[yodsanklai]

There's simply no excuse for what Israel has been doing and everyone with a functioning moral compass should be denouncing it. Debating about Hamas is a distraction. They have a right to defend their country, but not treating a whole population as collateral damage.

[BLKNSLVR]

I agree with your first sentence.

The rest is the messy middle around which negotiation is required for any form of minimal co-existence.

[stanleykm]

Israel has a right to defend itself, but Palestine does not?

[philipallstar]

Palestine attacked, and has attacked for ages, because they and other surrounding countries have a stated long term aim to wipe Jews off the face of the earth.

It's like if people in Wales were constantly firing rockets at London because they wanted to destroy all English people, and England doing nothing about it for years until there was a huge slaughter, and then finally retaliating.

[mcmcmc]

> It's like if people in Wales were constantly firing rockets at London because they wanted to destroy all English people, and England doing nothing about it for years until there was a huge slaughter, and then finally retaliating.

Or just like the IRA… asymmetric warfare/terrorism is a natural response to violent oppression

[seanclayton]

That is one perspective. Would you accept that there are other, equally valid, perspectives which challenge the one you repeated?

[philistine]

People are appropriately scouring your position because there was exactly what you are imagining: a population, living West of the rest of the UK, lobbing terrorist attacks at London. It's just that it was the Irish, not the Welsh, doing the attacks. History has given reason to the IRA's despicable methods; once the British got tired of the unionists' intransigeance, they sat down at the negotiation table and hammered a real deal to really end the violence.

The Palestinians engaged in violent warfare against the Israelis studiously study the IRA and the results they got. So your example is actually an example that proves that the Palestinians' methods could lead to success for them. You'll have to try again.

[za3faran]

Who said their aim is to "wipe jews off the face of the earth"? Always claims without citations. The reality is quite different however[1]

[1] https://x.com/incontextmedia/status/1720877046664986750

[propagandist]

Counterpoint: https://youtube.com/shorts/3jdONbR7rcI

If you want to know how we got where we are, look up Tantura.

[krembo]

It's easy to be very "moral" from far far away, yet I doubt you'd act differently if you were in Israel's shoes

[philistine]

The fact we are not in Israel's shoes is the best hope for a negotiated durable peace. I cannot find a peace deal in the 20th century that did not have the studious support of a neutral third-party.

[yodsanklai]

There are many Israelis who conclude that their country is conducting a genocide in gaza and ask for it to stop [1]. Conversely, there are people who are "far far away", who have access to the same information as everybody else and don't see any wrong doing, and support the destruction of Gaza and its inhabitants. I have a hard time understanding how anyone can think this is right, or maybe they don't know or don't believe what is actually taking place.

[1] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2025/07/israel-opt-is...

[krembo]

What happens in Gaza is first and foremost Hamas to blame, thus I hold zero empathy for the Gaza people, and second, nonetheless important, does not withstand any definition of the term "genocide". If Israel wanted to commit a genocide they would finish the job within a week, the fact that there are so many surgical operations and methods like "knock on the roof" shows Israel are doing their best efforts to avoid civilian casualties. Moreover, as the Palestinians are separated between Judea and Samaria and the Gaza strip, while the first are quiet and living in prosperity while the later are hostages of Hamas, it is a very weird way from Israel's point of view to make what you call genocide.

[yodsanklai]

> Israel are doing their best efforts to avoid civilian casualties.

According to wikipedia, there have been 80K people killed in Gaza, 80% are civilians, 30% are children.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war

> it is a very weird way from Israel's point of view to make what you call genocide.

It's not me who calls that a genocide. That's becoming the consensus on how it's being called outside of Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide

[za3faran]

israel has been documented countless times directly targeting civilians, including reporters, sniping women, children, sexual assault, the list goes on. It's a quick search away to see a very, very long list of war crimes.

https://www.reddit.com/r/israelexposed/

[seanmcdirmid]

Wait, you mean there is “no excuse for what Israel is doing” and “Hamas kidnapping and murdering Israelis” was just a distraction?

This is why we should just move on to EVs and stop getting involved at all in the Middle East. I see no morally right way of engaging with either side. Both positions seem to end in “let one side genocide the other side.”

[sillyfluke]

> Wait, you mean there is “no excuse for what Israel is doing” and “Hamas kidnapping and murdering Israelis” was just a distraction?

Wait, you mean the same Hamas that Israel knowingly funded, the same one Netanyahu bragged about funding?

[0]

"For years Netanyah propped up Hamas. Now it has blown up in our face."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...

[1]

"Netanyahu admits funding Hamas with $35m monthly Qatari cash."

https://dailytelegraph.co.nz/news/netanyahu-admits-funding-h...

[gmerc]

That’s not an excuse. Kidnapping is a police problem. Not a genocide problem.

[seanmcdirmid]

See, it’s statements like this that make me want to run away like heck from this.

Netanyahu is a hack, a war monger, all sorts of bad, but Palestinians continued support for Hamas and seeing large scale cross border kidnapping/murder as a “police issue”, it’s hard for me to feel sympathy.

So I bought an EV and that’s the end of it.

[seanclayton]

> it’s hard for me to feel sympathy.

That is a you problem, but the first step to improvement is acknowledgement, so kudos. An improved ability for sympathy is encouraged.

[basisword]

>> Palestinians continued support for Hamas

Have you ever stopped to think _why_ they might continue to support Hamas? The Israeli government (and many citizens) continue to take their land. Force them out of their homes. Treat them worse than animals. They can kill 70k people and face almost zero consequences internationally. They've got the backing of a superpower. If you were treated like that I'm sure you would plead for calm, peace, and love. If people are treated inhumanly on mass scale they will revolt because they feel like they have no other option.

[gmerc]

The Epstein Class solution to turmoil of the soul - give Elon money instead

[seanmcdirmid]

Elon isn’t the only person selling EVs. I’m glad I’ve never given him money. We should just wash our hands of the Middle East though, maybe if the western world stops caring, all of the parties will come together and figure out a way forward that doesn’t involve killing each other.

[bulbar]

Hamas' mass murdering isn't a "police problem" whatever that's meant to mean and they are quite explicit in their goal of genocide of the Jewish population in the southern levante.

[stanleykm]

There seems to be a difference in capabilities here. Israel actually appears to be capable of eradicating Palestinians. The reverse does not appear to be true.

[warumdarum]

And lets not forget that half of the attackers where just ordinary citizens of ghaza.

[za3faran]

Claims without sources. The truth in fact, is eye opening to many israeli supporters:

https://x.com/incontextmedia/status/1720877046664986750

[TitaRusell]

Hamas is not the same as Palestinians.

But I understand that Israeli soldiers need justification to shoot at children and raise houses- just as Germans needed justification for their genocide.

[bulbar]

Hamas has been the government in Gaza for the last years, so I'm not sure what you want to say by stating the mass murdering by Hamas is a police problem.

[dzhiurgis]

18 years IIRC. Entire generation has been raised with one and single mission - destroy Israel. Yes Hamas isn't Palestine, same way Trump isn't America. But it's pretty damn close.

[seanmcdirmid]

Hamas knows that and is willing to give Israeli army those excuses freely, they freely admitted that the whole point of the kidnappings and murders was to provoke Israeli into genocide, which in turn would provide world wide sympathy for their cause. Hamas will fight to the last Palestinian, which is sad.

Don’t get me wrong, Israel is not the good guy here, and Hamas is just taking advantage of their short fuse. Both sides are insane, which is why I think it’s better for us to just sit it out, the only thing we can do is make it worse.

[krembo]

Saying Israel is doing genocide is pure bs from uneducated people

[expedition32]

The argument that all Palestinans deserve to be genocided because of the actions of a terrorist organisation is so asinine that people should be ashamed of themselves.

It is the same reasoning Americans used for their war against the Apaches.