[atchoo]

Everyone is very complementary so can I be allowed to be the debbie downer? As a web app, it's neat! Functionally, not a fan as yet.

I've lifted for a couple of decades. I put in the muscles for a pull workout I will be doing today and the results are... dumb. "Dumbbell superman" nah not going to do that. Two types of hammer curl? Nah that's a waste of time. "Bayesian hammer curl" wtf, my eye is twitching. Two types of dead-lift only differentiated with different shaped weights? Nope that's dumb too. It's also suggesting exercises at the wrong level e.g. bands or dead-lifting a kettlebell. I'd need to put all my gym's kettlebells onto a bar for a useful dead-lift :) It also had no vertical pull like a chinup/lat-pull for a back workout which is kinda criminal.

For a beginner, they won't know it's dumb, so this is kind of harmful. They need to use a more carefully designed complete split / full-body-workout, because it matters how multiple days combine, not just a single day.

For an intermediate/advanced lifter, clearer goals are more useful e.g. PL or BB, and then planning intensity/loading/waves/deloads etc. for constant progression. What I find most useful is deep dive discussion by an expert for most effective exercises and how to get the most of out of them with subtleties about grips and cues to increase mind-muscle-connection etc. Suggestions for how to swap out exercises to work around injuries or focus on weak points is very useful. The lifter can then iterate and swap exercises in and out of their routine to keep it fresh and useful.

[davidguetta]

Yeah, the idea is great ("what can you do with the equipment you have") but that also kinda promote a bit of fuckarounditis (https://leangains.com/fuckarounditis/) by asking the user "what muscle do you really wanna target", instead of emphasizing a better approach of lifting overall which is strong "functional" compound movements such as the big 6 (bench press / squat / deadlift / pull ups / rows / overhead press)

[jeffhuys]

That link does a lot of talking without really explaining what you DO have to do.

[davidguetta]

Well you didn't read it then. It's actually extremely clear about doing DEADLIFT / SQUATS / BENCH PRESS/ CHIN or PULL UPS / OVERHEAD PRESS.

I can understand you may not like the 'troll' / provocative way of writing tho, it's not for everybody

[haswell]

> I can understand you may not like the 'troll' / provocative way of writing tho, it's not for everybody

Not the other commenter, but some feedback: while I’m not a fan of the writing style, and I’m ok with that, my issue is really presentation and information density.

It takes a rather dedicated reader to find useful information in between paragraph after paragraph of ranting. And since I’m not skilled at lifting, I’m more interested in hearing what you think is useful than wading through a dozen ways to belittle what people are already doing.

I think you could increase your reach by making the problem/solution clearer. I’m just starting to dabble with weights, and I’m actively seeking good resources. I’m not inclined to add your blog to my research plan based on this.

Hoping this comes across as constructive and in the spirit it was intended.

[davidguetta]

I'm not the author of the article. But if you want a provocative answer:

In general your attitude is wanting easy shiny articles instead of really going deep in why and what works well or no, going past the writing style, especially when it's told by someone who is showing many results for him and others well... you kind of illustrate the point of people who end up with shiny and useless workout, don't eventually stick to the gym because "they don't feel like it" at some point.

No one really serious about sports (either lifting or martial arts) is going to spend more time pleasing you or make you feel better if you're not able to see that results speak for themselves. You have to be self motivated, it's not my job to do it. I've seen article mentionned at least 10 times as "best fitness article". If you don't like the style when it's one of the best articles, it's your problem, not the author's one.

But if you really want an answer for you if you are starting => just do the "starting strength" program. It's the simplest one and most effective. When you can bench 100kg in 3 months, you can read more about leangains.

[haswell]

> I'm not the author of the article

Ahh, fair enough, I misinterpreted one of your earlier comments.

> In general your attitude is wanting easy shiny articles instead of really going deep in why and what works well or no

That's not what I want at all. I'm happy to go deep. I love long-form content. I'm starting to investigate weights after sinking hundreds of hours into Yoga fundamentals.

I'm just in the stage of deciding where I'll invest my time next, and what I'm calling out are what amount to pedagogical issues with the structure. Simply put, there are more effective ways of conveying the same level of depth by focusing on the structure of information. If you were the author, this would have been feedback. Since you're not, it sounds like I'm just trashing the article, which is not my intent.

[addisonl]

A massive article filled with ranting and raving is anything but “extremely clear”

[lcnPylGDnU4H9OF]

A massive article filled with ranting and raving which eventually communicates a point is many things, possibly including "extremely clear".

[wpietri]

Yeah, I have no idea if he's right. But he's very clear.

[davidguetta]

From experience it's really nice as a starter because

- at a low level strength is as much important as looks

- it's a lot more fun to carry heavy weight than do 100 curls with low weights

- it's a very quick routine. I got some results with 40min x 3 a week

Note that leangains is just not only strength trainign but a quite 'opinionated' diet based on Intermittent fasting on which I have actually strong doubts on the 'necessity', but which is defintely showing results

[rkapsoro]

https://startingstrength.com/get-started

[nojs]

Starting strength is good but Rippetoe is very old school and the community has some cultish vibes. He is totally inflexible about any slight variation like high bar squats and trap bar deadlifts, which are great exercises and often better. His forums are not particularly friendly either. (Example: https://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/mark-rippetoe-q...)

I think stronglifts is generally a better program for beginners:

https://stronglifts.com/

[zls]

Been powerlifting for 15 years and I strongly disagree.

Stronglifts basically aped Starting Strength with minimal tweaks to justify separate branding, and only caught on over SS because of the slick app. Rippetoe has been coaching strength for many decades and was a competitive lifter himself, with his all-time PRs for squat and deadlift being a little over 600. He’s trained a network of coaches who command crazy prices for training because the cert is prestigious and incredibly difficult to earn. He was a key contributor to powerlifting and weightlifting components of CrossFit, until he (justifiably, imo) became disillusioned with the franchise. The Starting Strength book is an incredible resource for powerlifters, going into extreme detail into how to do the lifts, why, how to avoid getting injured, how to do your programming, and how to tell when you’ve outgrown Starting Strength. The forum you linked is actually an incredible resource where you can get free form feedback and general advice from the actual coaches (and Rippetoe), with no analog in the stronglifts community. (Is there even a stronglifts community?)

Mehdi, on the other hand… is some guy who made an app. He’s not even a particularly impressive lifter, and was a decidedly unimpressive one when he launched SL.

On the programs themselves: 5x5 is inappropriate for beginners. In no time at all you will hit a progression wall, and your workouts will take forever, where 3x5 could have continued without a hitch, for no upside. And despite the suggestion that more reps means more practice, the fact is that ESPECIALLY for beginners, doing a zillion reps in a state of fatigue is a great way to get hurt.

Barbell rows are such a poor substitute for power cleans that Rippetoe no longer recommends them at all, and the newest edition of the book expresses remorse for ever having made the suggestion.

But even putting all that aside, the most important part of SS is that it is essentially complete and will carry you for 6-9 months with no modification. Because as the commenter up the chain said, fuckarounditis is the most popular way to fail at getting strong. All the common complaints (“waah my biceps aren’t big enough”) are trivially addressed at the intermediate stage, once you’ve built a base of strength and a habit of training. This is why they are “cultish” about variations: you can do all that once you’ve run out your beginner gains. Until then, you don’t know what you’re doing and shouldn’t mess around.

[nojs]

To be fair, Mehdi is clear that he didn’t invent the program.

> The 5×5 workout is a strength and muscle building program that’s been around for over 60 years.

> It’s not clear who invented the 5×5 workout. The first person to write about in the 1960s was Arnold Schwarzenegger’s mentor, Reg Park.

https://stronglifts.com/5x5/#Overview

[jeffhuys]

Thank you. That website is a LOT less pretentious.

[zeku]

Leangains is a relic of time. Martin Berkharn(the guy who made it) was a VERY prolific poster on the bodybuilding.com forums around 2005-2012 or something like that. The tone of his entire brand is born out of that forum and style of communication. You had to fight for your life on there if you wanted to communicate.

I'm not excusing his tone btw just explaining.

[Wojtkie]

the bodybuilding.com forums from that time were something else.

[tru1ock]

Leangains is a great resource. Do not let the tone distract from the content. The content there went mainstream much later(IF) especially so he was ahead of the curve.

An IF protocol with a daily energizer routine worked wonders for me.

Some great reads: https://www.amazon.com/Kettlebell-Simple-Sinister-Revised-Up... https://www.amazon.com/Strength-Rules-Stronger-Almost-Anyone...

[squirtlebonflow]

No it doesn't.

It says squat, deadlift, bench, and curl. Anything else is optional, but don't overcomplicate it.

[tunesmith]

But if you're asking "what can you do with the equipment you have" you might not be able to do the big six. What if you only have bodyweight and dumbbells?

[Jcampuzano2]

Then it could be smart about recommending the next best thing.

For example -> Don't have a barbell but have adjustable DB's?

Replace Bench for DB bench

Replace Squat for goblet squat or split squat.

Replace OHP for DB OHP

Replace Deadlift for DB RDL

Replace Row for DB Row

Almost anybody can find something to hang off of for pull-ups so I'd say suck it up and find something.

Personally I would tell any new lifter that sure DB's and calisthenics work. But if you are one for optimizing/want the most gains in the least time, you NEED to find a barbell/squat rack at the very least.

A new lifter can literally put 200+ pounds on their squat/deadlift in 6 months or less. You will outgrow DB's pretty fast if you're really serious.

Note: I am an avid lifter and have been for 10+ years. You will rarely see somebody who is both natural and relatively big who does not focus on the big lifts, or at LEAST has a strength base built from the big lifts.

[davidguetta]

It's true ! But it's just a matter of 'fitness approach'. I never said the app was bad or even lying on its app, just that the approach is a bit ... suboptimal for beginners.

Like if someone download the app b.c. wants to do arms / pecs then this app will never tell him that squats are great in general. It's just a matter of approach.

Another approach could be "draw me a good workout with this gear" and you have the choice at most between "push" "pull" "legs" (a classic weekly split) or "general fitness" and it starts with a bunch of squats and then use the equipments.

Just food for thoughts

[dehrmann]

> fuckarounditis

Just punched in my muscles for today, and I'd agree.

It's leg and core day. For legs, it gave me barbell suitcase deadlifts and barbell Bulgarian split squats. They're not bad, but they overcomplicate things, and this is especially bad for beginners. What I'm actually going to do are squats and RDLs.

[lukas099]

Post proof that your preferred style of workout is better overall.

[davidguetta]

I don't care about proving it to you at all. There's thousands of bodybuilding ressources on the net if you're really interested, and the website I linked show a lof of before / after pictures.

And in reality it's not better than any other one that focuses on the big 6. What I like wit LG is that the idea is to be "very focused on what really matters" which is compound motions and reaching failure points. Personally I got results with 3x40 min workout per week, which is very small. And it's not just the workout, you have to follow a precise (natural) diet.

[lukas099]

You say that "what really matters" is compound motions and reaching failure points, but there isn't any good evidence for that. If your goal is to get good at compound motion and reaching failure points, sure.

[admiral33]

I agree.

OP made a nice site for exploring different types of movements for a muscle group. That being said the simplicity seems geared towards those just starting out with training but the site surfaces too many (in my experience) accessory exercises and movements I wouldn't try without a PT guiding me.

If you are a true beginner and you are drawn to a site like OP's you're probably looking for a training program. You can find many comprehensive programs online [1] but when you're starting out the information is overwhelming. Whichever routine you choose keep in the back of your mind that the CDC recommends that you engage all major muscle groups in a muscle strengthening activity at least twice a week[2].

Targeting every muscle group individually takes too much time, this is why most resistance training programs include a handful of exercises that train many muscles at once. Those are called compound exercises. Look up each exercise listed in your program and determine if it is a compound exercise. Those are the foundation of your program.

You will probably fail your commitment to whatever program you've chosen in the next 2 weeks. Some days you will need to shorten your resistance workout for whatever reason. The compound exercises are the ones that you should still complete on those days. Some days you will skip the workout entirely. Still try to meet the CDC recommendation for the week by adapting your program and then recommit the following week.

Diet is a tangetial topic, but you will need adequate protein in order to progress your training.

Eventually you will notice a difference between the person you are when you're consistent with it and the person you are when you're not. At that point there's no going back. The workouts get more challenging, but regularly challenging yourself is something you look forward to.

[1]: https://thefitness.wiki/routines/strength-training-muscle-bu...

[2]: https://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity/basics/adults/index.htm

[lukas099]

I don't really think compounds save all that much time because the rest period required for them is so much longer than for isolation movements. If you prefer compounds, great (so do I), but there's been so much gospel online about them and I don't think it's substantiated.

[eep_social]

Disagree. In the gp’s context, which I understand to be a new lifter skipping a set or superset due to time constraints, this is good advice. Simply performing the lift rep takes time, better to skip ten skull crushers than ten squats.

Rest matters a lot less when you‘re estimating rep x weight combos rather than dialed into rep counts that bring you within one of failure. An untrained lifter should be seeing gains so fast that the weight changes every week, in some cases they may not even be able to adjust in sufficiently small increments — for example progressing a 10lb bicep curl to 12lbs is only possible if you have a 12lb weight or +2lb accessory but jumping to 15 would be too much.

[femiagbabiaka]

To this point, Renaissance Periodization has an app with similar functionality, but whose programming is MUCH more sane. And they’re some of the best in the biz. It costs though: https://go.rpstrength.com/hypertrophy-app.

If you’re new to lifting, you can just do starting strength and you’ll be fine.

[shreyas056]

I think this is a great tool for a long-time Gym goer who wants to quickly check out some new movements instead of what they have been doing for years, to get out of the rut. For example for the glutes and lower back I don't know many workouts, I just stick to 2-3 movements I know. I can quickly use this to just mix it up once in a while and add it to my repertoire gradually.

[anigbrowl]

There are already many websites/videos where you can find lists of exercises by muscle group etc. - like MuscleWiki, from which all the exercises are drawn. I guess this is helpful if you want a simple UI with attached videos, but I share GP's concerns that it doesn't give new lifters any real guidance about putting things together, or allow much input on reps/weights.

I lift 6 days/week and just keep my 2-3 hour workouts in my head. I sometimes think I should write everything down to have a log of accomplishments and so on, but otoh knowing what I'm capable of at any given time is sufficient for me. I change up my weights/reps/sets whenever I feel like it and keep a mental overview of the the current week. I know how I'm progressing from how I feel and look and whether I'm gaining weight; I change exercises in or out on about a monthly basis.

Maybe it's easier for me because I work out at home so I don't have to care about packing things into a gym schedule, worrying about availability of weights/machines etc.

[bjornasm]

>For a beginner, they won't know it's dumb, so this is kind of harmful.

Oh please its not harmful to do deadlifts with a bar and then kettlebells or whatever.

> What I find most useful is deep dive discussion by an expert for most effective exercises and how to get the most of out of them with subtleties about grips and cues to increase mind-muscle-connection etc. Suggestions for how to swap out exercises to work around injuries or focus on weak points is very useful. The lifter can then iterate and swap exercises in and out of their routine to keep it fresh and useful.

And that is fine and can be found at your physio, a great yourube channel, online coach, some crossfit, powerlifting or weightlifting coaches. But that was probably not the aim of this webapp.

[atchoo]

Harmful as in giving bad advice.

[junon]

This might actually get me to start working out, it's exactly the kind of resource I've been looking for. I'd wager you wouldn't say "no, keep not working out", right? If it gets people motivated to start, why not?

[edanm]

That can be true of almost everything, and most people agree with that general sentiment.

I think it's still ok to say "well the webapp might be better than literally not exercising at all, but here are problems with it". In this context, it's ok to offer that kind of feedback/perspective, without having to contend with the question of "is this better than not starting at all".

Having said all that, as much as I do want to encourage more people to exercise, and as much as I agree with the idea of "most things are better than nothing", there are still a few huge caveats to that statement:

1. If a program is too hard, e.g. causing a lot of soreness the day after, someone might quit after a week, instead of had they started with something more sustainable.

2. If a program causes injury, then someone is probably literally better off not doing that program.

3. If a program is too overwhelming in terms of what it contains, e.g. too many exercises, then someone might again, get overwhelmed and quit.

4. If a program is literally impossible for someone to perform (e.g. some people can't bodyweight squat), this can also be very discouraging.

Basically, there are a lot of mistakes one can make in the making a program for someone starting out. From the perspective of someone choosing a program, there's a lot of good beginner programs on the internet one can start with. From the perspective of critiquing an automated app for designing beginner workouts, I think it's totally valid to say "well hang on, here's a bunch of things that could go wrong, is this really the right approach?"

[taccicardia]

i have to agree. and i agree with other posters' sentiment of "who is this for?" hitting the randomizer on a bunch of exercises is just awful programming, full stop. the app is snappy and kind of novel, but i'm not exaggerating when i say this is one of the most pointless workout apps i've seen, and i've used a lot.

[makestuff]

For anyone else just starting out this seems to be highly suggested for beginners https://www.boostcamp.app/reddit-ppl.

I have been doing it for a few months and the app makes it really easy to track. They have a premium version that lets you sub workouts or you can "donate" to the creator of the program. I gave them like $10 since I have gotten so much value out of it.

[dr_petes]

I’ve known plenty of people who will ask 1,000 questions about lifting before ever going to the gym. I think this app is great for people who are just getting into it, and want something that feels like a definitive answer.

Im sure after a few months of this, you’ll find better information on how to progress, but I’d recommend this to anyone texting me “hey what should I do at the gym.”

[hooverd]

> "Bayesian hammer curl" wtf, my eye is twitching.

adjust your priors, bro.

[mynegation]

I hope it is a start and something progressively more useful will be built on this. In addition to points you mentioned, I’d say my biggest item on the wish list is giving me the weight and reps progression over time. E.g. I put my age, weight, current RM and goals and get a schedule of major lifts and accessories that says do X for Y sets of Z reps with W weight this week and here is what you do next week etc.

[kortex]

Conversely, I'm a novely-a-holic and love trying out new, different, and obscure things. I also don't always go to the same gyms (there's about 3 ymca's equidistant to me, and they have different weight rooms with different machines and popularity). I also know some exercises but not a ton of variety. So it's hugely beneficial for me to see the different options available.

[goostavos]

>Two types of hammer curl?

I agree. Not enough. We need more curl variations. Also, the app should make it clear that they need to be done in a squat rack.

[itointegral]

Same here, I got variations of the same exercise. Haven't lifted for nearly as long as you have, but in my limited experience the order I got was also sub optimal: started with ab exercises, ended with big compound lifts. It would be a good idea to order the exercises based on the amount/size/etc. of the muscle groups they use.

[squirtlebonflow]

I have to agree. It suggested 13 exercises for me, most of which I've never heard of and have no desire to learn.

I'll stick with squat/deadlift/weighted pullups every day - no need to complicate shit.

[bjornasm]

Then this is not the site for you obviously. Why would you want a excercise suggestion app if you only want to do these tree excercises?

[Medh_Suk]

School teacher said this, stayed with me ever since:

1) Best workout is the one you can do regularly.

2) Slowest way to get in shape is to try to do it as fast as possible.

[steve_adams_86]

At the risk of sounding clueless, I think a good workout app can never be comprehensive and one-size-fits-all. I think they should be based around a clear and well-articulated philosophy and specific goals which lean towards highly opinionated.

Maybe you want to build upon dat ass or strengthen your hips to reduce injury. These are wildly different goals. One app should not aspire to do both meaningfully. However, an app focused on dat ass or injury prevention programs? Stellar ideas I think, and they can be executed on effectively.

Targeting a body part is also a weird concept. Target it to do what, and how? Why?

My goto after 15 years is lifting at a relatively low weight (kettlebells and barbell) and bodyweight progressions using tempo patterns. I used to go heavy and do fewer reps and sets because I wanted to maximize strength and minimize time working out, but learned over time that you really do max out strength and neglect a lot of other things. I was getting really strong for some random dude sitting at a desk all day, but try as I might, I was losing mobility and hurting myself despite an intense focus on form and checking in on how I was feeling and getting experienced people to review my program, lifts, and progression. To get to that point I had to learn a lot and make a ton of mistakes already.

Tempo lets me focus on form better, find compound movements I can move through safely in broader ranges of motion, and get my heart rate up higher for more of my session rather than in exhausting bursts. I injure myself less, my mobility and strength are better rounded, and I don't need to eat like a bear to prevent wasted effort. I love it. I've turned into a fat ass recently but that's unrelated; I'd probably be more of a fat ass had I kept lifting hard and eating harder. The point is, what works well for me (and others without a doubt) is certainly not something that I'd get from most generic workout apps I've encountered. And if I did, it would have been accidental. There is usually no clear reason or philosophy behind why you're doing what you're doing; it's just another workout in the database piped into your program. Just do it, because do it.

I think the programming I do today a relatively nuanced fitness foundation, and apps rarely ever touch on these matters or how to make decisions about them. They treat exercise like a very static, linear thing. Pick the movement, pick the gear, do the thing, you exercised. But bodies are so dynamic, movements yield different results under different loads, and people have very broad ranges of goals. It isn't good enough.

Want to get huge? There are lots of ways to do that. Want to do it based on the equipment you've got? Sure, we can narrow it down a bit now. Do you have any physical limitations? We can narrow it down even more. I think you can make a useful app out of this singular goal (and some people have, I think). But a random "what gear do you have and which muscles do you want to work" app is kind of like... I mean, what does working the muscle mean? What are you actually going to end up doing, and why?

I also agree completely on the point about potential harm. I think this is another reason to build an app around very specific methodologies and goals. There's more opportunity to hone in on great explanations of safe form and equipment usage, explain methods, and generally get the beginner acquainted with effective implementation of the movements and overall strategies.

But again, I'm quite literally a fat ass and I don't really know much about this stuff. I have lifted some weights, done a bad job at it a lot for a long time, and found ways in which it worked here and there. My sense is that we need to be specific and targeted, not all-encompassing, if we want to create great programs.