say it is against their rules.

[CoastalCoder]

I'm curious if there will ever be an inflection point where Amazon's reputation is so bad that they just can't hire the workers they want, even with competitive total comp.

My intuition is that there will always be enough people who are too desperate, or uninformed, to steer clear. I hope I'm wrong.

[YuryVladkov]

I would 4x my TC and be an immigrant in Canada which has a very established permanent residency system. I knew about the PiP system, but I had no idea that they could rescind the offer like this. I have turned some other offers down to accept Amazon’s, and they left me like this

[solardev]

I wouldn't work for them if they offered me a million a year. Everything I've heard about them suggests they are unethical and have zero concern for their cattle.

But I'm not in the OP'S situation.

[schmidp]

We are in the EU and are looking for Java/Kotlin Devs in case you want to send over your CV (openresearch.com).

[keneda7]

In my experience if the company is amazons size yes it is like that. Smaller family run companies treat their employees/prospective employees much better in my experience. It is not always the case but I from my direct experience it has been. I am so sorry this has happened to you.

[phpisthebest]

I somewhat agree, but I have had bad experiences at micro companies as well (companies under 75 employees)

My experience the sweet spot is privately held corporations above 200 employees below 1000-2000 employees. Privately held is a key part, all publicly traded companies suck IMO

[jordanbeiber]

Can confirm. I have spent some time trying all kinds, and below 2k, not public and preferably founder and majority shareholder as CEO is just perfect.

You have to focus on actual value, and empire-building is kept to a minimum.

[YuryVladkov]

I could not find any tech company like this. all these silicon valley startups just focus on IPO and getting a huge return from stock market.

[dangoor]

I think a lot of it depends on management, their views, and what they prioritize. I, too, have had really good experiences at orgs between 150 and 850 employees, but that may partly be due to not having been there during "belt tightening" times.

I've also had some good experiences at bigger companies, but the issues tend to be different.

[bentlegen]

176 points, 100 comments in 1 hour … downvoted by HN mods and off the front page immediately.

As a point of feedback, when mods get so obviously involved in suppressing content seemingly-valued by the community it would be nice to understand the motivation behind that.

[hodgesrm]

How do you know it's downvoted by HN mods?

[bentlegen]

Do you have an alternative explanation? It was #2 when I first viewed this thread (with far less points and comments), and a few minutes later it was off the front page entirely.

But this question is exactly why I would like illumination. The mods could respond to my post and explain.

[YuryVladkov]

I am also surprised about that. I hope that is not the case.

[birdymcbird]

i can’t offer a solution to your problem but here is another point of view.

consider it a blessing for your long term mental health. companies like amazon will bring you to Canada or US on a work visa and literally pound you. the cut throat culture brings out most toxic behavior in individuals. your going to be in competition at amazon of people from different cultures. sounds great on paper but different cultures and backgrounds have taught people especially from developing world to naturally react and minimize their own risk exposure in a particular way. endless political battles at middle management levels and teammates throwing each other under bus or refusing to cooperate in case the “other” person gets credit.

moving to a country on a work visa sponsored by amazon is not a good idea.

[YuryVladkov]

Will try to shift my mental mod like this, thanks

[jimlongton]

Is your current post already filled? I'm in the EU and filling positions left by people resigning has taken months. Talk to your old manager and HR. They might be more desperate than they appear.

[TedDoesntTalk]

Staying at a job that you resigned from is not a good idea, unless it’s very short term. For many reasons.

[vertis]

No that's just not true. I left a company years ago on good terms to join a (semi established) startup. 9 months later it turned out to be a real shitshow. I talked to one of the senior managers at my former company and they gave me a really great job offer. More senior than previous and with a pay rise above the bump I'd gotten going to the startup.

Stayed with that company for another 4 years (7.5 in total). It'll vary based on a lot of factors. Very few employers would begrudge someone going for a huge pay rise FAANG opportunity, and the fact that they got the role means they're good material.

As always it's going to depend on a huge number of factors. It doesn't have to be negative though.

[TedDoesntTalk]

Your story is different. You left for a significant time then returned. That’s not what OP is talking about.

[vertis]

One of the great things about humans is the ability to take one experience and abstract it to gain knowledge about others. In this case I was implying (as was my sibling comment) that resigning isn't necessarily impossible to undo.

Highly depends on their behaviour and value to the company and colleagues. If they're valuable and well liked it could be an option.

[jimlongton]

I have not found that to be true, maybe due to company culture. Both my manager and our best engineer left my current company and returned, one after 2 years and the other have just 3 months. Both have been subsequently promoted.

Our industry is not small but we all know people in rival companies (semi-conductor, EU) and a lot of management have left to work for competitors at one point and returned. Unless you work for a seriously petty manager or an unprofessional family size company that holds grudges, leaving and returning should not be a big deal.

[TedDoesntTalk]

Leaving for a some years then returning is definitely not the same thing we’re talking about.

[jemmyw]

That depends a lot on why you left and your relationship with the company/manager. A sensible manager will know that any employee could move on at any time, therefore it's not unreasonable to take someone back whose circumstances have changed. They're still going to provide higher immediate value than a new hire, and I don't know that they'd even have a higher risk of leaving, again depends on the existing relationship.

[ryandrake]

I used to think this but I’ve seen many “returning engineers” and companies love them because they already know the company-specific jargon and tooling, can navigate the internal systems and processes, and generally come up to speed faster. OP is already up to speed because he just left.

I only know one major US tech company with an explicit “do not rehire” policy (unless you are someone exceptional) and you probably don’t want to work there, no matter how shiny the brand is.

[benj111]

Depends why you left.

If you left on good terms, because you wanted to develop your career and your employer understood that. Jobs for life aren't a thing anymore, no one can seriously expect their employees to faithfully remain loyal until they get made redundant.

Hell it could even be good as it shows that the op is serious about moving up.

Now you could be right, but the op still has options to get out in that eventuality anyway.

[skullone]

Ah man. I'm sorry. But, you made it to Amazon, you will be wanted for another opportunity real quick I bet!

[rat9988]

Not in the current market no.

[YuryVladkov]

I am from a 3rd world country. I was kind of believing in the notion of “pursuit of happiness”. I studied hard worked hard to make it into a FAANG so that I can live a decent life in a developed country and support my family and parents. Now it appears that I have risked the livelihood of my family for my stupid ambitions.

[patrec]

Your ambitions are not stupid but perfectly sensible and laudable. Unless there is something you didn't tell us you just have been really unlucky. So although your current situation sucks and must be very stressful, try not to lose heart and keep a cool head even if it's very difficult. If there is a signed contract, you have some legal avenues open to you and there are probably also quite a few people here on HN who would like to help you if they can. Finally unless you already tried that, it's also possible that either your last employer or one of the places that you rejected would still be willing to take you on if you explain to them what happened. And even if lost your apartment, you might be able to afford staying in youth hostels or similar for a while whilst you sort out your next steps.

[obynio]

Happened to me as well, I got a visa and an offer to work in Japan. I resigned from my current company, send the leave notice for my apartment, started packing and was supposed to fly there a month later. Omicron appeared a few weeks later, Japan sealed their borders, canceled all pending visa. No exception. But Japanese nationals were still allowed to travel freely anywhere and get working visa for Europe (of course).

Luckily my previous job accepted to cancel the resignation and I managed to keep my apartment since I had a very good relation with my landlord. But I still hold a nasty grunge to the Japanese government for that dick move.

When I finally made it 18 months later, I got randomly interviewed at the airport and talked about this covid management shit show, the lack of reciprocity between JP and EU, their government's inability to take any sensible action in a whole year... Even the interviewer was embarrassed. Needless to say, the interview was never broadcasted.

Don't get me wrong, the Japanese are wonderful people and there is a lot to love about them, their culture and their language. But they're governed by (very) old and incompetent politicians that rules the country like we're in 1980 and never cease to amaze me by their inaction and lack of innovation.

[YuryVladkov]

feels just bad.. sigh. It is good that you could recover yourself. I am waiting for holiday season to end so that I can talk with my old company. They already sent me exit interview etc so I am skeptical if it can be reversible

[abc_lisper]

I’m very sorry about this. You should look for another job. But make stink about this - write a letter to local congressman, senators and newspapers. It’s ok to hire and fire at will, but it should be not ok for Amazon to do this. A months pay is a spit in the face- they could have let you known upfront; it’s not like recession happened last night. You shouldn’t suffer for their mistake.

[CoastalCoder]

I think U.S. expats (still citizens but living abroad) have largely found that their U.S. representatives aren't interested in their problems.

I've heard this in relation to banking (FATCA), and perhaps also regarding non-reciprocity of driving licenses.

So I'm guessing they'd be even less interested in the plight of a non-voter.

[danaris]

> It’s ok to hire and fire at will, but it should be not ok for Amazon to do this.

I mean, this seems to be self-contradictory.

"We don't want to have rules around hiring and firing! We just want companies to be good!"

If there are no rules against particular abuses of labor, large, unethical companies will commit those abuses, especially if it makes things more convenient for them or someone can argue that it saves 0.03¢.

It should not be considered to be OK to hire and fire at will.

[jmyeet]

This is the advice I'd give to anyone, particularly in this market: don't resign until you physically start your new job. Particularly when the new job is in a different country, even if your contract requires you to give a certain period of notice, it really doesn't matter. So in your case I would've started with Amazon in January and then resigned.

A lot now depends on what country you are in, what visa you are on and what other visa you may qualify for. You may qualify for a temporary Schengen visa. That buys 90 days at least. The country you're in may cover cases like this. You should probably speak to an immigration lawyer in that country.

There's not really anything you can do about Amazon Canada rescinding your offer. It sucks but don't waste energy on it. Just move on.

[ghaff]

Maybe it's a higher bar to lay off a brand new employee than to rescind an offer letter. But I don't think that's a given. It still may be good advice in the current climate though.

[rmk]

I'm sorry to hear that. Are you a refugee? Why do you say you will be on the streets? I hope you can figure out a temporary work situation to keep you housed, clothed and fed while you figure out what's next. I hope you can conserve the money you will receive and use it wisely, considering it's going to be a substantial amount of money and can see you through the winter perhaps.

It is very discouraging to be caught out in a bad market, and by an unscrupulous employer such as Amazon, but I hope you take some time to step back and enjoy Christmas. Companies often cut with no second thought, especially during recessions, but this is pretty capricious even by corporate standards. Best of luck.

[YuryVladkov]

I am from a 3rd world country. Currently I am working in Europe with a work visa. When I become unemployed, my visa becomes void and I will be deported. I already told my landlord that I was gonna leave the house in early Jan. They found a new tenant. Now, I need to go back to my home country and find a house and a job there.

[gbear0]

Has anyone tried to add special clauses to their initial contract along the lines of: "If the offer is rescinded before the start date, the applicant will be awarded 3 months salary. If the applicant is fired within 3 months of the start date, the applicant will be awarded relocation fees to previous location." And you'd update that based on costs of moving, or possibly the state of the economy and your risk tolerance. If they don't agree to that, then they clearly aren't serious about hiring you, and you dodge a bullet.

This would hopefully reduce cases where they hand out multiple offers for a single job, or at least compensate applicants due to a change from management.

[phpisthebest]

I really think there needs to be a rework of contract law when it comes to idea of that is permissible and what is considered an unconscionable contract

For example, most relocation agreements I have seen have a stipulation where by if the employee quits with in a year or 6mos or some defined time period the employee must pay back any relocation costs incurred by the company. There however is no reverse stipulation. That should make the contract unconscionable.

[joshka]

I suspect that contract / tort law would cover this situation already in many jurisdictions. There's a contract to hire the OP and I'm guessing that contract didn't have language about rescinding the contract (my Amazon contract did not), only about being an employmee-at-will. Such a clause would probably allow an employer to fire the person once they are hired, but likely wouldn't let them get out of a contract to hire the person first. If I were the OP I would talk to a lawyer and get them to negotiate payment of all actual damages rather than the 1 month pay offer on the basis that this is possibly either fraud or breach of contract. I am not a lawyer, but I LARP as one sometimes.

[scarface74]

Unless you are a special snowflake with a unique skillset, why would a company the size of Amazon ever veer from their standard contract?

[Kim_Bruning]

I've negotiated with some very large companies at times.

No one can operate a company as a single giant monolith. They're all subdivided into departments or subcompanies or subunits in some way or other. And these subunits often have more or less leeway and authority to act by themselves (depending on the exact organization).

My favorite story is when the manager across from me happened to have signing authority for the relevant subunit. So he just grabbed a sheet of A4 out of the printer, scribbled down what we agreed upon, put his signature under it, and handed it to his secretary "Please file this in Kim's file". Didn't even blink. <5 minutes. Legally binding written contract.

Another time I made a cultural mistake, I actually gave a Very Large customer my best offer upfront (negotiating as a small company owner this time). I should have tacked on 20% or so, just to give the manager something to negotiate over. Lesson learned: Big company managers aren't just able to negotiate; some actually almost feel cheated if you don't give them anything to negotiate over! ;-)

[scarface74]

Now, I could negotiate to an extent with a smaller company where I would be a “special snowflake”. If they were looking for someone with my combination of skills.

But the company changing events I did at the smaller company I worked at from 2018-2029, gets me an attaboy for adding 5% to my divisions revenue, a message on our Slack channel and life goes on.

[gbear0]

Why are they hiring people that need a visa and need to relocate across the world?

The ask for compensation for getting dropped before the start date should usually be an easy one for a company to accept since that shouldn't be normal operating procedures. Otherwise, they're aware that they're explicitly screwing over people and aren't serious about hiring. Now we're back at my earlier claim, and you dodged a bullet.

You don't need to be special, but you definitely shouldn't think of yourself as a cog in the machine. If you do think of yourself as a cog, or this is an offer you can't refuse, then you've already given up your bargaining power, and you are willing to accept this.

[scarface74]

You are a cog in the machine with a company that has over a 1 and a half million employees.

Andy Jassy is my skip x 7 manager and he doesn’t know me from Adam. I doubt my skip x 3 manager would know me if he ran into on the street.

How much bargaining power do you think you really have? If any of us got hit by a bus, they would have an open req out before our body’s were in the ground and only be remembered when our name came up during a git blame.

[deodar]

I am sorry to hear that Yury. The timing especially is unfortunate heading into the Christmas holidays.

I suggest talking to an EU immigration lawyer at the earliest about your options to continue living in the EU while you look for new employment. You can do a quick phone consultation (in the US it costs about $75 for a 20 minute consultation with a lawyer, I hope something similar exists in your EU country).

From my own experience, there is no substitute for talking to a lawyer because they can give clear and crisp answers about your options.

Good luck and I hope you are able to overcome this hurdle.

[scarface74]

Just a general rant:

It didn’t become apparent to me how much this environment sucks for people here on H1B until I asked on HN why would anyone put up with the shit show that Twitter has become and they said a large contingent may be H1B holders.

My general advice to always have a “go to hell fund” is null and void if no matter how much money you have in the bank, you only have a limited amount of time to get another job.

[behringer]

Sorry. Amazon is not a place anybody should work for.

[ishyfishyy]

Could you potentially explain your situation to Meta and see if they can get your offer back, even if it's for another team?

[hcks]

These kind of stories really puts in perspective the whole “woah we software engineers at FAANG are so privileged”.

[Relighted]

#damagecontrol. Check out the amzn offers in EU asap, you were hired and that's status @amzn as long as the recruiter has any kind of hart they will get you on the table of eu recruiters. Good luck. Thare the exact positions urls to them you have a strong belief you fit.

[ranman]

The amazon recruiters are some of the most idiotic humans you'll ever meet. At least in NAMER. When I was hiring at AWS I would actively try to avoid the candidate talking to the recruiter too much because the recruiter would frequently say things that were entirely false.

[whinvik]

I think your best option right now is to ask your previous employer if they will have you back.

What type of visa did you have. If you had a Blue Card, you are typically allowed 3 months to find another job. Maybe HN can help find you another one quickly.

[sjoerger]

November 31st doesn’t exist.

[YuryVladkov]

Sorry, made a typo.

[tosc]

Man that is so horrible. Not all places are like that. Unfortunately it tends to be smaller places that are more trustworthy. I suggest that at very least you may need a good immigration attorney.

[NeverFade]

"Smaller places are more trustworthy" is not true at all. They have their own set of issues.

[pieix]

I'd phrase it this way: at a smaller company, you are much more likely to be treated as a human, by a human, versus being treated as a unit by a system at a bigger company.

[passwordoops]

100%.

Family companies are the worst in my first- and second-hand experience. Blood runs thicker than water, and outsiders are often reminded of that fact come promotion/major decision time

[hcks]

But all places are like that in fact. The best you can hope for are that they respect the law.

If you didn’t experience it yourself it’s solely due to a mix of luck, never being at places that struggled and being hard to replace, that’s it.

[NeverFade]

> The best you can hope for are that they respect the law

Offer letters never provided much of a legal protection. We just treated them as if they did.

Amazon et al wouldn't rescind them by their thousands this year if that created a strong legal case against them.

[SkyLemon]

Given this is in Canada, we have decent labor laws, not as good as the UK, but much better then the US. With that said, go talk to a lawyer, note free ones will alway tell you they can get more.

[mardifoufs]

In which way are labor laws better in Canada than in the US? especially for work visa holders?

[qaq]

"Are all places like this?" Well most of EU is not like this...

[marvin]

Salaries are half though, so it's not all roses.

[hnlmorg]

Not when you factor in the cost of living. Just house prices alone are drastically lower than in Silicon Valley.

[qaq]

Not all jobs in US are in SV, Also in tech hubs like Dublin the prices are getting there

[hnlmorg]

But the jobs outside of Silicon Valley will generally pay less too (unless you happen to be in another tech hub, but expect the cost of living to be greater there too).

So you’re literally making the same point :)

[qaq]

While they pay less (not always) they pay better than EU one's plus taxes are lower in US.

[phpisthebest]

House prices in like 90% of the US is also drastically lower than in Silicon Valley.

[hnlmorg]

But so are the local wages in IT.

Which is the point that I’m making. There is a general correlation* between wages and cost of living.

* please note that I’m making a generalisation about a correlation and not saying that the relationship is precisely even across all geographic locations nor domains within IT.

[qaq]

Very true there is no free lunch

[Kiro]

Is Canada more like the US or the EU in this regard?

[citia19]

Hi OP, could you please share which org in amazon were you planning to join? Cuz I was told by my manager that 2 ppl from EU will join our team in Vancouver shortly… and we are a new team…

[YuryVladkov]

I think there are dozens of people like me.

[citia19]

I’m really sorry op, I hope you could find a job in Canada soon

[spac]

With the visibility of this post I would make sure to link or highlight your skills so others can help. Best of luck, I'm sorry this happened to you. It sucks.

[Ocha]

I don’t understand why would someone trust Amazon or think to work there at all. Do people just don’t believe that it’s not a good company to work at?

[BonoboIO]

This is just unethical of Amazon, but we are talking about Amazon.

They don't care shit about people. Sorry, but it is true.

I feel very sorry for you Yury.

[Ancalagon]

Y’all, stop accepting offers from Amazon. We’ve been shown time and time again they don’t care about their employees

[YuryVladkov]

True, I am paying for my mistakes with a huge cost

[hamilyon2]

Please send your resume to my email.

[YuryVladkov]

Sorry I could not see your email

[hamilyon2]

Sorry, my bad, I put it into description now

[shyn3]

Wow. Sorry man. Head high. You got this!

We need a list of companies who act this way and boycott their products.

[passwordoops]

It's probably easier to compile a list of companies who don't act this way at this moment

[walkhour]

Products produced by enslaved children are not boycotted, don't get your hopes too high.

[shyn3]

This is so true.

[satya71]

Sorry to hear this. Hopefully you find something new soon.

[fnbr]

Contact Meta, they might still want to hire you.

[GoOnThenDoTell]

Sue them for damages

[tehlike]

What country is this? US? Is it 30 days or 60 days?

[YuryVladkov]

Its in EU. 60 days to be exact, but accounting the new hear headcount calculations etc and all interview stages, it would be so hard for me

[faangiq]

Amazon Prime will rename to Amazon PIP in 2023.

[asdev]

Sadly, it should say that employment is at-will on both sides(employer and employee). Everyone is on eggshells in this job market. Hope you find something else.

[zht]

Did you have to repost this from blind?

[YuryVladkov]

Do you know how many people are affected? The info session regarding with work visas had more than 300 people attending. And lets say I did. what is wrong to post this from blind

[chrisgd]

Go scorched earth. Email Bezos, Jaffy, etc. tell them the situation and ask for additional compensation.

[Firmwarrior]

I don't think that's going to accomplish more than this HN post on Christmas, honestly

Jassy knows how easy it is for engineers who passed the Amazon bar to find new jobs. He's going to think "Welcome to The Jungle, kid" and move on

If you ask me. OP dodged a bullet here. Amazon has turned into a toxic swamp

[NeverFade]

You're writing this as if Bezos / Jaffy or anyone at their level is even going to read some random person's angry email.

[vertis]

I've gotten a reply from Bezos (or more likely an EA) before, it happens.

Sidenote: EAs are just as good. Having been on the end of an EA to a CEO telling me to fix something I can tell you it's not a place you want to be. They can, in a limited way, invoke CEO power.

It's never a sure thing but it doesn't hurt to try either.

Also Werner Vogels once popped into a hacker news thread I posted about my AWS account having leaked keys and a bill run up by a "hacker" (this was before it was common)[0][1].

[0]: https://vertis.io/2013/12/16/unauthorised-litecoin-mining/

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6911908

[YuryVladkov]

The funny thing is one of their LPs is this:

Strive to be Earth’s Best Employer Leaders work every day to create a safer, more productive, higher performing, more diverse, and more just work environment. They lead with empathy, have fun at work, and make it easy for others to have fun.

Hey Amazon, I am having no fun!

[chrisgd]

Bezos read my email as a prime member. Think the chances of this getting you blackballed from work is low and the upside is there. Nothing left to lose in my opinion

[hikingsimulator]

Sadly, that's the US for you. The corporate world can be a horror show and sympathetic HR is an oxymoron.

I hope you can get yourself out of this bind.

Still try to enjoy your Christmas if possible.

[phpisthebest]

Showing once again that the Anti-American bias is in full swing this story has nothing to do with the US at all, and the US immigration system is not all that much different than other nations, it is just in the news more because the load on the US system is 100x more than other nations

[hikingsimulator]

It's my bad assuming the USA, but it's a fair assumption. USA and Canada have very similar labour systems -- as I said in my other response. The worker treatment in NA is very much different it seems.

In Western Europe, if a contract has been signed, it's very hard for an employer to do what OP suffered through.

[phpisthebest]

it is different yes, the implication is "worse" which is very much open to debate.

[loloquwowndueo]

He did say Canada.

[hikingsimulator]

My bad assuming the USA. Though at-will firing does not exist in Canada, the way the labor market is handled is very much the same. The spirit of my comment still stand.

[mardifoufs]

It does exist, since you can be fired for almost any reason during your "probation" period

[YuryVladkov]

Also my bad not being clear initially.

[programmarchy]

> Sadly, that's the US for you.

Eat crow, mate.

[GoOnThenDoTell]

Um what? The US is terrible in how employees are treated

[phpisthebest]

Um What? have you actually worked in the US? I find alot of people in other nations often complain about the lack of US regulations with out understanding that most employers go far beyond what regulations require them.

I for one do not want the Federal Government controlling my employment, I dont want the federal government doing anything other than national defense.

So no I do not want EU employment laws here in the US.

[GoOnThenDoTell]

I work in the US

[NeverFade]

I don't have much of an advice for you, OP, other than what you already knew: try to find a new job ASAP. You may have to leave the US for a while, and come back to interview on a visitor visa, until you can get a new job to sponsor your work visa, which I can only assume to be H-1B.

The above is not a substitute for the advice of an immigration attorney, which you absolutely must consult.

More generally, I wonder if post-2022, offer letters are going to matter at all. 2022 exposed the fact that their protections was always a sort of a "gentleman's agreement". Your case is a great example of that: your only recourse is suing Amazon, a near trillion dollar corporation.

My understanding is that your legal case would be shaky. The offer letter never provided much of a legal protection, we just liked to assume it did, and operated as if it did - hence why the typical advice on tech forums for employees was never to rescind our acceptance of an offer letter.

Because it was never level sound, we saw the sanctity of the offer letter violated en-mass in 2022. It was exposed as an empty promise.