[seanmcdirmid]

Wait, you mean there is “no excuse for what Israel is doing” and “Hamas kidnapping and murdering Israelis” was just a distraction?

This is why we should just move on to EVs and stop getting involved at all in the Middle East. I see no morally right way of engaging with either side. Both positions seem to end in “let one side genocide the other side.”

[sillyfluke]

> Wait, you mean there is “no excuse for what Israel is doing” and “Hamas kidnapping and murdering Israelis” was just a distraction?

Wait, you mean the same Hamas that Israel knowingly funded, the same one Netanyahu bragged about funding?

[0]

"For years Netanyah propped up Hamas. Now it has blown up in our face."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...

[1]

"Netanyahu admits funding Hamas with $35m monthly Qatari cash."

https://dailytelegraph.co.nz/news/netanyahu-admits-funding-h...

[gmerc]

That’s not an excuse. Kidnapping is a police problem. Not a genocide problem.

[seanmcdirmid]

See, it’s statements like this that make me want to run away like heck from this.

Netanyahu is a hack, a war monger, all sorts of bad, but Palestinians continued support for Hamas and seeing large scale cross border kidnapping/murder as a “police issue”, it’s hard for me to feel sympathy.

So I bought an EV and that’s the end of it.

[basisword]

>> Palestinians continued support for Hamas

Have you ever stopped to think _why_ they might continue to support Hamas? The Israeli government (and many citizens) continue to take their land. Force them out of their homes. Treat them worse than animals. They can kill 70k people and face almost zero consequences internationally. They've got the backing of a superpower. If you were treated like that I'm sure you would plead for calm, peace, and love. If people are treated inhumanly on mass scale they will revolt because they feel like they have no other option.

[bulbar]

> The Israeli government (and many citizens) continue to take their land. Force them out of their homes.

People in the Westbank seem to mostly support Fatah, not Hamas.

I do generally agree though that the strength of Hamas was fueled by the dire situation of the population in Gaza and Israel's actions (before Oct 2023).

That must not mean that one should stand by the side of mass murderers. You can be against Israel's actions and for the Palestine people and still condemn Hamas' actions, and every sane person should.

They came into power and murdered their own people to consolidate their power. They are a terror organization. It's disturbing to me that many (not meaning you in particular) fail to understand that.

[basisword]

>> That must not mean that one should stand by the side of mass murderers

The problem is that this is so ambiguous it took me a minute to work out who you meant. The mass murderers you're referring to have murdered many fewer people than the other side. They have done some heinous things but they're only a 'terror organisation' because their crimes aren't sanctioned by a state. A state which has also reportedly done many heinous things. My point being, if Israel were not so supported by the West I think we would look at both sides of this conflict with disgust.

[bulbar]

That's possible, but isn't a counter argument to my point - not sure if it was intended as one though.

For the people in the southern levante to live in peace, Hamas must be overcome as well as Netanjahu and his clique.

[seanclayton]

> it’s hard for me to feel sympathy.

That is a you problem, but the first step to improvement is acknowledgement, so kudos. An improved ability for sympathy is encouraged.

[gmerc]

The Epstein Class solution to turmoil of the soul - give Elon money instead

[seanmcdirmid]

Elon isn’t the only person selling EVs. I’m glad I’ve never given him money. We should just wash our hands of the Middle East though, maybe if the western world stops caring, all of the parties will come together and figure out a way forward that doesn’t involve killing each other.

[Sabinus]

Without Western support Iran and the proxies will choke Israel until either they make concessions to the Palestinians (which can be a very good thing, depending on the concessions demanded), or Israel gets backed into a corner and either really does a genocide, or drops a (hopefully only tactical) nuke.

The most likely best future is when Western support is predicated on making decent concessions to the Palestinians. I'm not in the position to say what they are at the moment but more autonomy for the Palestinian state proposed in Oslo would be a good start.

[bulbar]

Hamas' mass murdering isn't a "police problem" whatever that's meant to mean and they are quite explicit in their goal of genocide of the Jewish population in the southern levante.

[stanleykm]

There seems to be a difference in capabilities here. Israel actually appears to be capable of eradicating Palestinians. The reverse does not appear to be true.

[bulbar]

They have always been capable of doing that and yet there are 20% Arabic citizen in Israel and roughly 2 million in Gaza. Before Hamas' mass murdering, there were no signs that Israel intends to mass murder Palestinians (they do of course obviously try to strategically reduce the population in Westbank with their settlements).

How many Jews would be allowed to live in the southern levante if Hamas could choose?

So yes, there has always been a difference in capability and in intend. Under the criminal Netanjahu and the current extremist Government the difference has started to blur, though and Oct 7 worked as a catalyst. It feels like Hamas' mass murdering and kidnapping was a full success regarding their goals.

[warumdarum]

And lets not forget that half of the attackers where just ordinary citizens of ghaza.

[gmerc]

All of the murderers in LA are ordinary citizens of LA, let’s mass bomb them.

[warumdarum]

If they had the ideology of ethnically cleansing / enslaving all other religions in north america (aka literal nazis) yeah lets go. Worldwsr 2 was about that! Dont have to be successful to be evil!

[bulbar]

Palestinians crossed a border to murder and kidnap people. What would the USA do if 5.000 Mexicans, many of them on an official mission by the Mexican government, would come to the US and murder a thousand US citizen and kidnap 250 of them?

[warumdarum]

After they gave back new mexico to get peace.

[za3faran]

Claims without sources. The truth in fact, is eye opening to many israeli supporters:

https://x.com/incontextmedia/status/1720877046664986750

[TitaRusell]

Hamas is not the same as Palestinians.

But I understand that Israeli soldiers need justification to shoot at children and raise houses- just as Germans needed justification for their genocide.

[seanmcdirmid]

Hamas knows that and is willing to give Israeli army those excuses freely, they freely admitted that the whole point of the kidnappings and murders was to provoke Israeli into genocide, which in turn would provide world wide sympathy for their cause. Hamas will fight to the last Palestinian, which is sad.

Don’t get me wrong, Israel is not the good guy here, and Hamas is just taking advantage of their short fuse. Both sides are insane, which is why I think it’s better for us to just sit it out, the only thing we can do is make it worse.

[bulbar]

Hamas has been the government in Gaza for the last years, so I'm not sure what you want to say by stating the mass murdering by Hamas is a police problem.

[dzhiurgis]

18 years IIRC. Entire generation has been raised with one and single mission - destroy Israel. Yes Hamas isn't Palestine, same way Trump isn't America. But it's pretty damn close.

[bulbar]

Stating that most Palestinian support the Hamas and their actions is a very big accusation, but your have not provided much evidence for that.

I have read some poll results from years ago and don't have deeper knowledge of the topic, just saying one would be to provide real evidence.

And that's only talking about Gaza. Since you said "Palestine" it should be mentioned that Hamas had not been able to dominate in the Westbank so far, so I don't think what you wrote is accurate.

[krembo]

Saying Israel is doing genocide is pure bs from uneducated people