[mtpn]

> I call bologna on that, we can change anything.

Please be cautious about making such statements. I respect your experience and success at changing things for yourself with this model. I don't for a second doubt your sincerity. But the belief that a depressed/addicted person could get better if they just tried harder is part of a very dangerous feedback loop when you are down. You can't control everything you experience or the feelings you have. You can, sometimes, control your interpretation and response to those things, if you are careful. You can do everything right and still not be able to break the cycle. We're all different, I'm glad this worked for you but it doesn't necessarily follow that your approach would help others.

[fao_]

Exactly this. It especially applies to people who cope with self-worth problems. The "Just try harder" becomes "I can do it, why can't you", which becomes "You can't do it because of X", which over time morphs into "You can't do it because you're worthless".

Of course, because those thought-patterns increases stress and self-burden, this can lead to never-ending cycles where the person is literally rendered incapable of breaking out of the cycle.

[jcoffland]

This philosophy has become popular but is misguided. What people are really concerned about is blame.

The false logic goes like this: if I could improve my situation then I have been doing something wrong and therefore I am a bad person. But, calling me a bad person because I have a problem is counterproductive and insensitive so there must not be anything I can do. Or: possibility of improvement leads to blame/guilt. Blame/guilt are bad therefore improvement must be impossible.

This circular logic is flawed because it assumes that we start out life with all the information we need to live well. Life is a learning process and we can improve ourselves with out blaming our past or present selves for not knowing better.

[hateduser2]

You can’t even say it’s an information problem. I constantly do the wrong thing even though I know many people or a particular person thinks it’s a bad idea. Because I don’t have their conviction in its wrongness.

[RobertRoberts]

I agree that change is really hard. I mentioned in another comment that making a choice that you know will end you up where you want to go can be very difficult physically. Just consider any addiction issues. So if you look at any life issue the same way an addict (who is determined to quit) looks at their problem, you may find the motivation to face it.

One way I started facing some of my problems was just to ask other people how they fixed theirs. Sometimes I liked to just hear stories of people fixing problems I have never had. (like quitting smoking) I heard stories ranging from "My boss said he'd pay for my seminar fees if I joined him at this anti-smoking retreat. And my husband copied everything I brought home from that, and we both quit smoking together." The husband said the thing that helped him was to go through the routine (or rite) of smoking, but without the cigarettes. He'd go outside, stand there for a bit, pretend to open a pack, pretend to smoke one, taking deep breaths. And then go back inside.

Who would think to do that on their own? Another guy I worked with said "I quit because my wife asked me to." There was a deeper story there, but he was a man of few words. None the less, he noted why another guy couldn't quit smoking in our work place. "Jim, he will never quit. Notice how when he tries to quit, all he says to himself is 'Man I really want a cigarette', he won't quit."

There are all kinds of subtle clues to human nature, and your/mine thought processes hidden in discussions like this. Watching some people fail and some people succeed. I found that with all the things I faced, that if I keep looking, and don't quit, I always find an answer to my problem that I can actually do. The conviction comes from my belief that it's possible and this gives me encouragement to act.

[RobertRoberts]

I want to add to this discussion I have never changed completely on my own. I have always had some kind of help from others in some form. Either by their example, their stories or direct encouragement. Even sometimes their criticism has helped snap me out of my delusions to see things for how they really are.

I don't agree with "just try harder", I think something needs to change, sideways. I've never changed anything in my life by the "just try harder" method, I think it's bunk. If that is what it sounds like I am suggesting, I want to clarify that it is not.

I am saying look for the answer and don't give up until you find it. Try something small to change your path. Just one day, when you would normally complain, don't. Instead, find something good in the situation. And just keep making tiny, small possibly changes.

After awhile you may be surprised what will happen. You may start to see that some people in your life actually care about you, where before you thought they were against you. You may find new friends or notice the sun shining, when normally you would be looking at the ground.

When I decided that I didn't want to hurt (physically) anymore, just sitting at a desk all day, I decided (not a "try hard") to start running. I ran decided 10 minutes a day is more than I was doing, and it was a start. And I timed my morning activities and found I wasted 10 minutes consistently, and it seemed an easy thing to achieve. So I ran 10 minutes in crocs and my pajamas (fleece pants). I gave myself no excuse, I just did it. I did it 6 days a week for 3 months. And it changed my life.

The year before I couldn't barely pull my kids around in a sled, that winter, I not only pulled them around for a couple hours, I chased them around and wore them out. From 10 minutes of the lamest running you would ever see.

I got up to a mile in 10 minutes. (you can almost walk a mile in 10 min) I lost weight, my physical pain went away (general aches from sitting for years) and I learned that if you try to be like the buff nuts on youtube, you will likely lose. But you _can_ do 10 minutes a day. Anyone can.

I have a friend who is 85 spends a few hours in the gym a day now. He started getting wobbly and almost falling over. The doctor told him he needed a walker. Instead, he started doing balancing exercises and walks just fine now.

Will any of this help everyone? Nope, but I think most people can benefit from people like my friend. He showed me it's possible, and I believed him.

I know you can "do" something different in your life. Maybe you can't change your thoughts and feelings right away. But you can physically alter your habits and actions. And from that, many things are possible.

[waster]

Yes, this. And 10 minutes a day may be more like 2 minutes or 5 minutes for some people, or like once a week. OP mentioned that you need to find a reason (paraphrasing, sorry); but with that reason, you can change something, and small changes really do add up.

[RobertRoberts]

>And 10 minutes a day may be more like 2 minutes or 5 minutes for some people...

Yes, anything is more than nothing, and it will make a difference. But you can't ever quit, it has to be a permanent change, or things will revert to their previous state.

[gaius]

I have never changed completely on my own.

They say you're the average of the 5 people you spend the most time with. Well, you can choose those people, so choose wisely.

[RobertRoberts]

"self worth" problems are lie foisted on you. You value yourself more than anyone else, and I can prove it. How much time and money do you spend taking care of yourself vs taking care of other people?

How much time do you spend thinking about your own problems vs other people's problems.

One of the first things I considered that changed my life was to worry about other people more than myself. If you do that, it's not possible to be depressed. If you try this and it doesn't work, keep worrying about other people more than yourself until it does.

Depression is a recursive self sadness. No one I have ever met, heard of or read about was truly depressed because of other people's problems.

[mauritzio]

Sorry but mental health issues like depression are related to chemical dysfunctions. Would you say when your eyes become bad just try harder and work on yourself, I suppose you probably just buy glasses. Just because you found something out about yourself in a limited area, it doesn't mean it applies to everybody and anything. Maybe you could start and try to work on beeing humble ;)

[RobertRoberts]

>Sorry but mental health issues like depression are related to chemical dysfunctions.

Yes, they are based on chemicals. Also, did you know that by smiling and being nice to people you can add chemicals into your body that make you happy?

And yes, chemicals affect everybody differently. But it's scientifically proven that you have control over your feelings. Unless you have some incredible toxin overload, or you have a glandular problem, you can do something about depression without a doctor.

Unless you think that people who have chemical addictions like smoking and drinking also don't have control over themselves in a similar way?

(edit: @baddox - https://www.quora.com/Can-anyone-really-quit-smoking )

Edit: > Would you say when your eyes become bad just try harder and work on yourself,

I learned from a Swiss airforce fighter jet pilot about eye exercises to help with vision loss. (maybe it's common knowledge, but that's where I heard it) So I guess it depends.

[gaius]

Also, did you know that by smiling and being nice to people you can add chemicals into your body that make you happy?

This is true, and why it's common to tell someone who looks miserable to smile - it really is a two way thing, emotions affect expressions and expressions affect emotions.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/07/study-for...

These days of course a person is likely to take offence, thereby making themselves more miserable than they already are, or maybe feeling righteously offended is as close to happiness as they ever get, in which case the desired outcome has been achieved anyway!

[aloner]

Might be true, but telling a depressed person to smile more or "it's just chemicals" won't help them. Helping a depressed is a very different fight and getting them to understand there is a life much happier to live has nothing to do with chemicals.

[RobertRoberts]

>Might be true, but telling a depressed person to smile more or "it's just chemicals" won't help them.

Sure it will: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/248433.php

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/isnt-what-i-expected/20...

Google for more results...

Also, I agree that it's not simple, and that probably more than anything, these people need friends in their life that care about them, and let them know it.

[baddox]

> Unless you think that people who have chemical addictions like smoking and drinking also don't have control over themselves in a similar way?

I do that think, in fact.

[jcbrand]

Funny that you should bring up vision.

The common wisdom is that when your eyesight deteriorates, you should just accept it and buy glasses, or maybe have laser surgery done.

You can however improve your eyesight (of course within some natural/physical limits) by doing functional eye exercises.

In Germany it's called "Funktionale Optometrie", some googling tells me it's "Behavioral Optometry" in English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_therapy

I know about it because my wife has been doing it for 2 years and no longer wears contact lenses at all.

It's another example where you are not just some helpless individual stuck with certain traits, but that you can actively change and improve yourself and your life if you're willing to put in the effort.

[mauritzio]

That is all nice and helps as long as you don't reverse the reasoning like: Oh you can't view/feel depressed, well then just work on it more. For many the gap is just to big... no matter how much effort they put in it.

[RobertRoberts]

This is what I found to be the worst part about depression, sadness or feeling bad in general. It actively prevents you from solving the problem. No other issue seems to do this. It's like depression affects the "take action" part of your brain.

For example, if you slipped and twisted your ankle, you wouldn't ignore and think there is no solution. You sit down and hold your ankle and then limp to bed, get rest and stay off of it until it was better. Even if you didn't want to.

But problems of the heart, our feelings and our minds, they seem to get in the way of doing things that would actually help you get better.

So, maybe you just have to believe other people and try something new. Because just maybe there's hope, and doing something different for awhile can make something better eventually.

[tomcooks]

This is akin to saying "Maybe you could start running".

Talking about chemistry in your brain, running does wonders about that

Semi /s

[RobertRoberts]

I can't agree more. I would never believe this if I hadn't started running myself. People who have never run think it's foolish until they do it, and are amazed by the results. Also, I didn't see this change for a long time, you don't get it right away.

But I think doing anything at all to change your place in life will make you feel better.

[fao_]

There is a difference between being free of mental fog, and being beholden to mental fog. There are times where the viewpoints from one view cannot be fostered onto the other view without drastic changes.

Sure, this advice might have worked for you, but only because the fog had lessened enough for you to be susceptible to the advice.

It is not the fault of people within the fog that the advice doesn't work.

All I was doing was telling you about the viewpoint from within the fog. Just because it looks like a lie from the outside, does not mean that that is so.

Anyway, to answer your first question: I spend most of my time taking care of other people. I spend very little time taking care of myself. This should, of course, change; but that is difficult to do.

The answer your second question: I lack enough memory right now to answer this question.

[fao_]

Because I feel that that answer was long enough, but I have more to add, I wish to say also:

During puberty I had a lot of problems: depression, low self-esteem, difficulty with social problems, some social anxiety.

When puberty ended, the fog lifted and I was granted new insight into my life, and many of the problems severely lessened to the point where they do not bother me as much now.

It wasn't that the problems did not exist, it was that I needed a widefocus lens on my problems when I only had a macro lens. The ability to see more context helped me deal internally with those problems, and see that much of the stuff that I was hyper-focused on, didn't really matter in the long-run.

There isn't a way to force someone to change this, and stating that those problems were not real, is of very little help to people with those problems, especially when I distinctly remember it taking most of my energy keeping them at bay.

If you're lucky (and to continue the analogy), the person might have the right lens so that they can pull it closer and see a bigger picture, and slowly drag themselves out of it.

But assuming that everybody is capable of that is extremely harmful, and can feed those problems. Example: Telling someone with a low valuation of themselves that they need to 'just try harder' is both callous and can feed the beast that says that "see, you can't do it because you're worthless".

It is both unsympathetic to the problems that are faced, and puts you in severe danger of making the problems worse.

[RobertRoberts]

fao, read my other comment here. I really didn't mean to make it sound like anything is anyone's fault, or that it's their "problem" and they just aren't facing it.

If I didn't get help from some people, I would never have recovered. I didn't make my life better in a vaccum. I hope any issues you have in your life get better, and that at the very least I can offer some small amount of encouragement.

If things are not well with you, or anyone, sometimes that is just life, and life can be hard. But if you go and look for someone who has it worse than you, and somehow is still happy, we have to ask why and how, otherwise we may miss an opportunity to gain it for ourselves and those around us.

My mother treated my father very poorly, and she consistently blamed him for her unhappiness. But I found that if I make the people around me happy, even when I am not, sometimes it comes back around to me.

Do you take care of other people happily or out of duty alone? Just taking care of others may seem like a selfless act, but it can also be because of emotional abuse coming home to roost. I also took care of my mother, and she taught me as a child that being abused was normal, and that I should take care of her more than anyone else. So that is not what I meant simply by "worry about others more than yourself". I meant that sadness for your own problems makes you more sad, but sadness for other peoples problems causes you to act to help them. This was a barometer I used to determine which kind of sadness was affecting me, and which I should reject, and which I could do something about.

[mtpn]

Man, as I continue to try to see the shades and subtleties in what you are saying, statements like this gross oversimplification get in the way:

> If you do that, it's not possible to be depressed. If you try this and it doesn't work, keep worrying about other people more than yourself until it does.

[RobertRoberts]

When I started looking for wisdom, I found that often times I didn't like it at first, because it showed that I was missing something.

Maybe my wording was poor, but it's a simple fact that you can make your own problems worse, no matter what they are. Therefore, the opposite must be true. No matter what you problems have, you can improve them.

I just found that after having people around me destroy themselves and other people I had to start looking at why. All of them talked about themselves and their own problems. All of them. There was no exception.

I think that if you are truly honest with yourself, and in the midst of your deepest depression you analyze "what am I thinking about right now", you find it's yourself.

When I put a gun in my mouth, it wasn't to end my friends pain, it was end my own.

I was getting straight F's in school, so I was dragged into my school's counseler's office for evaluation. And the advice this trained counseler gave me was "You need to be more selfish." Even in the depths of despair, with no hope in front of me, as a kid, that advice seemed worthless and stupid.

It took me decades to work out of depression (where my answer in some part in my head was suicide) and anyone who tells you they have a quick answer is either selling surgery or pharmaceuticals. And the entire time I had to tell myself things like "don't go down, there's nothing there that's good." Even if I didn't want to believe it, and I wanted everything end, I kept repeating it because it was true. I had been at the end multiple times, and there was nothing good on the other side.

So, yes, my statement was simplified, but it's true. Find the thing you can tell yourself that you will believe, even in the darkest times, that will remind you of where you need to go. For me, it was to stop thinking about myself. Because it only made things worse. And I think that on some level, thinking about other people, and not focusing on yourself, has a usefulness for everyone.

[kaitai]

I think it's telling that parent says "we can change anything" and you went to "just tr[ying] harder". This is what many of my students do (I'm doing poorly in math, I need to just try harder, but trying harder doesn't help, so I must be bad at math, so I'll do something else). My observation about these students is that they are not very good at learning math -- that is, the techniques they use to study are not appropriate to the task -- and so trying harder indeed does not help.

Trying to assemble Ikea furniture using only a spoon also does not succumb to "just trying harder" but no one paints that as a moral failing.

We must continually learn new skills appropriate to our situation, not just try harder. This is a theme even in ancient history and religion, but it's still true. When it comes to being organized it was a revelation to me to read Marie Kondo's book and Organizing Solutions for People with Attention Deficit Disorder: between the two of them, I realized that I could build my living space to facilitate being neat or organized, working with my brain rather than "just trying harder" to be neat.

It is not good to be lazy, but I think we sometimes teach people that some topics are just hard for some people and so you might as well give up because trying harder won't help. No, sometimes your math teacher or textbook actually suck; sometimes your living space is organized for a different kind of brain; sometimes you're depressed because you're eating an allergen every day or because your manager truly is terrible and there are things you can do to change it without trying harder.

Do agree with, "We're all different, I'm glad this worked for you but it doesn't necessarily follow that your approach would help others," and that applies to my comment as well.

[RobertRoberts]

Ya, if you read my other comments, I never said "try harder" and I wanted to clarify that. I agree with that assessment for similar reasons you point out here.

But, it doesn't mean you can't do something to improve anything in your life.

But I found that usually people that are stuck end up thinking "it won't help me", but how do you know for sure? Sometimes you can't just do some new thing a little, sometimes you have to do it for a long time before you see results.

And, you are always right by saying "this may not work for others, just because it worked for you". But there are some universal things that work for everyone. If you eat you live, if you stop eating you die. If we starting working our way up from there, the logic tree splits and gets more complicated, but no matter what, you will be on the same branch with someone else. No one is truly alone here in their problems, we just need to find those other people, find out how they succeeded. Asking for help is a good start.

[mtpn]

Some good recommendations here! I do think that in the original parent post, but not in yours, the implication is that people who had problems had simply not found the correct motivation to solve them. I appreciate your take too though, and think I was maybe too hard on first poster, who maybe didn’t mean it the way it sounded.

[eeZah7Ux]

You can try hard and learn to swim very well, but you can't learn to flap your arms and fly.

"trying harder" to have more willpower is an oxymoron.

[RobertRoberts]

If we take any argument to an extreme we can see where the flaws lie. For example, who would claim that if their life depended on it, they couldn't change some aspect of themselves? Or if someone else's life depended on it.

And, no I don't have to be careful about saying things like this. I think it's an extreme failure of our modern society to side with those very, very few that truly have a physical disability that causes their emotional problems (ie, brain damage) compared to vast majority of people that simply have emotional damage, something that can be overcome with personal responsibility and having a reason to change.

In my case, I valued my relationship with my kids and wife more than the physical satisfaction I got from yelling at them.

If you choose to yell at your family, and blame a non-fixable disorder, so be it, maybe in your case, or someone you know, that's possible. But that person needs to get professional help. If that person reads my writing, they don't get any value from it.

But for everyone else, I hope they can see that real change is possible, and ignore all the neigh sayers that will give them an excuse not to try.

Word to the wise, if you give yourself an excuse, you will take it. For people that simple can't change how they act, they should check them selves into an mental health institution now, and get some help. Everyone else can truly and absolutely change themselves.

You just need to value the person you want to be more than the person you are.

[mtpn]

> If that person reads my writing, they don't get any value from it.

To be fair, they may well think you are referring to them, because of your words here and how you don't seem to acknowledge the reality of their condition:

> also I defeated crippling life long depression, food addictions, weight loss, and few other things many people want to label "diseases" we have no cure for or control over

Sometimes really all the person can do is avoid suicide for another day. That's the only choice available. To keep living or not. Traditional logic is not available to the suicidal person at that point. Only depression logic, and as the saying goes: depression lies. People who love their families end up feeling that their family would be better off without them dragging them down and instead of asking for a hug, they kill themselves. Depression blinds you to what your options really are, and what the truth is. You can't rationalize your way out of it with facts because depression destroys facts and replaces them with the conviction that you aren't worth anything.

> But for everyone else, I hope they can see that real change is possible, and ignore all the neigh sayers that will give them an excuse not to try.

I agree with you that the availability of an illness to be used as an excuse for poor choices comes with some baggage. And many people can improve their quality of life and relationships through making better choices in what to do, and allowing those better choices the time to accumulate into meaningful change. I am proud of you for improving life for you and your family.

In terms of professional help, I do believe it starts with taking and listening to a therapist and trying to create change based on thinking differently. It often works. If that fails, a trial-and-error journey with medication begins. If that also fails, the person is screwed until further notice, or they can try a bunch of experimental things. All of this is only possible if they can afford the costs of therapy and treatment, which is by no means a given.

[RobertRoberts]

>To be fair, they may well think you are referring to them, because of your words here and how you don't seem to acknowledge the reality of their condition:

I can see that. And I feel that sometimes a slap in the face really is what we need. People don't seem to like that idea, but it happened a few times to me, and some people will take that and turn it into a good thing and others won't.

I am speaking to the people who will accept the possibility that they can change. People who will never accept this will never change, it's that simple. Because they will always blame someone else for their problems. I have had people like this in my life, and they eventually come around to blaming you.

I found that for some people to get out of depression, they need to cut ties with these people, and find friends that will support them, not drag them down. Life is too hard the way it is.

>Sometimes really all the person can do is avoid suicide for another day.

I am intimately familiar with this. And I understand that's there's a point in time where words are meaningless. But if they are reading hacker news, I suspect it's possible they aren't there right now. In fact, by reading comments like this, it indicates they are looking for answers, encouragement or something, who knows.

When I was there, I looked for anything to help me through the day, or the moment. Sometimes it was cutting to make other pain dull, or finding a way to off myself that I think I could go through with. Anything. Drowning is how I would describe it. Logic to a drowning person is pointless.

But then, you have moments, where you are on the beach, you aren't drowning, and your fine. But you know where you will be again soon, and these are the times where you can look for hope. Find something to hold onto when you are drowning again.

One difficult choice I had to make was to not expect the people around me to take the weight of my pain. One of the worst nights of my entire life were when I was on the phone with a girlfriend who hung up to kill herself. I called her family and friends and found out the next day she was fine and she dumped me shortly after.

Despite all the pain I was in, I couldn't believe that someone could hurt you so bad and have no remorse about it. I realized then that if I expected other people to constantly be worried that I was going to off myself, that it would be the worst thing I could do to them.

So, using this knowledge, I started to face my pain, one little bit at a time. I didn't stop looking to suicide as an answer to my problems until I worked at this for many years. Always reminding myself the pain I would cause others.

It's a terrible lie that people believe that other's would be better off without them. And it may take a really long time to convince yourself of the opposite, but I know it's possible. The more you do for others, the more real this becomes. I made myself valuable to my family, with the intentions of doing the opposite of taking care of just myself, and over time I slowing learned to believe they value having me around.

I can say that even today, I don't have the same conviction many other people have of this. But I am not depressed (still have bad days, but I get out of bed and face it) and I no longer consider suicide. I have to say that it's my logic that helps me see the truth, it helps me stay on track, because my feelings can twist me all up, and I no longer want to follow them wherever they go.

I know many people can't afford professional help, but today, you can go on an internet board, call your parents, or a friend anywhere in the world and just ask them to say something encouraging. Anything happy or good.

The therapists I dealt with followed books and rules, my wife would just hold me for an hour. Which do you think made my day better? I know many people don't have a wife, or a friend to get help from. But there are many people out there that will help a random stranger through a moment of darkness.

Sometimes the answer to a problem is to just ask anyone for help.

[watwut]

I read quite a few war time memoirs (not soldiers bit people living there) and people indeed died because they could not adjust. Some aspects of you are changeable, others not so much. And checking yourself into mental institution won't change any of what is talked about here. Neither psychiatry nor psychology works so reliably, never mind them having to deal with real huge mental disorders primary. They will kick you off, because they deal with really heavy stuff and they can't help you with run of the mill spiritual path.

That argument is literally just you trying to insult/offend people. Maybe you stopped yelling at your familly, but you are still solving disagreement with insults - that pretend to be fact based but are based on lack of knowledge about mental institutions. I find yelling better, as long as I can yell back. It is less under the belt.

Society does not side with people who have problems, except in very few circumstances anyway.

[RobertRoberts]

>Neither psychiatry nor psychology works so reliably

I agree, most of the shrinks I dealt with were a mess, and could hardly help me.

>That argument is literally just you trying to insult/offend people.

I didn't mean to, and I regret posting that, as I really don't believe that it would help. And yes, I meant it as an argumentative point, that if you can't control your own actions, your likely a danger to society. Which really isn't a good argument to make in this context, and was a low blow.

>...you are still solving disagreement with insults...

The thing I taught my family, that didn't get mentioned here yet, is that I taught them how to be wrong and sorry. This solves almost every problem in a relationship.

I did it openly in front of everyone in the family. And when I screw up, I gather my family together in one room, and I openly apologize in front of all of them. I state clearly what I did wrong, and that I was sorry for it. I don't make an excuse for it, I just say sorry.

It doesn't mean there aren't fights, that will never change or end as long as life has difficulties and stresses. It means that our fights are more about what is actually wrong, not about being personally hurting towards the other person.

And when I go over the line, I apologize, and now everyone else in my family does this too.

>Society does not side with people who have problems, except in very few circumstances anyway.

Not in a good way, but society certainly likes to give excuses for keeping our problems as they are, or blaming someone else for them. Or at the very least, making us feel like we can't solve them ourselves or with just our friends and family.

[0xcde4c3db]

> those very, very few that truly have a physical disability that causes their emotional problems

It's not "very, very few". Numerous medical conditions involve changes in emotional functioning.

[RobertRoberts]

I won't dispute this. But just read the news:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/09/07/4928710...

This one is from 2011: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/42298789/ns/health-mental_health/t...

Please tell me that either socialmedia use it outside our personal control, or the news is mad with false reports about social media causing depression (or at least making it worse).

So, if a simple choice to not use social media can affect your state of mind, how much control do "physically healthy" people have over their lives?

[0xcde4c3db]

> or the news is mad with false reports about social media causing depression

Not necessarily false, but out of proportion with the quality of available evidence. Blowing preliminary or otherwise limited results way out of proportion is a routine problem with science stories in the popular news media, to the point that one journalist/scientist published a (real but intentionally flawed) troll study specifically to demonstrate how bad the problem is [1].

Basically, the popular news media is a pretty poor source for new scientific findings, especially for anything that relates lifestyle to health.

[1] https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/05/28/410313446/wh...

[RobertRoberts]

>Basically, the popular news media is a pretty poor source for new scientific findings, especially for anything that relates lifestyle to health.

Well, you have a good point there. But often times the truth takes a long time to come out. And comes out in bits over years. For example, I quit eating white sugar in 1995, and for many years people got literally angry with me because I wouldn't let my kids eat the stuff, or I wouldn't eat the dessert. They thought I was insane or the worst parent ever.

Today, there are other parents in our community who do the same. Doctors have told a number of my friends to not eat processed sugar because it damages arteries, etc...

With social media? Listen to Simon Sinek, he explains the pheonomen on the biochemstry and drug feedback in our bodies from social media and how bad it is for our youth.

One day I saw my oldest daughter sitting with a bunch of her friends. They were all ignoring her because they all had ipod touches, it broke my heart, so I let her get one. It was a big mistake I didn't repeat with my other kids. She got hooked on social media and is barely just now (after years) starting to get away from it.

But I agree, the news usually messes up health related information.

[baddox]

Is it possible that you are confusing depression, the mental state characterized by low mood which is experienced at times by most people, and major depressive disorder, the mental disorder characterized by persistent depression? Major depressive disorder is commonly referred to as “depression,” so it can be confusing.

[RobertRoberts]

Sure it's possible. I think the definitions of words compared to our actual experiences can vary greatly. But either way, I've had similar experiences to many other people that are still trapped in them and I know for a fact that you can do something about it. Even if it's just talking to a friend and asking for a hug.

[baddox]

My point was that your claim that positive thinking or willpower or whatever can cure depression may be far more accurate if you’re talking about the former definition than if you’re talking about the latter definition.

[nerdponx]

tried harder

It's not about trying harder, it's about trying better, and with support. Habits of mind are tremendously powerful; yes, there is a biochemical component to addiction, but there is also a psychological habit component.

As far as I understand, this is part of what Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) is designed to handle. A CBT practitioner works with the patient to come up with specific goals and a specific strategy for achieving those goals, including building and reinforcing new habits of mind.

Some people, like the GP, get lucky and figure it out for themselves. But in general that's not something you are expected to be able to do on your own.

[0xcde4c3db]

An issue worth considering is that if one is not already in an environment that's genuinely supportive, it can be hard to tell the difference between those offering support and those trying to take advantage. As with the poor, a great deal of money is made (or labor/sex extracted) by exploiting people with mental and emotional problems. Not because they have a great deal of money, but because they so often lack the means to defend themselves against predators. It doesn't help that the practical realities of mental health care make it pretty easy to come away from even a "proper" course of treatment feeling exploited.

[volgo]

Not with that attitude you can't. I've changed a lot of things about myself by ignoring advices like this one. I don't care if it's "scientific" or not (btw most modern social science is more of an opinion than traditional science anyways). You CAN change by thinking.

[mtpn]

I know people who escaped severe depression and suicidal thoughts only through medication, after trying all the talky-thinky stuff they could. I also know people who manage their depression with just cognitive behavioral therapy techniques, exercise, etc and are broadly successful at keeping things together. I'm all for ignoring advice that doesn't speak to you. I'm against a suicidal person reading something that increases their level of guilt and worthlessness.

[RobertRoberts]

>I'm against a suicidal person reading something that increases their level of guilt and worthlessness.

I have found that there are people in the world that want other people to die. It's a terrible truth.

But telling someone they can face their problems, and having that person feeling guilt or worthless because of that is not the same thing.

Some people need more than just a few words of direction, they need active people in their lives helping them.

But it doesn't mean that many people won't benefit from hearing this.

[mtpn]

> But telling someone they can face their problems, and having that person feeling guilt or worthless because of that is not the same thing.

That depends on who is listening, which is why, initially, I urged care to be taken in how we frame these things. On the internet we don't know who is reading or what they need to get better. At the right moment, for the right person, your advice could be just what they need, but at the wrong moment, it could add to their despair. Because we can't choose who is reading.

[RobertRoberts]

What I learned in my experience with depression is that I was down no matter what. And there was very few things that could make it worse. And I guarantee you what I wrote wouldn't mean a damn thing to me. I would ignore it and move it.

But then one day, it did mean something. And it was valuable. And the last thing I was doing when I was in despair was reading comments online. I was in bed curled up, or worse. Maybe you haven't had experience with severe depression?

Please provide an example of how you think you could protect people in the depths of depression by framing it differently, maybe I am wrong, and more people could be reached by a simple change or additional phrasing.

[mtpn]

This comment itself seems much more accurate than your original post. It allows for the fact that - sometimes - you don't have the power to change things right then. Sometimes the best you can do is survive, endure, and accept. You can only fix things when you can fix things.

It seems like you don't know how your first post got me thinking "try harder" so I want to highlight the things you said that gave me this impression.

>I was determined to end this trend, no matter what. After a few months (literally) of me not raising my voice, unless it was totally and completely justified (which I discovered was very rare) I could then say to my kids (and wife), I expect you to talk nice and decently to eachother, and as soon as they accused me of being grouchy, I pointed out that I hadn't been for months, and something changed, everyone started to listen to me, even when I talked quietly.

- Your determination seems to be the key factor in how you tell this. You made a choice and tried really hard to to follow through.

> I've become a morning person, I started jogging about 5 years ago (I hated exercise), I stopped eating white sugar in 1995 (because it was controlling me like a narcotic), and I have worked on many of my other bad habits and traits. I think anyone can change anything.

- this is a list of great accomplishments but avoids expressing that any of this was difficult. Just that anybody can change anything. I disagree, but so far we are just talking about behavior changes, you haven't mentioned depression yet, so fair enough.

> We just need enough of a reason to do something, and then we can do it.

- This is where I think you are just plain wrong. It oversimplifies the situation. Dismisses the many factors that effect motivation and mental health.

> The trick seems to be, can you make up your own reasons? I know we can.

- this is your own personal framework that worked for you. To my mind, reasons require logic to be available to the person.

> (also I defeated crippling life long depression, food addictions, weight loss, and few other things many people want to label "diseases" we have no cure for or control over, I call bologna on that, we can change anything

- This is where you bring up depression, which was my main problem. You put quotes around "diseases" and call bologna on the whole list, again offering that that "anyone" can change anything, presumably using that single method you have described. "Have a reason, make a choice, be determined." It's so dismissive, and I believe it's inherently false, plus it also sounds like it's not even what you really think?

You didn't, in the first post, mention anything at all about asking for help, or going through periods where you could not help yourself or change at the time. You only suggested that if the person thinks right, they can change literally anything.

People feel such guilt when they are engaged in behavior that hurts the people they love, and watch themselves make the bad choices in spite of knowing better. Family members wonder how their parent could ever sure by suicide, unless they hated their family. Etc etc. Reasons, alone, are not sufficient.