[RobertRoberts]

>I'm against a suicidal person reading something that increases their level of guilt and worthlessness.

I have found that there are people in the world that want other people to die. It's a terrible truth.

But telling someone they can face their problems, and having that person feeling guilt or worthless because of that is not the same thing.

Some people need more than just a few words of direction, they need active people in their lives helping them.

But it doesn't mean that many people won't benefit from hearing this.

[mtpn]

> But telling someone they can face their problems, and having that person feeling guilt or worthless because of that is not the same thing.

That depends on who is listening, which is why, initially, I urged care to be taken in how we frame these things. On the internet we don't know who is reading or what they need to get better. At the right moment, for the right person, your advice could be just what they need, but at the wrong moment, it could add to their despair. Because we can't choose who is reading.

[RobertRoberts]

What I learned in my experience with depression is that I was down no matter what. And there was very few things that could make it worse. And I guarantee you what I wrote wouldn't mean a damn thing to me. I would ignore it and move it.

But then one day, it did mean something. And it was valuable. And the last thing I was doing when I was in despair was reading comments online. I was in bed curled up, or worse. Maybe you haven't had experience with severe depression?

Please provide an example of how you think you could protect people in the depths of depression by framing it differently, maybe I am wrong, and more people could be reached by a simple change or additional phrasing.

[mtpn]

This comment itself seems much more accurate than your original post. It allows for the fact that - sometimes - you don't have the power to change things right then. Sometimes the best you can do is survive, endure, and accept. You can only fix things when you can fix things.

It seems like you don't know how your first post got me thinking "try harder" so I want to highlight the things you said that gave me this impression.

>I was determined to end this trend, no matter what. After a few months (literally) of me not raising my voice, unless it was totally and completely justified (which I discovered was very rare) I could then say to my kids (and wife), I expect you to talk nice and decently to eachother, and as soon as they accused me of being grouchy, I pointed out that I hadn't been for months, and something changed, everyone started to listen to me, even when I talked quietly.

- Your determination seems to be the key factor in how you tell this. You made a choice and tried really hard to to follow through.

> I've become a morning person, I started jogging about 5 years ago (I hated exercise), I stopped eating white sugar in 1995 (because it was controlling me like a narcotic), and I have worked on many of my other bad habits and traits. I think anyone can change anything.

- this is a list of great accomplishments but avoids expressing that any of this was difficult. Just that anybody can change anything. I disagree, but so far we are just talking about behavior changes, you haven't mentioned depression yet, so fair enough.

> We just need enough of a reason to do something, and then we can do it.

- This is where I think you are just plain wrong. It oversimplifies the situation. Dismisses the many factors that effect motivation and mental health.

> The trick seems to be, can you make up your own reasons? I know we can.

- this is your own personal framework that worked for you. To my mind, reasons require logic to be available to the person.

> (also I defeated crippling life long depression, food addictions, weight loss, and few other things many people want to label "diseases" we have no cure for or control over, I call bologna on that, we can change anything

- This is where you bring up depression, which was my main problem. You put quotes around "diseases" and call bologna on the whole list, again offering that that "anyone" can change anything, presumably using that single method you have described. "Have a reason, make a choice, be determined." It's so dismissive, and I believe it's inherently false, plus it also sounds like it's not even what you really think?

You didn't, in the first post, mention anything at all about asking for help, or going through periods where you could not help yourself or change at the time. You only suggested that if the person thinks right, they can change literally anything.

People feel such guilt when they are engaged in behavior that hurts the people they love, and watch themselves make the bad choices in spite of knowing better. Family members wonder how their parent could ever sure by suicide, unless they hated their family. Etc etc. Reasons, alone, are not sufficient.

[RobertRoberts]

>It allows for the fact that - sometimes - you don't have the power to change things right then

I think this is the issue with internet comments, my original comment didn't exclude anything either, the exclusion was assumed by many readers.

It seems the "try harder" is assumed almost universally if you suggest an idea that evokes emotions.

>You made a choice and tried really hard to to follow through.

This is a undeniable truth. All actions are based on a choice and follow through. Everything from choosing to brush your teeth and doing it, to choosing to get married and doing it. Why exclude difficult things from this simplistic formula? Because they are hard? Choose to quit smoking, and then you do. How you do it may vary, but that distils all instances of anyone quitting anywhere. (unless some bizarre instance of someone quitting smoking under duress? Even then they still have to choose and do)

How is it possible to change anything in your life with out the formula choose > do?

> this is a list of great accomplishments but avoids expressing that any of this was difficult.

Why would you assume it's not difficult? Because I failed to add this in the description of events? You assumed this.

>Just that anybody can change anything. ... behavior changes

Name a single behavior people cannot change. Go on youtube/google, and everything you'd ever consider changing you will find videos or stories of people doing it now or have already done it.

This is another absolute truth, not a subjective concept. Any behavior can be changed.

> It oversimplifies the situation. Dismisses the many factors that effect motivation and mental health.

Every event/action/change can be simplified, it doesn't make it invalid. Just because someone needs to take drugs to change their behavior doesn't mean that the forumla is different. Choose (take drugs) > do (take drugs) > choose (overcome depression) > do (overcome depression)

Do you believe a psychiatrist hands out drugs without a single action required of their patient? And if that patient chooses to follow that advice, isn't still a simple process? Whether it's hard or not does not change whether it's simple or not.

>this is your own personal framework that worked for you. To my mind, reasons require logic to be available to the person.

Explain how a person goes to a psychiatrist for help, but does not have a reason to do so. Or how a person tries to learn a foreign language without a reason, or go to work without a reason. You seem to be denying basic tennets of how life works in the basic sense.

You have to have a reason to do anything. Have you ever tried to do something truly random? I have tried as pure exercise in thought, it's not possible, you always have a moment of choice right before you do anything.

That reason is based on your thoughts. Which I would clearly lump "logic" and your mind together in the creation of reason and choice.

>It's so dismissive, and I believe it's inherently false, plus it also sounds like it's not even what you really think?

Again, this is an internet forum, with a comment made in a small box. It seems that it wouldn't be possible to discuss curing depression on twitter because you don't have enough space to qualify all of your concepts or back them up with sources to peer reviewed journals.

It's unfair to say I was being dismissive simply because I was being brief. And it's even more unfair to say something is false because it's stated simply.

I have a friend who is an alcoholic. He has an emotional attachment to being drunk, it helps him deal with his emotional pain. But by now, he has a chemical dependency to alcohol, and would likely get sick if he stopped cold turkey. But no way is it the same as a disease like cancer or the flu. He has poisoned his body, not infected it.

So, some people like to call alcholism a "disease" and divorce my friends responsibility from his daily choices.

I know for a fact that you can change what you think about. And that thinking about happy things vs thinking about sad things will affect your mood. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's not true.

What made it easier was to see the pain I was causing my family by not facing my depression. It hurt them when I couldn't get out of bed for days. It hurt my wife because she didn't understand what was wrong with me and couldn't help me. I saw that and used it to give me a reason to start facing my depression. One of the many reasons I built up and saved.

I had many people in my life hurt me and justified it by claiming "they were in pain", so I needed to suffer to make them feel better. Well I was now on the opposite side of this. I was causing pain by being in pain and not dealing with it. That is being selfish. And that is how I felt when I was abused as a child by a parent, where their pain was more important to them, than worrying about my pain.

If I wanted to lie to myself, I could stay in bed, get fired and lose my house. But at one point, I stopped lying to myself and said, "I am being selfish, I am taking care of myself instead of my family." And when you stop lying to yourself, and choose to the see the truth, you gain a small amount of strength to do something about it. So I choose to just feel bad, get up, feel bad, go to work, feel bad, come home, feel bad, hug my family, feel bad, etc...

Then I'd fail again, collapse, drown, and have to start over. I had stopped cutting myself years before this, and hadn't actually attempted suicide since getting married, but I desperately wanted to go back to that time where I was closer to everything being over. But I had a reason to not fall that deep again. I knew where it leads, and I told myself repeated don't go down, don't down, you know what's there.

About 9th grade, one night I took a bunch of demerol (heavy pain pills) drank a bunch of wine, put headphones on with a repeating depressing song. Put a bag over my head and an elastic belt around my neck. And went to bed. I woke up with my feet falling through the bed, my breathing was deep, I was gasping but I could barely feel it. My legs fell through the bed, and then I was only hanging on by my arms, hanging over a dark hole. And faces came at me, swirling like a mist, over and over, twisting away and coming back. Then one came right at my face, I almost had nothing left to hold onto, and the face twisted into a horrific skeleton and screamed.

I ripped the bag off my face and floated back up to my bed and I could see my room again.

I tried overdosing multiple times, with all kind of drugs, ended up the hospital a few times. I was committed once, forcefully. I ate bleach, put guns in my mouth, sliced my wrists multiple times. And attempted to put myself into compromising positions where I wouldn't survive. In the wild without resources on the streets with violent people.

There's more, but I am sure you likely have stopped reading now. I was a young boy facing a horrific uphill battle. But I made it. And I can assure you, that no matter who you are, if you have changed anything in your life, it started at a clear moment in time, where you said, enough.

[mtpn]

A few things:

I'm sorry for all the pains you have been through.

Yes, people assume things based on how you express yourself, and what you choose to mention or not. This is normal. Especially when you leave room for ambiguity. What the other person gets from your words is the words themselves plus their own baggage and assumptions. This feature of language is a lot of the problem, and why I would encourage people to take pains to be more clear with their words.

I'm not really trying to argue with you. I'm trying to give you a perspective that I think you should consider, but instead what you do is react, if not overreact, to each piece of information. I don't want you to agree, all I want is that you maybe understand, and accept that people who are different to you might see everything, including your words, differently, and that you might want to accommodate those people even though they are "wrong" in your view.

By oversimplifying, I mean simplifying so much that essential steps are omitted, thus the simplification becomes untrue.

I'm not, of course, saying that choice and resolve are not important parts of change. Just that people who currently don't have the resolve to follow through on what they need to do, and can't see all the reasons, need to know that that is a part of what depression feels like. And they are not to blame for having nothing in the tank right then. You need choice, motivation, determination/trying hard and opportunity - either some spiritual fuel, a break in the fog, a close call that scares you, maybe the right medication or therapy, or just random luck, whatever it is that gives you a foothold and a little bit of light. You need to know that this opportunity is coming, eventually, and you can get yourself out. That clear moment in time you talk about can't be forced through deciding things.

Anyhoo, I hope I have managed to be clear enough about why I think your post is not effective as advice, and potentially harmful. I think Andy Richter does a decent job of tweeting about depression in this thread: https://twitter.com/andyrichter/status/931546890901925888

And I actually see a lot of writing that is brief but still strikes me as effective. Brevity itself is not your obstacle. You might just have a really strong conviction that you know best.

[RobertRoberts]

>I'm sorry for all the pains you have been through.

That is very kind of you, and I can say very few people say this when I have mentioned any of what I have gone through. It reminds me to do the same for others. Thank you.

>I'm not really trying to argue with you.

A problem with written communication..., I didn't think you were, and I am not trying to be combative in return. It's too bad this is too easy to assume, in both directions. I appreciate the statement.

>...accept that people who are different to you might see everything, including your words, differently

Is it even possible for anyone to read anyone's words and get the same meaning? After years of communication, failures and successes (I have taught at college level as well) I have found it utterly futile to attempt to try to communicate with everyone.

It's not physically possible. The phrase "word to the wise" encapsulates this understanding, some words are just not for everyone. And to say they should be is an unreasonable expectation.

>By oversimplifying, I mean simplifying so much that essential steps are omitted, thus the simplification becomes untrue.

There is no such things as oversimplification, if your goal is to simplify something to it's essence. Then you've achieved your goal. And that was my goal.

I have found that everyone is different (an argument I think you would agree with) and no solution is universal to everyone. So the actual "essential steps" you refer to, aren't actually the same for everyone. But the beginning is. To decide, and then to act. What to decide and how to act is different for everyone, but you must start.

How can you disagree with the need to start if you want to change anything? This is only an oversimplification if you think I am saying more than I am.

But getting started, in my experience is 80% (made up number) of the work. Why? Because by measure of difficulty, it's the hardest thing to do.

Why castigate what is a universal truth, utter simplistic, just because I don't add more to it? I have read dozens of self-help books over the years, and it didn't matter what they taught if I didn't start doing anything.

Also, if you start, fail, and start again, and keep doing that over and over, that by definition is follow through. So just start.

>Just that people who currently don't have the resolve to follow through on what they need to do, and can't see all the reasons, need to know that that is a part of what depression feels like.

They don't need follow through, they just need to start doing something. One tiny, itty bit of success of any kind is more than they have had in the past. How can you dismiss success, no matter how small? If they fail, maybe they feel bad, maybe they will start again sometime, and if they keep doing that, after awhile, who knows? But to not start ever because of preconceived notions? How is that going to help anyone?

I know what depression feels like, it feels like everything is hopeless, and nothing will work. The only way out is to just try something, even if you don't think it will work, and then one day it does. And the beginning of a new life starts at a very minute level. A tiny, tiny seed of hope.

>And they are not to blame for having nothing in the tank right then.

Neither of us has blamed anyone for anything. Why bring this up and imply I have blamed someone?

If I was going to blame anyone it would be people that either have no experience with depression, or are depressed themselves telling other depressed people they can't help themselves.

>You need choice, motivation, determination/trying hard and opportunity - either some spiritual fuel, a break in the fog, a close call that scares you, maybe the right medication or therapy, or just random luck, whatever it is that gives you a foothold and a little bit of light.

Or a comment on the internet that strikes you the right way? You can't expect anything more from a message board like this, can you?

>You need to know that this opportunity is coming, eventually, and you can get yourself out. That clear moment in time you talk about can't be forced through deciding things.

Not all the time, but sometimes it can. And what I found with depression is your heart deceives you. On days when you are down, the reality is most likely everything is fine. So I found that reminding myself of what reality is helped me ignore my sadness and get moving. Depression saps of the ability to act, and there are myriad of ways to get yourself to act. Everyone is different, and everyone will have a different way of getting themselves to start moving, even when they don't want to.

You have to have something to hold onto that is solid and unmoveable when you are in an imaginary despair. Seeing people in actual despair helped me deal with this by saying to myself, "you're fine, you are still breathing, just get up." Someone else will say something else to themselves, this is a minor detail. But either way, you have to start doing something.

>Anyhoo, I hope I have managed to be clear enough about why I think your post is not effective as advice,...

I can see it was not effective to you, but can you provide actual proof that not a single person got anything from it? There are quite a few upvotes. I don't know what they mean, but I suspect other people disagree with you, not just me.

>...and potentially harmful

Here's the crux of your comments to me. Please demonstrate to me how I could harm people by telling them they can change their lives. To make a decision. To start something. To seek an answer. To find hope and not give up.

Depression can lead to death. I am sharing that you can turn things around, with real proof, and my own willingness to back up everything I have said. And to even remotely suggest that I could harm someone that is on the verge of killing themselves by saying "don't do it, there's hope", verges on insanity.

>https://twitter.com/andyrichter/status/931546890901925888

Andy Richter is responding to the claim that "depression is a choice" and he says in reply "Oh really? Well “go fuck yourself” is a directive."

Is depression a choice? No, I don't think so at all. I think the causes of depression are so varied as to be almost impossible to define. Everyone from homeless drug addicts to succesful CEOs can be depressed. But then I know for a fact that there are homeless drug addicts and CEOs that that are happy and not depressed. Why? Who knows.

But I know that I have seen homeless people overcome their depression and drug addiction and find hope and a future. Unless you are completely cured of depression, you can't see what is on the other side until you get there. Just like an alcoholic can't see what it's like to not drink anymore. So unless you have been completely depressed at the end of your rope, and then gotten to the point where you will never, ever consider suicide again, you can't see what those people see. I requires belief and acceptance that maybe what those people see is worth seeing yourself.

>You might just have a really strong conviction that you know best.

I said what worked for me. I have repeatedly acknowledge everyone is different and will have to do different things to change. And that there is a universal truth about change, that it starts at a single point in time with a decision followed by action.