[vages]

Norwegian written and pronounced language was actually changed because one digit was added to phone numbers. Here is the long story:

Starting after World War Two, the government made an attempt at _merging_ the two written languages. The imagined outcome was named “Samnorsk” (unified Norwegian), led by Språknemnda (The Language committee).

The work mainly consisted of changing the grammar of certain words in the bokmål. School textbooks would be rewritten with only the new grammar. Sometimes with comical results, as rhyming words in children’s would no lenger rhyme («Mons er pen./ Han er ren -> rein.»)

The attempt ultimately failed, and in 1972 Språknemda became Språkrådet (The language council), who maintain the official rules for written Norwegian and who published this article. Merging the two written languages was part of the council’s long term goals until 2002, when it was removed from its mandate.

What the government did succeed at was changing the pronunciation of numbers from 20 to 99. It was changed from how the Germans do it (“two and forty”) to how the English do (“forty two”). This was architected by the head of the telephone bureau in 1949, as an error reduction mechanism: When the phone number length increased from 5 to 6 digits, the number of wrongly dialed numbers increased along with it. Internal research at the bureau showed that people would make fewer errors when digits were consistently read from right to left.

Further reading (in Norwegian): - https://snl.no/samnorsk - https://snl.no/den_nye_tellemåten

[The_Colonel]

> This was architected by the head of the telephone bureau in 1949, as an error reduction mechanism

I find it fascinating that the telephone bureau was powerful enough to initiate such language change. Imagine happening this today.

But this reminds me of the fact that in Czech we have both counting systems as well. The forward (english) counting is the standard, but the backward (german) is quite commonly used informally as well (it also has a certain poetic quality).

Learning German was for me a revelation of how much influence German had on the Czech language. There are of course loanwords (mostly in the dying dialects), but there's also a less obvious structural influence.

My favorite demonstration of this is the verb "vorstellen" - it has several meanings (physically put sth. forward, introduce, present, imagine). It turns out Czech has a fully native word (not a loanword) "představit" with an identical set of meanings and identical structure - "vor" is "před", "stellen" is "stavit". There are many words like that, and the counting system is likely another such "structural" influence.

I'm fully convinced that German is easier to learn for Czech speakers as opposed to English speakers, even though it's across language families. It's a language continuum after all ...

[bjoli]

It was a different time as well. There was one central resource for phone-related things and the spirit of the time was very much a bureaucratic efficient one. The idea was that you could make the society better and more efficient, often top down. In Sweden there was even a standardisation of kitchens made by a government agency. Everything from height of the counters to placement. It wasn't always followed, but it did shape things. This was done at a time when the Swedish population hade a staggering increase in housing standards due mostly to government policy. The houses might not be very highly regarded today (mostly because the areas are considered bad) but they are solidly built and are usually very practical with lots of storage in the right places.

In Sweden we had the "du"-reform where we stopped referring to people either by their title or surname and the plural-you ("ni"). Instead we started using singular you ("du") and first name. This was started at a government agency and spread quickly through society.

There was actually a gender neutral pronoun introduced recently that is getting used more often. In addition to "han" and "hon" (he and she) we now have "hen". Depending on language situation it is actually very handy, and you can actually see it used in large newspapers or semi-official documents.

[Sesse__]

The standardization of kitchens (to optimize the housewife's day, based on observations) also lead to the hilarious black comedy “Psalmer från köket” (English title “Kitchen stories”) where the premise is that the government tries to repeat the success for single males. Who are considerably less amenable to having a researcher sit high up on a perch to write down their every move :-)

[actionfromafar]

What people don't remember about the plural-you reform, is that neither "du" nor "ni" were used very much. Instead, "Han" (he) and "Hon" (she) were used to address people of similar standing.

[Symbiote]

> The forward (english) counting is the standard, but the backward (german) is quite commonly used informally as well (it also has a certain poetic quality).

English also had the backward numbers, but they are only used poetically nowadays. [1] is a nursery rhyme. [2] says English switched in the 16th century. (Except 13-19, which are still backwards.)

English also used to count in twenties ("three score and five" = 65), like modern Danish ("femogtres") which is clearer if written in slightly old Danish "femogtresindstyve", "fem og tre-sinds-tyve" → "five and three-times-twenty".

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sing_a_Song_of_Sixpence

[2] https://german.stackexchange.com/questions/5009/what-is-the-...

[worklaptopacct]

I've had the exact same reasoning about Polish, and after I've moved to Germany I've noticed that quite often I'm able to just translate a phrase directly from Polish and it would be correct. I suppose that the verbs originate in the convoluted language of German bureaucracy in the parts of Poland under German rule.

[shakow]

> My favorite demonstration of this is the verb "vorstellen"

What makes you think this is an example of an infuence of German over Czech, rather than a common verb construction mechanism across indo-european languages?

Russian (and probably other slavic languages) has представить, which is virtually the same but in cyrillic, French/English has introduire/introduce (from latin intro [into] and ducere [drive, lead]), etc.

[inglor_cz]

In general, modern Czech owes a significant fraction of its vocabulary to a certain Josef Jungmann, who published a big thesaurus about 180 years ago and "borrowed" new words into the up-to-that-time somewhat archaic language. Sometimes directly so, especially from other Slavic languages, sometimes via a calque from German/Latin/French etc.

Thus, sloka (stanza) is from Sanskrit, vzduch (air) from Russian, okres (county/region) from Polish, zeměpis (geography) a calque from Ancient Greek, and duchapřítomný (quick-witted) a calque from German geistesgegenwärtig.

I am not sure if vorstellen / představit is his calque as well.

[ithkuil]

Some structural similarities can be explained by contact but other similarities are indications of common origin. Indeed both Germanic languages and Slavic languages share a common ancestor: proto-indo-european.

"Present" also shares a similar etymology; from latin: prae (before) + esse (be), with a similar palette of meanings as the Germanic and Slavic forms

[The_Colonel]

The similarities I have in mind are specific to German - Czech/Slavic. Like I don't know the English equivalent to "vorstellen" which would encompass all its meanings the same way as the Czech equivalent does. (though it is possible there is some archaic form which fell out of use)

[shakow]

Представить has the same meaning & construction in Russian, and I don't see why it would have been introduced through German.

[ithkuil]

the problem with the english equivalent is that while "present" does originate ultimately from latin, it came there through a very tortuous path so it lost a lot of meanings along the way.

[dotancohen]

  > I find it fascinating that the telephone bureau was powerful enough to initiate such language change. Imagine happening this today.

A modern analogue might be to straighten out all the dual meanings and complicated grammar of modern English, in order for machine learning systems to more reliably parse spoken or written language.

The thought is terrifying.

[euroderf]

> I find it fascinating that the telephone bureau was powerful enough to initiate such language change. Imagine happening this today.

You will get a chuckle out of the film The President's Analyst.

[vidarh]

The numbers switch was slow, though. My parents started school after the change was officially made in the 50's and would have learned the new forms in school, but still used the old form enough in the late 70's and 80's that I picked up a preference for it from them, and you still find people of my generation (I'm born in '75) using the old forms pretty often, if less now than when I was younger.

(If anyone here wonders if this is the same "Samnorsk" as in Vernor Vinge's "A Fire Upon the Deep": It is. For people who know Norwegian, Vinge's books have several Norwegian-inspired terms. E.g. "Nyjora" is "new earth".)

[berkes]

> The numbers switch was slow, though.

50 years is hardly "slow" on a scale of language reform.

The number-systems stem from at least proto-germanic languages, millenia of small changes.

[semi-extrinsic]

I think the old style of pronouncing numbers still lives on, especially for two-digit numbers and in certain dialects/sociolects. I certainly use it without making conscious effort, and I'm a 90s kid. My children again understand the system, but they rarely use it.

[vidarh]

I mean, there are many other vestigial pieces that will hang in there for a very long time, but see elsewhere - I searched the National Library, and you're absolutely right that it's still around to a limited extent, but the decline in written use at least has been fairly steep.

[mtlmtlmtlmtl]

The failed samnorsk reform did have a silver lining.

Around high school I figured out that because of it, a shocking amount of Nynorsk grammar was secretly optional and the Bokmål version was very often valid Nynorsk.

So I started just writing my essays in Bokmål and then fixing the errors in post, so to speak. Initially my teacher tried to fail me for this, but she lost that battle.

I vehemently hate Nynorsk, or at least the fact that it's supposed to be "equal" to bokmål. It was a neat idea and all, but I honestly think it should only be seen as an archaic language used for poetry and literature. And only taught to students who want to delve deeper into that, not forced onto you starting in 8th grade.

[mailund]

I used the same approach! I essentially had a list of everything I should search and replace in the document (e.g. search for singular nouns ending in -en and see if they should be replaced by -a), and all the weird quirks that I needed to pay special attention to. As soon I was finished writing in bokmål, I followed the steps to "transpile" the text into nynorsk! I was able to go from almost failing to getting a decent grade back in the days using this approach.

[hhjinks]

That's small time. Back in my day, like 15 years ago, there was an on-machine bokmål to nynorsk translation program, named Nyno31, if I remember correctly. It wasn't great, but it would secure you a C with zero effort. Teachers weren't in the know, so there was almost no risk of getting caught.

[mtlmtlmtlmtl]

Wow, I had no idea about that.

[unixhero]

Nynorsk kept me away from becoming a fighter pilot

[mtlmtlmtlmtl]

That makes me so angry. The Norwegian school system is so, so inflexible and it ruins many lives each year.

For me, the reason I was never allowed to set foot in a university was German, PE, and Norwegian literature. I was suffering from severe health issues and I didn't have the energy to do all the subjects I had no interest in. So I poured my focus into the subjects I enjoyed and/or were relevant to my future plans(biology, calc, English, physics, history). I generally nailed those subjects. But because I failed German, and almost never showed up for PE, I was denied the opportunity to follow my dream and study biology.

Part of the problem is also the very inflexible admission requirements for Norwegian universities.

[unixhero]

You could always apply for a programme Bsc and or Msc in Biology at a university in Australia. There are even agents throughout Europe who set you up with a proper application and assist in this. They get a kickback when you are admitted.

Hard sciences degrees were really hard to get into in Norway too. Some times the best way to win is by not playing their game.

[mtlmtlmtlmtl]

That's probably the way to go, yeah. But that was never an option for me economically. But absolutely, if anyone reading this is a Norwegian teenager in a similar situation to mine, the above is excellent advice if you have the means.

I am however lucky in that I taught myself programming since I was 14, so by the time they kicked me out of HS, I was capable of doing it professionally. But it took me years of networking to get to the point of even getting interviews for such jobs without having a HS degree. I did eventually get to where I can find somewhat intellectually rewarding work for a few months a year, when I'm healthy enough to do so. Whenever I try to do more I always crash and burn, so now I just try to work little as possible to stay sane.

[emj]

Education seems a bit more flexible in Sweden, i.e. I failed my third modern language but still managed to get in to uni by taking other courses. Over all I think you describe the tribulations of us all even if we manage to do all the hoops through uni. I worked during high school and military service, but looking back I was not really ready for it.

[sakjur]

I think the right to left should be left to right in that last sentence? I was briefly confused by that and ended up reading your links (takk!)

Danish still use a somewhat complex infix system for reading numbers (five and half fours is 75), and I find that very confusing as a Swede who didn’t grow up with it.

[kombookcha]

Confusingly, Danish counting is also a mix of old norse counting systems (based on tens) and medieval ones (based on twenty) for maximum chaos. For instance the word for 40, fyrretyve (sounds like four-twenty), is derived from old norse fyritiughu, "four tens". It sounds like it SHOULD mean 80! But 80 is firs, or firsindstyve - four twenties.

[Symbiote]

Danish people no longer say the "times twenty" parts of their numbers, which makes it more confusing to foreigners.

75 femoghalvfjerds used to be spoken as femoghalffjerdsindstyve, fem og half-fjerd-sinds-tyve¹, five and half-fourth-times-twenty.

The longer form is still used for ordinal numbers. 75th is femoghalffjerdsindstyvende.

French speakers will also recognise this system for numbers 80-99. 85 is quatre-vingt-cinq, four-twenties-five.

¹ People not used to compound words, like English speakers, will appreciate me writing it like this.

[zilti]

I don't get the 75. How does it work? What is a half fourth time?

[Symbiote]

Sorry, I should have explained that better.

It's half of the fourth twenty — meaning all of the first, second and third twenties, but only half of the fourth one. 20 + 20 + 20 + ½×20 = 70.

And for the 75, it's just "five and" before all that.

Many native Danish speakers learn the abbreviated words as young children, and don't generally think about their numbers this way, if they're even aware of it. (Much as a native English speaker might not think of 'thirteen' as 'three-ten'.)

For 60 and 80, the normal, abbreviated form is very short: "tres" and "firs" (full form: "tresindstyve", "firsindstyve"). For foreigners, these sound rather like something to do with three and four — as they are! — which causes much more difficulty than expected when learning basic numbers.

("Much more difficulty than expected" is the general experience when learning Danish as a second language: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI5DPt3Ge_s)

[Tistron]

I think of it slightly differently, but it's basically the same:

In many germanic languages we say half-four when the time is half past three, where brits these days sometimes say half-three, to make it maximally confusing. I.e. we have an implied "half [to]" and they "half [past]". This way of counting is what the Danes do. "Half-four times twenty" is "a half before four, times twenty" is "3.5 x 20" is 70 is "halvfjerdsindtyve" is "halvfjerds".

But it is only confusing to think of it that way, to speak Danish you have to just learn it as an opaque pointer to 70, or you'll get stuck doing mental arithmetic every time they say a number.

[acje]

https://www.nrk.no/video/humor/danskene-forstaar-hverandre-i...

[emj]

"The danish lanuage has collapsed" i.e. Kameloso is a foux shibboleth among my friends. I envy the danes they have a great shibboleth since no one can understand nor pronounce it anything of it.

[vages]

My mistake. Can’t correct it now, because the edit period is over.

[boxed]

I wish for a bigger revolution in Swedish. It has been rather painful to experience how hard it is for my children to learn to do simple addition in their heads because the language is broken.

It's easier to add 30 and 40 in your head for children, than it is to add 13 and 2! Because it's "3 ten and 4 ten" vs "<special word> and 2". The special word being "thirteen". The language is irregular for numbers up to 29 as 20 has a special word.

We should change 10, 20, 30, 40 to "etti, tvåti, treti, fyrti". It would be so much better!

[Tor3]

For some reason many languages use an irregular system for numbers. Well, reasons are historical.. things may have made more sense in (e.g.) Old Norse than modern Danish, for example. Japanese though.. now that's regular. One, two, three, .. nine, ten, ten-one, ten-two,.. ten-eight, ten-nine, two-ten, two-ten-one.. and so on. And then 'hundred', and continue the same way. to-hundred-to-ten-five (225). The only stumble is when you pass 10000, as from then on the grouping is in tens of thousands, not in thousands. But with that the only issue there's only one struggle to master (for learners coming from a culture which groups in thousands).

Anecdotally, Japanese children learn to do arithmetic quicker than children from (e.g.) Sweden. But I've been unable to find real scientific confirmation of this.

[Ingaz]

I think every natural language is irregular when it comes to numbers.

And about Japanese: you forgot about counters for men, animals, flat things and so on.

You have ichi-ippiku-ippon-hitory - issai And absolutely fascinating "system" for "years old" - everything starts with -sai but 20 years is "hatachi"!

[Tor3]

Counters are a different story than numbers. The numbers are highly regular, with the tiny exception that numbers 4 and 7 technically have two variants, where in certain areas one is preferred more than the other, and the pronunciation of 9 when talking about time. But that's really minor.

As soon as you're starting to count it's different.

[boxed]

> I think every natural language is irregular when it comes to numbers.

But.. it's not. Japanese is not. Just because it's not metric with grouping doesn't mean it's irregular.

[samus]

Not being decimal is not the issue. The irregularity are special rules for certain numbers or ranges of numbers for which another pattern has to be used.

[boxed]

But... there is no such extra rules in Japanese. The grouping does NOT count as it is absolutely vital to make it possible to say numbers at all.

[ChainOfFools]

Japanese does have two different words for seven though. なな for everything that is not related to telling time, and しち when you're referring to units of time.

But this is a welcome trade for the regularity and simplicity of the rest of the number system. Although the flexibility available in European languages as described elsewhere in this thread does allow for texturizing things in a poetic or evocative way. being able to get two or three jobs done with one set of words is sometimes nice even if it does make things complicated when all you want is the most common usage of those words.

[matsemann]

My Danish grandpa used to mock our Norwegian numbers (who is he to speak, with the Danish number system being completely wack, heh), by saying toti-en, toti-to etc as 21, 22, because he found it funny that we had a different word for 20 than for the other tens.

[boxed]

Yea, with Danish they have special words for... let's see: 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90.

Ouch. Just absolutely horrible. Swedish is amazingly regular compared to that.

[downsplat]

That's more or less how it works in English too... is it really that bad? Spanish and French also have special words for the teens, it's quite common in Europe and I've never heard of it being that difficult to learn.

Some languages have it much worse... I think Hindi is pretty irregular up to 100 .

[samus]

English has special words until twelve. Until nineteen it follows a pattern. The few exceptions to that pattern also apply to the multiples of ten. twelve-twenty, thirteen-thirty, fifteen-fifty, and that's it. It could be much, much worse.

[boxed]

Twenty is special. That destroys the entire 20-29 series.

[anthk]

In Spanish, just 11 to 15.

[FeteCommuniste]

In Greek only 11 and 12 are different, with 12 (δώδεκα = dodeka) being obvious to anyone who learned geometry.

[karl-j]

English has the exact same problems as you’re mentioning, and an explanation using the English words would be much more relatable to readers of HN.

[boxed]

Maybe. But English isn't so cleanly fixable.

[Tor3]

The "official" way of pronouncing numbers was indeed changed for that reason (NB: That was back when there were still phone central operators and you were supposed to tell them the number) However - the "old" way ("two and forty") is alive and well, very much so by the oldest generation of course, but among much younger people too. Most people alive use both ways - for some stuff it's simply more natural or easier to say "fem-og-tredve" than "tretti-fem".

[vodkapump]

> What the government did succeed at was changing the pronunciation of numbers from 20 to 99. It was changed from how the Germans do it (“two and forty”) to how the English do (“forty two”).

Yet almost every single person I speak with every day here outside of people from the Oslo region say it the "two and forty" way.

Though, that probably still means most people say it the "forty two" way.