[fao_]

Exactly this. It especially applies to people who cope with self-worth problems. The "Just try harder" becomes "I can do it, why can't you", which becomes "You can't do it because of X", which over time morphs into "You can't do it because you're worthless".

Of course, because those thought-patterns increases stress and self-burden, this can lead to never-ending cycles where the person is literally rendered incapable of breaking out of the cycle.

[jcoffland]

This philosophy has become popular but is misguided. What people are really concerned about is blame.

The false logic goes like this: if I could improve my situation then I have been doing something wrong and therefore I am a bad person. But, calling me a bad person because I have a problem is counterproductive and insensitive so there must not be anything I can do. Or: possibility of improvement leads to blame/guilt. Blame/guilt are bad therefore improvement must be impossible.

This circular logic is flawed because it assumes that we start out life with all the information we need to live well. Life is a learning process and we can improve ourselves with out blaming our past or present selves for not knowing better.

[hateduser2]

You can’t even say it’s an information problem. I constantly do the wrong thing even though I know many people or a particular person thinks it’s a bad idea. Because I don’t have their conviction in its wrongness.

[RobertRoberts]

I agree that change is really hard. I mentioned in another comment that making a choice that you know will end you up where you want to go can be very difficult physically. Just consider any addiction issues. So if you look at any life issue the same way an addict (who is determined to quit) looks at their problem, you may find the motivation to face it.

One way I started facing some of my problems was just to ask other people how they fixed theirs. Sometimes I liked to just hear stories of people fixing problems I have never had. (like quitting smoking) I heard stories ranging from "My boss said he'd pay for my seminar fees if I joined him at this anti-smoking retreat. And my husband copied everything I brought home from that, and we both quit smoking together." The husband said the thing that helped him was to go through the routine (or rite) of smoking, but without the cigarettes. He'd go outside, stand there for a bit, pretend to open a pack, pretend to smoke one, taking deep breaths. And then go back inside.

Who would think to do that on their own? Another guy I worked with said "I quit because my wife asked me to." There was a deeper story there, but he was a man of few words. None the less, he noted why another guy couldn't quit smoking in our work place. "Jim, he will never quit. Notice how when he tries to quit, all he says to himself is 'Man I really want a cigarette', he won't quit."

There are all kinds of subtle clues to human nature, and your/mine thought processes hidden in discussions like this. Watching some people fail and some people succeed. I found that with all the things I faced, that if I keep looking, and don't quit, I always find an answer to my problem that I can actually do. The conviction comes from my belief that it's possible and this gives me encouragement to act.

[RobertRoberts]

I want to add to this discussion I have never changed completely on my own. I have always had some kind of help from others in some form. Either by their example, their stories or direct encouragement. Even sometimes their criticism has helped snap me out of my delusions to see things for how they really are.

I don't agree with "just try harder", I think something needs to change, sideways. I've never changed anything in my life by the "just try harder" method, I think it's bunk. If that is what it sounds like I am suggesting, I want to clarify that it is not.

I am saying look for the answer and don't give up until you find it. Try something small to change your path. Just one day, when you would normally complain, don't. Instead, find something good in the situation. And just keep making tiny, small possibly changes.

After awhile you may be surprised what will happen. You may start to see that some people in your life actually care about you, where before you thought they were against you. You may find new friends or notice the sun shining, when normally you would be looking at the ground.

When I decided that I didn't want to hurt (physically) anymore, just sitting at a desk all day, I decided (not a "try hard") to start running. I ran decided 10 minutes a day is more than I was doing, and it was a start. And I timed my morning activities and found I wasted 10 minutes consistently, and it seemed an easy thing to achieve. So I ran 10 minutes in crocs and my pajamas (fleece pants). I gave myself no excuse, I just did it. I did it 6 days a week for 3 months. And it changed my life.

The year before I couldn't barely pull my kids around in a sled, that winter, I not only pulled them around for a couple hours, I chased them around and wore them out. From 10 minutes of the lamest running you would ever see.

I got up to a mile in 10 minutes. (you can almost walk a mile in 10 min) I lost weight, my physical pain went away (general aches from sitting for years) and I learned that if you try to be like the buff nuts on youtube, you will likely lose. But you _can_ do 10 minutes a day. Anyone can.

I have a friend who is 85 spends a few hours in the gym a day now. He started getting wobbly and almost falling over. The doctor told him he needed a walker. Instead, he started doing balancing exercises and walks just fine now.

Will any of this help everyone? Nope, but I think most people can benefit from people like my friend. He showed me it's possible, and I believed him.

I know you can "do" something different in your life. Maybe you can't change your thoughts and feelings right away. But you can physically alter your habits and actions. And from that, many things are possible.

[waster]

Yes, this. And 10 minutes a day may be more like 2 minutes or 5 minutes for some people, or like once a week. OP mentioned that you need to find a reason (paraphrasing, sorry); but with that reason, you can change something, and small changes really do add up.

[RobertRoberts]

>And 10 minutes a day may be more like 2 minutes or 5 minutes for some people...

Yes, anything is more than nothing, and it will make a difference. But you can't ever quit, it has to be a permanent change, or things will revert to their previous state.

[gaius]

I have never changed completely on my own.

They say you're the average of the 5 people you spend the most time with. Well, you can choose those people, so choose wisely.

[RobertRoberts]

"self worth" problems are lie foisted on you. You value yourself more than anyone else, and I can prove it. How much time and money do you spend taking care of yourself vs taking care of other people?

How much time do you spend thinking about your own problems vs other people's problems.

One of the first things I considered that changed my life was to worry about other people more than myself. If you do that, it's not possible to be depressed. If you try this and it doesn't work, keep worrying about other people more than yourself until it does.

Depression is a recursive self sadness. No one I have ever met, heard of or read about was truly depressed because of other people's problems.

[mauritzio]

Sorry but mental health issues like depression are related to chemical dysfunctions. Would you say when your eyes become bad just try harder and work on yourself, I suppose you probably just buy glasses. Just because you found something out about yourself in a limited area, it doesn't mean it applies to everybody and anything. Maybe you could start and try to work on beeing humble ;)

[RobertRoberts]

>Sorry but mental health issues like depression are related to chemical dysfunctions.

Yes, they are based on chemicals. Also, did you know that by smiling and being nice to people you can add chemicals into your body that make you happy?

And yes, chemicals affect everybody differently. But it's scientifically proven that you have control over your feelings. Unless you have some incredible toxin overload, or you have a glandular problem, you can do something about depression without a doctor.

Unless you think that people who have chemical addictions like smoking and drinking also don't have control over themselves in a similar way?

(edit: @baddox - https://www.quora.com/Can-anyone-really-quit-smoking )

Edit: > Would you say when your eyes become bad just try harder and work on yourself,

I learned from a Swiss airforce fighter jet pilot about eye exercises to help with vision loss. (maybe it's common knowledge, but that's where I heard it) So I guess it depends.

[gaius]

Also, did you know that by smiling and being nice to people you can add chemicals into your body that make you happy?

This is true, and why it's common to tell someone who looks miserable to smile - it really is a two way thing, emotions affect expressions and expressions affect emotions.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/07/study-for...

These days of course a person is likely to take offence, thereby making themselves more miserable than they already are, or maybe feeling righteously offended is as close to happiness as they ever get, in which case the desired outcome has been achieved anyway!

[aloner]

Might be true, but telling a depressed person to smile more or "it's just chemicals" won't help them. Helping a depressed is a very different fight and getting them to understand there is a life much happier to live has nothing to do with chemicals.

[RobertRoberts]

>Might be true, but telling a depressed person to smile more or "it's just chemicals" won't help them.

Sure it will: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/248433.php

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/isnt-what-i-expected/20...

Google for more results...

Also, I agree that it's not simple, and that probably more than anything, these people need friends in their life that care about them, and let them know it.

[baddox]

> Unless you think that people who have chemical addictions like smoking and drinking also don't have control over themselves in a similar way?

I do that think, in fact.

[jcbrand]

Funny that you should bring up vision.

The common wisdom is that when your eyesight deteriorates, you should just accept it and buy glasses, or maybe have laser surgery done.

You can however improve your eyesight (of course within some natural/physical limits) by doing functional eye exercises.

In Germany it's called "Funktionale Optometrie", some googling tells me it's "Behavioral Optometry" in English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_therapy

I know about it because my wife has been doing it for 2 years and no longer wears contact lenses at all.

It's another example where you are not just some helpless individual stuck with certain traits, but that you can actively change and improve yourself and your life if you're willing to put in the effort.

[mauritzio]

That is all nice and helps as long as you don't reverse the reasoning like: Oh you can't view/feel depressed, well then just work on it more. For many the gap is just to big... no matter how much effort they put in it.

[RobertRoberts]

This is what I found to be the worst part about depression, sadness or feeling bad in general. It actively prevents you from solving the problem. No other issue seems to do this. It's like depression affects the "take action" part of your brain.

For example, if you slipped and twisted your ankle, you wouldn't ignore and think there is no solution. You sit down and hold your ankle and then limp to bed, get rest and stay off of it until it was better. Even if you didn't want to.

But problems of the heart, our feelings and our minds, they seem to get in the way of doing things that would actually help you get better.

So, maybe you just have to believe other people and try something new. Because just maybe there's hope, and doing something different for awhile can make something better eventually.

[tomcooks]

This is akin to saying "Maybe you could start running".

Talking about chemistry in your brain, running does wonders about that

Semi /s

[RobertRoberts]

I can't agree more. I would never believe this if I hadn't started running myself. People who have never run think it's foolish until they do it, and are amazed by the results. Also, I didn't see this change for a long time, you don't get it right away.

But I think doing anything at all to change your place in life will make you feel better.

[fao_]

There is a difference between being free of mental fog, and being beholden to mental fog. There are times where the viewpoints from one view cannot be fostered onto the other view without drastic changes.

Sure, this advice might have worked for you, but only because the fog had lessened enough for you to be susceptible to the advice.

It is not the fault of people within the fog that the advice doesn't work.

All I was doing was telling you about the viewpoint from within the fog. Just because it looks like a lie from the outside, does not mean that that is so.

Anyway, to answer your first question: I spend most of my time taking care of other people. I spend very little time taking care of myself. This should, of course, change; but that is difficult to do.

The answer your second question: I lack enough memory right now to answer this question.

[fao_]

Because I feel that that answer was long enough, but I have more to add, I wish to say also:

During puberty I had a lot of problems: depression, low self-esteem, difficulty with social problems, some social anxiety.

When puberty ended, the fog lifted and I was granted new insight into my life, and many of the problems severely lessened to the point where they do not bother me as much now.

It wasn't that the problems did not exist, it was that I needed a widefocus lens on my problems when I only had a macro lens. The ability to see more context helped me deal internally with those problems, and see that much of the stuff that I was hyper-focused on, didn't really matter in the long-run.

There isn't a way to force someone to change this, and stating that those problems were not real, is of very little help to people with those problems, especially when I distinctly remember it taking most of my energy keeping them at bay.

If you're lucky (and to continue the analogy), the person might have the right lens so that they can pull it closer and see a bigger picture, and slowly drag themselves out of it.

But assuming that everybody is capable of that is extremely harmful, and can feed those problems. Example: Telling someone with a low valuation of themselves that they need to 'just try harder' is both callous and can feed the beast that says that "see, you can't do it because you're worthless".

It is both unsympathetic to the problems that are faced, and puts you in severe danger of making the problems worse.

[RobertRoberts]

fao, read my other comment here. I really didn't mean to make it sound like anything is anyone's fault, or that it's their "problem" and they just aren't facing it.

If I didn't get help from some people, I would never have recovered. I didn't make my life better in a vaccum. I hope any issues you have in your life get better, and that at the very least I can offer some small amount of encouragement.

If things are not well with you, or anyone, sometimes that is just life, and life can be hard. But if you go and look for someone who has it worse than you, and somehow is still happy, we have to ask why and how, otherwise we may miss an opportunity to gain it for ourselves and those around us.

My mother treated my father very poorly, and she consistently blamed him for her unhappiness. But I found that if I make the people around me happy, even when I am not, sometimes it comes back around to me.

Do you take care of other people happily or out of duty alone? Just taking care of others may seem like a selfless act, but it can also be because of emotional abuse coming home to roost. I also took care of my mother, and she taught me as a child that being abused was normal, and that I should take care of her more than anyone else. So that is not what I meant simply by "worry about others more than yourself". I meant that sadness for your own problems makes you more sad, but sadness for other peoples problems causes you to act to help them. This was a barometer I used to determine which kind of sadness was affecting me, and which I should reject, and which I could do something about.

[mtpn]

Man, as I continue to try to see the shades and subtleties in what you are saying, statements like this gross oversimplification get in the way:

> If you do that, it's not possible to be depressed. If you try this and it doesn't work, keep worrying about other people more than yourself until it does.

[RobertRoberts]

When I started looking for wisdom, I found that often times I didn't like it at first, because it showed that I was missing something.

Maybe my wording was poor, but it's a simple fact that you can make your own problems worse, no matter what they are. Therefore, the opposite must be true. No matter what you problems have, you can improve them.

I just found that after having people around me destroy themselves and other people I had to start looking at why. All of them talked about themselves and their own problems. All of them. There was no exception.

I think that if you are truly honest with yourself, and in the midst of your deepest depression you analyze "what am I thinking about right now", you find it's yourself.

When I put a gun in my mouth, it wasn't to end my friends pain, it was end my own.

I was getting straight F's in school, so I was dragged into my school's counseler's office for evaluation. And the advice this trained counseler gave me was "You need to be more selfish." Even in the depths of despair, with no hope in front of me, as a kid, that advice seemed worthless and stupid.

It took me decades to work out of depression (where my answer in some part in my head was suicide) and anyone who tells you they have a quick answer is either selling surgery or pharmaceuticals. And the entire time I had to tell myself things like "don't go down, there's nothing there that's good." Even if I didn't want to believe it, and I wanted everything end, I kept repeating it because it was true. I had been at the end multiple times, and there was nothing good on the other side.

So, yes, my statement was simplified, but it's true. Find the thing you can tell yourself that you will believe, even in the darkest times, that will remind you of where you need to go. For me, it was to stop thinking about myself. Because it only made things worse. And I think that on some level, thinking about other people, and not focusing on yourself, has a usefulness for everyone.