[Mz]

I wish I could agree with you whole-heartedly but I cannot.

I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return, etc. For some things, yes, I see clear evidence of "good karma" coming back to me. For other things, I feel like my life is a case of "no good deed goes unpunished." I am pretty angry and bitter about it. I feel like I must be doing something wrong somewhere, like I am stupidly casting pearls before swine or something.

I can't figure out why I keep getting used and walked on. I can't figure out how to get taken seriously and turn all this supposed good karma to financial benefit in a business way. I strongly suspect part of it is that I am female and a lot of people seem to see me as motherly and seem to think "motherly" means I should cut my own throat for their benefit.

At this point, articles of this sort just kind of piss me off. If going around being nice and helpful really paid, I should be a rich woman by now. But somehow that just does not happen for me. I wonder if women need some opposite message, if this message benefits those who already know all about extracting value from others.

I don't know the answer. I just know that reading stuff like this feels like salt in very raw wounds for me.

[snowwrestler]

> I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return, etc.

Really, only the former is common courtesy. The latter is something else--generosity. That can also pay off, but it can also bite. If a person is too generous, then they can get taken advantage of.

To illustrate with an example: let's say I pitch a client to build a web site for them. They come back and say that they really liked my pitch, but would like me to do some mockups of a new site before they can commit to hiring me.

The generous thing would be to agree. But that is time I'm not getting paid for, and in the long run, undercuts the value of my time and expertise as a professional. I'm getting taken advantage of.

But I can still be courteous, by promptly responding, thanking them for their interest and telling them how excited I am to work with them. Unfortunately, though, the press of other business means that I can't take on spec work right now. Maybe (if I really need the business) I could offer to structure the relationship in phases--pay a small fixed fee upfront for a mockup, and if they don't like it, we can part ways with minimal lost investment on either side. If they do like it, then we're on to the next step.

The potential client might walk away--true. But if I was always prompt and courteous, they would still have a positive impression of me.

I'm not saying "don't help people". I'm just saying that it's possible to courteously stick up for myself.

[Mz]

Thank you. That's actually helpful.

[davidroberts]

I absolutely agree with snowwrestler. Being courteous does not mean taking whatever crap people want to deal out. It also does not mean being a doormat or putting up with abuse. If you feel you are being used or walked on, just politely say "No, thank you. I appreciate your asking, but I'm not able to accommodate you in that way at the moment." A smile really helps here.

It's important to remember that business relationships only work when both sides benefit. You have every right to refuse a deal where you don't benefit. Everybody in business understands this.

I remember reading a "Miss Manners" advice column back in the 90's where someone asked her how to deal with improper questions about age, weight, and other personal matters. She suggested firmly saying "I beg your pardon???!" in a way that makes it clear the other person has stepped beyond the bounds of appropriate behavior while still maintaining one's own dignity. I supposed the modern equivalent would be to say "I'm sorry, WHAT did you say????" You say it in a way that makes it clear that you must have misunderstood, since up to this moment, your opinion of the person would never have included that kind of behavior. It gives them an out too.

You mentioned that you were considered "motherly." You have to be careful you don't end up having the same difficulties with your own children (if you are now or eventually become a mother) that you are having in your business relationships.

So often I see mothers that don't know how to say "no" firmly, but lovingly to their children. The mothers end up resentful of being taken advantage of, and it teaches the children that being annoying and demanding is the path to success. Teaching them right from wrong over the long term is much more important than satisfying their short-term desires.

Another point I would mention is that final success in life is not measured by being rich if the meaning of that word is only financial. A successful life is one filled with health, good friends, a loving family, enough money to be financially secure, and something interesting and fulfilling to do until you die. The money is just a means to the other things, and it doesn't take being rich. Unfortunately, many people think that money solves a lot more problems than it actually does.

Finally, please ignore mistermann. He has demonstrated his own ignorance about courtesy.

[Mz]

I am a mother of two adult sons who both have enormous respect for me. So no worries there.

Thank you for replying. Again, I actually do pretty well with issues of boundaries. I think there are other things going on here. Given some of the ugly responses, I am disinclined at this time to try to speculate or articulate.

[toki5]

Being successful and being nice shouldn't be the same effort -- they are two efforts, unrelated, that sometimes incidentally intertwine, hopefully for the better.

You should be courteous and respectful of human beings -- if you feel that this very concept is somehow detracting from your life in a meaningful way, I suspect that you're misattributing your lack of success. But it's hard to speak on it without any real specific examples.

[Mz]

I probably can't give you specific examples that would make sense to you without seriously shooting myself in the foot. Suffice it to say that getting condescending pats on the head on hn is a personal frustration for me and that folks here who like to see themselves as helpful and often do help others have a track record of crapping on me personally. And it would be really stupid to name names and give links to actual examples.

Edit: And I really feel pretty disrespected by the ugly assumptions you are obviously making about me. I am nice because I believe in it as an ethic, not merely a manipulative thing to do.

[toki5]

I grok frustration, anger -- nobody is perfect. Nobody is nice all the time. But reading something like this (from your blog):

>Just when I was about ready to go on a real tear and swear off niceness forever, the guy in line ahead of me at lunch behaved like just enough of an overprivileged dick that my relatively better mannered behavior resulted in the girl loading up my plate. I had trouble finishing it. So I think I will continue to be polite to folks who handle my food.

... rubs me the wrong way.

>I am nice because I believe in it as an ethic, not merely a manipulative thing to do.

[Mz]

My blog is intended as a safe place to express my personal frustrations with a very difficult life. It seems to be socially Verboten to speak of it anywhere else. I am not trying to make a good impression with it.

I find it ironic and rather ugly that the whole point other people are making is that being courteous pays off in a business way but when I state I am not seeing that I get attacked as not being genuinely polite for the right reasons (i.e. I am failing to genuinely expect nothing in return when these articles and discussions of them focus on the business benefits of so called common courtesy). I suspect part of the problem is that I do genuinely expect nothing in return and that often seems to be exactly what I get.

[mistermann]

> I place a high value on treating others with respect, helping without expecting anything in return

> I can't figure out how to get taken seriously and turn all this supposed good karma to financial benefit in a business way.

Based on my very limited data, you sound like an arrogant self-entitled child with a huge ego, low self-esteem, and a chip on your shoulder.

Accomplish something legitimate, and you'll stop needing recognition from others to fulfill your self-esteem. Do nice things for others without expecting something in return genuinely, rather than just paying lip service to it, which is precisely what you are doing.

> I just know that reading stuff like this feels like salt in very raw wounds for me.

If my intuition is not incorrect, this is as it should be. You are doing it wrong.

But then again, maybe I've misjudged you, who knows. It has little effect on my life whether I am right or wrong. It has an enormous effect on yours, as you seem to be currently experiencing. If I was you I'd stop and think very carefully about whether there is perhaps some truth here.

[enraged_camel]

>>Based on my very limited data, you sound like an arrogant self-entitled child with a huge ego, low self-esteem, and a chip on your shoulder.

Wow. Don't you think that you are judging her a bit too harshly, especially since (like you admit) you have very limited data?

And then people wonder why there are so few women in tech. People like you are part of the reason.

[toki5]

What part of what mistermann said had anything to do with Mz being a woman?

[mistermann]

Are you implying women are somehow different than men? That we should mollycoddle them, lest we hurt their gentle feelings? I doubt that's how she'd like to be treated, but again, I'm speculating.

[Mz]

I am not interested in being mollycoddled. I am also not interested in being pissed on. Those are not the only two options available for social discourse.

[Mz]

You have misjudged me. But thank you for taking the time and risk to give me some feedback.

[mistermann]

Very possibly, but I'm being completely honest with no ill intent when I say perhaps you're also misjudging yourself.

Again, perhaps my perception is wrong, but I find it very difficult to believe the person you describe yourself as would write the words you have written here.

I haven't even read your history so I fully acknowledge this is speculation. I'm just saying, I haven't met many people who can't think of several ways their thinking has changed over the years, on a constant basis. This is often referred to as wisdom or humility. But occasionally you meet the odd person who seems to have known it all their entire life. Hopefully you don't fall into the latter group.

[Mz]

Well I am sorry you are so unable to take my stated problem at face value. Given your admission that you really have no familiarity with my history, the logical and courteous thing to do would be to take me seriously and not project a lot of personal baggage from your past onto me.

I see no real reason to try to persuade or convince you. But perhaps you should think twice before lecturing a stranger on their assumed bad traits while behaving rather badly yourself overall.

[mistermann]

Hi Mz,

I was thinking about this on the way home and I've come here to apologize for the way I spoke earlier. Even now as I reread your earlier comment, my mind is simply unable to process it in any other way than I did initially, but my response to you was nonconstructive in the extreme, not to mention rude, arrogant, etc. Especially ironic in this thread.

I could go on, but I hope you get the idea. My sincere apologies.

[davidroberts]

That wasn't a very courteous reply...

[alecdibble]

It sounds like you have trouble being assertive. At the end of the day, you have to fight for your own interests. Assertiveness is the fine line between courtesy and self-preservation. Being assertive means you MUST stand up for yourself to protect others' interest from overriding your own. It's a tough duality that most people aren't naturally good at. Generally, though, standing up for yourself in a non-aggressive manner earns a lot of respect. I heard this great quote that really helped me dealing with issues of my own passiveness:

"People will only walk on you if you lay down on the sidewalk and let them."

[Mz]

Thanks. I actually have rather good boundries. I think my problem is a good deal more complicated than that. Given the ugly tone and assumptions of some of the replies, I strongly suspect that trying to explain further would be a bad idea.

[ScottBurson]

Two thoughts.

Watch out for martyrhood. Indulging in it can definitely produce the kind of experience you describe.

But if you're sure that's not the problem, I'd suggest simply not associating with anyone who takes advantage of you. In a business context, this can mean "firing your customers", as someone once put it.

[Mz]

I am sure I am not personally inclined to martyr myself. I am equally sure that does not prevent other people from trying to cast me in the role.

I have had a long day. Minor emergency came up. Catch you later.