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by RobertRoberts 3101 days ago
If we take any argument to an extreme we can see where the flaws lie. For example, who would claim that if their life depended on it, they couldn't change some aspect of themselves? Or if someone else's life depended on it.

And, no I don't have to be careful about saying things like this. I think it's an extreme failure of our modern society to side with those very, very few that truly have a physical disability that causes their emotional problems (ie, brain damage) compared to vast majority of people that simply have emotional damage, something that can be overcome with personal responsibility and having a reason to change.

In my case, I valued my relationship with my kids and wife more than the physical satisfaction I got from yelling at them.

If you choose to yell at your family, and blame a non-fixable disorder, so be it, maybe in your case, or someone you know, that's possible. But that person needs to get professional help. If that person reads my writing, they don't get any value from it.

But for everyone else, I hope they can see that real change is possible, and ignore all the neigh sayers that will give them an excuse not to try.

Word to the wise, if you give yourself an excuse, you will take it. For people that simple can't change how they act, they should check them selves into an mental health institution now, and get some help. Everyone else can truly and absolutely change themselves.

You just need to value the person you want to be more than the person you are.

3 comments

> If that person reads my writing, they don't get any value from it.

To be fair, they may well think you are referring to them, because of your words here and how you don't seem to acknowledge the reality of their condition:

> also I defeated crippling life long depression, food addictions, weight loss, and few other things many people want to label "diseases" we have no cure for or control over

Sometimes really all the person can do is avoid suicide for another day. That's the only choice available. To keep living or not. Traditional logic is not available to the suicidal person at that point. Only depression logic, and as the saying goes: depression lies. People who love their families end up feeling that their family would be better off without them dragging them down and instead of asking for a hug, they kill themselves. Depression blinds you to what your options really are, and what the truth is. You can't rationalize your way out of it with facts because depression destroys facts and replaces them with the conviction that you aren't worth anything.

> But for everyone else, I hope they can see that real change is possible, and ignore all the neigh sayers that will give them an excuse not to try.

I agree with you that the availability of an illness to be used as an excuse for poor choices comes with some baggage. And many people can improve their quality of life and relationships through making better choices in what to do, and allowing those better choices the time to accumulate into meaningful change. I am proud of you for improving life for you and your family.

In terms of professional help, I do believe it starts with taking and listening to a therapist and trying to create change based on thinking differently. It often works. If that fails, a trial-and-error journey with medication begins. If that also fails, the person is screwed until further notice, or they can try a bunch of experimental things. All of this is only possible if they can afford the costs of therapy and treatment, which is by no means a given.

>To be fair, they may well think you are referring to them, because of your words here and how you don't seem to acknowledge the reality of their condition:

I can see that. And I feel that sometimes a slap in the face really is what we need. People don't seem to like that idea, but it happened a few times to me, and some people will take that and turn it into a good thing and others won't.

I am speaking to the people who will accept the possibility that they can change. People who will never accept this will never change, it's that simple. Because they will always blame someone else for their problems. I have had people like this in my life, and they eventually come around to blaming you.

I found that for some people to get out of depression, they need to cut ties with these people, and find friends that will support them, not drag them down. Life is too hard the way it is.

>Sometimes really all the person can do is avoid suicide for another day.

I am intimately familiar with this. And I understand that's there's a point in time where words are meaningless. But if they are reading hacker news, I suspect it's possible they aren't there right now. In fact, by reading comments like this, it indicates they are looking for answers, encouragement or something, who knows.

When I was there, I looked for anything to help me through the day, or the moment. Sometimes it was cutting to make other pain dull, or finding a way to off myself that I think I could go through with. Anything. Drowning is how I would describe it. Logic to a drowning person is pointless.

But then, you have moments, where you are on the beach, you aren't drowning, and your fine. But you know where you will be again soon, and these are the times where you can look for hope. Find something to hold onto when you are drowning again.

One difficult choice I had to make was to not expect the people around me to take the weight of my pain. One of the worst nights of my entire life were when I was on the phone with a girlfriend who hung up to kill herself. I called her family and friends and found out the next day she was fine and she dumped me shortly after.

Despite all the pain I was in, I couldn't believe that someone could hurt you so bad and have no remorse about it. I realized then that if I expected other people to constantly be worried that I was going to off myself, that it would be the worst thing I could do to them.

So, using this knowledge, I started to face my pain, one little bit at a time. I didn't stop looking to suicide as an answer to my problems until I worked at this for many years. Always reminding myself the pain I would cause others.

It's a terrible lie that people believe that other's would be better off without them. And it may take a really long time to convince yourself of the opposite, but I know it's possible. The more you do for others, the more real this becomes. I made myself valuable to my family, with the intentions of doing the opposite of taking care of just myself, and over time I slowing learned to believe they value having me around.

I can say that even today, I don't have the same conviction many other people have of this. But I am not depressed (still have bad days, but I get out of bed and face it) and I no longer consider suicide. I have to say that it's my logic that helps me see the truth, it helps me stay on track, because my feelings can twist me all up, and I no longer want to follow them wherever they go.

I know many people can't afford professional help, but today, you can go on an internet board, call your parents, or a friend anywhere in the world and just ask them to say something encouraging. Anything happy or good.

The therapists I dealt with followed books and rules, my wife would just hold me for an hour. Which do you think made my day better? I know many people don't have a wife, or a friend to get help from. But there are many people out there that will help a random stranger through a moment of darkness.

Sometimes the answer to a problem is to just ask anyone for help.

I read quite a few war time memoirs (not soldiers bit people living there) and people indeed died because they could not adjust. Some aspects of you are changeable, others not so much. And checking yourself into mental institution won't change any of what is talked about here. Neither psychiatry nor psychology works so reliably, never mind them having to deal with real huge mental disorders primary. They will kick you off, because they deal with really heavy stuff and they can't help you with run of the mill spiritual path.

That argument is literally just you trying to insult/offend people. Maybe you stopped yelling at your familly, but you are still solving disagreement with insults - that pretend to be fact based but are based on lack of knowledge about mental institutions. I find yelling better, as long as I can yell back. It is less under the belt.

Society does not side with people who have problems, except in very few circumstances anyway.

>Neither psychiatry nor psychology works so reliably

I agree, most of the shrinks I dealt with were a mess, and could hardly help me.

>That argument is literally just you trying to insult/offend people.

I didn't mean to, and I regret posting that, as I really don't believe that it would help. And yes, I meant it as an argumentative point, that if you can't control your own actions, your likely a danger to society. Which really isn't a good argument to make in this context, and was a low blow.

>...you are still solving disagreement with insults...

The thing I taught my family, that didn't get mentioned here yet, is that I taught them how to be wrong and sorry. This solves almost every problem in a relationship.

I did it openly in front of everyone in the family. And when I screw up, I gather my family together in one room, and I openly apologize in front of all of them. I state clearly what I did wrong, and that I was sorry for it. I don't make an excuse for it, I just say sorry.

It doesn't mean there aren't fights, that will never change or end as long as life has difficulties and stresses. It means that our fights are more about what is actually wrong, not about being personally hurting towards the other person.

And when I go over the line, I apologize, and now everyone else in my family does this too.

>Society does not side with people who have problems, except in very few circumstances anyway.

Not in a good way, but society certainly likes to give excuses for keeping our problems as they are, or blaming someone else for them. Or at the very least, making us feel like we can't solve them ourselves or with just our friends and family.

> those very, very few that truly have a physical disability that causes their emotional problems

It's not "very, very few". Numerous medical conditions involve changes in emotional functioning.

I won't dispute this. But just read the news:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/09/07/4928710...

This one is from 2011: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/42298789/ns/health-mental_health/t...

Please tell me that either socialmedia use it outside our personal control, or the news is mad with false reports about social media causing depression (or at least making it worse).

So, if a simple choice to not use social media can affect your state of mind, how much control do "physically healthy" people have over their lives?

> or the news is mad with false reports about social media causing depression

Not necessarily false, but out of proportion with the quality of available evidence. Blowing preliminary or otherwise limited results way out of proportion is a routine problem with science stories in the popular news media, to the point that one journalist/scientist published a (real but intentionally flawed) troll study specifically to demonstrate how bad the problem is [1].

Basically, the popular news media is a pretty poor source for new scientific findings, especially for anything that relates lifestyle to health.

[1] https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/05/28/410313446/wh...

>Basically, the popular news media is a pretty poor source for new scientific findings, especially for anything that relates lifestyle to health.

Well, you have a good point there. But often times the truth takes a long time to come out. And comes out in bits over years. For example, I quit eating white sugar in 1995, and for many years people got literally angry with me because I wouldn't let my kids eat the stuff, or I wouldn't eat the dessert. They thought I was insane or the worst parent ever.

Today, there are other parents in our community who do the same. Doctors have told a number of my friends to not eat processed sugar because it damages arteries, etc...

With social media? Listen to Simon Sinek, he explains the pheonomen on the biochemstry and drug feedback in our bodies from social media and how bad it is for our youth.

One day I saw my oldest daughter sitting with a bunch of her friends. They were all ignoring her because they all had ipod touches, it broke my heart, so I let her get one. It was a big mistake I didn't repeat with my other kids. She got hooked on social media and is barely just now (after years) starting to get away from it.

But I agree, the news usually messes up health related information.

Is it possible that you are confusing depression, the mental state characterized by low mood which is experienced at times by most people, and major depressive disorder, the mental disorder characterized by persistent depression? Major depressive disorder is commonly referred to as “depression,” so it can be confusing.
Sure it's possible. I think the definitions of words compared to our actual experiences can vary greatly. But either way, I've had similar experiences to many other people that are still trapped in them and I know for a fact that you can do something about it. Even if it's just talking to a friend and asking for a hug.
My point was that your claim that positive thinking or willpower or whatever can cure depression may be far more accurate if you’re talking about the former definition than if you’re talking about the latter definition.