[sho_hn]

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it.

I'm German, living in Berlin, and have wonderful friends who fit that description. They live full lives, and I couldn't care less about their German levels. They do enough good things with their time they put their energy into instead.

People should learn languages if they feel a reason to or if they enjoy it. Motivation probably makes it easier. Guilting people by default doesn't sit right with me.

[hogepiyo]

I've lived in Germany myself (NRW). Idk, from my experience it's cool if you're in the young professional tech bubble but when you step outside of that it didn't feel good to me personally. Going out into smaller towns / cities to me at least it rapidly became evident that you're missing something.

Maybe I'm old fashioned or something. I still think there's something to be said for learning the local language (and c'mon if you've been there for 10 years, I'm sure you can pick it up).

This even goes without saying it's Japan where the level of english is far worse than that in Germany (where honestly the standard of English isn't anything like that you find in Sweden / Norway)

[sho_hn]

> I still think there's something to be said for learning the local language

Absolutely! I worked in South Korea myself for four years and did a year of Korean school in Berlin first to prepare, and then more tutoring and self-study in country. I wasn't particularly great at learning overall, but did get to survival levels of conversational and it definitely enhanced the experience and gave me a connection to last a lifetime.

It's still a lot of fun to watch a Korean show now and be able to pick up on it when the subtitles are bad and miss all the cultural nuances of word and grammar choices, etc.

I just think it's great when people discover that for themselves.

[paganel]

Especially as the guy was a journalist, he was supposed to go into "smaller towns / cities" and write about the people in there.

Surprised though that the BBC hasn't put that as a requirement before sending him to Japan for a 10-year stint. Afaik The Economist requires of their potential correspondents that they know Chinese before posting them to China, and this is why many of their Chaguan China-focused editorials are really interesting (for example in the latest one [1] the Economist journalist takes a train ride before the Chinese New Year and talks with Chinese people with whom he shares the ride)

[1] https://archive.is/85RX3

[bradknowles]

My wife and I lived almost eight years in Belgium. I learned enough French that I could get in trouble with cab drivers. And trust me, I really tried. But French is a language that just goes in one ear and out the other for me. Unlike Spanish or Italian.

My wife learned enough business French that she was able to survive, but never became fluent.

There are just some people who cannot learn the local language, no matter how hard you may want to force them to do so or how long they've been living in that country. And I think it's a huge mistake to try to force them, or to judge them poorly for being unable to warp their mind around something that is a fundamentally alien concept for them.

[triyambakam]

As a linguist, the evidence is simply that your wife (or whoever) simply did not get enough exposure to language she understood, at the level she was at. Unless someone has a true learning disability, the only way one doesn't learn the language is because they weren't able to get the right input. And I say that without any blame - for whatever reason it was, that is the cause.

[bradknowles]

My wife did much better than I did, even though she never became fully fluent.

I will agree that I didn't go to a full immersion language school. But we did arrange for multiple tutors, some on our own dime and some paid for by her employer or mine. And we interacted with the people in our neighborhood on a daily basis.

I found that those who were Flemish speakers would actively prefer to practice their English with me, while Francophones would usually switch to English grudgingly, once they discovered how bad my French was. There were a few Francophones who couldn't speak English at all, or who refused to switch, and interactions with them were very limited and not very productive.

I honestly tried to learn French, but none of it stuck.

In contrast, during those same years, my wife and I took three different vacations to Italy. Twice to Rome and once to Ischia and the Amalfi coast. And I swear to $DEITY that I learned and used more Italian in those four total weeks, than all the French I ever spoke over nearly eight years in Belgium. Something about Italian and Spanish is just far easier for me to pick up.

[genericlogic]

This reminds me of a recent experience of mine. I was raised bilingual Greek and English (English is my primary language). For my entire life I heard both of these languages and use them both the same. What I had never heard, until recently, was someone who learned Greek as an adult. I was so excited to speak to them because it was something completely new to me.

When they began speaking (Greek) it was like my brain shorted out. I was so excited for them but it took active mental effort to translate what they were saying. I began speaking to them in English and I nearly couldn't force myself to speak Greek.

This was not elitism or snobbery, it was like my brain decided the path of least resistance was English and I used it automatically. Very strange experience.

[enlavinx]

It's always a balance between efficiency vs willingness to support their learning efforts.

This reminded me of an article written by an American living in China recounting his early days there. In it he describes the tricks he developed to practice the local language despite the higher interest of the locals to practice their English with him.

https://www.sinosplice.com/life/archives/2010/05/18/language...

[pen2l]

How about Flemish then? It's one of the closest languages to English, so did you have an easier time with that?

[bradknowles]

You must have missed the part where I said that all the Flemish speakers I met wanted to practice their English with me?

I never got a chance to try to learn Flemish. Every single one of those speakers that I met, were also master linguists (whether they acknowledged it or not), and spoke at least six languages fluently, and those were the only ones they admitted to. They also spoke at least two or three other languages with less fluency, and yet they claimed only the ones in which they were fluent.

During the time I worked at Snow, BV (a Dutch consulting company), part of my employment agreement with them was that they would pay for and arrange to have a Dutch tutor for me, in Brussels. By someone who really spoke Dutch, not Flemish. Unfortunately, that never happened.

To my ears, Flemish and Dutch seemed to be the same language. But not to the Flemish people in Belgium -- to them, these are two distinct languages. The Dutch would agree with me.

And to my ears, both of these languages sound like German but spoken with English word sounds. Every time tried to listen closely, it would nearly break my brain.

[johannes1234321]

> I've lived in Germany myself (NRW). Idk, from my experience it's cool if you're in the young professional tech bubble

The GP talked about Berlin. Berlin is somewhat special as it attracts quite some foreigners. For me as a German-native it is sometimes weird if I go to a bar or something, outside tority, but "hip" areas and the bar staff only speaks limited to no German, so that the orders etc. have to be done in English.

There is quite a live you can life speaking only English. Of course once you leave the "hip" areas it becomes more limited.

[lynx23]

I am with OP, if someone is living in a foreign country for around 10 years and still dont speak the local language, that is displaying a certain disregard for the country they decided to life in.

As others have replied, maybe that is less of an issue in a certain tech-related bubble, but...

I have seen foreigners working in customer service who dont speak the local language sufficiently. People like you maybe expect the customer to speak english such that these people can fullfill the job? I don't.

[eloisant]

I don't think we should shame people for not speaking the language of the country they live in, however it's important to stress that you're really missing out when you don't speak the local language.

It will vary a lot by countries, because in some of them (i.e. northern european countries) everyone will be able to speak English so not only you have less incentive to learn the local language but it will be very difficult to practice because the local won't make the effort of speaking to you in their language until you're good enough (which you're not because you lack practice).

Speaking of Japan, as someone who lived there for a few years and reached a decent Japanese level, the English proficency of locals is not great so if you don't speak it you'll be stuck in your bubble of foreigners + Japanese people used to hang out with foreigners. I've seen a lot of foreigners not speaking Japanese after living several years in Japan, and most of them were wonderful people but they were like permanent visitors in the country they live which I thought was really too bad.

[Nathanba]

I think we should shame people for that: A nation is like a big family. You're essentially saying that you don't think that you should be able to talk to your own family in their language.

[rayiner]

It’s not only that. It’s just more work communicating with someone in your non-native language. Especially in Japan where many people don’t speak English well. So you’re creating an additional burden on the people around you.

And that absolutely should be shamed, especially when you’re talking about a society like Japan that places high value on individuals acting in ways that make things easier for people around them and society at large.

[JBlue42]

I don't think this sentiment would go over so well if I expressed it to people here on the West Coast of the US. Not to mention that there are people that will send their kids to bilingual schools for (and this is conjecture) either lefty political points or potential socio-economic reasons (dual language or Chinese immersion).

I personally love learning languages and am that person that tries to learn a little bit and communicate wherever I go. I does seem to be a hot button issue here in the US. I think people have different expectations. You hear stories of immigrants from the early 20th century that would force their kids to only speak English so that they would get on well in society. It seems like a difficult topic here around heritage vs managing in a society, especially for kids.

[haspok]

Are your friends journalists whose job is literally to understand and translate what is happening around them?

There is a guy working for the BBC in Budapest, Hungary, who learned to speak Hungarian quite well in the past ~3 decades. That shows dedication and enthusiasm, because Hungarian is one of the most useless languages to learn (in terms of the number of people you can speak with). Compared to that, learning Japanese even on a basic level is a no brainer... if you happen to live there for a decade!

[vintermann]

The US State Department classifies Japanese as a category IV language, "Super hard languages", languages which are exceptionally difficult for native English speakers. They estimate that you need 88 weeks, or 2200 class hours, to reach professional working level in it. That's if you're young, well-educated and very motivated.

By comparison, they estimate Romanian, Swedish and Spanish take 24-30 weeks, or 600-750 class hours.

Ten years is not much to just "pick up" Japanese, unless you're an exceptional linguistic talent.

[astrange]

That's including reading and writing skills, presumably. Spoken Japanese is not a hard language IMO. Reading and writing it without a dictionary on hand is much more difficult.

[nequo]

I can’t help but think that the interaction between you and parent is based on a misunderstanding. By “no brainer,” I think parent didn’t mean that Japanese is easier than Hungarian but that Japanese is much more useful than Hungarian in that you can speak it with around 10 times more people on Earth.

[noch]

> They live full lives, and I couldn't care less about their German levels. They do enough good things with their time they put their energy into instead.

What an odd mindset. Anecdotally, prior generations of Europeans (and expatriates) valued being multilingual. Having a working knowledge of German, Italian, French, English was fun, valuable, and normal especially when doing business in diverse countries and with diverse peoples.

That generation even taught us that "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." I guess that principle is no longer a thing.

[petodo]

> Having a working knowledge of German, Italian, French, English was fun, valuable, and normal especially when doing business in diverse countries and with diverse peoples.

That's nice with all these very similar languages using latin alphabet and now try it with Chinese characters and tones in China or at least kanji/hiragana without tones in Japan. Characters are huge barrier when learning the language, because you don't see words to memorize everywhere you look, you see just bunch of strokes. I really wish Chinese switched completely to pinyin as Vietnamese did (and Chinese intended, but didn't finish), it would remove huge barrier in communication (and also tehcnologically wise, after all most of the Chinese already write pinyin anyway on smartphones/computers, which just transcribe their pinyin back to characters) and people would realize Chinese is actually very simple language, where you don't have tenses, plural, etc.

As someone speaking English/German and my other two mother languages I can still understand some Italian, French or Dutch (which is basically English mixed with German by drunk sailor), because of how similar these languages are, so picking up some of them would be very easy compared to Chinese/Japanese (well at least Japanese has much more loaned words from English than Chinese).

[amrocha]

Do you actually speak Chinese or Japanese? Because either of those languages with phonetic characters would be a nightmare imo.

The characters actually make it easier to learn the language imo, and anyone who claims otherwise hasn't actually tried to learn seriously

[skhr0680]

Vietnam and Korea have mostly dispensed with Chinese characters and are doing fine

[tsukikage]

Strangely enough, the official languages there are Vietnamese and Korean respectively, not Chinese or Japanese.

[eloisant]

I don't know about Vietnamese but you can really make a parallel between Korean and Japanese.

Korean was using kanji the same way Japanese are using them now, and Japan could totally switch to hiragana only like Korea went for hangul. I've had some Japanese friends who were advocated for hiragana only, and were writing (on Twitter or blog posts) in hiragana only.

Yes, once you know kanji it's easier to read that full hiragana, but there is a point to be made about how learning kanji is difficult. Not just for foreigners, but also for Japanese students from first grade to high school.

[thablackbull]

> I really wish Chinese switched completely to pinyin

Perhaps Americans would take the first step and switch from imperial to metric, then we can discuss and tell everyone what to do.

[petodo]

Yes, they should, but not sure how is it relevant to what I WISHED for, I didn't tell anyone what to do and I'm clearly not an American.

[HKH2]

> I really wish Chinese switched completely to pinyin

That's like wishing English would switch to IPA because English spelling is wildly inconsistent - which English would you choose? People who speak different dialects can still understand each other using written Chinese, whereas Pinyin is for Mandarin only.

[petodo]

almost everyone using smartphones and computers already use pinyin anyway when they are inputting Chinese characters, it's just redundant at this point, part of tradition without practical meaning

[HKH2]

> almost everyone using smartphones and computers already use pinyin anyway when they are inputting Chinese characters

Cantonese speakers don't use Pinyin.

[epups]

Prior generations of Europeans were also xenophobic as hell, to the point of going to war with each other. I really don't understand which idyllic past you refer to here.

[ajsnigrutin]

Everybody has gone to war with eachother in every continent all the way through history.

If you go live in a country (long-term, which 10 years is), you should learn the language and not expect the locals to try to conform to your not-knowing the language... you're there, it's their country, their language, not vice-versa. How can you expect a country where people employed there don't know the local language to even work? Imagine a postman, a service worker, etc. not knowing german.. how is that going to work? When stuff like this happens, you get immiggrant ghettos and yes, in turn xenophobia, because people there cannot get normal jobs and expect the germans to adapt to them instead of vice-versa.

[epups]

If I live in the country for 10 years, then it is my country too. Perhaps it is in my interest to learn the language, and perhaps it isn't. There are plenty of countries in the world where people get by perfectly fine without even having a unifying language.

Do you guys know how every language came to be? It was through the interaction of people from different cultures, and it is an ongoing process. Germany was not even a country not so long ago. I reject the normative notion that learning a language is central to being a positive member of a community.

[rayiner]

> If I live in the country for 10 years, then it is my country too

Lol no. You’re not a sovereign individual. You’re part of a society, and every society is the product of people who have a culture that’s been cultivated over generations. Japan is a creation of the Japanese—the fruit of generations of Japanese people building a society according to their culture—not some foreigner who’s lived there for a fraction of a lifetime.

[epups]

Japan is not a a lone entity as well. It exists in a concert of nations. It buys and sells products from elsewhere. If you showed how modern Tokyo looks like to a Japanese from only 100 years ago, they would have a breakdown. Meanwhile, to the average Westerner, Tokyo is perfectly understandable, although of course unique.

Let's just take one example. John von Neumann - a gasp immigrant - may have more to do with how America looks like today than anybody alive in the 1800s. Should America make some silly rule like you propose, and say that people like him are not welcome there, or that America does not "belong" to them? I suppose you support giving back the land to indigenous tribes then?

[astrange]

Strong statement about a country that completely reinvented itself in 1868 (largely by copying the West) and then was forcefully reinvented (again by the West) in 1947.

[ajsnigrutin]

Yeah, sure, you're able to get by without learning anything in some places... but you are a foreigner who came to their country, and instead of you adapting to the local culture (..well language), you expect literally everyone around you to adapt to your culture (..language) and use a non-native language to interact with you.

Imagine a brit going to france, driving his car on the "wrong" side of the road and saying "it doesn't matter, people just drive around me, it's not an issue".

[cc81]

As you age and require more and more services from the state of those countries do you think that country should provide you with an interpreter? You might encounter government employees, healthcare professionals or elderly care that does not speak English.

[izacus]

And the new generations will increasingly become xenophobic again as arrogant foreginers with no will to learn local language move in.

It's a massive trend in Europe again and it will not end well for the expats.

[epups]

Yes and then maybe expats will go contribute their skills elsewhere, in a clear loss to the arrogant locals who think speaking language X is more important than living peacefully and contributing to the social welfare that depends on a young workforce that Europe can no longer produce.

[apelapan]

It will be a three-way loss. For the natives who lose out on services, for the expats who clearly actively chose being expats in a particular location over all other options available to them and finally for the natives where the expats relocate who have to suffer those assholes (in exchange for services).

[michaelscott]

Prior generations were more likely to remain in a specific geographical area (eg. central or western Europe) and so taking the time to learn these specific languages made sense. Learning other European languages as a European is also not that far of a leap (unless we're talking Hungarian or Finnish).

Modern generations are constantly on the move in a globalised world. It's not uncommon for that European to end up working in Asia nowadays, where their knowledge of other European languages is useless.

[lynx23]

It is still a thing, however, not for hardcore leftists. They will be very fast in calling you a nazi or at least faschist if you utter sentences like that. I am guessing they dont want to see their utopia fail, so they ignore everything which would be evidence against their view of the world.

And its fucking sad, because I used to see myself as part of "them". However, this inability to reflect about ones own failings has totally alienated me.

[insane_dreamer]

But (I'm assuming) they're not journalists whose _job_ it is to _understand_ and report on events in Germany. So I think the OP's critique is valid in that context.

Edit: Also, you can get by perfectly without knowing the local language in some cities on the continent, such as Berlin (Stockholm, Copenhagen, Oslo would be others). That is not true of Tokyo unless you're staying in an expat bubble. I spent 6 years in Beijing, and you had the expats who didn't know Chinese and all lived in one section of the city where you could get by on English alone, but that section most definitely did not represent the rest of China or provide a deep understanding of the country and its people.

[trompetenaccoun]

Berlin is full of people with attitudes like that (both local and foreign), and that's part of the reason why the city is in such a sorry state. It's funny, in addition to those expats who only speak American/British you get a ton of immigrants who speak neither English nor German in a way that any sort of meaningful conversation would be possible. But it doesn't matter because no one cares, not even the government. And then every other week in a moment of brief clarity, some of them wonder why nothing works, from mail delivery over construction to even just holding an election.

In summary: AchBerlin.jpg

[pell]

>And then every other week in a moment of brief clarity, some of them wonder why nothing works, from mail delivery over construction to even just holding an election.

Berlin has plenty of issues. But I don't think the points you raised here are meaningfully connected with people's language skills.

[luckylion]

It's not about skill, it's about willingness to learn the language. It's about people not caring to learn the language and choosing to not be able to communicate with the people around them (except for that small bubble of their friends and the wait staff they expect to adapt to them).

That willful ignorance to anything around you is typically not limited to learning the language, and I agree that it seems to be at the core of Berlin's identity. Berliners love it. I loathe it, and I'd prefer not to send money to Berlin each year so they can continue in their ways.

[mvcatsifma]

Amsterdam is like that, maybe just a bit less dysfunctional. I think it's a matter of respect and decency to learn the language of the country you live in.

[Tainnor]

That seems rather confused. The circle of English-speaking expats doesn't really intersect much with the circle of people responsible for local politics, all of whom speak German.

Blaming expats for the fact that Berlin's politicians are incompetent (which they are) makes no sense to me.

[rayiner]

There is a good reason: not being antisocial to the people in the country you are visiting. Most Germans speak English, sure, but dealing with someone that doesn’t speak your native language is incrementally harder and your friend is externalizing that cost onto everyone he interacts with.

[donw]

If one can't bother learning the language of the country in which they live, any opinion one might have on that country can be safely discarded.

[314]

This take is a bit basic.

[ad404b8a372f2b9]

It's not verbose but it seems pretty self-evident to me. In Europe most people speak only the local language and little English, if you don't speak the language you're not integrated.

Your local businesses won't speak English, your baker, the cab drivers, the people working the public transport, at your local convenience store, the government officials, the deliverymen, your child's school-teacher, other parents at school, 90% of the people you will cross path with on the street, most written and recorded information about local events...

[petodo]

> Your local businesses won't speak English, your baker, the cab drivers, the people working the public transport, at your local convenience store, the government officials, the deliverymen, your child's school-teacher, other parents at school, 90% of the people you will cross path with on the street, most written and recorded information about local events...

And why would I wanna speak with baker, cab driver, public transport workers, convenience store workers, deliverymen, etc.?

I don't speak to these people even back home, I just buy what I want in shop, put it on checkout and pay, only thing you need to learn is answer question about loyalty card or plastic bag and the way you wanna pay (by card), all you need to learn is two words "No" to plastic bag, show your loyalty card if you wanna use it and say "card" and show it so you can pay.

I can order taxi in the app, get in, say greeting and sit there until arrival.

Public transport workers are closed in their cabin and you should NOT speak to them.

Deliveryman will just call you he is on the way, if you are at home and to come downstairs and you just sign or pick up your package, sdo you just need to say "OK, I'm home" to phone.

Other parents in school not speaking English are honestly not worth speaking (similar with obese people since that shows a lot about them), because if you don't speak English it shows bigger ignorance than not being able to speak local obscure language as English speaking foreigner.

School teachers tend to be old, so yes, you could hit language barrier there and would have to deal with that with some English speaking parent.

90% people on the street won't speak English, but for sure majority of adults in productive age will at least in big cities where foreigners move (and in Scandinavia you could hit even that 90% probably).

Most written information online can be easily translated with built in translator.

Honestly only place where you need to speak local language is communication with gov officials since those often tend to be PITA/xenophobic projecting their own complexes since successful people won't work for gov, it's usually job for lazy people who don't mind lower pay and were most likely also lazy to learn English (but to be fair to them, many of them speak English as well).

[luckylion]

> And why would I wanna speak with baker, cab driver, public transport workers, convenience store workers, deliverymen, etc.?

Yeah, why would you ever want to speak to people who aren't important. Fucking serfs, they should stay in their place and silently serve you.

I agree, that kind of person's opinion on the country around them can safely be ignored, because it's based on ignorance.

[petodo]

>> And why would I wanna speak with baker, cab driver, public transport workers, convenience store workers, deliverymen, etc.?

> Yeah, why would you ever want to speak to people who aren't important. Fucking serfs, they should stay in their place and silently serve you

Seems like you are projecting some of your own issues into what I wrote, because I didn't write anything about "fucking serfs" or these people not being important.

I don't see reason why would I wanna speak with them while they are doing their job, same as I don't expect anyone speaking to me, when I am doing my job (unless your job is speaking to people in call centre). We can all speak happily together after work in our spare time (in which case they cease to be bakers, cab drivers, etc. and they are just people), during work time you should work instead wasting time on small talk, so I see nothing wrong with expecting people providing services for money to provide me service I am paying for without annoying small talk wasting everyone's time including them.

[ad404b8a372f2b9]

90% of people on the street won't speak English in big European cities, no. I'm sure you can find some cities where they do like Stockholm, but that's the exception not the rule.

The rest of the things you said only confirm you have no intention to integrate and to be a pleasant addition to the community you live in. Your comments about people who don't speak English, and your attitude towards local workers are pretty vile.

[petodo]

> 90% of people on the street won't speak English in big European cities, no.

And who chose that percentage as some holy grail or something important? I'd say in big European cities at least 40-60% of people in productive age (18-60) will speak at least basic English, though not sure how is it relevant, even if only 1/3 of people in street spoke English it would be plenty.

> The rest of the things you said only confirm you have no intention to integrate and to be a pleasant addition to the community you live in.

The rest of the things have nothing really to do with integration since I behave same even in my home country, I don't see reason to wate my time with small talks and people doing their jobs, I have better things to do like spending time with my kids or rest. Not even sure what's pleasant addition and what's the community, those are foreign words for me, I am independent adult who doesn't feel urge to be part of some community as some young childless kid looking for their place in the word.

> Your comments about people who don't speak English, and your attitude towards local workers are pretty EFFICIENT/TIME SAVING.

FTFY

[varnaud]

The way you write feels like English isn't your first language. Sorry if I'm wrong, French is my native language. But in case you had to learn English, you need to understand that you had the time, resources and intelligence to learn it to a very proficient degree. This isn't true for everyone. The parents you're calling obese and ignorant, they might be a bit like you in that they don't want to use their time to learn something they don't really have to and rather spend time with their children. Older folks usually had very poor English education at school if any and consumed zero English media, unlike a kid today with access to the Internet.

Also in many countries, teachers and hospital workers, amongst other professions, are government workers. You calling them usually lazy people is insulting and ignorant.

[petodo]

I mean it's quite obvious I am not native English speaker and I don't bother to perfect my language.

> you need to understand that you had the time, resources and intelligence to learn it to a very proficient degree.

English is taught on this level for decades already, so it would be odd if you were in productive age and didn't experience it.

> The parents you're calling obese and ignorant, they might be a bit like you in that they don't want to use their time to learn something they don't really have to and rather spend time with their children.

Nothing wrong with that, same as I find nothing wrong with me for not intending talk to them, while commenter I'm responding to thinks we should talk to each other.

> Also in many countries, teachers and hospital workers, amongst other professions, are government workers. You calling them usually lazy people is insulting and ignorant.

Gov official is someone working directly for gov, meaning (gov) bureaucrat. Teachers, hospital workers I would call state workers, certainly not gov "officials", but maybe my understanding in English is wrong.

[zirgs]

In many countries governments are only allowed to communicate in the official language.

So stuff like tax forms or whatever will not be available in any other languages. You'll have to get a translator yourself.

[petodo]

> Honestly only place where you need to speak local language is communication with gov officials

That's what I wrote. But how often you deal with gov officials and various forms, on average once or twice a year? Is it worth learning whole new language to fill bunch of forms, which can be filled with help of friend within few minutes?

Btw. officials are not allowed LEGALLY communicate with you in other than official language (in letters, official forms). In spoken language it's their word against your word in case of argument, so there is no reason (other than being lazy) to not hold informal communication in English, if the official is nice/welcoming person (and it's actually required in some positions with foreigners, despite legal documents being only in local language).

[vintermann]

I suspect that most people who proclaim sentiments like that in this thread (of course, just learn Japanese!) do not speak a second language at a conversational level at all.

That people grossly underestimate how hard it is to learn languages, is why Duolingo is in business. And Berlitz, Pimsleur, and Rosetta Stone before them.

The guy didn't say he spoke _no_ Japanese. He said he spoke _little_ Japanese. And for an adult native English speaker, who probably could not get very good social immersion even if he wanted, that is not surprising. No, not even after 10 years.

Two of my friends were into Japanese culture in a big way when I was young in the 90s. Both watched a lot of anime, obviously. Both had excellent second language (English) grades and at least decent third language (French) grades, so it's safe to say both had above average talent for language acquisition. Both went to study Japanese at university. Both moved to Japan. Both struggled with the language.

[fomine3]

Isn't it opposite? IMO English natives tend to think that English should be okay in everywhere. European multilingual may think "just learn Japanese" but it's harder compared to european language for europeans

[ubercore]

I'm an American living in Norway, in a larger city (for Norway). It's hard to learn, because when I try my burgeoning Norwegian, they immediately switch to English. I don't blame them at all, but I see how someone speaking English could not learn Norwegian in 10 years and be very happy.

[miroljub]

That's because you are visibly American. If you looked more like a southerner, you'd have much better, they wouldn't switch to English. On the other hand, they wouldn't even speak a Norwegian to you.

[ubercore]

I don't think it's looks, it's accent. Often someone will start a conversation with me in Norwegian before I've spoken, then switch when I answer. Granted, My Norwegian is not great yet (A2/B1 level), but it still definitely makes it harder to practice and learn here.

[radiator]

You could answer their English in Norwegian, or even some other language, e.g. French. If you have started the conversation in Norwegian, they should not assume you can speak English anyway.

[ubercore]

True, but politeness feels like continuing in English, because I have no idea if they care to struggle through a conversation with me, and asking people that 5 times through the course of every day starts to wear me down.

[Tainnor]

Yeah you have to get over the "politeness" hurdle if you want to seriously learn a language.

When I go to Spain, I will always try to speak Spanish and if they reply in English (which they often do because I make mistakes and/or have an accent), I just keep replying in Spanish. That may be seen as "rude" or inefficient by some (although others probably appreciate the effort), but it's really the only way you can keep making progress. (Of course, if it really gets too complicated you can still switch - but usually people switch way before they've reached the end of their skills.)

[randomluck040]

In my opinion there are lots of external factors to it. I’m also German and we probably both know that especially lots of years back we could’ve set things up differently in terms of integration (which to some degree included learning the language).

[Tainnor]

> I'm German, living in Berlin, and have wonderful friends who fit that description. They live full lives, and I couldn't care less about their German levels. They do enough good things with their time they put their energy into instead.

I know many people like that too (also in Berlin), and they usually get stressed out whenever they have to deal with their landlord, or any government agency, etc. In addition, there are still areas even in Berlin where the baker or shopkeeper will not speak English well enough. Finding doctors could also prove more difficult, and so on. And what if you have children at some point and they go to school? Unless you can afford some fancy private school, everything will be in German.

Sure, you can get by without German for a while - especially if you have friends who can deal with certain things for you. But you'll just really be very dependent on others and their goodwill instead of being in charge of your own life.

[tpm]

But they do speak English? You can live with that comfortably in Germany and in Berlin especially, probably much less so in many other countries.

[worik]

Your wonderful friends are not reporting on German society back home. (An assumption I know)

I agree it is outrageous that the BBC correspondent could not speak Japanese