I do not believe that common courtesy should have anything to do with properly positioning oneself, scoring points, earning a good reputation, or anything else remotely associated with a "zero-sum game".
We should be courteous for one reason only: because it's the right thing to do.
The older I get, the more I realize how unimportant most details are and how critical some of the big issues are. I don't think anyone said it better that Hillel: "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."
In the specific context of courtesy (or, more specifically, the context of wishing people a good morning), I think this more recent rabbi may have the final word, based on his experience at Auschwitz:
The rabbi, now in his eighties, told me in his gentle voice, 'This is the power of a good-morning greeting. A man must always greet his fellow man.'
The full story is here -- it's short -- go and learn:
"We should be courteous for one reaon only: because it's the right thing to do."
Digging deeper it's an ethics quesiton of whether things are right in and of themselves as "duties", or whether things are right due to their consequences, a classic debate between deontologists and consequentialists. Thanks for sharing your point of view!
My common courtesy wake-up call: MIT mechanical engineering students often had to go through the course "secretary" to see their faculty advisers of high-level MechE professors. At the time, the course secretary was a middle-aged women with a desk outside of the MechE administrative offices. When you walked into the office, you spoke with her and she would send you to the appropriate faculty office.
Whenever any of my (mostly male) coursemates talked about visiting the office, they always referred to her as "bitch," "cunt," "hag" etc. I never understood this - she had never been anything but nice and respectful to me. After one interaction I witnessed between the secretary and another student, I finally began to understand. Those other students really saw her as just a "secretary" who had no business running interference between students that were clearly her betters. I on the otherhand never went out of my way to ingratiate myself to her, but I did treat her as a human worthy of the same respect as any other faculty member, and I guess she noticed.
One year, I signed up for more classes than I intended to take with the intention of auditing the classes, deciding what I wanted to take and then dropping the excess classes before the drop date. I decided pretty quickly to drop one of the classes, and therefore didn't attend any of the lectures or do any of the coursework, but I procrastinated in getting the signature of my adviser to drop the class.
Eventually the drop date loomed, and I realized I had only a couple of days to get that signature. I walked into the MechE office, exchanged pleasantries with the secretary and asked to see my adviser. "Oh I'm sorry," she replied "he's out of the country for the next two weeks." She saw from my reaction that something was wrong, and I explained that if I didn't get my adviser's signature on the drop form ASAP, I'd fail the class. She smiled and told me that in situations like that she actually had discretionary power to sign forms on behalf of absent professors. She asked for the form, signed it (in her name) and gave it back to me. I was all set. A year after that, I handed in my thesis and forgot to sign a form. She called me and waited after hours for me to run down to the office to sign the form so I could graduate on time. All because I treated her like a human being.
I later told some of my coursemates about that, and they had absolutely no idea she had that kind of power. I like to think that maybe they started treating her a little better after learning what a little courtesy can accomplish. But I certainly learned that "little people" can hold great power that can be wielded in your favor if you just treat them like you want to be treated.
I get what you're saying, but I will admit that I am respectful (not necessarily nice, but generally respectful) to people exactly because of what they can do for me - in my case, I want them be be respectful back to me. In the example I wrote about, I was pleasantly surprised there was a bonus to being nice/respectful and that experience has stuck with me, but that wasn't what I was looking for.
I treat people they way I would like them to treat me, so yes, I am looking for them to do something for me. Selfish? Perhaps, but it makes for pleasant interactions and I see that as a win.
I agree - I liked the parent post up until the last paragraph. If one were to ignore the last paragraph and form their own conclusion, I think they would walk away with a nicer message.
I had a very similar experience with my Electrical Engineering school secretary - never, ever underestimate the power these people can have, especially if they have been in the role for a long time
My dad taught me this lesson very early in life. Where he worked, he was always very kind to the secretaries, remembering to buy them gifts when he went on business trips, etc.
My dad was doing his PhD in the early 80s when things like word processors and PCs were not common. When you needed to type things up, you literally needed a typewriter and type it by hand.
When it came time to typing up his thesis, the secretaries all volunteered to help him type up his thesis, so he ended up getting it done much, much quicker and with better accuracy than if he had to do it himself.
The "I was going to say X but I didn't" joke seems common in the CS/computer community. I find it vaguely irritating, because you're saying something you know you shouldn't be saying, as evidenced by distancing yourself from the statement. I was going to downvote, but maybe I can add to the discussion instead.
I have noticed that many people here think that jokes do not add to the quality of discussions. A joke is just one of several ways of introducing non-direct references to arguments (I think I can call them "hints"). I had a hypothesis that people may not like such hints which, after all, may be culture-dependent. So I tried other ways of hinting and found out that they do not seem to evoke such a hostile response. So it must be something else, but I am not sure what exactly. Another possibility is that people may be offended at jokes, even inoffensive ones, but this is not something I would like to test.
As far as rhetorical devices are concerned, there are many of them that may be used in a discussion without detracting from it. HN does not need to be dry and often is not.
There's also Anne Hunter in Course 6, who I think started out as some kind of secretary and has essentially been the most important, helpful, and generally nice person in the EECS department at MIT for the past 20 (?) years.
From the very moment they could communicate, I worked hard to teach my children common courtesy. It was the best gift I could give them. They didn't go to fancy schools, they never took "enrichment" classes, but they know how to be nice to people and make friends. I think it paid off, because they are all doing pretty well.
Courtesy makes you likable and smooths human relationships in everything you do. It gives you a huge edge. I don't understand why people don't do it. Maybe they grew up in an environment where courtesy is taken as weakness. Or maybe they are so convinced of their own merit that they feel there is no need to be nice to the "little people." Either way, they are seriously handicapping their future happiness.
Courtesy offers so much gain for so little effort. From smiling and holding the door open for someone at the supermarket to giving a considerate reply to someone who went to the trouble to come in for an interview, courtesy makes life better for everyone. The return smile and sincere thank you from the person at the supermarket brightens your whole day. The rejected candidate who received your thoughtful message might be the exact fit for a later job.
Similar to the quote in the original article, I believe you can learn a lot about a person by how they treat the hired help, whether it be at work or in a restaurant or hotel. If someone has no power of retribution, even if you are a selfish jerk, and you still treat them kindly, it's a pretty good sign you aren't a selfish jerk. On the other hand, if you are considering a future spouse or employer, and they treat servers and underlings like trash, someday they will treat you like trash too.
Courtesy is karma. You give to others, it always comes back to you.
I wish I could agree with you whole-heartedly but I cannot.
I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return, etc. For some things, yes, I see clear evidence of "good karma" coming back to me. For other things, I feel like my life is a case of "no good deed goes unpunished." I am pretty angry and bitter about it. I feel like I must be doing something wrong somewhere, like I am stupidly casting pearls before swine or something.
I can't figure out why I keep getting used and walked on. I can't figure out how to get taken seriously and turn all this supposed good karma to financial benefit in a business way. I strongly suspect part of it is that I am female and a lot of people seem to see me as motherly and seem to think "motherly" means I should cut my own throat for their benefit.
At this point, articles of this sort just kind of piss me off. If going around being nice and helpful really paid, I should be a rich woman by now. But somehow that just does not happen for me. I wonder if women need some opposite message, if this message benefits those who already know all about extracting value from others.
I don't know the answer. I just know that reading stuff like this feels like salt in very raw wounds for me.
> I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return, etc.
Really, only the former is common courtesy. The latter is something else--generosity. That can also pay off, but it can also bite. If a person is too generous, then they can get taken advantage of.
To illustrate with an example: let's say I pitch a client to build a web site for them. They come back and say that they really liked my pitch, but would like me to do some mockups of a new site before they can commit to hiring me.
The generous thing would be to agree. But that is time I'm not getting paid for, and in the long run, undercuts the value of my time and expertise as a professional. I'm getting taken advantage of.
But I can still be courteous, by promptly responding, thanking them for their interest and telling them how excited I am to work with them. Unfortunately, though, the press of other business means that I can't take on spec work right now. Maybe (if I really need the business) I could offer to structure the relationship in phases--pay a small fixed fee upfront for a mockup, and if they don't like it, we can part ways with minimal lost investment on either side. If they do like it, then we're on to the next step.
The potential client might walk away--true. But if I was always prompt and courteous, they would still have a positive impression of me.
I'm not saying "don't help people". I'm just saying that it's possible to courteously stick up for myself.
I absolutely agree with snowwrestler. Being courteous does not mean taking whatever crap people want to deal out. It also does not mean being a doormat or putting up with abuse. If you feel you are being used or walked on, just politely say "No, thank you. I appreciate your asking, but I'm not able to accommodate you in that way at the moment." A smile really helps here.
It's important to remember that business relationships only work when both sides benefit. You have every right to refuse a deal where you don't benefit. Everybody in business understands this.
I remember reading a "Miss Manners" advice column back in the 90's where someone asked her how to deal with improper questions about age, weight, and other personal matters. She suggested firmly saying "I beg your pardon???!" in a way that makes it clear the other person has stepped beyond the bounds of appropriate behavior while still maintaining one's own dignity. I supposed the modern equivalent would be to say "I'm sorry, WHAT did you say????" You say it in a way that makes it clear that you must have misunderstood, since up to this moment, your opinion of the person would never have included that kind of behavior. It gives them an out too.
You mentioned that you were considered "motherly." You have to be careful you don't end up having the same difficulties with your own children (if you are now or eventually become a mother) that you are having in your business relationships.
So often I see mothers that don't know how to say "no" firmly, but lovingly to their children. The mothers end up resentful of being taken advantage of, and it teaches the children that being annoying and demanding is the path to success. Teaching them right from wrong over the long term is much more important than satisfying their short-term desires.
Another point I would mention is that final success in life is not measured by being rich if the meaning of that word is only financial. A successful life is one filled with health, good friends, a loving family, enough money to be financially secure, and something interesting and fulfilling to do until you die. The money is just a means to the other things, and it doesn't take being rich. Unfortunately, many people think that money solves a lot more problems than it actually does.
Finally, please ignore mistermann. He has demonstrated his own ignorance about courtesy.
I am a mother of two adult sons who both have enormous respect for me. So no worries there.
Thank you for replying. Again, I actually do pretty well with issues of boundaries. I think there are other things going on here. Given some of the ugly responses, I am disinclined at this time to try to speculate or articulate.
Being successful and being nice shouldn't be the same effort -- they are two efforts, unrelated, that sometimes incidentally intertwine, hopefully for the better.
You should be courteous and respectful of human beings -- if you feel that this very concept is somehow detracting from your life in a meaningful way, I suspect that you're misattributing your lack of success. But it's hard to speak on it without any real specific examples.
I probably can't give you specific examples that would make sense to you without seriously shooting myself in the foot. Suffice it to say that getting condescending pats on the head on hn is a personal frustration for me and that folks here who like to see themselves as helpful and often do help others have a track record of crapping on me personally. And it would be really stupid to name names and give links to actual examples.
Edit: And I really feel pretty disrespected by the ugly assumptions you are obviously making about me. I am nice because I believe in it as an ethic, not merely a manipulative thing to do.
I grok frustration, anger -- nobody is perfect. Nobody is nice all the time. But reading something like this (from your blog):
>Just when I was about ready to go on a real tear and swear off niceness forever, the guy in line ahead of me at lunch behaved like just enough of an overprivileged dick that my relatively better mannered behavior resulted in the girl loading up my plate. I had trouble finishing it. So I think I will continue to be polite to folks who handle my food.
... rubs me the wrong way.
>I am nice because I believe in it as an ethic, not merely a manipulative thing to do.
My blog is intended as a safe place to express my personal frustrations with a very difficult life. It seems to be socially Verboten to speak of it anywhere else. I am not trying to make a good impression with it.
I find it ironic and rather ugly that the whole point other people are making is that being courteous pays off in a business way but when I state I am not seeing that I get attacked as not being genuinely polite for the right reasons (i.e. I am failing to genuinely expect nothing in return when these articles and discussions of them focus on the business benefits of so called common courtesy). I suspect part of the problem is that I do genuinely expect nothing in return and that often seems to be exactly what I get.
> I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return
> I can't figure out how to get taken seriously and turn all this supposed good karma to financial benefit in a business way.
Based on my very limited data, you sound like an arrogant self-entitled child with a huge ego, low self-esteem, and a chip on your shoulder.
Accomplish something legitimate, and you'll stop needing recognition from others to fulfill your self-esteem. Do nice things for others without expecting something in return genuinely, rather than just paying lip service to it, which is precisely what you are doing.
> I just know that reading stuff like this feels like salt in very raw wounds for me.
If my intuition is not incorrect, this is as it should be. You are doing it wrong.
But then again, maybe I've misjudged you, who knows. It has little effect on my life whether I am right or wrong. It has an enormous effect on yours, as you seem to be currently experiencing. If I was you I'd stop and think very carefully about whether there is perhaps some truth here.
Are you implying women are somehow different than men? That we should mollycoddle them, lest we hurt their gentle feelings? I doubt that's how she'd like to be treated, but again, I'm speculating.
I am not interested in being mollycoddled. I am also not interested in being pissed on. Those are not the only two options available for social discourse.
Very possibly, but I'm being completely honest with no ill intent when I say perhaps you're also misjudging yourself.
Again, perhaps my perception is wrong, but I find it very difficult to believe the person you describe yourself as would write the words you have written here.
I haven't even read your history so I fully acknowledge this is speculation. I'm just saying, I haven't met many people who can't think of several ways their thinking has changed over the years, on a constant basis. This is often referred to as wisdom or humility. But occasionally you meet the odd person who seems to have known it all their entire life. Hopefully you don't fall into the latter group.
Well I am sorry you are so unable to take my stated problem at face value. Given your admission that you really have no familiarity with my history, the logical and courteous thing to do would be to take me seriously and not project a lot of personal baggage from your past onto me.
I see no real reason to try to persuade or convince you. But perhaps you should think twice before lecturing a stranger on their assumed bad traits while behaving rather badly yourself overall.
It sounds like you have trouble being assertive. At the end of the day, you have to fight for your own interests. Assertiveness is the fine line between courtesy and self-preservation. Being assertive means you MUST stand up for yourself to protect others' interest from overriding your own. It's a tough duality that most people aren't naturally good at. Generally, though, standing up for yourself in a non-aggressive manner earns a lot of respect. I heard this great quote that really helped me dealing with issues of my own passiveness:
"People will only walk on you if you lay down on the sidewalk and let them."
Thanks. I actually have rather good boundries. I think my problem is a good deal more complicated than that. Given the ugly tone and assumptions of some of the replies, I strongly suspect that trying to explain further would be a bad idea.
Watch out for martyrhood. Indulging in it can definitely produce the kind of experience you describe.
But if you're sure that's not the problem, I'd suggest simply not associating with anyone who takes advantage of you. In a business context, this can mean "firing your customers", as someone once put it.
I grew up with a mother who heavily emphasized respect and courtesy. Thank you for doing the same with your children, it often feels like this world is very lacking nowadays.
It depresses me how negative out society can sometimes be, and lack of common courtesy is one of the biggest culprits.
I was always brought up to be polite, even to people who didn't deserve it - and especially to people who you didn't know well enough to form an opinion. The number of people who reject this approach and just act like everyone else is crap is sad.
My experience of this was, following graduation from university, going to the job centre. I was looking for a mundane job for a year to earn some travelling money. My "advisor" treated me like an idiot, and a failure - constantly asking why I was "incapable of finding a graduate job". The idea that I didn't actually want a "career" quite then seemed beyond her.
What a weird situation; I was a pretty smart guy, with a very strong engineering degree, being treated like an idiot by someone with very weak academic credentials. I didn't care what she was qualified in (she made a point of having the certificate on her wall, I think it was a foundation course in arts) so long as she was competent at her job; but ''by her own value system'' I was several steps above her on the ladder, even jobless.
She made a point of being a jerk about my unusual choice, rather than simple getting over her disdain and helping me out!
In the end I walked out on the principle of it. Being treated like crap is demoralising.
That was an important life lesson, and ever since I've made extra effort to treat people as human beings.
I went to a boarding school for my A-Levels where it was a rule that you had to say hello to everyone you passed in the corridors, it was enforced by those in charge 100% of the time and it felt weird at the beginning but after a couple of months and a weekend spent out in the "real world" it made us realise how nice exchanging a simple "hello" could be. On top of this it was expected that you would be nice to and treat all members of staff, from the cleaners and laundry staff to the principle and commanding officer (military college), with respect.
This has left a lasting impression on me and I try to always show courtesy to everyone, when meeting investors and clients I always make a point of thanking the person sorting the drinks, having a quick chat with the receptionist/secretary/cleaner, and generally "taking an interest". I also have no problem apologising if I've messed up or caused someone extra hassle.
I'm not sure how much it helps in the grand scheme of things but it sure makes the day more enjoyable and pleseant.
In (elementry) school I had the habit of saying good morning when I showed up - pretty basic and I didn't think anybody particularily cared, until my mom told me that the teacher had been told by one of the parents how much that simple good morning meant for their child.
So yeah, simple curtesy matters -- that said I don't think I would be that happy if every stranger were saying hello to me on the street; it would quickly become overwelling.
This really hits home. I had a few emails back and forth with the co-founder/CTO of a fairly successful startup that tried to recruit me back in January. We had a short Skype session, he basically "strung me along", vaguely brought up a homework assignment, and never got back. Like the author of this post, I emailed him back and checked for an update, but never got a response.
And to think I actually referred people to use their service before. Since this incident, I have lost a ton of respect for this person specifically. Not because we were not a good fit for each other, but because of the 360 degree change in attitude once he had no use for you. A bit sad to say this person is probably on HN too.
In contrast, his email responses while trying to recruit me originally were always within 24 hours, usually between 5~25 minutes. Fairly lengthy emails too. It's not that difficult to let someone know if you don't think you (and I) are not the best fit for each other. Show some respect.
An acquaintance recently made a facebook update describing how they belittled and berated a coffee shop employee for making a (fairly bad, to be fair) mistake regarding change on a $20.
I seriously considered leaving my office and going to the coffee shop to apologize for this person's behavior, and I personally am finished with this individual in both a social and professional context. There is pretty much nothing I find more offensive than rudeness when people make a mistake.
What it comes down to is empathy. Empathetic people are able to put themselves in the shoes of others and understand their circumstances and use logic to rationalize their own emotions. In the long run, this type of person is better to work with. That's why they say look at how someone treats a waiter. An empathetic person understands the waiter made a mistake because they are overloaded with tables or their mind is frazzled because they're working their second job of the day with a sick kid at home. The person who lacks empathy will only suspect pure incompetence or malice as the cause and have an outburst or berate the terrible service.
An important aspect here is the fact that the coffee shop employee is powerless in this situation - they could lose their job if they reply with equal rudeness. How we interact with those who have less power in a situation is very revealing of our character. I can't stand it when a person is only polite to people who have some kind of leverage over them.
The article makes a good point (it's much more nuanced and interesting than its title, on which I was prepared to make a judgment immediately; I'm glad I did not).
It's worth looking at in the context of the post it references, though [1]; several very useful and valid responses were made by people citing the practical issues with responding to every inquiry from every applicant.
Granted, I don't believe that applies to the author's anecdote, but they do both have a place in the same discussion.
I'll share two insights I've learned over time about courtesy.
1) Being courteous, over the long term, gives you power. There have been a number of initiatives I've been able to get done at work, that others could not, simply because colleagues give me a greater benefit of the doubt. They do so because I have always treated them very well, even when we disagree.
2) To be truly courteous, you must be very organized. If you're unorganized, it's easy to lose track of things--and it will be impossible to keep track of the many niceties of small interactions. But these are what add up, over time, to a great reputation.
Number 2 is an insight I have learned (and continue to learn) the hard way.
I'd add that you should always respond as quickly as possible. If when you receive something you immediately write a thank-you, for example, it always gets done. If you wait you can more easily lose track.
I'm not sure if this is help or stating the obvious but I've found that consciously making the effort to remember stuff and record it in my mind goes a long way to staying organised on this front. I found the best way to start was with people's names, when someone says "Hi, I'm X" I try to response with "Hi X, it's good to meet you, I'm Simon". Just this simple repetition of their name goes a long way to committing it to memory, if you can say it a couple more times in the conversation you won't forget it again.
I can sympathize with the poster for calling out this sort of rudeness but I'm also torn.
Rude behavior is a powerful "tell" or signal that gives you insight into how that party may behavior in the future. As he notes, he's going to avoid them in the future.
Now suppose they "get the message" that this behavior makes them look bad and institute some sort of "fake" courtesy; that signal will be lost. Personally, I'd rather not tell the jerks of the world that they have a sign on their back that says "I'm Jerk".
I know exactly what you mean, I'm in the middle of the application process right now. When companies have a poor level of communication with me as a candidate, I definitely rethink my interest in them.
Courtesy without consequence, clout or wherewithal is a dud.
Let me unpack that a bit:
People walk all over courteous people especially when they wield no social clout or when the person is of little consequence, in general.
Courtesy is too often taken -- in North American circles these days -- to be a dose of deference paid in advance for a future (and usually much larger) reciprocal dose of consideration or favor of some kind.
In short, unless you wield considerable worth ( of some kind ) no one's going to rule in your favor -- and against a much more formidable party -- owing to your courteousness.
How is me saying good morning going to mean that everybody will run over me?
Don't mistake curtesey from not standing up for your rights or agreeing to things you don't actually agreed with -- a "no, sorry I am not going to be able to come in on the weekend" is curtious, yet also standing up for your self -- "I don't work weekends" accomplish the same, but is less curtius.
I think some of the confusion in this whole thread would go away if people submitted their takes on where ( for them ) courtesy ends and firmness or assertiveness or strictness in demeanor towards others begins.
Where exactly are they willing to end their train of courteous acts and begin being very stiff in their gives and takes with society.
We tend to hold important / formidable / consequential people higher in regard than nice / courteous / generous people.
It is very very rare that one finds those both diametrical qualities in the same person.
A person is either a degree more assertive than he or she is courteous. Or alternately a degree less assertive.
Never the same degree in both.
I'll go as far as to say that there can be no one like that.
That degree makes all the difference in how he or she is perceived and weighed.
As they say, some people are admired and liked and others are feared and viewed at, in awe.
I will leave it to you to decide which of the two is more durable and desirable.
We should be courteous for one reason only: because it's the right thing to do.
The older I get, the more I realize how unimportant most details are and how critical some of the big issues are. I don't think anyone said it better that Hillel: "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."