[brodsky]

When we upgraded our appliances, the "smart" or "wifi-enabled" ones were specifically avoided like the plague. "Dumb" appliances - especially fridges, for some reason - are becoming hard to come by, but they do exist. Electrolux, KitchenAid, even LG all make some no-frills models that can save both money and frustration. Hopefully those companies continue serving the "luddite techie" market.

[arter4]

Yes, I agree. I'm not a luddite per se - heck, I make a living out of making stuff talk to one another on a network. But I don't get the appeal, from a customer standpoint, of having all physical objects talk to you or to the Internet. Like, why?

I get it when it comes to alarm systems. Being able to get a notification when someone breaks in is nice, because the alarm system is mostly doing its job when you're not at home. It makes sense.

What it does not make sense, in my humble opinion, is pretty much everything else. Why do I need voice activated lights, outside of a cool party trick ("hey, I can turn the lights on with my voice")? Why should a vacuum cleaner, even if a robot one, be able to upload a picture of a woman on the toilet to the Internet (which has actually happened)? Why should the fridge talk to you?

Ironically, this kind of stuff might become less and less appealing with remote working. If you're at home anyway, can't you just stand up and look at the fridge or turn that light on?

[AndrewDavis]

Even appliances that aren't internet connected are going down this terrible UX path.

My old washing machine had nobs (dials) you turn. You put the clothes and soap in, close the door and press the button. My preference of type of wash and water temperature were all "saved" by the nob position.

My current washing machine, nob is type of wash, capacitive touch buttons for everything else. Keeping the nob "on" keeps the digital display on and consuming power. And the wash options like temperature, extra rinse etc are all controlled digitally with no memory. Want 60 degrees water? Press the water temperature button 8 times, each with a delay of about 3/4 of a second for it to register before a press works again. It's utterly terrible.

[SoftTalker]

I like solid-state controls for my laundry and dishwashing machines. The old mechanical gear-and-cam type of controls were troublesome in my experience.

However I agree on the complexity. I deliberately buy appliance with as few optoins as possible. My dishwasher has two cycles: normal or heavy-duty, and one more option for heat or air dry. It has a single button to start/stop. If you just load it and press start, it runs the last cycle chosen.

My washer and dryer (LG) have some more options but if you just load them and press Start they run the "normal" cycle which is what I want 90% of the time. Simple.

Do not want internet-connected appliances with apps and excessive features.

I'll never again have a water line connected to my refrigerator. They eventually leak and in one case did significant damage to the floor before I noticed. For cold water, keep a pitcher in the fridge. For ice, use ice trays. Simple and they always work.

[ongytenes]

From my experience, the somewhat clear plastic tubing that is often used is subject to becoming brittle and crack over time. I replaced mine with copper. Haven't had any problem since with it.

[nextos]

Also you can't operate e.g. a dishwasher with kitchen gloves now, as those silly touchscreens won't cooperate. Few brands know how to keep it simple. Even Miele and Liebherr are falling into these absurd trends.

[Liftyee]

Can't believe that none of these designers thought that one might want to use a kitchen appliance with gloves on before slapping capacitive touch on everything...

[TeMPOraL]

It's market efficiency at work: appliances are well past the point of being good enough, they're now being optimized to the point of being as shit as they can be without becoming unsellable.

Capacitive touch buttons became cheaper than mechanical buttons. That's why they're suddenly on everything now.

[asystole]

Unrelated, but the word knob has a k in it. :)

[hansvm]

It's shrinkflation in action.

[em-bee]

ISMO on silent letters: https://youtu.be/dBpMlRmkV1Q

[tlonny]

My kitchen stove is touch screen. Totally non-functional when it gets wet. Brilliant UX.

[xanderlewis]

> nobs (dials)

You just made me realise Americans don’t use the word ‘knob’… or do they?

[yarekt]

knobs are more expensive :(

[account42]

Yes, but we are talking about saving cents on hundreds of dollars here. We really need to come up with better ways to make companies bear the cost of their shitty cost cutting measures.

[brabel]

> Why do I need voice activated lights, outside of a cool party trick ("hey, I can turn the lights on with my voice")?

It's actually very convenient :) I hated when I forgot to turn some light off and had to get out of bed just to flip it. And you don't need Internet for that, just a local hub with voice recognition (though most off the shelf stuff does everything it can for you to go with Google/Apple systems, which do need to be connected all the time - besides requiring you to be logged in at all times for no benefit to you, obviously just so they can either sell your data or to ensure you're properly locked in and can deny you service if you somehow get out of line).

My heat pump does require Internet, though. Apparently the firmware must self-update continuously and you can probably be denied warranty if you don't let it do so. But at least there are genuine use cases: it can monitor the electricity prices with 1-day in advance, so it can "plan" the best time to power up and down to save electricity (at least they say it does it)... and it can control the temperature better as the temperature outside goes up and down, knowing it beforehand via weather forecasts. But of course, to actually control the machine via the app requires a paid feature :D no thanks.

[lelandfe]

> Why do I need voice activated lights

My parents are getting older. Their knees appreciate being able to tell Siri to turn off the downstairs lights from upstairs.

[alwa]

This was what made me understand the voice-activated stuff too. I hadn’t appreciated, until hanging around with more people enduring the indignities of aging, how even trivial physical tasks become ordeals.

[ongytenes]

My friends are getting old and I bought them remote control for lights this Christmas that don't require an internet connection.

[beebeepka]

it would be easier to turn off the lights when leaving the floor/room. Sadly, that seems to be too much effort for modern humans

[naravara]

The lights make some sense in that you may not want to walk to another corner of your house, or up and down stairs to be able to turn them on or off. Similar functions, like smart locks or blinds or ovens also let you have some peace of mind to make sure you’ve got everything in the On/Off state you need it to be in.

Though personally I think we’re barking up the wrong tree by trying to smarten up every appliance. The objective of having remote control/sensing of all your stuff would be better achieved by having a single robot “butler” that can check on state and interface with everything, but the appliances themselves should be simple and easily controllable. As long as there’s a universal communications standard for all devices to be able to communicate with the “butler” the mechanical interfacing could basically be designed in as accessibility features. That way the software and smart capabilities are all in one package that can be upgraded or modified instead of scattered across a bunch of individual things that are expensive to replace or repair.

I’m basically imagining a drone that runs around the house along a rail track on the ceiling and has a little dongle it can plug into devices to control them like Star Wars droids. Bonus points if the method of control is purely mechanical without needing much computing power in the appliance at all.

The reason this will never happen, of course, is obvious. You’ll never get everyone to retrofit their houses for a robo-rail.

[Liftyee]

Perhaps instead of rails you could go for a flying quadcopter-drone with some sort of manipulator arm. If it was light it could even land and charge from the same ports it uses to communicate with appliances.

Of course if any big FAANG-company does this expect it to be beaming everything it sees straight up to the cloud. Amazon already tried this with their Ring security drone.

[naravara]

The issues with drones is it takes energy to stay aloft and you’ll be introducing weight limits. It’ll also become a target for pet owners. Cats, in particular, will swat them down.

[cqqxo4zV46cp]

I control my lights with my voice practically all the time. It’s easily my primary mode of changing the state of my lights. Whenever I travel it only takes an hour tops after entering a hotel for me to get annoyed by whatever command I’ve yelled out being met with silence.

I say this because maybe it goes to show that different people are different. Maybe someone gets use out of the silly camera that shows them the inside of the fridge. It sounds ridiculous to me, but evidently my lights sound ridiculous to you.

[darreninthenet]

Fridge/freezer one is handy for temperature and door open alarms

[arter4]

Yes, but how often do you experience power outages or other things that lead to weird temperature changes? I think in the last 15 years it only happened to me once.

And how often does a fridge door open on its own? Most people don't need other people (or things) to remind them that they should tie their shoes before getting out. If you don't need that, I assume you know you should close the fridge door.

[windock]

In Ukraine last year we had scheduled blackouts. Let me tell you about the joy of waking up every other night to reset temperature alarm of the fridge. It could not be disabled, and it would beep for hours. My neighbors were not pleased when I was not at home for a week.

[windock]

And that cheap beeping sound of every appliance is just so obnoxious. You want to wash laundry overnight to lessen load on electricity generation during blackouts? It would beep for 30 minutes when it is done. No way to disable it but to wake up and turn the button. When everyone does it, the whole apartment complex is filled with beeping sounds all night.

I prefer the sound of air alarm now.

[inferiorhuman]

  Yes, but how often do you experience power outages … I think in the last
  15 years it only happened to me once.

You must not live in Texas or California.

  or other things that lead to weird temperature changes?

You're a lot more upbeat on current fridge reliability than I am. LG lost a class action suit regarding their junk "linear" compressors a few years ago, and despite multiple supposed revisions you can still find appliance repair folks badmouthing their current crop of linear compressors on youtube. To the best of my knowledge, my vile LG ex-fridge didn't have a linear compressor, but it did have a habit of icing up the evap coils until the fucking thing couldn't keep the temp down. LG sent a tech out twice, he couldn't figure it out. I got tired of throwing out food and tired of ice buildup hitting the fan and making an absolute cacophony in the middle of the night… so they finally bought it back.

I've seen some grumblings that the switch (in the US) to R600 is killing durability, but I'm not sure I buy that. If you dig through some of the service literature out there you'll see that companies across the board are also cheapening the sealed systems (e.g. aluminum replacing copper).

  you know you should close the fridge door.

A common complaint about my current fridge is that the doors do not close on their own. The detent is wicked strong. I suspect you'd have to tilt it back to an uncomfortable degree to overcome it. E.g. the door probably wouldn't stay open at all on its own.

[StillBored]

Its not just their linear compressors, its the fact that they use very thin aluminum tubing on the high side, and apparently have had assembly issues where weld material has splattered on the tubes, which after a bit of thermal cycling (or maybe its just galvanic corrosion) they start leaking.

I to had a LG refrigerator declared "unfixable" and bought back by LG, but I actually decided they were idiots and fixed it myself after having not only their local repair people fail to fix it, but the "expert" from LG's regional center come out and diagnose it. (It should be noted that he diagnosed the condenser, the only part not already replaced at that point, and that failed to fix it so, they declared it unfixable).

Turns out in my case, the leak was in the yoder loop, a modern trick for increasing the efficiency of a refrigerator by running a high pressure refrigerant line around the doors to avoid needing electric defrost loops (what pretty much every fridge made pre ~2005 or so has).

And since the yoder loop is embedded in the spray foam insulation between the exterior and interior of the fridge is is largely unrepairable because the insulation would have to be destroyed and somehow partially refilled, which wouldn't be possible without adding a bunch of access holes/etc to the exterior.

So, I bypassed it, as a "research project" before buying another fridge, something the LG folks told me wouldn't work, and the tech refused to do. Which funny enough i'm an EPA certified small appliance repair tech (don't ask! lol) so, it apparently is just up my alley. And guess what 5 years later is still going. I've had to manually defrost the ice maker fan once in that timeframe and it does tend to get some condensation build up on the bottom of the french doors, but nothing that wipeing it away every few days doens't solve.

As an additional bit of fun, this refrigerator has a steel condenser and both aluminum as well as copper tubing/fittings.

[inferiorhuman]

Yeah I had a top freezer model, something that should be dead nuts simple and yet everything was still electronically controlled. That means you've got all sorts of onboard diagnostics. Even so the LG tech couldn't figure out the problem. In general though I can totally get why someone employed by the manufacturer wouldn't want to go off script. Too much liability.

One of many problems with LG is that they seem to have a rotating cast of metrics driven clowns running LG America. Junking a fridge is almost certainly more cost effective than spending the time to fix it, train their techs in depth, and get their logistics in order. The tech that came out had previously worked for GE and had worse things to say about their brand of chaos.

Funny enough the Whirlpool that replaced it did have exposed insulation (and gobs of epoxy everywhere). It would've been worse than the LG, except it actually kept things cool.

[strawberryfie]

So it was unfixable, without disabling an essential feature?

[darreninthenet]

Probably a tiny handful of times? And would it have been useful? Yes of course it's useful to get a warning when you're not at home or upstairs in bed. I didn't say it was a life changing critical feature, I said "handy".

We had a freezer door pop open overnight once... it was because one of the drawers wasn't quite shut properly, all was good for hours after closing it and then suddenly it popped open when we were in bed and we came down to the food at the front of the drawers defrosted.

When you use something day in day out for 40+ years you occasionally have an accidental bad interaction. Sometimes you press the wrong button on the TV remote, sometimes one of the drawers in the freezer is further forward by half an inch on one side and you didn't notice, it happens.

Most people, especially on HN, don't need to be reminded to think critically about how real world interactions actually might occur before posting poorly thought out responses for the sake of evangelically pushing a point, but here we are

[arter4]

I'm not saying it is not useful, nor am I making a point about "survival" (also because people have survived long before fridges were even a thing).

I'm saying it can be useful, but only very rarely.

[thfuran]

Features that are useful but only rarely are great. Designing only for the happy path is terrible.

[q1w2]

> how often does a fridge door open on its own?

No, it's for when the kids leave the door open or just don't close it properly - which is VERY frequent. The door alarm goes off once per week here, at least.

[arter4]

Yeah but kids can do all kinds of stuff. If your kids start drawing on the wall, do you have an alarm for that? Or for when they break a glass?

[jairuhme]

Kids can know to close the door, intend to close the door, but still fail to realize they didn't close the door. They're kids, it happens. And its a simple feature that can help realize the door is still open. It's not that deep..

[naravara]

My dog is my alarm for when the kid starts drawing on the walls or breaks something. He barks to let me know. It’s very convenient and I’m glad to have him. If it was practical to make a computer to do this I’m sure people would find it useful.

[bell-cot]

I'd say a temperature alarm - if I happen to feel I need one - should be a physically separate little thing. With it's own programmable temperature range. Usually it's in the fridge. But during a cold spell, I can adjust and move it to a spot where I'm worried the pipes might freeze. Or turn it into a "is the A/C working?" watchdog during a heat wave. Or, I can buy several to cover all those. But they're all one make & model, so I don't have to install/learn/use 5 different crappy apps for 'em.

And that way the the fridge can't die...and quietly take its built-in alarm with it.

[darreninthenet]

I said it was handy not something I would go out of my way to get... the fridge has it so it's useful. I don't understand why so many people on here are so offended by a useful feature that from most people's perspective is just a feature the fridge has rather than one they shopped for.

[arter4]

I personally am not offended by a feature. I wouldn't march on the streets to denounce this or anything like that.

What I am saying (though I cannot speak for anyone) is that I, on the contrary, would go out of my way to not get, not because I have thin foil hat or whatever, but because the reliability and privacy concerns this kind of thing carries far outweigh (in my scale) the benefit of having something that will come in useful once in a decade.

Note that things like that have already happened.

When an AWS region went down, things like doorbells and lights stopped working properly (https://financialpost.com/technology/personal-tech/pitfalls-...). Which, if you think about it, is ridiculous. I cannot turn my lights on because somewhere, potentially thousands of miles away, some datacenters failed, even if those datacenters could, ostensibly, only give me ads and "improvements" and not any core feature.

And when it comes to privacy, Roomba employees posted on Facebook picture of a woman on the toilet, a picture that was taken by the Roomba itself while cleaning (https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/12/19/1065306/roomba-i...). Now, you might say that the Roomba algorithm has to train a lot to be able to work properly, but why take pictures? And why upload them to the Internet?

Of course everyone makes their own judgement calls. I'm not offended if anyone gets smart fridges or voice activated lights.

[BoxFour]

> I cannot turn my lights on because somewhere, potentially thousands of miles away, some datacenters failed, even if those datacenters could, ostensibly, only give me ads and "improvements" and not any core feature.

It appears there's a misunderstanding here. When smart lightbulbs lose internet connection, they still function as regular lightbulbs.

In such cases, you simply revert to the traditional method of turning the light switch on and off manually, instead of using voice commands or an app.

[inferiorhuman]

I'm not offended by you enjoying a feature, but I see that feature as a net negative. An R&D budget is more or less a zero sum situation. Money spent developing temperature sensors is money not spent on something else.

Fridge quality today is lousy enough (and warranties + return policies have all but evaporated) that spending money elsewhere would've been a big win. Even if we're not talking reliability, I had to replace a 20 year old fridge with split shelves only to find that this feature is now only available on more expensive, less efficient, less reliable bottom freezer units. Another modern fridge I've dealt with recently (Whirlpool) was just breathtakingly poorly built. It worked, but imagine if Whirlopool had sunk money into QA instead of gizmos.

Presumably your built-in temp sensors are WiFi or bluetooth. What are the chances that's gonna get updated when the next WiFi standard starts to become more common? Will it support the next version of WPA? What happens when the power goes out?

When I had to diagnose a dying LG fridge, I got some cheapie ($20ish) RF temp probes. They're battery powered, the included receiver can set an alarm, and a cheapie software defined radio kit can decode the signals on Linux. I run rechargeable NiCad batteries in them and have moved them from the LG to a couple fridges since. Hands down a way better (and more robust) experience than anything a fridge manufacturer could dream up.

Door open alarms are comparatively much simpler and a good example of a feature with a much smaller inherent downside.

BTW, I'd also add that folks (not necessarily you) championing flashy features are forgetting just how dead nuts simple fridges used be. To the best of my knowledge my current fridge (Frigidaire / Electrolux) has a mechanical timer for the defrost cycle. The LG uses electronic controls to eek out a bit more efficiency. I know which one I'd rather replace.

[kevin_thibedeau]

It isn't zero sum. They could simply add the gizmos and keep the important bits the same as their refined, reliable 20 year old designs. What they're actually doing is actively spending engineering resources to enshittify what was already perfected to boost profit.

[bell-cot]

True, and if you're stuck with a fridge that's hooked to the internet regardless...

OTOH, this item's context is "KISS, because the complex products are hot & steamy piles of failure modes, all eager to show themselves off". From that PoV, the alarm features kinda sound like yet more things to break down.

[beAbU]

Why? Just close the door properly. Ajust the feet so the fridge stands on a slight angle, so the door swings shut on it's own.

What help is a temperature alarm if you are away. A fridge is used daily, surely you'll notice if the temperature is not what it's supposed to be.

[darreninthenet]

I really have no idea how to reply to this without sounding like an ass so apologies in advance.

Well yeah duh if the door was shut properly every time fridges wouldn't need door or temperature alarms at all (most have an audible one already). But it's called an alarm for a reason, sometimes shit goes wrong and it's handy to know before all the food has been at room temperature all day. We had a freezer door pop open overnight once, because one of the drawers wasn't quite shut properly... in 40+ years of interacting with a fridge/freezer, yes occasionally mistakes are made

I also have friends and family and at least one will be aware and be willing to go to the house if necessary when we are away (only happened once when our intruder alarm went off for no apparent reason) and my neighbours would also pop in if I was at work.

Seriously your response showed such a lack of thinking of real world situations and usage I can only assume you work for the Google UI team or something

[coldtea]

I too really have no idea how to reply to this without sounding like an ass so apologies in advance.

Well, our parents, and for the younger, our grandparents too, and us, have managed to do fine for like 60+ years of using fridges without an fridge door alarm.

Fun fact: for an alarm for when you are away for days, and you want to know if the fridge power went off and back on in between, you can freeze a jar of water in your freezer, put a coin on top, and leave it there.

If you find the coin in the bottom of the jar at some point, the fridge power/temperature has been off for a while.

[darreninthenet]

They did fine for many years without mobile phones, cars, aircraft and computers... your point is irrelevant. It's just a handy extra to have I really don't see why people find my phone pinging me if the door is left open so offensive :-D

[TeMPOraL]

Today, we call such tricks "life hacks". For when the defaults don't work well enough, even if they probably should. This is indeed a cool life hack. But it kind of feels like something that should've been built into the goddamn fridge.

[beAbU]

At least you apologised in advance <3

You make the perfect argument for a physical alarm. I agree, that makes perfect sense, and is a cheap addition that significantly improves quality of life.

Will you be woken up by a midnight phone notification that the fridge is open? I tend to sleep stuff like that.

Does a once in 40 years mistake justify carrying an app around that does god knows what else, and the extra expense and hassle of a fridge that might or might not spy on you?

Do we need to therefore instrument our stoves, ovens, baths and basins to insulate ourselves from the other common domestic nightmare scenarios?

Also, you talk about intruder alarms? I thought we were talking about "smart" wifi connected fridges? That's a completely different scenario, and I fully agree with you. I pay a security company to monitor my alarm, and they visit my house within 5 minutes of the alarm triggering. But my fridge can stay as dumb as it gets, thanks. Literally the only thing its allowed to do is go brrr.

[arter4]

>Does a once in 40 years mistake justify carrying an app around that does god knows what else, and the extra expense and hassle of a fridge that might or might not spy on you?

>Do we need to therefore instrument our stoves, ovens, baths and basins to insulate ourselves from the other common domestic nightmare scenarios?

Exactly. There are a lot of things that could go wrong in daily life.

Let's say you are sleeping and one of the bed slats bends or breaks (this has actually happened to me). It's messy, especially because you wake up and putting the bed slat back is not easy. So what do you do? You either ignore the fact it may happen, or you say "well if it does happen, I guess I'll sleep on the couch or something". No one that I know, even among the most "smart home" obsessed people, has a bed which automatically beeps or sends a push notification if the slats are about to break.

Ok, now you wake up and nothing bad happened so far. You have breakfast (maybe you have a smart fridge which ensures you're not running out of yogurt or whatever). Then you go dress yourself. But then you realize your favorite shirt has a stain you didn't notice. Do you have a drawer that automatically beeps if your clothes have stains? Probably not. You either remember to watch closely your clothes and wash them properly, or say "whatever, I'll go with something else and I'll wash that later".

And so on. Life is full of minor inconveniences. That doesn't mean you should necessarily fill your life with sensors and beepers for every possible scenario. I might be getting too philosophical, but part of life is also becoming aware that things happen and you can't always be 100% safe in any possible scenario.

[darreninthenet]

My point about the alarm is that I have neighbours or friends who are willing to pop around and sort shit out.

People are taking this waaaayyyy out of context. I said it was handy. I didn't say it was a must feature or even one that make me choose a particular model or pay more for. But the fact my current fridge/freezer does it is a nice handy extra... I already have a billion things that spy on me, gather data so no I'm not particularly worried about what my fridge knows about me, the cameras all over the country I cannot avoid know far more already.

[htshnr]

> Seriously your response showed such a lack of thinking of real world situations and usage I can only assume you work for the Google UI team or something

Laughed out loud. This is gold.

[peterleiser]

LOL'd as well, which caused my 1.5 year old to laugh; He gets it. Every time I use the Google Cloud Platform web UI I feel like someone is reaching through the monitor to slap me upside the head for not doing Infrastructure as Code.

[jventura]

My dumb LG freezer plays a “ping ping ping” tune whenever the door is not properly closed after a few seconds. No need to send a smartphone notification!

[darreninthenet]

If you're home or not upstairs asleep I guess it's sufficient

[SPBS]

The number of times my fridge door has popped open (yes it has happened to me as well) is not worth making it a smart appliance that talks to the internet. It plays a physical alarm. That's it.

It's not the end of the world if some stuff inside goes bad. Again, not worth making it talk to the internet.

[CogitoCogito]

Doesn’t a beep from the fridge suffice? That’s an old solution that’s existed for a very long time.

[darreninthenet]

If you're home or not upstairs asleep it's sufficient... it's not a feature that would make me choose the fridge but it's handy when it has it.

[navbaker]

Have you ever been around kids? They have a complete lack of situational awareness that leads to things like not noticing they’ve not pushed the fridge door shut and sealed all the way after grabbing cheese and running back to play. I can’t tell you how many times the chime on our LG has let us know to push the door closed.

[arter4]

I admit I don't have kids, but AFAIK kids can do all kind of stuff, like putting crayons in the dishwasher or accidentally breaking things. You usually don't have sensors for all kinds of scenario (what if my kid breaks a glass? what if she starts drawing on the wall?). You either don't care and fix the thing later on, or you try to prevent that from happening, or a combination of the two. Sensors and notifications are not a reasonable solution to everything.

[BoxFour]

If you made, say, a dishwasher that notified you when something meltable was put into it you would probably find quite a few buyers.

Your examples aren’t really great for that reason.

[sokoloff]

Are you sure you would notice if the fridge was 45°F instead of 37°F?

And sure that you’d notice before anyone consumed unsafe food?

[dandy23]

A simple switch and a buzzer is all there is to it. Has existed for several decades.

[freetanga]

My dumb freezer beeps like hell if left open. That is it’s only trick

[iamacyborg]

Probably easier and more efficient to just get a window/door sensor offered by all the home automation providers. It’ll integrate better into your home automation software of choice, be cheaper and much easier to replace.

[mewpmewp2]

If you have an image of the fridge you could have GPT vision interpret it and offer you recipes or what is missing.

I personally like the idea of smart home things and everything connected. It feels like it opens up so many possibilities or ideas.

Do I need it for survival? No. But I do like the idea and how it triggers my imagination.

[arter4]

>you could have GPT vision interpret it and offer you recipes or what is missing

What is missing and what I should buy are different things. If my fridge has yogurt, bacon and some hamburgers, you might say "well, you are missing eggs". Except maybe I don't want eggs. I may be even allergic. Or maybe I like eggs but I'm in some low-protein diet for whatever reason.

The goal of a fridge is not to have literally everything, is to store everything you think you need for some days.

As for recipes, yes, that's more creative, but I guess I would just actively Google that (or even use an old fashioned recipe book!) if I were looking for original recipes. Of course, you can also ChatGPT it, but the direct fridge -> ChatGPT interaction is a bit weird because maybe I don't want original recipes or maybe I'm going to eat out.

So a hypothetical (?) app that sends me notifications about what recipes ChatGPT suggests by looking at my fridge wouldn't be very appealing unless you're always looking for new recipes. If you're mostly cooking ordinary things, continuous "You could cook X" would count as spam, much like a lot of people skip (or try to skip) ads on Youtube and ignore random "buy this at 70% discount" emails. And if you're that passionate about new recipes I guess you're probably interested in cooking and don't need the fridge to tell you what's missing.

[midasuni]

“You are missing Evards brand milk, buy Evards for that fresh taste, I’ve added it to your list for you”

Any potential benefit from such a device would be destroyed by the cancerous advertising industry.

[arter4]

Exactly. This would turn a fridge into yet another thing serving ads. No thanks.

[Liftyee]

This is why we can't have nice things. Any new technology is instantly leveraged to shove ads down people's throats and get them to buy more things they don't need.

[mewpmewp2]

There would be alternative market for ads free for sure or open source alternatives where you could connect with your own selected LLMs.

[mewpmewp2]

I mean more interactive way, not notifications being sent.

E.g. you start interaction by asking the fridge - I am a bit tired, what is an easy thing to cook based on what I have in the fridge and I am stopping by the store, is there anything I should buy to have a few more options.

So GPT vision takes image of what is in the fridge and then tries to solve for that question. If user is allergic to something that would be in GPT's prompt.

[arter4]

Ok, but if it's interactive I can open a fridge, take a picture of it and upload it to ChatGPT. You wouldn't need a smart fridge for that.

You would need a smart fridge if you wanted to directly connect the fridge with ChatGPT. Which is what I assumed in the previous comment.

[mewpmewp2]

You may be at work, and store is on the way to work. Also what you described is quite many steps, and the images have to be taken at certain angles to capture everything.

It would be directly connected to GPT and you can either use it as mobile app or with other devices or fridge itself directly.

So for example you are at work, about to leave home, store is on the way and then you ask this question from the app. Fridge takes photo, forwards it with certain prompts to OpenAI APIs and then gives you the response.

[rglullis]

It also (literally) opens up your home for many ideas and possibilities for attackers. Not just for the "haxxor" types, but the far more sneaky, sweet-talking ones.

It should not trigger just your imagination, but your paranoia.

[mewpmewp2]

Yes of course, but for example you already have your phone, laptops and computers with many things built in them. If you are ok with those, then it should be possible to build those smart devices with similar security and potential for attack.

[rglullis]

> If you are ok with those

I'm not. My phone, laptop and computers all run software that I get to install down to the OS (Linux, /e/OS), and I would never install something like the ChatGPT app on my phone.

> it should be possible to build those smart devices with similar security

It should be possible, but they are not. Don't forget: the "S" in IoT stands for "Security".

In any case, this is not even what I am talking about. What I am talking about is the "attack" being done by corporations into your house. It pains me to hear that people are willing to give so much of their privacy in the name of "convenience" and don't even show any slight concern over the thought of having so much data going to Google, Amazon, Apple, Microsoft and (now) OpenAI.

If you went to someone's home and they told you "by the way, my home is full of microphones and video cameras which are always on and used to power my digital assistant", how would you feel?

[mewpmewp2]

> by the way, my home is full of microphones and video cameras which are always on and used to power my digital assistant

Everyone are already walking around with smart phones that are perfectly able to do all of that.

> I'm not. My phone, laptop and computers all run software that I get to install down to the OS (Linux, /e/OS), and I would never install something like the ChatGPT app on my phone.

Fine if you do that.

> What I am talking about is the "attack" being done by corporations into your house. It pains me to hear that people are willing to give so much of their privacy in the name of "convenience" and don't even show any slight concern over the thought of having so much data going to Google, Amazon, Apple, Microsoft and (now) OpenAI.

I personally am not concerned about this, although I understand how people can be. I don't want to go my whole life avoiding things, concerned about what is being done with my data, and then I die. I have long dated option calls really out of money in all those companies (except OpenAI of course), in case one of them gets a massive data advantage and happens to discover singularity from this, so I would benefit from it anyway. Before that happens, they just use it to optimise ads for you, and I prefer optimised ads over random ads. Otherwise I'll do my best to block them, but if they get through, I prefer something I might actually be interested in and that might help me.

I prefer to see inventions and technology. At certain point humans will be outlived by technology anyway, and that's bound to happen. New inventions and tech are what is exciting and why I like living, seeing those things coming together.

[arter4]

Yes but while you can install Linux on your own, or even build your own computer if you're interested, you don't get to build a fridge or its operating system, and you most likely don't even have a valid way to see how it's configured (you may be able to hack it somehow, but it would probably void any warranty).

So...

do you upgrade your fridge OS? Maybe, maybe not. What happens if you do and an upgrade fails?

does it talk to the Internet? If it has to (by design), then all bets are off. You could try to mirror traffic and take a packet capture, but a fridge OS could easily use HTTPS over a "smart.myfridge.com" domain and you wouldn't know what's going on.

How does it even authenticate to whatever remote server they have? If it uses tokens or client certificates, what happens when they expire?

I'm a sysadmin, I know things fail. Even laptops and phones. But, while I can see valid use cases for laptops and phones, I still fail to see the actual appeal of most "smart home" appliances, outside of security systems. And I don't want to have nightmares about my fridge certificate expiration or not being able to turn your light on because my fiber connection went down.

[mewpmewp2]

> Yes but while you can install Linux on your own, or even build your own computer if you're interested, you don't get to build a fridge or its operating system, and you most likely don't even have a valid way to see how it's configured (you may be able to hack it somehow, but it would probably void any warranty).

You could install open sourced things to that fridge. E.g. the fridge could either come with sensors immediately available or just have convenient mounts to place your own cameras.

Maybe the fridge could have a simple linux box, raspberry PI or whatever set up. There could be a market where you can flexibly pick how immediately available solution you want or if you want to put in everything yourself and control, depending on how concerned you are about privacy and how technical you are.

If you want to have full control, you can just do that.

> do you upgrade your fridge OS? Maybe, maybe not. What happens if you do and an upgrade fails?

Most smart home devices in my experience update through a mobile app connected to your WiFi.

> What happens if you do and an upgrade fails

Fridge itself would still work, just the picture taking and ai guidance wouldn't.

> How does it even authenticate to whatever remote server they have? If it uses tokens or client certificates, what happens when they expire?

Through mobile app can update, reset everything.

> And I don't want to have nightmares about my fridge certificate expiration or not being able to turn your light on because my fiber connection went down.

These basic things like light and other base features you make sure can work even if smart software fails.

[thfuran]

It is possible, but it mostly doesn't happen. And even when it does, "similar security and potential for attack" means needing regular security updates, which they tend not to receive.

[EasyMark]

the only thing I see worth using "smart" appliances on are lighting, thermostat, and security system. Everything else in my experience is extraneous and useless.

[TeMPOraL]

I hacked a few IKEA air quality sensors so, beyond their traffic-light color LEDs, they also log actual numeric measurements to Home Assistant. It's proving to be one of the more useful "ensmartiffication" for several reasons - including being able to check all the meters from one place on the go, and being able to position the device so its LED indicator isn't annoying my wife at night. But honestly, I wouldn't actually buy a smart device for this - soldering a NodeMCU into a cheap IKEA device is the sweet spot of relatively low skill required, and zero bullshit included.

I can't stand vendor apps. They're always garbage. In fact, the main reason I set up Home Assistant, and the main reason my wife embraced it and uses it daily, is because hooking up our A/C to it made it infinitely more useful than having it operated over the vendor shit app. With HA, either of us can reconfigure all A/Cs and then go and make tea or whatever, in time it took the official vendor app to fully open.

IoT is a disaster, Home Assistant and some tinkering is the only thing that makes it reasonable to have a smart device.

[tlonny]

I bought the wife a "thermomix" because she was ranting/raving about how great it is. Its a glorified blender with a heating element that cost (at the time) well over a grand.

Its only after I bought it (and the free trial expired) that I discovered that an additional subscription is required to use the integrated "cooking recipe" service that guides you through cooking various dishes - insanely cheeky given how much it cost!

To top it off, I'm constantly nagged to connect the thing to WiFi so it can update god-knows-what. Never. Again.

[eutropia]

Vitamix blenders blend hard enough that the friction of the blades in the liquid can bring your soup to a simmer, fwiw.

[qwertox]

I've "smartified" my washing machine by using as smart plug with included power meter. This gives me all the info I want to know about the washing machine and there are no vendors spying on my washing habits.

When the replacement thermostat of my fridge broke I replaced it with an ESP32 with a DS18B20 and a relay, now it posts temperature data to a logging server and the temperature range can be adjusted over WiFi when needed. Here again, I guess if it were really smart, that this would mean that the vendor would place the requirement of me sharing all the data with them so that they then give me a subset of data.

[madaxe_again]

I’ve done the same with my washing machine, and a tiny bit of automation has homeassistant tell me when the laundry is done.

[Semaphor]

Is that hyperbole regarding fridges, or is it really that bad in the USA? Here in Germany, the vast majority of fridges are still just fridges.

[willbush]

A person over here https://slrpnk.net/comment/4749319 said

>The EU just made it so that any new major appliance must be repaired by the maker for 10 years

I'm not sure how true that is, but I set by VPN Dublin, Ireland and did some shopping to see what brands are avaliable.

Lot of interesting brands I ran across:

    BEKO
    BOSCH
    CANDY
    HOOVER
    HOTPOINT
    INDESIT
    LIEBHERR
    MIELE
    NORDMENDE
    NORKO
    POWERPOINT
    SIEMENS
    TCL
    WHIRLPOOL

Really surprising to my that a Bosch / Miele can be had for less than $1000. In the US, it’s hard to find anything less than $3k in those brands. I have seen some places around here sell Beko, but only in white.

[Semaphor]

There’s more of a difference than just smart/not-smart, though. US tends to have those giant two-door fridges, we usually have single-door, stacked, fridge-freezer combinations.

[madaxe_again]

And they just work. I’ve fridges going back 30 years which have never had so much as a compressor pump fail. Boring under-counter units, fridge/freezer stacked units, etc.

I think the European market is different, in general.

[Brian_K_White]

Watch out for the LG "linear compressor", and it's in other brands too like Kenmore I think it was.

Even without brains, new appliances are shit.

[krasin]

Related: LG Settles Class-Action Lawsuit Over Refrigerator Compressors, https://www.consumerreports.org/lawsuits-settlements/lg-sett...

[MilaM]

I also avoided smart appliances when replacing an oven and a washing machine recently. I would have considered them, though, if the "smart" part was based on the matter/thread standard. What I don't want, for sure, are appliances that need an internet connection using my Wi-Fi and only work with the manufacturer's app.

[mlrtime]

I'm a little confused about these fridge posts. There are refrigerators that do not have any tech that will last [most likely] longer than you stay in your home.

I've had multiple Subzero basic commodity or commercial refrigerators last 15-20 years with only minor parts replacements which are easily found. Of course these are not cheap, but isn't that what everyone here is asking for? Something made well that lasts a long time?

They don't look fancy at all and nobody even knows it's a Subzero because there are no labels on it and no stainless steel front.

[jader201]

I had never heard of Subzero before this post, and just looked them up.

$10k-$15k for a refrigerator?

I’ve only ever owned fairly “basic” refrigerators (e.g. LG or GE), that are about 1/10 of that cost, and have never had any problems with them going out or even degrading in quality (e.g. 10+ years). Maybe needed an ice maker repair, but that’s about it.

Do people need to spend that kind of money for a refrigerator that lasts?

Maybe if you’re going to be in your home for 30-40 years, but not many people stay in one place long enough to outlive these “basic” refrigerators. And even then, I’d argue that a $1k-$2k refrigerator can still last that long.

(I’m using “basic” in quotes here because I feel like our refrigerators weren’t even the bottom tier — they’re quite large, and have the features we need. But now seeing other brands that cost as much as some vehicles, to some they may seem basic.)

[m463]

There was a fancy kitchen design store I wandered into a few months ago, and they had a few really interesting refrigerators.

You opened the door, and there was SPACE. The refrigerator was taller than I was, and very wide. I think it was subzero, but I could be wrong.

It seemed like you could take the 30 lb turkey from thanksgiving and just set it on a shelf, without giving up much space.

Afterwards looking at other refrigerators, even the ingenious ones, I was struck by how complicated they were. You would still be fighting to find a place for something in the refrigerator, or looking for something you lost.

For computer folks, it was the refrigerator equivalent of an organized rack of servers, instead of a bunch of systems crammed under your desk with wires going whereever.

[dreamcompiler]

Subzero became a "status" brand in the US 25 years ago. It's common to find them in US kitchens that are designed to impress rather than to cook in. (Just like Viking ranges.)

Subzero might in fact be a decent-quality fridge--I have no idea because I refuse to pay a status tax on appliances.

[mlrtime]

"I have no idea" but I have strong negative opinions.

Designed to impress who? You can't tell a SZ fridge by looking at it, there are usually no labels. I know of a few professional chefs who buy these fridges, does that mean they are just buying them to impress?

[jader201]

I’d say if you’re a professional chef, that’s a little more understandable — it’s your livelihood.

But this discussion is more around what average people are looking for (e.g. smart vs. dumb appliances), and not so much about commercial appliances that most people aren’t the target consumer for.

Re: impressing people and the lack of labels, just looking at images of SZ refrigerators, these are clearly distinguishable from consumer grade refrigerators. They clearly have the appearance of belonging in a commercial chef’s kitchen.

Out of curiosity, though, you said you’ve had multiple SZ refrigerators — why did you choose those over, e.g. a $1k-$2 LG/GE/Samsung refrigerator? Did you not think it would last more than a few years?

You said:

> I've had multiple Subzero basic commodity or commercial refrigerators last 15-20 years with only minor parts replacements which are easily found.

I could replace “Subzero” with any of the above brands, and say the same thing. So just trying to figure out what you’re willing to pay 10x for.

Genuinely curious, as I feel I may be missing something.

[mlrtime]

Multiple from two different homes, the sub zeros were the age of the house and still going strong.

I avoid LG/Samsung because of the countless articles here an other places were people complain about the quality of appliances, but yet the mass majority of [different] people still buy these crappy appliances with touch screens and glossy finishes.

My point is that these appliances do exist, no feature, long lasting, easily reparable, expensive. People do not want to pay for them as much as HN says they do. For a bunch of smart Engineers I don't understand why this is difficult to grasp. If you want quality, you have to pay for it.

[Nifty3929]

People SAY that want well made, simple things. But people will generally not PAY FOR simple, well made things when much cheaper options are available. You and I might, and many others as well. But the vast majority of folks will not pay more for a higher quality, longer lasting item.

Another example is Speed Queen for washers and dryers. They are substantially more expensive and look very plain and even old fashioned. But they are built to last a long time and be repairable. They have a large part of the laundromat market because the laundromat owners do value these qualities. But they have very little of the consumer market, because consumers don't.

Consumers also tend to favor nice-sounding features that are in fact unreliable and frustrating, such as ice makers in the refrigerator compartment.

[rqtwteye]

"People SAY that want well made, simple things. But people will generally not PAY FOR simple, well made things when much cheaper options are available. You and I might, and many others as well. But the vast majority of folks will not pay more for a higher quality, longer lasting item."

One problem I see is that the higher priced items are not necessarily higher quality these days. A lot of brands are coasting on their reputation while selling cheaply made items at premium price.

[jader201]

Most consumers don’t need commercial-level quality for appliances.

Those appliances are built to handle much more usage, and for a much longer time. E.g. a washer in a laundromat will be used probably 10x compared to a consumer washer over the same amount of time.

Also, a laundromat wants the washer to last as long as possible, probably 20-30 years, but at least 10-15.

There’s no reason for consumers to spend 10x on commercial appliances, when they’re not used as often, and won’t need to endure the misuse/abuse that commercial appliances take.

Also, few residents stay in one place long enough to need an appliance to last more than 15 or so years, and most consumer appliances last that long.

[Nifty3929]

I totally agree! In a way, this is my point. For the most part, people are rationally choosing to pay less money for lower-quality, shorter-lived appliances. Because they don't need them to last a long time. There are basically two markets for these things: commercial and consumer. Similar with printers as well, or even power tools. The cheaply made junk that most people (rationally!) buy, and the expensive, well made stuff that only those who care and can afford buy.

[TeMPOraL]

Except when people are made aware of the commercial market and able to score something off it, suddenly it turns out they like the reliability, the ergonomics, the lack of bullshit.

Consumers ain't choosing shit. People are talking here as if most people were drowning in money, and shopping around for low price as a pastime. On the contrary, people are starved for funds, they buy cheap out of necessity, enduring whatever abusive or lazy bullshit the manufaturer pulled off to offer their wares slightly cheaper.

[inferiorhuman]

20 years ago you could buy a simple, reliable, mid-low priced fridge and expect it to last 20 years. The only reason I replaced mine (a Sears branded Whirlpool) is that some idiot contractors destroyed it. It lasted 20 years without a single repair.

I had a similar era whatever of Whirlpool's bargain basement brand was in my apartment in the city. That one did stop cooling reliably, but a $20 relay and 10 minutes fixed that right up. I didn't even bother to call the landlord.

With few exceptions you'll find similar stories from most well known brands up through the mid 00s.

[account42]

People are used to being sold overcomplicated cheaply made things priced the same as well made things. Paying more is hardly ever a guarantee of getting better quality so without any ability to tell if something is actually good it does make more sense to go with the cheaper option.

[ensignavenger]

I've never seen these anywhere- where do you get them from?

[vladvasiliu]

> all make some no-frills models that can save both money and frustration

Actually, those features seem to have become so common that they don't seem to command a price premium anymore. My washing machine was the cheapest that ticked all the boxes I wanted (most importantly size), and it still has some kind of wifi thingy. Ditto for my dishwasher.

They both work perfectly well without any connection to anything, and not once have they even tried to get me to connect them.

For the washing machine, a notification that it's done can be useful. I usually do laundry while I'm either working or playing some game, so 9 out of 10 times I won't hear that it's done and forget to take the clothes out. Now I've taken the habit of setting an alarm to check on it after the estimated time is up.

For the dishwasher, I really don't care. The dishes can stay there until I need them.

[ThePowerOfFuet]

> They both work perfectly well without any connection to anything, and not once have they even tried to get me to connect them.

Is there an open Wi-Fi network nearby?

[vladvasiliu]

Not that I know of, and you actually have to go out of your way to turn the Wifi on and connect. They have indicator lights that are off.

And it's not like they're TVs, I doubt they'd be able to show me any add on their 7-segment displays. So I'm not sure what would be the benefit of trying to connect to a network and let LG know that I've washed some clothes.

[al_borland]

We should also hope they remain cheaper, and companies don’t start selling the “smart” appliances for less with the idea that they can somehow makeup for it on data collection or ongoing upsells and subscriptions.

[comboy]

I wouldn't. Cost to make a device "smart" is much less than $1 in parts, app and infrastructure are not rocket science and even with no evil intentions you get very valuable data on usage, what breaks first, environment, location etc. Seems like a no-brainer.

Those will soon also not require you to connect them to your wifi, NB-IoT both chips and plans cost for businesses are already very good.

[TeMPOraL]

> app and infrastructure are not rocket science

Thanks to Tuya, the software and infra side for making a garbage-quality IoT device is effectively free now. You may be surprised just how much of those you have around you. Any random device class that suddenly gained optional "control through app/voice assistants" feature is likely Tuya in disguise - magic of white-label IoT.

[thfuran]

Where are you shopping that you can find a 20" touch screen for under a dollar?

[comboy]

Sure, touchscreen is expensive, but if you just have notification on your phone that the door is not closed properly that's already considered "smart". Basically anything connecting to your home network is advertised as such.

[paganel]

> luddite techie" market.

I honestly wonder how big that market has gotten in the last few years, and I’m including software/services in it.

I know I’m definitely part of that market and also that the most technophile people from my list of friends and acquaintances are mostly working in non-tech industries. For example I was very surprised when visiting an acquaintance that works in the media and the first thing he did when he entered the house was to “talk” with Alexa, we have such a device at home but to this day it still is unboxed, hence uninstalled (received it at an IT event).