[wincy]

This seems like a good place to be vulnerable and ask for advice.

I am 35 and still spend like in a teenager. I grew up really poor where if the money didn’t get spent right away it would just sort of disappear, into drugs or beer or whatever my mom and stepdad were spending it on. My only real asset is my house which has appreciate significantly in value, but all it would take is one job loss to get me behind on that. I take Adderall because it makes me an effective engineer and I’ve really struggled for multi year periods where I’ve tried to stop it, but my life gets measurably worse. I cashed out my $5,000 at one point and blew it on I don’t even know what, but it was something stupid I’m sure.

I guess the real enemy is future me. I don’t feel like I can consistently trust myself to make good financial decisions so the me of right now acts as if future me will just blow all my savings irresponsibly anyway. It’s depressing just writing it out.

I wish I could put money into an account that would then only disburse small amounts of it over the year, and I couldn’t override that.

I’m really ashamed of it but end up paying the mortgage with one biweekly paycheck, paying all my bills with the next biweekly paycheck, and despite making a very good salary for where I live, I’m living paycheck to paycheck.

I don’t really know how to develop impulse control, I spend hours and hours scrolling Amazon and websites trying to think of things to buy.

I know the answer is “just act like an adult” but I guess spending has become a coping mechanism because I’ve got a disabled kid, I don’t really know how to enjoy things that aren’t going to Costco or buying a new 3D printer or a shiny new computer.

Is there anyone here who has gone from being extremely irresponsible with money to having savings? How do I get over the trauma of my grandparents losing millions of dollars in the 2008 financial collapse, which happened right as I came of age? How do I stop “shopscrolling” Amazon until 2 in the morning?

I know it’s pathetic, and I feel like this is a place I might get an answer that’s actionable.

[crunchyfrog]

You're trying to cure the symptom, not the disease. You need a therapist, not financial advice.

You know what you're doing is unhealthy but you can't stop. A good mental health professional can help you deal with the pain you're trying to cover up with buying junk.

[skybrian]

I think it’s worth a try, On the other hand, figurng out how to deal with symptoms also counts as helping the patient.

[tommiegannert]

And in this case, paying for the therapy is both an expense and an investment, which is probably a great combination.

[fartingflamingo]

Therapy.

Also, one short term hack I haven't seen explicitly mentioned yet. Try to enjoy a healthier kind of buying: buy your house piece by piece. In other words, pay off your mortgage early. If you can direct some of your impulse buying towards early mortgage repayment like that, that would be a win!

Try to experience the process of increasing your ownership as close to your senses as possible:

- Can you make the repayments cash transactions instead of online?

- Make these early repayments as frequent as possible. If the bank allows monthly, quarterly or annually only, arrange for a trusted friend to collect weekly or even daily.

- Visualise your progress:

  - Make a drawing/real life 3d model/photo/lego model of your house.

  - Colour the bits of the drawing you now own.

  - Move the lego bits over from "the bank" to "mine/ours".

  - Mark individual stones or pieces of siding as your own versus the bank's.

  - ...

Just don't forget about finding a good therapist!

[thesmok]

> Try to enjoy a healthier kind of buying: buy your house piece by piece.

That's kinda what I've started doing after getting a child: every time I look at a new shiny thing, I think how many ETF shares I can get for that money. A younger me would just buy the thing, a parent me buys the shares. A nice number of money invested, that I can instantly check out in the app, is just as good feeling as having a shiny thing.

[anonuser123456]

I have a friend like this. She is successful, has an Ivy League degree in engineering and has very high income. But she grew up poor and makes terrible financial decisions. They largely seem outside of her control.

I speculate that growing up in poverty is not the cause of behavior; rather it's the reverse. Her family behaves in particular ways that make them poor and she has inherited those traits, either biologically or environmentally. From talking with her about how her family operates, this seems to be true. They have very low income but buy a new 4K HD TV every year along with trading up their vehicles to new models. They manage everything by an ever expanding debt load collateralized on their house/credit cards. I don't think these behaviors are 'breakable' because they aren't habits. It's almost like they are built into the default mode network.

In situations like this, when you can observe your behavior as something beyond your control, the best bet is to influence your environment rather than your behavior. Put your money beyond your easy reach (401k, IRA, pay down mortgage early etc.)

I personally struggle with eating behavior that is beyond my control. The only way I've been able to successfully control it is to put a lock on my kitchen cabinet that I don't have the combo to. This acts as a big moderator that gets me through the self destructive impulse periods.

[kiba]

I don't have complete answers, so I only give out solutions that has worked for me:

1. I set up a goal to only have one meal eating out per week and I did it by keeping track of whether I go to a restaurant that day. I used uHabit, an open source ads free android app to help me do this.

2. I also keep a spreadsheet for a certain aspect of my life: electronics and crafting. Each time I buy something craft related, I entered the expense. I have an expense goal that I try to keep it under per month.

These two strategies has allowed me to save me a lot of money and sometime I would go on for months without spending much money at all.

Also, it is likely that your spending habit is an emotional problem, not a discipline issue. I think it may be prudent to talk to a mental health professional.

[magneticnorth]

So first suggestion is that it sounds like you could benefit from talking to a therapist. You're self-sabotaging, and it sounds like you know that, and this is a super, super common, normal behavior that a therapist will likely be able to help you talk through.

As for money advice: Can you automate some saving, and have that happen before your money hits your bank account? E.g. if your workplace offers a 401k, you should definitely be maxing that out, and that means your employer will save that money before you have access to it, and doing that for long enough will set you up for retirement even if you mis-manage the rest of your pay.

If you can set up more systems like that, you should! You may be able to set up an after-tax account at fidelity or vanguard or similar that automatically gets a portion of your paycheck deposited in, and you can set it up to automatically buy stocks/bonds/reits on a regular schedule. That money would still be accessible, but you'd have to sell your investments and wait a few days to transfer into a checking account, which might be enough friction to help keep it saved.

[ball_of_lint]

There's already a bunch of great advice here. I have just one thing to add:

> the me of right now acts as if future me will just blow all my savings irresponsibly anyway.

I know this horrible feeling, but it isn't really true. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. It may take some work and time to change yourself and your habits, but it is possible. Even just commiting to yourself that you're going to work on this can go a long way to easing your feelings about it and breaking the cycle.

And if you can't do it alone, don't! Therapy is an option. Consider it splurging on your retirement.

[auslegung]

I agree with others that therapy is going to help you fix this problem (and others) more thoroughly than trying to muster up the willpower to do what you know you should be doing. You aren't a screwup, you aren't stupid. But you did get dealt a crappy hand and you're (naturally) struggling to improve it.

That being said, the number 1 thing that helped move me out of a situation similar to yours financially (grew up in poverty, poor impulse control, etc) was listening to the Dave Ramsey podcast every day. It probably doesn't matter if you listen to Dave Ramsey or one of the others mentioned in the article, so just go with someone. Though I will say that once every episode Dave Ramsey has someone come on and do their Debt Free Scream where they tell their story of getting out of debt, and then they shout at the top of their lungs, "I'M DEBT FREE!!!" And that was incredibly motivating, and at times emotionally moving and I even cried sometimes.

Anyway, listen to it as often as you can: on your commute, in the shower, while working out, while cooking, while eating, etc. Get it in to your bones.

What this did for me was it began changing the way I think about money. As I listened to hours of Dave Ramsey tell people everyday that saving money was cool, paying off debt is cool and the best way to financial freedom, that the 7 baby steps are achievable, my thoughts around money slowly changed, and so did my behavior. At first I disagreed with Ramsey a lot, especially how he treated some callers (that has improved a fair amount over the years, thankfully). But eventually I saw the wisdom in what he was saying.

[sokoloff]

Your biggest enemy is your present self. It’s also your biggest ally for recognizing your risk of self-defeat and asking for help.

In addition to the advice to use accounts with penalties for early withdrawals, I’d consider if setting a fun money budget would give you a metered amount of “yeah, no one’s perfect” escape valve but then have other accounts that are harder to readily access.

Consider splitting your direct deposit (after 401k deferral) into multiple accounts, some of which you don’t have ready access to. Put $100/check into an emergency fund account, $150/check into a travel or big fun account, $400/check into a house/car repairs account, $X/check to an after-tax Vanguard account, and the rest into your daily usage account.

You’ll have setbacks over the years, just as your grandparents did. But over the long run, there’s never been a 15-year run of negative nominal returns on the broad based US stock averages. Bet with that trend to continue, including there being some 5-year losing periods ahead.

You can do this, it won’t be easy but setting in place a few mechanisms to support, not letting the wheels come off the bus entirely if you skip up a little, and just committing to being better every year than the last probably has positive correlation with an ok outcome.

[timsneath]

There are some good answers here (along with some less good ones), but I wanted to just pause to applaud you for this post.

Even though HN is full of smart, data-orientated people, it's rare to see this level of self-awareness, vulnerability and curiosity demonstrated in a single comment. We could all benefit from more of this set of skills. Most of us dole out advice far more willingly than we ask for it. Through revealing your own frailty, you've opened the door for others who are less courageous to hear some good advice.

There's nothing pathetic here at all -- it's how we learn and grow. I hope this doesn't come across as condescending: I genuinely wanted to say, "thank you".

[oramit]

This is a really honest comment and my thought reading through it is that there isn't going to be "one quick trick" to help. Your troubles seem multifaceted and not completely about money. Have you considered talking to a therapist?

[wincy]

Maybe I haven’t found the right one yet. The last psychologist wanted to chat about the weather or something. I know I can set goals independently and execute on them. I lost 40 pounds during the pandemic after setting a weight loss goal. But you’re right it is multifaceted. It feels like a game of whacka mole where I put intentionality and care into one part of my life (career, or health) and the other parts languish.

[dboreham]

Therapists are likely similar to software developers: only a small proportion are really good. These days there are some great psychology resources on YouTube that could be helpful.

[nickd2001]

Hi Wincy, it seems to me not at all pathetic, to struggle with willpower to break bad habits, when you've got a disabled child! Seems to me that looking after your child would take lots of willpower and cause stress and lack of freedom, and that you should forgive yourself for using "retail therapy" as a coping strategy. ;) Perhaps the answer lies partly in finding a support group with other "special needs parents", as lets face it most of the population don't understand what its like to have a disabled child until it happens to them. Beyond that, one way not to waste money is to think of it in terms of hours you give your employer, spent money is spent life hours, therefore you're really shooting yourself in the foot, but obviously you know that.. frugality, hunting down deals can be fun and kind of a sport in itself (in moderation of course!) ,also being frugal reduces one's footprint on the earth and amount of waste one creates which can help others, so can be a motivator. If really you have no self-control over this (which is 100% understandable when dealing with other challenges) then how about some tricks like automatically pay money into a higher interest savings bond that has penalties if withdrawn early, or pay into an account that someone else has control of like a trusted friend or family member has to countersign or something, just surrender control to someone else for a temporary period if you really can't trust yourself. Can your partner/spouse help? I guess maybe not if you're asking here. Anyway I think nothing to be ashamed of, because loving and caring for a disabled person is enough to deal with, and having cr*ppy finances as result, well, like can be like that.

[adamsb6]

> I wish I could put money into an account that would then only disburse small amounts of it over the year, and I couldn’t override that.

Work for a company with stock trading blackout periods. Setup a 10b5-1 plan to periodically sell your company stock, then when the blackouts are lifted invest the money you want to save into your company stock.

This has the drawback of being undiversified, but undiversified savings may be preferable to no savings at all.

[bittercynic]

For the scrolling till 2am thing I have been using this strategy:

1. Before opening the laptop I decide how much time I want to spend, and what I will do immediately after.

2. Set a timer that I'll have to get up to turn off.

3. Do the thing I had decided to do. It can be a little thing, like washing 1 dish, taking out the trash...

I tried many strategies before finding one that works, and will still try to develop more so I'm not completely sunk if/when this one stops working.

[jeremysalwen]

Ironically, I think the advice of "Personal Finance experts" (which are derided in this article) is probably perfect for you. Maybe someone else will have a specific suggestion of who to check out, but I think they are mainly trying to help people with the psychological problem of spending too much money.

[anigbrowl]

Well you're being somewhat responsible already in that you're paying your bills straight away, so yay for you.

Regarding your shopping habits, it sounds like you're acquiring more tools but not making good use of what you have. Switch to buying used things,a nd spend more time sweating over the things you bought figuring out how to use them effectively. This will probably be an emotionally painful and initially unsatisfying process. Make something with your 3d printer. Be disappointed. Make something marginally better, continue being disappointed. Repeat until one day you unexpectedly feel pleased with the results.

It takes about 3 months to shift behavior patterns, even with the help of something like Adderall, which is totally fine to use.

[nmhancoc]

I think you’ve already got a lot of advice related to the mechanics of saving money (401k which has withdrawal penalties, maybe an IRA for greater friction, etc.)

On the emotional management / discipline front, I’d suggest also exploiting the similarities between personal finances and healthy living. If money is particularly painful for you, try forming simple habits like going on a 10 minute walk each morning, or eating healthy 1 day a week.

Small actions like that will help you prove to yourself that you can make changes, and you can ride that proof emotionally to make bigger changes incrementally over time.

An example would be 1 day a week of not eating out, which becomes a $10 per week saving habit, then moving to 2 days and $20.

[wincy]

I did lose 50 pounds in the last year. I know I can manage my health properly, but during that same time didn’t manage my finances well at all.

Maybe thinking about it the same way is key, thanks.

[zhdc1]

> I did lose 50 pounds in the last year. I know I can manage my health properly, but during that same time didn’t manage my finances well at all.

That's ok. Change comes slowly. Last year, and maybe this year, was about fitness. Make next year about your personal finances, and the year after that about something else (self growth, discipline, etc).

[tormeh]

> I wish I could put money into an account that would then only disburse small amounts of it over the year, and I couldn’t override that.

I think this is called a trust: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_law

Also, if you are so inclined, check if you can replace your habit of trawling Amazon for stuff to buy with trawling Amazon looking for stuff to buy in the future. Personally, looking forward to buying the thing is at least 60% of the enjoyment.

Anyway, try seeing a psychotherapist. Someone serious with a degree. Your money problems seem to be at least partially learned, so they can be unlearned.

[phantom784]

I'd say at least, if you think you want to buy something, at least wait 24 hours and see if you still want it.

[wincy]

I nickel and dime myself into poverty. My wife and I just end up with a lot of fast food charges for $30-40, a family of 4 eating fast food is crazy expensive. I know it’s not good, but it’s addictive in convenience especially with a kid who is disabled.

[zhdc1]

> Is there anyone here who has gone from being extremely irresponsible with money to having savings? How do I get over the trauma of my grandparents losing millions of dollars in the 2008 financial collapse, which happened right as I came of age? How do I stop “shopscrolling” Amazon until 2 in the morning?

Partner with someone who is disciplined, such as a potential spouse/partner, a friend, or even a support group of people in the same situation.

I know that recommendations are frowned upon here, but also take a look at Brian Johnson/Optimize. Discipline is one of the things they touch on a lot, and unlike other places, they have advice that actually seems to work.

[wincy]

My wife said she had savings before she met me. Apparently I have a very dominating personality. She owned her house outright which we sold so we could put a down payment on a much larger house.

Her and I have been talking today and I think having her approve purchases could help. I’m nervous about giving up control like that though, and thinking about it more I definitely get pleasure in buying new gadgets. But I need to trust her that she has my best interests in mind (which she does, but it’s hard to convince some part of me deep down of that).

[zhdc1]

> My wife said she had savings before she met me.

Consider doing this:

1.) Every month, schedule two hours with your wife to go over your finances.

1.a.) The first time you sit down, look for, select, and integrate your bank account(s) and credit cards to an online budget app. YNAB is a good recommendation, but there are others.

1.b.) Either the first or the second time you sit down, categorize all of your expenses in your online budget app, and use that to get a strong understanding of your monthly expenses.

1.c.) Every time you meet going forward, categorize all of your new expenses.

2.) Once you have your monthly expenses in order, look for a savings - spending ratio to budget towards. We've had success with the 50/30/20 plan, but there are others.

3.) Then, with your savings target in mind, at your next monthly review meeting, create a realistic budget in your online budget app.

Remember that your savings rate includes your 401K (Pillar 2) and IRA & Roth IRAs (Pillar 3) retirement accounts.

I also recommend listening to several online sources for advice and inspiration. These include the Money Guys and Dave Ramsey, both of whom can be found on YouTube. Also read the Bogleheads forum and Personal Finance and Financial Independence subreddits.

[mdp2021]

> it’s pathetic

No it isn't. But that is revealing the issue: you tend toward the irrational. In fact,

> How do I stop

By realizing that there is no need for that, rationally. You want to buy new X, but you do not need them: _see the fact_ - they are per se useless and replaceable for their improper purpose of emotional release: to have X is just petty if you want to fix your finance. You can replace the feeling of that X with something free. If there is one stroke of luck of living in these times, is that access to stimula has probably never been so rich in options and free in cost.

> trying to think of things to buy

Think instead of things to enjoy. They are really, mostly free nowadays (even our presence here at Dan's is). Be faster than the other habitual pattern and replace it - if you think of something to buy, realize you are doing it and think of something to enjoy. Replace the thought. You are used to collect items: collect experiences instead. Realize that you can replace items with experiences. For that, one laptop is enough, a basic car etc.

That thought habit is a mental pattern to replace, to replace with something that makes sense - the other does not, as you have to realize and in fact realize.

(And about Amzn, if other people were unable to read this, I would add: Bzos is bald. And you do not seem to have stopped to consider that. If you want to buy from him - who am I to convince you otherwise. But he is bald (you should see that - it should be a thought stopper, a doubt inducer). And possibly the last person in the world who needs your money. With your money you vote: is that what you want to promote? The very fact that you shop there raises the question: how long have you thought about your actions? The single ones, the generic ones. Some people think you are supposed to evaluate your actions before doing them. You take a step back, look at what you do, and what you have done and what you would do, and judge them as good ideas or bad ideas, for what they are. I am sure you know mathematics sufficiently. If I shop from somebody with those traits, I have deliberately deliberated it, it is a conscious choice. Read these paragraph carefully, and understand them. If you want clarifications, we are here.)

[kook_throwaway]

>With your money you vote: is that what you want to promote?

I was ordering from amazon 3-5x a week and when they locked us down in mid 2020 I was so disgusted by amazon getting filthy rich while my friends and neighbors were locked at home that I haven't ordered from them since.

[JamesBarney]

> I wish I could put money into an account that would then only disburse small amounts of it over the year, and I couldn’t override that.

You can do this with a trust or annuity. Have you looked into them?

[wincy]

I haven’t, this sounds like a potential idea though. Thank you, I’ll look into it.

[etempleton]

I would put money in a 401K or IRA that has a real penalty of withdrawing and takes time to withdraw as to deincentivize yourself from spending. Remove yourself from your financial equation. If you have a significant other and they are better with money have them manage both of your finances.

You need to have money removed from your account and into investment accounts automatically before you have a chance to spend it. Money in checking or saving will get spent.

[ghaff]

My one caveat is that you really want some savings that you have reasonably ready access to. As someone else mentioned it may be possible to setup a direct deduction to a brokerage firm to put it in some sort of index fund or funds. That's at least somewhat higher friction than they money being right in a checking account.

[mortenlarsen]

I can sell and have the money in my account in 2-4 days. It would off cause be a bit sad to sell at a loss right after a "crash" or correction of the market. But in an emergency, I could. I also keep 2 years worth of spending in the bank (we spend very little, so it is not as extreme as it sounds).

It should not really be needed, as I would get money from the government (enough to live on) if lost my job, and we have universal health-care where I live. But it gives me peace of mind.

[ghaff]

My comment was mostly about 401K/IRAs in that, once you put money in those, you mostly can't, without penalty, pull it out again before retirement. Even though regular brokerage accounts aren't instant, they're fine for an emergency fund.

[mortenlarsen]

Ok. That makes sense.

[zetsurin]

I never had your problem, so this might not work well for you, but maybe it will:

Write everything you spend money on down in a single place before you buy it. If you buy a book and pen to do this they can be your first entry.

Creating an awareness of what you spend money on gives you a chance to ask if you will value the thing as much as your impulses are telling you.

This goes generally, lots of self help people suggest keeping a diary, and reviewing it.

[Doxin]

One thing I did that helped me a lot is to set up an automatic transfer to a savings account on the day I get paid. That way I don't even see the money. I try to forget about the savings account as much as possible. I mentally file it away as "not my money".

It works much better for me than trying to save at the end of the month for me anyways.

[ta988]

That's exactly the kind of things I've seen CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapies) do miracles in short periods of time. It requires some dedication but I've never thought it would work so well on my friends and relatives.

[wincy]

I have a cognitive behavioral therapy workbook sitting unused on my bookshelf, maybe I’ll make use of it. Thanks.

[cowpig]

What you're describing sounds to me like a mental health issue. Sounds like you've hacked a dopamine reward loop and now can't stop it.

Have you tried therapy?

[wincy]

I have. Maybe I haven’t found the right one. I think cognitive behavioral therapy might help.

[sizzle]

For me it was getting married and having a shared account and a spouse who doesn’t have adhd impulse control. It will get better if you find someone who fills this void. Therapy is good until then, you need constant awareness of the issue to me able to throw up hurdles like blocking websites via iOS screen time functionality etc.

[pcthrowaway]

> I wish I could put money into an account that would then only disburse small amounts of it over the year, and I couldn’t override that.

This isn't financial advice, but what you want is definitely possible with defi and smart contracts. I'm not sure what in the ecosystem has this capability, but there's a good chance you can get a bit of interest too.

Just stay away from USDT if you're planning to have payouts happen over the long term; USDC would be a safer bet.

[astura]

Have you been to a doctor? There's a few mental illnesses that can be the cause.

[Viliam1234]

Others have already recommended therapy and I agree. I would also recommend loving-kindness mediation, and reading the book "Don't Shoot the Dog" to understand how brains work.

I could try giving you financial advice, but the problem is that you would not follow it, and we both know it. So instead, I will recommend a few tricks I use to make myself believe that I have less money than I actually have (which reduces the impulse to spend too much).

First, realize that "the money you have" is just a fiction anyway. Suppose you have a $100,000 mortgage, and $10,000 in your bank account. Does it mean you have $10,000 that you are free to spend? No, it actually means you have $90,000 debt. The number $10,000 is so misleading that the less you think about it, the better for you. (You have an option to reduce the fiction by making an advance payment to the mortgage. Perhaps you should do it when the feeling "I have too much money" becomes too strong.)

Perhaps you should get a second bank account, move some money from the first account there, and then forget that the second account exists. Even better, if possible, make it so that only your wife (or both of you together) can move money from the second account. Again, when the feeling "I have too much money" gets too strong, move some money from the first account to the second account, and then forget that you did this. (There should be no card associated with the second bank account.)

I am not American, so I don't know whether this would be a practical advice or a huge inconvenience for you, but don't use cards, always pay cash. With cards, paying is too easy, and the money is too virtual. Do you NOT want to simplify things you want to do less of! Keep between $100 and $500 in your purse, pay cash, and whenever you get below $100, take $400 more from an ATM. If you notice yourself visiting the ATM twice during the same week, you know you are spending too much. More importantly, this way your brain will learn to interpret "how much money do I have" as the amount in your purse, not the amount in your bank account (and definitely not the amount in your second bank account.)

Generally, the best way to get rid of a habit is to replace it with an alternative. "When you feel tempted to do X, do Y instead" is easier than "simply stop doing X". What could be a replacement for your Amazon scrolling? (Alternatively, could you somehow subvert the process, so that you e.g. scroll for awesome things, then you bookmark them in the browser, but you never actually buy them?) Could you read a book or watch a movie instead? Play a computer game (some ancient game, without loot boxes and stuff)? Learn to cook, or build furniture? (If it must be buying, could you add some artificial constraint, such as "I am going to find the most awesome thing below $5, and then I will buy it"?) Or maybe you could spend some time with people who have much less than you... and perhaps buy something genuinely useful for them. (As a side effect, thinking about other people's problems makes you think less about yourself. Think how many homeless people you could feed for that $5,000.)