[davidguetta]

Yeah, the idea is great ("what can you do with the equipment you have") but that also kinda promote a bit of fuckarounditis (https://leangains.com/fuckarounditis/) by asking the user "what muscle do you really wanna target", instead of emphasizing a better approach of lifting overall which is strong "functional" compound movements such as the big 6 (bench press / squat / deadlift / pull ups / rows / overhead press)

[jeffhuys]

That link does a lot of talking without really explaining what you DO have to do.

[davidguetta]

Well you didn't read it then. It's actually extremely clear about doing DEADLIFT / SQUATS / BENCH PRESS/ CHIN or PULL UPS / OVERHEAD PRESS.

I can understand you may not like the 'troll' / provocative way of writing tho, it's not for everybody

[haswell]

> I can understand you may not like the 'troll' / provocative way of writing tho, it's not for everybody

Not the other commenter, but some feedback: while I’m not a fan of the writing style, and I’m ok with that, my issue is really presentation and information density.

It takes a rather dedicated reader to find useful information in between paragraph after paragraph of ranting. And since I’m not skilled at lifting, I’m more interested in hearing what you think is useful than wading through a dozen ways to belittle what people are already doing.

I think you could increase your reach by making the problem/solution clearer. I’m just starting to dabble with weights, and I’m actively seeking good resources. I’m not inclined to add your blog to my research plan based on this.

Hoping this comes across as constructive and in the spirit it was intended.

[davidguetta]

I'm not the author of the article. But if you want a provocative answer:

In general your attitude is wanting easy shiny articles instead of really going deep in why and what works well or no, going past the writing style, especially when it's told by someone who is showing many results for him and others well... you kind of illustrate the point of people who end up with shiny and useless workout, don't eventually stick to the gym because "they don't feel like it" at some point.

No one really serious about sports (either lifting or martial arts) is going to spend more time pleasing you or make you feel better if you're not able to see that results speak for themselves. You have to be self motivated, it's not my job to do it. I've seen article mentionned at least 10 times as "best fitness article". If you don't like the style when it's one of the best articles, it's your problem, not the author's one.

But if you really want an answer for you if you are starting => just do the "starting strength" program. It's the simplest one and most effective. When you can bench 100kg in 3 months, you can read more about leangains.

[haswell]

> I'm not the author of the article

Ahh, fair enough, I misinterpreted one of your earlier comments.

> In general your attitude is wanting easy shiny articles instead of really going deep in why and what works well or no

That's not what I want at all. I'm happy to go deep. I love long-form content. I'm starting to investigate weights after sinking hundreds of hours into Yoga fundamentals.

I'm just in the stage of deciding where I'll invest my time next, and what I'm calling out are what amount to pedagogical issues with the structure. Simply put, there are more effective ways of conveying the same level of depth by focusing on the structure of information. If you were the author, this would have been feedback. Since you're not, it sounds like I'm just trashing the article, which is not my intent.

[kaba0]

I am by no means a professional, but from the time I have went down the rabbit hole, Jim Wendler’s 5/3/1 method seems to be generally well-appreciated. (I remember having read the linked article as well).

But.. he is a terrible writer, his book is all around the place - so I absolutely agree with your general point. Some people simply suck at writing, even if the content might well worth sharing. Just hire a writer in this case! Fortunately there are shorter summaries of the method, so you don’t have to suffer through the book.

[addisonl]

A massive article filled with ranting and raving is anything but “extremely clear”

[lcnPylGDnU4H9OF]

A massive article filled with ranting and raving which eventually communicates a point is many things, possibly including "extremely clear".

[wpietri]

Yeah, I have no idea if he's right. But he's very clear.

[davidguetta]

From experience it's really nice as a starter because

- at a low level strength is as much important as looks

- it's a lot more fun to carry heavy weight than do 100 curls with low weights

- it's a very quick routine. I got some results with 40min x 3 a week

Note that leangains is just not only strength trainign but a quite 'opinionated' diet based on Intermittent fasting on which I have actually strong doubts on the 'necessity', but which is defintely showing results

[rkapsoro]

https://startingstrength.com/get-started

[nojs]

Starting strength is good but Rippetoe is very old school and the community has some cultish vibes. He is totally inflexible about any slight variation like high bar squats and trap bar deadlifts, which are great exercises and often better. His forums are not particularly friendly either. (Example: https://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/mark-rippetoe-q...)

I think stronglifts is generally a better program for beginners:

https://stronglifts.com/

[zls]

Been powerlifting for 15 years and I strongly disagree.

Stronglifts basically aped Starting Strength with minimal tweaks to justify separate branding, and only caught on over SS because of the slick app. Rippetoe has been coaching strength for many decades and was a competitive lifter himself, with his all-time PRs for squat and deadlift being a little over 600. He’s trained a network of coaches who command crazy prices for training because the cert is prestigious and incredibly difficult to earn. He was a key contributor to powerlifting and weightlifting components of CrossFit, until he (justifiably, imo) became disillusioned with the franchise. The Starting Strength book is an incredible resource for powerlifters, going into extreme detail into how to do the lifts, why, how to avoid getting injured, how to do your programming, and how to tell when you’ve outgrown Starting Strength. The forum you linked is actually an incredible resource where you can get free form feedback and general advice from the actual coaches (and Rippetoe), with no analog in the stronglifts community. (Is there even a stronglifts community?)

Mehdi, on the other hand… is some guy who made an app. He’s not even a particularly impressive lifter, and was a decidedly unimpressive one when he launched SL.

On the programs themselves: 5x5 is inappropriate for beginners. In no time at all you will hit a progression wall, and your workouts will take forever, where 3x5 could have continued without a hitch, for no upside. And despite the suggestion that more reps means more practice, the fact is that ESPECIALLY for beginners, doing a zillion reps in a state of fatigue is a great way to get hurt.

Barbell rows are such a poor substitute for power cleans that Rippetoe no longer recommends them at all, and the newest edition of the book expresses remorse for ever having made the suggestion.

But even putting all that aside, the most important part of SS is that it is essentially complete and will carry you for 6-9 months with no modification. Because as the commenter up the chain said, fuckarounditis is the most popular way to fail at getting strong. All the common complaints (“waah my biceps aren’t big enough”) are trivially addressed at the intermediate stage, once you’ve built a base of strength and a habit of training. This is why they are “cultish” about variations: you can do all that once you’ve run out your beginner gains. Until then, you don’t know what you’re doing and shouldn’t mess around.

[nojs]

To be fair, Mehdi is clear that he didn’t invent the program.

> The 5×5 workout is a strength and muscle building program that’s been around for over 60 years.

> It’s not clear who invented the 5×5 workout. The first person to write about in the 1960s was Arnold Schwarzenegger’s mentor, Reg Park.

https://stronglifts.com/5x5/#Overview

[zls]

That is fair and I didn’t know that! Thanks for the info. Dude made a lot of money off of it for not being the inventor :)

Now that you mention it, SL is probably a great program if you’re doing steroids and can recover from ~anything in 24 hours!

[jeffhuys]

Thank you. That website is a LOT less pretentious.

[zeku]

Leangains is a relic of time. Martin Berkharn(the guy who made it) was a VERY prolific poster on the bodybuilding.com forums around 2005-2012 or something like that. The tone of his entire brand is born out of that forum and style of communication. You had to fight for your life on there if you wanted to communicate.

I'm not excusing his tone btw just explaining.

[Wojtkie]

the bodybuilding.com forums from that time were something else.

[tru1ock]

Leangains is a great resource. Do not let the tone distract from the content. The content there went mainstream much later(IF) especially so he was ahead of the curve.

An IF protocol with a daily energizer routine worked wonders for me.

Some great reads: https://www.amazon.com/Kettlebell-Simple-Sinister-Revised-Up... https://www.amazon.com/Strength-Rules-Stronger-Almost-Anyone...

[squirtlebonflow]

No it doesn't.

It says squat, deadlift, bench, and curl. Anything else is optional, but don't overcomplicate it.

[tunesmith]

But if you're asking "what can you do with the equipment you have" you might not be able to do the big six. What if you only have bodyweight and dumbbells?

[Jcampuzano2]

Then it could be smart about recommending the next best thing.

For example -> Don't have a barbell but have adjustable DB's?

Replace Bench for DB bench

Replace Squat for goblet squat or split squat.

Replace OHP for DB OHP

Replace Deadlift for DB RDL

Replace Row for DB Row

Almost anybody can find something to hang off of for pull-ups so I'd say suck it up and find something.

Personally I would tell any new lifter that sure DB's and calisthenics work. But if you are one for optimizing/want the most gains in the least time, you NEED to find a barbell/squat rack at the very least.

A new lifter can literally put 200+ pounds on their squat/deadlift in 6 months or less. You will outgrow DB's pretty fast if you're really serious.

Note: I am an avid lifter and have been for 10+ years. You will rarely see somebody who is both natural and relatively big who does not focus on the big lifts, or at LEAST has a strength base built from the big lifts.

[davidguetta]

It's true ! But it's just a matter of 'fitness approach'. I never said the app was bad or even lying on its app, just that the approach is a bit ... suboptimal for beginners.

Like if someone download the app b.c. wants to do arms / pecs then this app will never tell him that squats are great in general. It's just a matter of approach.

Another approach could be "draw me a good workout with this gear" and you have the choice at most between "push" "pull" "legs" (a classic weekly split) or "general fitness" and it starts with a bunch of squats and then use the equipments.

Just food for thoughts

[dehrmann]

> fuckarounditis

Just punched in my muscles for today, and I'd agree.

It's leg and core day. For legs, it gave me barbell suitcase deadlifts and barbell Bulgarian split squats. They're not bad, but they overcomplicate things, and this is especially bad for beginners. What I'm actually going to do are squats and RDLs.

[lukas099]

Post proof that your preferred style of workout is better overall.

[davidguetta]

I don't care about proving it to you at all. There's thousands of bodybuilding ressources on the net if you're really interested, and the website I linked show a lof of before / after pictures.

And in reality it's not better than any other one that focuses on the big 6. What I like wit LG is that the idea is to be "very focused on what really matters" which is compound motions and reaching failure points. Personally I got results with 3x40 min workout per week, which is very small. And it's not just the workout, you have to follow a precise (natural) diet.

[lukas099]

You say that "what really matters" is compound motions and reaching failure points, but there isn't any good evidence for that. If your goal is to get good at compound motion and reaching failure points, sure.