[The_Colonel]

> This was architected by the head of the telephone bureau in 1949, as an error reduction mechanism

I find it fascinating that the telephone bureau was powerful enough to initiate such language change. Imagine happening this today.

But this reminds me of the fact that in Czech we have both counting systems as well. The forward (english) counting is the standard, but the backward (german) is quite commonly used informally as well (it also has a certain poetic quality).

Learning German was for me a revelation of how much influence German had on the Czech language. There are of course loanwords (mostly in the dying dialects), but there's also a less obvious structural influence.

My favorite demonstration of this is the verb "vorstellen" - it has several meanings (physically put sth. forward, introduce, present, imagine). It turns out Czech has a fully native word (not a loanword) "představit" with an identical set of meanings and identical structure - "vor" is "před", "stellen" is "stavit". There are many words like that, and the counting system is likely another such "structural" influence.

I'm fully convinced that German is easier to learn for Czech speakers as opposed to English speakers, even though it's across language families. It's a language continuum after all ...

[bjoli]

It was a different time as well. There was one central resource for phone-related things and the spirit of the time was very much a bureaucratic efficient one. The idea was that you could make the society better and more efficient, often top down. In Sweden there was even a standardisation of kitchens made by a government agency. Everything from height of the counters to placement. It wasn't always followed, but it did shape things. This was done at a time when the Swedish population hade a staggering increase in housing standards due mostly to government policy. The houses might not be very highly regarded today (mostly because the areas are considered bad) but they are solidly built and are usually very practical with lots of storage in the right places.

In Sweden we had the "du"-reform where we stopped referring to people either by their title or surname and the plural-you ("ni"). Instead we started using singular you ("du") and first name. This was started at a government agency and spread quickly through society.

There was actually a gender neutral pronoun introduced recently that is getting used more often. In addition to "han" and "hon" (he and she) we now have "hen". Depending on language situation it is actually very handy, and you can actually see it used in large newspapers or semi-official documents.

[Sesse__]

The standardization of kitchens (to optimize the housewife's day, based on observations) also lead to the hilarious black comedy “Psalmer från köket” (English title “Kitchen stories”) where the premise is that the government tries to repeat the success for single males. Who are considerably less amenable to having a researcher sit high up on a perch to write down their every move :-)

[actionfromafar]

What people don't remember about the plural-you reform, is that neither "du" nor "ni" were used very much. Instead, "Han" (he) and "Hon" (she) were used to address people of similar standing.

[Symbiote]

> The forward (english) counting is the standard, but the backward (german) is quite commonly used informally as well (it also has a certain poetic quality).

English also had the backward numbers, but they are only used poetically nowadays. [1] is a nursery rhyme. [2] says English switched in the 16th century. (Except 13-19, which are still backwards.)

English also used to count in twenties ("three score and five" = 65), like modern Danish ("femogtres") which is clearer if written in slightly old Danish "femogtresindstyve", "fem og tre-sinds-tyve" → "five and three-times-twenty".

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sing_a_Song_of_Sixpence

[2] https://german.stackexchange.com/questions/5009/what-is-the-...

[worklaptopacct]

I've had the exact same reasoning about Polish, and after I've moved to Germany I've noticed that quite often I'm able to just translate a phrase directly from Polish and it would be correct. I suppose that the verbs originate in the convoluted language of German bureaucracy in the parts of Poland under German rule.

[shakow]

> My favorite demonstration of this is the verb "vorstellen"

What makes you think this is an example of an infuence of German over Czech, rather than a common verb construction mechanism across indo-european languages?

Russian (and probably other slavic languages) has представить, which is virtually the same but in cyrillic, French/English has introduire/introduce (from latin intro [into] and ducere [drive, lead]), etc.

[inglor_cz]

In general, modern Czech owes a significant fraction of its vocabulary to a certain Josef Jungmann, who published a big thesaurus about 180 years ago and "borrowed" new words into the up-to-that-time somewhat archaic language. Sometimes directly so, especially from other Slavic languages, sometimes via a calque from German/Latin/French etc.

Thus, sloka (stanza) is from Sanskrit, vzduch (air) from Russian, okres (county/region) from Polish, zeměpis (geography) a calque from Ancient Greek, and duchapřítomný (quick-witted) a calque from German geistesgegenwärtig.

I am not sure if vorstellen / představit is his calque as well.

[ithkuil]

Some structural similarities can be explained by contact but other similarities are indications of common origin. Indeed both Germanic languages and Slavic languages share a common ancestor: proto-indo-european.

"Present" also shares a similar etymology; from latin: prae (before) + esse (be), with a similar palette of meanings as the Germanic and Slavic forms

[The_Colonel]

The similarities I have in mind are specific to German - Czech/Slavic. Like I don't know the English equivalent to "vorstellen" which would encompass all its meanings the same way as the Czech equivalent does. (though it is possible there is some archaic form which fell out of use)

[shakow]

Представить has the same meaning & construction in Russian, and I don't see why it would have been introduced through German.

[ithkuil]

the problem with the english equivalent is that while "present" does originate ultimately from latin, it came there through a very tortuous path so it lost a lot of meanings along the way.

[dotancohen]

  > I find it fascinating that the telephone bureau was powerful enough to initiate such language change. Imagine happening this today.

A modern analogue might be to straighten out all the dual meanings and complicated grammar of modern English, in order for machine learning systems to more reliably parse spoken or written language.

The thought is terrifying.

[euroderf]

> I find it fascinating that the telephone bureau was powerful enough to initiate such language change. Imagine happening this today.

You will get a chuckle out of the film The President's Analyst.