[BLKNSLVR]

In this seemingly forever argument, it seems there is some nuance in that Palestine is not Hamas and vice versa. One of the perspectives as I understand it is that Hamas is actually a threat to the existence of Palestine; the militaristic behaviour undermines Palestinian efforts at independence (and this is an avenue for exploitation by those who don't want to see an independent Palestine).

It is a similar situation with Hezbollah in Lebanon.

You can argue that the government of Israel isn't the will of the people of Israel (in the same way the US government isn't the will of the people of the US), but in my opinion there's more of a separation between 'Palestine' and 'Hamas' than there is between 'Israel' and 'the will of the people of Israel'.

There's a lot of wrongdoing, which means there are a lot of innocents being harmed, and the harming of innocents is the greatest wrongdoing. Harm by inaction is also wrong. Harm by preventing aid and assistance is also wrong.

None of this stuff is easily answered.

The joys of ideology, or maybe more correctly, the joys of living amongst those who take ideology so seriously that they attempt to enforce their fantasies upon the real world.

In my personal logic bubble: Protesting in support of Palestine is not protesting in support of Hamas. Declaring support for Israel is protesting against Hamas and their acts of terrorism against Israel. I can do both of these things without being hypocritical (like I said, in my personal logic bubble).

[yodsanklai]

There's simply no excuse for what Israel has been doing and everyone with a functioning moral compass should be denouncing it. Debating about Hamas is a distraction. They have a right to defend their country, but not treating a whole population as collateral damage.

[BLKNSLVR]

I agree with your first sentence.

The rest is the messy middle around which negotiation is required for any form of minimal co-existence.

[stanleykm]

Israel has a right to defend itself, but Palestine does not?

[krembo]

It's easy to be very "moral" from far far away, yet I doubt you'd act differently if you were in Israel's shoes

[yodsanklai]

There are many Israelis who conclude that their country is conducting a genocide in gaza and ask for it to stop [1]. Conversely, there are people who are "far far away", who have access to the same information as everybody else and don't see any wrong doing, and support the destruction of Gaza and its inhabitants. I have a hard time understanding how anyone can think this is right, or maybe they don't know or don't believe what is actually taking place.

[1] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2025/07/israel-opt-is...

[krembo]

What happens in Gaza is first and foremost Hamas to blame, thus I hold zero empathy for the Gaza people, and second, nonetheless important, does not withstand any definition of the term "genocide". If Israel wanted to commit a genocide they would finish the job within a week, the fact that there are so many surgical operations and methods like "knock on the roof" shows Israel are doing their best efforts to avoid civilian casualties. Moreover, as the Palestinians are separated between Judea and Samaria and the Gaza strip, while the first are quiet and living in prosperity while the later are hostages of Hamas, it is a very weird way from Israel's point of view to make what you call genocide.

[za3faran]

israel has been documented countless times directly targeting civilians, including reporters, sniping women, children, sexual assault, the list goes on. It's a quick search away to see a very, very long list of war crimes.

https://www.reddit.com/r/israelexposed/

[yodsanklai]

> Israel are doing their best efforts to avoid civilian casualties.

According to wikipedia, there have been 80K people killed in Gaza, 80% are civilians, 30% are children.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war

> it is a very weird way from Israel's point of view to make what you call genocide.

It's not me who calls that a genocide. That's becoming the consensus on how it's being called outside of Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide

[krembo]

Based on WHO data which is based on The Palestinian Ministry of Health data. Well I guess this is one credible source of truth.

[philistine]

The fact we are not in Israel's shoes is the best hope for a negotiated durable peace. I cannot find a peace deal in the 20th century that did not have the studious support of a neutral third-party.

[seanmcdirmid]

Wait, you mean there is “no excuse for what Israel is doing” and “Hamas kidnapping and murdering Israelis” was just a distraction?

This is why we should just move on to EVs and stop getting involved at all in the Middle East. I see no morally right way of engaging with either side. Both positions seem to end in “let one side genocide the other side.”

[sillyfluke]

> Wait, you mean there is “no excuse for what Israel is doing” and “Hamas kidnapping and murdering Israelis” was just a distraction?

Wait, you mean the same Hamas that Israel knowingly funded, the same one Netanyahu bragged about funding?

[0]

"For years Netanyah propped up Hamas. Now it has blown up in our face."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...

[1]

"Netanyahu admits funding Hamas with $35m monthly Qatari cash."

https://dailytelegraph.co.nz/news/netanyahu-admits-funding-h...

[gmerc]

That’s not an excuse. Kidnapping is a police problem. Not a genocide problem.

[seanmcdirmid]

See, it’s statements like this that make me want to run away like heck from this.

Netanyahu is a hack, a war monger, all sorts of bad, but Palestinians continued support for Hamas and seeing large scale cross border kidnapping/murder as a “police issue”, it’s hard for me to feel sympathy.

So I bought an EV and that’s the end of it.

[basisword]

>> Palestinians continued support for Hamas

Have you ever stopped to think _why_ they might continue to support Hamas? The Israeli government (and many citizens) continue to take their land. Force them out of their homes. Treat them worse than animals. They can kill 70k people and face almost zero consequences internationally. They've got the backing of a superpower. If you were treated like that I'm sure you would plead for calm, peace, and love. If people are treated inhumanly on mass scale they will revolt because they feel like they have no other option.

[bulbar]

> The Israeli government (and many citizens) continue to take their land. Force them out of their homes.

People in the Westbank seem to mostly support Fatah, not Hamas.

I do generally agree though that the strength of Hamas was fueled by the dire situation of the population in Gaza and Israel's actions (before Oct 2023).

That must not mean that one should stand by the side of mass murderers. You can be against Israel's actions and for the Palestine people and still condemn Hamas' actions, and every sane person should.

They came into power and murdered their own people to consolidate their power. They are a terror organization. It's disturbing to me that many (not meaning you in particular) fail to understand that.

[seanclayton]

> it’s hard for me to feel sympathy.

That is a you problem, but the first step to improvement is acknowledgement, so kudos. An improved ability for sympathy is encouraged.

[gmerc]

The Epstein Class solution to turmoil of the soul - give Elon money instead

[seanmcdirmid]

Elon isn’t the only person selling EVs. I’m glad I’ve never given him money. We should just wash our hands of the Middle East though, maybe if the western world stops caring, all of the parties will come together and figure out a way forward that doesn’t involve killing each other.

[bulbar]

Hamas' mass murdering isn't a "police problem" whatever that's meant to mean and they are quite explicit in their goal of genocide of the Jewish population in the southern levante.

[stanleykm]

There seems to be a difference in capabilities here. Israel actually appears to be capable of eradicating Palestinians. The reverse does not appear to be true.

[bulbar]

They have always been capable of doing that and yet there are 20% Arabic citizen in Israel and roughly 2 million in Gaza. Before Hamas' mass murdering, there were no signs that Israel intends to mass murder Palestinians (they do of course obviously try to strategically reduce the population in Westbank with their settlements).

How many Jews would be allowed to live in the southern levante if Hamas could choose?

So yes, there has always been a difference in capability and in intend. Under the criminal Netanjahu and the current extremist Government the difference has started to blur, though and Oct 7 worked as a catalyst. It feels like Hamas' mass murdering and kidnapping was a full success regarding their goals.

[warumdarum]

And lets not forget that half of the attackers where just ordinary citizens of ghaza.

[gmerc]

All of the murderers in LA are ordinary citizens of LA, let’s mass bomb them.

[za3faran]

Claims without sources. The truth in fact, is eye opening to many israeli supporters:

https://x.com/incontextmedia/status/1720877046664986750

[TitaRusell]

Hamas is not the same as Palestinians.

But I understand that Israeli soldiers need justification to shoot at children and raise houses- just as Germans needed justification for their genocide.

[seanmcdirmid]

Hamas knows that and is willing to give Israeli army those excuses freely, they freely admitted that the whole point of the kidnappings and murders was to provoke Israeli into genocide, which in turn would provide world wide sympathy for their cause. Hamas will fight to the last Palestinian, which is sad.

Don’t get me wrong, Israel is not the good guy here, and Hamas is just taking advantage of their short fuse. Both sides are insane, which is why I think it’s better for us to just sit it out, the only thing we can do is make it worse.

[bulbar]

Hamas has been the government in Gaza for the last years, so I'm not sure what you want to say by stating the mass murdering by Hamas is a police problem.

[krembo]

Saying Israel is doing genocide is pure bs from uneducated people

[expedition32]

The argument that all Palestinans deserve to be genocided because of the actions of a terrorist organisation is so asinine that people should be ashamed of themselves.

It is the same reasoning Americans used for their war against the Apaches.

[sfifs]

I think Israel's leadership has very unwisely lost the Strategic plot here in favour of tactical political advantages of survival.

The history of middle East for the last 5000 years (since Sargon of Akkad) is replete with 'the king X "pacified" (the most commonly used euphemism) the people in the conquered territory'. It has never gone well for the victors under successors of king X, often within a generation or two.

In today's age when access to technology and information is such that any small sufficiently competent and motivated group can cause massive destruction, is it wise to keep creating motivated enemies and expect they will somehow never become competent or that the competent won't become motivated? It is doubly ironic given Israel's own defense industrial complex is filled with such small motivated and competent groups and the evidence of Ukraine/Russia conflict is staring in the face. This situation will blow up I fear within a generation unless Israeli society chooses different leaders.

[Sabinus]

I agree. Netanyahu's strategy of destroying the possibility for the 2 state solution just locks his country into a future of either apartheid, ethnic minority status, or eternal war against ever more sophisticated and hateful enemies.

None are futures he wants. I wonder what the long term vision is? If the Palestinians have a hard enough time they'll just migrate away faster than they have children?

[karmakurtisaani]

> One of the perspectives as I understand it is that Hamas is actually a threat to the existence of Palestine;

Don't forget that Israel financially supported Hamas for this exact reason.

[spwa4]

Why are there always so many conspiracy theories around the Israeli government. I mean, I'm sure one or two hold water. But the vast majority ...

And an even bigger mystery: why are there never conspiracy theories about hamas and the PLA? I mean, hamas is a conspiracy. There's no serious doubt about that. Obviously while there is a problem in Israel, Palestinians aren't behind hamas, unless they get very well paid. Many very bad state actors support Palestinian organizations, going back a loooong time. The PLA was created with the help of the KGB, imagine that. That's not a theory, that's a fact. Iran supports hamas. Qatar supports hamas. I mean, for hamas there's no doubt. It very much is a conspiracy, against Israel, against Jews (the KGB are the authors of "the protocols of the elders of zion" and the source of the whole Jews wanting to massacre the world theory) and against "the west" in general. China, massacres muslims and "reeducates" them in China, with hamas support btw, and supports hamas ... Do you think the KGB wants to support palestinians? Or muslims? Do you think China does? Do you think Iran wants to support Sunni religious nutcases? How do they treat those in Iran?

[karmakurtisaani]

Not a conspiracy theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas

A lot of shady stuff happens in the region. This is one of them and certainly something to be aware of.

> Do you think the KGB wants to support palestinians? Or muslims? Do you think China does? Do you think Iran wants to support Sunni religious nutcases? How do they treat those in Iran?

Why is it that every pro Israel comment is full of unrelated questions? My answer to all of these is: I don't care in this context.

[spwa4]

> Why is it that every pro Israel comment is full of unrelated questions? My answer to all of these is: I don't care in this context.

In other words, you're antisemitic. You don't care of a great many states that they have very bad intentions towards everyone, including Palestinians, you only care for conspiracy theories that say Jews do this too.

[karmakurtisaani]

No. That was the topic of discussion, so let's stick to that.

Edit: see, you already managed to derail the conversation AND call me an antisemite. Good job.

[spwa4]

> see, you already managed to derail the conversation AND call me an antisemite

Yes, the point was that you're only willing to discuss what Israel does wrong, and a conspiracy theory at that (yes, there's a core of truth. Yes, Israel protected Palestinian organizations from the PLA, including hamas. Dozens of them. No, Netanyahu did not arm hamas). How Israel can be blamed for everything. No other comments allowed!

The point is that when it comes to conspiracies, Palestinian organizations are supported clandestinely by foreign state actors with insincere and very bad motives (a hidden agenda if you will). Now THAT is a conspiracy. An actual, real, bona fide conspiracy. And with all the traditional horrible actors that you cannot in a million years imagine wanting to help anyone but themselves: Russia, China, the Qatarese royal family, Iran, ... None of them remotely care about the fate of sunni muslim nutcases like hamas, in fact most of these actors want to physically harm them. From massacring them (that's what Iran does), "reeducate" them, massacre them AND force them to fight wars ... that is what Palestinian supporters do to people they have control over that are similar to Palestinians. That is what this thread is supposed to be about. Why are these actors causing the Israel-Palestine issue?

You see the problem here? The worst possible thing that could happen to Palestinians, by far, is that they would achieve anything at all. That would cause their "supporters" to do to them what they always do. If Iran militarily controlled Palestine we would just hear "the military moved" (that's how the BBC reported it) and there was nobody left alive after prayers in 15 mosques, like Iran did in Zahedan and surroundings.

[donsupreme]

I am tired boss

[BLKNSLVR]

Tell me about it!

[xphos]

I mean the problem with this argument is that it is than transitively true than an entire people of any country with a crazy leader who bombs random countries in the middle east are inline and malovaent. I just disagree because that would imply the will of the US and its entire people is to bomb Palestine and Iran including these kids exiting there graduation. That argument just is factually debased. Collective blame of people for their government even in democracies just doesn't follow.

I agree that support for Palestine is not necessiarly support for Hamas and collective punishiment for Palestine from Hamas's actions is horrible but their is something to playing a useful idiot. And I think Israel and Palestine protesters both do this. Israel could 100% kill Hamas leadership and cause a democracy movement to elect a reasonable leadership in Palestine but they don't and don't want to. Palestine protesters actively persue a 1 state solution in its extreme to model it on the US and I don't think it works that way especially with such a vocal majority in Israel opposed to it. Hamas also don't really want a 2 state solution either because that would be real long term concessions and also a degradation of their authority because they are murders and losers but they are "protecting" some Palestians from Israel. Israel game here is they want prolong conflict and attacks like Oct. 7 because it justifies more annexation and attacks like Oct. 7 do give strong affimative arguments to take action against Hamas and Palestine whether you like it or not.

Long winded way of saying its a quagmire but if the US wanted to spend less and solve the problem they need to strong arm their ally to engage in generating a democractic uprising against Hamas in exchange for concessions of land (mostly settler land) after a new democratic state reins in their radicals. I think Palestians would jump at that idea but Hamas would be extremely anti that idea because they would be the pariah in their society. Its pragamtic solution but also 1 that requires long term follow through that is also likely to fail. To me that the Kotkin approach no one is happy but progress is possible

[TiredOfLife]

> Protesting in support of Palestine is not protesting in support of Hamas.

Yet every Palestine support protest includes Hamas symbols and chants to exterminate a certain group of people.

[BLKNSLVR]

One MAGA hat at a Republican rally doesn't mean all Republicans are MAGA.

If anything is to be learnt, it is that individuals should be judged as individuals, or at least that individuals should not be judged by the worst actions of a group that they may (only appear to) be a part of.

A good way for "one side" to trivialise or demonise "the other side" would be to seed "the other side" with extremist messaging.

[dzhiurgis]

IDK, but a "pretty soon it's a nazi bar" fable kinda fits here.

It's insane how universities are so chill when students literally call for genocide of Jews.

[cultofmetatron]

> It's insane how universities are so chill when students literally call for genocide of Jews.

where exactly have students "literally" called for genocide of jews?

The only people I've heard the "kill them all" mentality blatently to my face so far have been pro israel zionists.

[keypusher]

Hamas has been the democratically elected government of Palestine since 2006. That was the year after Israel pulled all their military out of Gaza.

[mptest]

"democratically elected" being an extremely load bearing sentiment if you know anything about what people's lives are actually like on the ground. did you know a large majority of the populace didn't even vote in 2006? since 2006? there hasn't been elections since. The median age is 18.

Pulled all their military out? Oh, they still controlled their airspace, critical infra, borders tho? Sounds very self determined!

Serious, bad faith or extremely reductive misrepresentation that I can't tell is borne from ignorance willful or accidental.

your comment is the equivalent of acting like cuba's economy is all their own choosing, without analyzing the immense damage sanctions (and why sanctions were there in the first place) have done to the country, or accosting haiti without knowing why their struggles exist. context matters.

[crote]

2006 is 20(!) years ago, the elections had a 70% turnout, and Hamas received only 44% of the vote.

Considering that about 60% of the Gaza population is age 20 or younger, that means about 18% of the current population voted for Hamas.

And of course Israel directly helped this by arresting a huge number of Hamas politicians right before the elections, and openly interfering with the election process in general.

So no, Hamas does not represent the will of the people in Gaza, and calling it "democratically elected" is at this point a straight-up lie.

[piva00]

Support for Hamas also came from Netanyahu[0], he explicitly gave support to be used as wedge for the Palestinian cause, to perpetuate the conflict giving casus belli to Israeli actions against Palestinians in Gaza.

[0] https://www.972mag.com/netanyahu-hamas-october-7-adam-raz/

[citadel_melon]

This argument you make is the same one Osama bin Laden uses in his 2004 “Letter to the American People”: he argues that because the American people re-elected George W. Bush, the populace was complicit in the policy consequences, self-rationalizing 2001.

Congratulations for using a heuristic that resulted in 9/11! Osama’s rationalization at least had a more accurate premise that the American people continued to be able to vote — unlike in Palestine. So congrats on having either a worse moral compass or worse reasoning skills than Bin Laden!

[mthoms]

That's a weird way of saying there hasn't been an election in 20 years.

[paulddraper]

> it seems there is some nuance in that Palestine is not Hamas and vice versa

That's like saying the Nazis were not Germany and vice versa.

That is technically correct.

Hamas governs Palestine (to be precise, Gaza).

[mvdtnz]

Hamas also has widespread support within Palestine. Overwhelmingly the population of Palestine supports the actions of October 7. There is no clean separation between Palestine and Hamas, as much as one side wants you to believe there is.

[ameminator]

I mostly agree, except for the blatant calls for genocide from the Israeli side, and the blatant calls for genocide from the Palestinian side. I honestly don't know who to support - neither side wants to live with the other, and it seems, eventually, one of those sides will get their wish. To the detriment of us all.

[jmyeet]

No, it's actually really simple. You start with these two questions:

1. Is Israel an apartheid state?

2. Is Israel committing a genocide?

At this point (IMHO) you need to do some serious mental gymnastics not to answer "yes" to both questions. As soon as you do, it gets real simple. The existence of Hamas doesn't justify either of these things.

The people who bring this up are engaging in respectability politics or engaging in weaponized cvility. Instead of addressing the underlying issues, the focus is on the methods and the actions of the oppressed when it is the oppressor that sets the level of violence. As Nelson Mandela put it:

> A freedom fighter learns the hard way that it is the oppressor who defines the nature of the struggle, and the oppressed is often left no recourse but to use methods that mirror those of the oppressor. At a certain point, one can only fight fire with fire.

People understood this quite clearly with apartheid South Africa. Can you imagine protesters having to do the performative "does apartheid South Africa have a right to exist?" pledge? No, me neither.

[ameminator]

While I actually have sympathy for people on both sides of the struggle, I also find it hard to answer "yes" to both questions, mostly because of how muddied the definitions of everything are. It's obvious to me, that both the Israeli government and Hamas are both committing serious warcrimes, and that there no good actors here, here are some questions I don't have an answer to.

For example, is Palestine its own country? Is Hamas is its rightful government? Does that extend to the West Bank or only in Gaza? Palestinians seem to say that Palestine is its own country, Israelis say that Palestinians are not a part of Israel - so how can it be an apartheid state if BOTH sides say they aren't part of the same country at all?

Is Israel committing a genocide? Well, what does a genocide look like? Israel is still distributing food in Gaza, to this day. I don't think it would look like this, but at the same time, there are terrorists on both sides (Itamar ben-Gvir being the most prominent on the Israeli side, in my opinion).

There are more issues and questions and uncertainty around the problems in Israel, Palestine, the Levant as a whole, Iran's involvement and so on.

Even worse, for most Israelis (who are 70% of Arab descent), the country of Israel no longer existing could mean a real genocide for the Israel side! (A counter-genocide?) Regardless, if this issue were easy to solve, it would have been solved already.

Honestly, the situation seems to complicated to boil down to two "simple" questions and I admire that you can have such an "obvious" outlook, but the more I look at Israel and the Middle East (and read, and research), the more questions I have.

[jmyeet]

The definitions aren't muddled. Apartheid [1] and genocide [2] are both defined by the UN. Apartheid in particular is also objectively true. Do Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Jewish Israelis? No, objectively [3][4].

As for Palestine being its own country, it clearly isn't. Palestinians live on land claimed by Israel and recognized by pretty much every country in the world. But what if it was? Then Israel is illegally occupying it. Is that better? Why does this matter? Does one make the treatment of Gazans (in particular) more acceptable?

> Even worse, for most Israelis (who are 70% of Arab descent), the country of Israel no longer existing could mean a real genocide for the Israel side!

You can't use a theoretical future genocide to justify a current actual genocide. Also, it's ahistorical. Did this happen when apartheid South Africa ended? What about slavery? No, what actually happened was the former oppressors continued to commit violence against the previously oppressed.

[1]: https://legal.un.org/avl/ha/cspca/cspca.html

[2]: https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/...

[3]: https://decolonizepalestine.com/myth/all-israelis-are-equal/

[4]: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-...

[ameminator]

While I appreciate your candor, words matter. I wouldn't call Israel an apartheid state if, in fact, it was two different countries warring to the death over not enough land. I think that situation is closer to reality, with the "victorious" side refusing to completely destroy the loser and the loser refusing to surrender to the "victor".

That situation has changed for the worse in recent years, and the world should step in, if it can. How the world should step in is not obvious - especially if the thorny history of the region is considered.

Finally, on the "current vs future 'genocides'" - dismissing Israel's legitimate security concerns would be as wrong as dismissing Israel's obvious warcrimes, in my opinion. I can't, in good conscience, advocate for action that would replace one genocide with another and it's important to me to consider my actions and words in that light. You may think differently, but maybe you value human life and morality differently than I do.

It's obvious you've made up your mind, but I don't think you've convinced anyone who hasn't already made up their mind, nor have you addressed, what I believe, are very valid questions about the conflict.

[bulbar]

What do people think Hamas would do if Israel was defenseless?

I find the level of denial disturbing. It's not like Hamas has always ruled over Gaza, they stayed in power by force.

Why do people struggle to acknowledge political elites on both sides are evil?

[kibibu]

Yes, Israel is unequivocally committing genocide in Gaza. Genocide is not just "are they killing everybody", but also "are they driving people from their ancestral homelands"?

Israel is constitutionally an ethnostate. If there is an existing population, there is literally no way to establish an ethnostate without genocide - either through killing or displacement.

[kyboren]

> Genocide is not just "are they killing everybody", but also "are they driving people from their ancestral homelands"?

Which is obviously why "Free Palestine" marchers regularly show their solidarity with the Germans genocided by Poland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_German...

Free Danzig! Down with the settler colonialist genocidal state of Poland!!1

[Computer0]

Hamas is good. Supporting Hamas is not bad. The US military has done exponentially worse things.