[GalenErso]

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly.

The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively expensive. That 2035 deadline is never not going to be pushed back unless the EV industry pulls a rabbit out of a hat.

[jws]

Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it from gelling but still run adequately to move you along.

Sometimes we forget that we have 100 years of infrastructure behind our internal combustion engines and about 10 behind the electric vehicles.

In the first 10 years of internal combustion engines, you bought benzene at the local apothecary and used that to fuel your car.

Three years of EV in a more or less unheated garage and I'm still just charging off my 15A 120V outlet. It's fine. I plug in every other day or so. But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all.

[cwalv]

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all.

Right! And I suspect by 2035, not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave in your kitchen in the mid 90's.

[pmontra]

Not everybody has a garage. Cities are full of parked cars in front of residential buildings. It did park my car in a street when I was living in a city.

By 2035 those streets must be refitted with chargers, one per parking slot and somehow replace the energy distributed as gasoline and diesel with electrical energy. If that doesn't happen people will have to leave their car at a charging station for far more time than what it takes to fill a tank with gas. And that doesn't solve the problem of the energy.

Or having a car will get so expensive that only a few people will afford it and that will solve all those problems, but create others.

[acdha]

Cars should be more expensive to cover their externalities but considering that cars spend 95% of the day parked and most people are not driving hundreds of miles per day, it seems likely that the combination of charging points at parking garages and similar structures, homes, streetlights, etc. is going to reach a level where most people can charge more than they need to. In fact, since solar has such massive daylight spikes we probably should be thinking about what we can do to get people to charge their cars at work instead of overnight.

[Vecr]

If someone actually believes in democracy, they should try to get politicians to agree with the statement "cars should be more expensive to cover their externalities" on the record. In the US, almost every single one would dodge the question or outright disagree. Even the ones not running for re-election don't want to ruin their and their party's reputation.

[Kaibeezy]

Many (surely the majority of) Americans like and/or are dependent on cars. They are happy to be able to vote to shrug that externality off to the overall population.

When the majority of Americans dislike and/or are unhappy with 100° Thanksgiving, beepocalypse, aging out of being able to drive, or whatever else “cars” wreck, then they will start voting to push the externalities off to heavier users.

Eventually, the resulting ghost sprawl of empty suburban neighborhoods will provide enough recyclable building materials to rehome us all nicely in subterranean hive cities. Our eyes will evolve larger to gather the dim light. Our ears will shrink to muffle the incessant hum. Our useless teeth will disappear after a few centuries of microbial food paste consumption. Clothing will become an affectation.

[adrianN]

Someone already pays for the externalities. It's just not (exclusively) those who benefit from causing them.

[acdha]

There’s an entire urbanism movement trying to shift things here, but the focus tends to be on removing the hidden subsidies[1] so costs are more visible and making alternatives better. The entire state of California just made density easier to build, which is really important.

Alternatives are important here since while most Americans drive that doesn’t mean that they love everything about it and won’t consider alternatives. There are a ton of people who would love not to pay thousands of dollars to sit in traffic and make their health worse, but they don’t see a good alternative. The activists getting bike infrastructure, improved buses, and density are giving them that option and climate change is causing a lot of younger people to realize that the timing has to be stepped a lot since even EVs produce more CO2 than any other form of ground transportation.

There’s big generational component here, too. Most drivers aren’t old enough to think of roads without traffic as normal, and economic trends mean that a lot of younger people are faced with even longer commutes in cars, not to mention that transit is more appealing when you have smartphones.

1. In addition ti the obvious one of pollution, housing & retail prices are high due to requirements to provide subsidized parking to drivers. Removing that allows owners to make different decisions.

[toyg]

Believing in democracy as the least-worst way to set public policy has nothing to do with your own priorities.

I personally think urban development should be more expensive to cover its externalities (i.e. forcing people to buy cars because of landowner-enriching sprawl).

Get your politicians to call my politicians.

[baeaz]

Given that practically every family has at least one car, I don't see how this is useful.

[Rebelgecko]

I don't totally agree with the magnitude of how much more work needs to be done- we don't have one gas pump per ICE car, and electric cars don't need to be charged every day.

It's fair to say that people hogging chargers even when they're done charging is a problem, there's a public charger on my street that is near 100% utilization. However this seems pretty solvable- companies can just charge per minute as long as the spot is occupied and let the free market sort it out.

Adding public chargers is also a great way for places like malls, grocery stores, offices, etc to stay relevant, since my weekly shopping trips would probably be enough to keep a car topped off

[ashwagary]

>It's fair to say that people hogging chargers even when they're done charging is a problem, there's a public charger on my street that is near 100% utilization.

Makes sense to charge a penalty every minute a charger is connected but not drawing power (full battery).

[lkiernan]

If you put them in convenient places then ICE cars will also park there and not be connected.

[dotancohen]

Does the street already have street lights? If so, then presumably there already is an electrical distribution network running alongside the street. If it was designed with sodium vapor lamps in mind, but has been upgraded to LEDs, then EV charging infrastructure is withing its capabilities.

[jaclaz]

Yes, the line was designed for 250W sodium vapour lamps, you replace them with 60W led lamps AND you use some 20% original overprovision and you can have 250x1.2-60=240W per post.

[wpm]

In a city you’re not likely to be farther than a mile away from a high speed charger. It’s perfectly reasonable for a small city car to “fill up” occasionally to cover the short mileage they’re likely to see between charges anyways.

I don’t have an EV or a car at all, but if I did my charging regimen would be “plug it in at the fast charger at the grocery store and charge it while I shop”. It’s just not a big deal.

We certainly don’t need to make our residential streets more ugly than having a bunch of cars parked on it already does by stringing up charging infrastructure all over it.

[not_me_ever]

In Finland we have 220v outlets at every parking spot, since the batteries of ICEs just die during the -20C winter nights without being hooked up.

We all charge our EVs on those same outlets, and I never heard of anybody not having a full charge the next morning.

The main reason why we have so many EVs here -> they are more reliable in the cold. People stopped freezing to death in their Diesels that got stranded on the roadside.

[devb]

> not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave

What about the millions of people who live in apartments and rowhouses?

[EdwardDiego]

Well, if they're smart, they've built their cities in such a way that cars are only something you hire for your vacation, rest of the time, a bike and/or a train pass is sufficient.

[biggc]

Ah, the Stack Overflow classic “this is a wrong problem to have”

[EdwardDiego]

It's more the circular reasoning that frustrates me - we built our cities for ICE cars, therefore EVs aren't suitable, because we built our cities for ICE cars.

You've got to break that circle at some point.

[dragonwriter]

> What about the millions of people who live in apartments and rowhouses?

If they have cars, they have a place to park them, and this place can host a charger. Outdoor parking without access controls may have security issues, but that's true without a charging point, too.

[Too]

A place where you can’t even park your car outdoors unattended is not a place you want to live in in the first place.

[rconti]

Just got back from the UK. The neighborhood I was in had charge sockets on every 3rd or 4th parking post. You wouldn't even know they were there if not for the tiny little LED.

[bennyelv]

I can confirm as someone who lives in the uk, that is not normal.

There are a significant proportion of residential developments where it wouldn’t even be possible to install such infrastructure due to the legal framework around how the properties are owned and maintained.

Legislative changes are needed here to make this happen, but alas our government has had its mind on “other things” for quite a few years now and doesn’t seem to be doing anything about it.

[RajT88]

In some ways the UK is a view into the future of the US.

But this is not it.

Wealthy neighborhoods in the US are going to get these on the streets eventually. Places where poor folks live don't have the ROI needed to justify it. Wealthier folks tend to be older and have more time on their hands to do things like go complain at city council meetings.

You're going to get these chargers in the richest neighborhoods first (of course), and eventually to the decent middle class neighborhoods. The poorer areas where blue collar workers live (apartment complexes) will get it approximately never - the city won't invest in those areas because fuck them, and the apartment complexes won't invest in them, because fuck them.

https://youtu.be/MqkT4B-9MGk

[dazc]

This isn't representative of the UK as a whole though and, likely, never will be. Providing charging points for middle-class homeowners at the expense of basic infrastructure and countless other spending 'priorities' would be considered political suicide in most high-density locations outside of London.

[josephcsible]

Where do those people park their cars now? Wherever that is, put a charger on a post next to the spot.

[StanislavPetrov]

And where does the electricity come for those chargers? Huge swaths of the USA are experiencing rolling blackouts right now because there isn't enough electrical capacity.

[adrianN]

Try building some generators? Renewable energy is cheap and a perfect match for charging cars, just adjust the charging current to match current generation.

[twarge]

And the car batteries can supply peak demand instead of having a blackout.

[dotancohen]

Rolling blackouts are being experienced because the delta between high day usage and low night usage is too great to invest in upgraded peak-capable infrastructure. Charging vehicles at night will actually _improve_ the situation.

[poulsbohemian]

At least some of those people will continue to rely exclusively on public transportation, the same as they do today. In our urban areas, public transportation + car sharing / rental services make a whole lot more sense than continuing to incentivize everyone to own a car (electric or otherwise)

[mynameisvlad]

I have a charger in my uncovered townhouse spot. It’s really not a big deal. Nowhere near what you and other commenters here are making it out to be.

[jopython]

My HOA woulndn't allow that in our common parking area.

[akmarinov]

2035 US is 2022 Europe, if your garage has power - you have 220v

[nicoburns]

Or indeed 1960s Europe for that matter. I believe most US homes have a ~240v supply, even if they don't have any outlets that allow them to use it.

[bluGill]

in the very early days of utility serice some houses got 110 volt only, but most of them got upgraded to 220 in the 1950s.

[vardump]

I think in Europe other than older buildings, garages have mostly 400V 3 phase. At least in northern parts, probably a lot worse in southern parts.

[hef19898]

Land lines are 400 V 3 phase in Germany, as you need those for the elecrric ovens and that is what utilities deliver. Standard plugs and wiring are 240 V. So every garage would at least have 240 V, if there is a plug, and 400 V can be installed.

[chess_buster]

To be honest, we had 220V in the Garage since I was born about 40 years ago.

[Schnitz]

How many people in the US do really not have 220V in the garage? I bet a lot of homes have either a sub-panel (and thus could add 220V very easily) or a laundry (dryer socket, 220V).

[zainhoda]

My guess is that older homes in the northeast will have an issue not with adding the outlet but upgrading from 100amp to 200amp service. I was quoted $10k for that upgrade. I had to decide between getting an EV and getting a heat pump. Decided on the heat pump, which I’m very happy with — it’s saving me thousands on heating oil.

[mec31]

Can confirm. I have an 1898 house in the Northeast. Just upgraded from 100A service to 200A service for $3900. I didn’t own the house at the time, but I believe it went from 40A to 100A in 1985.

[chrisdhoover]

I dont have 220 in the garage. Of course 220 is coming into the panel but there is no circuit breaker, wiring or outlet. In my experience this is common. 220 is only provided for washers, stoves, and HVAC. Can a 220 outlet be added, certainly, but it is not default.

[jsjohnst]

Washing machines very rarely are 240V in the US, they usually are 120V. It’s electric dryers that are 240V.

[Schnitz]

That's my point though, you can add a 220v socket pretty cheaply given there's a panel.

[nickthegreek]

I think most of us don’t even have garages.

[sokoloff]

I don’t right now in my detached garage (though I buried conduits during recent landscaping to permit me to pull them later). Right now, I have a 120V, 15A circuit out there that powers everything.

Regardless, my cheap LEAF turned 8 just a bit ago and I’ve driven it in New England year-round for 8 years without issue, even with only level 1 charging at home. It’s fine for an around-town daily driver (which is what the LEAF is well-matched to).

[fsckboy]

the 220 circuit to your dryer and the 220 circuit to your electric stove do not have the capacity to add more items to the wiring (the stove is a much higher capacity circuit btw). Yes, it's true that you wouldn't need to use your car charger while you use your appliances, but that's not how residential building code circuits work. I suppose there must be or at least could be a solution to switch the power over? But you can't just go plugging it in and remain within code.

my brother does a lot of stuff with power tools, and whenever he moves he has to have extra lines brought in by the power company. While houses frequently have 220 coming in, they don't have 3-phase.

[bdcravens]

New house built this year. No 220V in the garage (utility room is inside the house - I used to connect my charger there and run it to garage). However, I was able to easily add 220V, even as a first time DIYer.

[doubled112]

I'm in Canada in a house built in 2012. Attached garage - my living room is above it.

The breaker panel is in the garage so it'd be easy to add, but my only 220V devices, the dryer and stove (along with their outlets), are inside the house.

I've never heard of a dryer in the garage before. It isn't heated, and in winter months, it's cold enough that snow doesn't melt. Would that have an effect on drying my clothes?

[bdcravens]

They'd probably still dry, it just may take more energy, depending on your dryer.

Funny enough my internal dryer can cause my clothes to be damp, as the exhaust runs to the attic instead of directly outside, and the moisture can come back into the dryer. (can be overcome by installing an active exhaust fan)

[fsckboy]

you can dry clothing by hanging it on a line outside in winter, the vapor pressure of ice is a positive number. So, yes, your dryer will work in the garage.

[dragonwriter]

> How many people in the US do really not have 220V in the garage?

I only have 220V in an indoor laundry room, not the garage. Adding it would only be a small one-time expense.

[bdcravens]

Probably $500-1000 if you hire an electrician. I did it myself fairly easily (largest cost is the copper wire if it's not a short run; GFCI breaker can also add a little cost if you have to have one - it's code in some states)

[kzrdude]

I'm curious, is 220V (or 230V) more than twice as fast/twice as good as 110V? The discussion here makes it sound like it. All I know is that you'll need higher amperage with lower voltage, but it can compensate proportionally. I guess heat losses and other problems are significant, if it's a problem at 110V?

[murderfs]

At the same amperage, it's exactly twice as good, but if you're going to get a 220V outlet installed, you're also going to get a higher amperage circuit installed at the same time, so you can charge at 220V/50A instead of 110V/12A, which is 8x faster.

[jaclaz]

But you need also the electric company to be able to deliver that power, roughly 10kW, in addition to all your other electric appliances.

Common contracts - at least here (Italy) - are for 3 or 4.5kW, a few are 6 kW, 10 kW or more are rare, and you probably need to get to 15kW to be able to have those 10kW available for charging.

[xxpor]

Anything less than 48kw is essentially unheard of in new construction in the US, and even old houses with 24kw service are getting upgraded. Less than 24 is considered essentially unsellable.

[extrapickles]

It’s more than twice as losses are lower boosting 220v to the 400v or 800v the pack actually needs.

As an example, a charger in some EVs is 87% efficient when charging from 120v and the same charger is 94% efficient when charging from 240v.

[cesarb]

> All I know is that you'll need higher amperage with lower voltage, but it can compensate proportionally.

This discussion is assuming that the amperage is the same. The common "default" AC socket in the USA is AFAIK the NEMA 5-15, which is a 15A socket; the common "default" AC socket in other countries is AFAIK usually either 16A, 15A, or 10A, so at most you'd have one extra ampere.

Of course, if you're adding a dedicated socket where you'd expect to plug a car (or other high-power devices like a large air conditioner), you'd put a higher-power socket like a 20A one. But this discussion is, as far as I understand, about what you could find on a random garage; I believe it would be unexpected to not have at least one common "default" AC socket on am enclosed garage, but finding a higher-power AC socket would be less likely.

[justinclift]

Any idea how common or feasible it would be in the US to get ~400v 3 phase power to the garage?

Here in Australia it's possible, though not very common. ~400v is useful for some larger sized machinery.

[Too]

I don’t know about US but here in Northern Europe the utility outlets we use for stoves and such are not just higher voltage but also distributed over 3 phases rather than just one. This translates into sqrt(3)=1.7 times more of the cable can be used. For a 3x16A outlet you get 400V x 16A x 1.7 = 10kW.

Compared to a normal 220V 10A outlet where your max is 2kW.

Higher voltage also means you get more power for less current, less heat loss in the cables.

If you have an electric car, the example above should explain why you want to get a proper charger with proper wiring installed. Don’t use the ones which plug straight into a shuko.

[caf]

The battery heater is a fixed overhead, so even at the same amperage (and twice the power), if the weather conditions are such that the heater was taking 80% of the available power on a 15A/110V circuit, it'll only be taking 40% of the available power on a 15A/220V circuit, meaning the charging power is 6 times greater.

[treeman79]

Will power even be a thing?

Rolling power outages in many states last couple of days. Many forms of energy are being retired faster then wind solar are being brought online.

[otabdeveloper4]

By 2035 people won't be driving car-shaped objects, not unless they're professional taxi drivers.

[refurb]

People will still be driving car-shaped objected until 2055.

People wildly overestimate advances. Look at how much has changed in the last 20 years. Not much.

[otabdeveloper4]

Not as personal transportation, though. Too expensive and wasteful.

[oblio]

This is super ridiculous. How do you think this will happen? The buyer of the 2022 Toyota Corolla will just be banned from driving it in 2035? In the US they can't even ban guns, you expect individual driving of owned cars to be banned? :-)))

[otabdeveloper4]

Not banned. The car shape is probably the most inefficient form factor posssible for an electric vehicle, and economic and market forces will do their thing.

[neon_electro]

What will change between now and 2035 that will enable "economic and market forces [to] do their thing" that isn't already true today? Can you explain why the "most inefficient form factor possible" is still the norm today?

[davchana]

Hey, my apartment in Central California doesn't have microwave (although its a good apartment).

[thayne]

In 2035 I will most likely be living in the same home I am now, and putting a 220v outlet in my garage is a lot more expensive than buying a microwave.

[cwalv]

I suspect it will get cheaper, esp for the common case where you don't need to upgrade the service to your home, and there's already a panel/subpanel present. The cost is mostly labor, and in that case it can be installed in a couple hours or less. Also, 30% of the cost is already subsidized as part of the IRA. As EV prices become more competitive, such that having the outlet/charger installed in their garage is an actual burden for the ppl buying EVs, I wouldn't be surprised to see this subsidy increase

[msrenee]

And then you're replacing the fuel filters when it's below 0 F out because they got destroyed by the gelled diesel. And then you learn your lesson and keep a bottle of Power Service on hand if it's going to get cold and it's never a problem again.

It's literally as easy as having the right fuel additives on hand before it gets too cold. It's not even an infrastructure problem.

I will say that you left out the most fun part of a good winter driving a diesel, which is when you can't fill up even at a station with diesel on account of the fuel gelled in the pump hose. Luckily the gas station on the way home from work is a truck stop and the pumps for the tractor-trailers were still working.

On a related note, it's not unusual for us to lose power here for a couple hours to a couple days at a time either in the worst of winter, or during summer storm season. What do you do with an electric car when the electricity is out in the neighborhood?

[hef19898]

There is no winter diesel in the US?

[msrenee]

That's with winter blend.

[isityouyesitsme]

OK, 10 years behind EV. It makes sense that it is where it is. Please point out anywhere where anyone says the accomplishments are not remarkable on their own, if you are not comparing them to the thing with 100 years infra behind it.

Now compare that to the seemingly endless number of evangelists who think that 10 years from now is a good time to impose a mandate to kill all new ICE vehicle manufacturing, in spite of EV tech being only 80 years (or 30 years of "modern tech hard push") behind ICE infra.

This is how every conversation about EV goes.

Person A: "look how awesome EV is!"

Person B: "yeah, but it won't work for me based on where I live and the needs I have from a car. It seems foolish to push a mandate for a technology that can't be proven to work how the vast majority of people need it to work."

Person A: "you are being unfair in your comparison!" or "no, you are only imagining those problems!"

[adrianN]

We should kill all EV manufacturing five years ago. Spend the effort instead on building charging infrastructure, bike lanes, and public transport. Used cars are good for another fifteen years or so to cover edge cases where EV adoption is slower, giving us ample time to figure out solutions that don't drive mass extinction.

[quonn]

Bike lanes won‘t change a thing. Those who don‘t bike will mostly not be convinced by a lane. I know this, being born in a rather rural area with plenty of bike lanes. I‘m in favor of building them, but would take any bet that by itself that won‘t make a big difference.

Public transport will also have to be EV based. Trains won‘t cut it in most areas outside cities.

And besides - what you‘re saying is insanely risky. You want to keep going with ICEs for 15 years? This would just push back the necessary transition another decade. We would loose the time we desperately need to make the necessary changes.

[aliswe]

It's not a communist state

[adrianN]

Where did I ask for putting the means of production into the hands of the workers?

[bdlowery]

You will still be able to buy and drive ICE cars. What’s the problem?

[EdwardDiego]

Where does Person B live? In a hut in Siberia?

[isityouyesitsme]

C'mon, you have to purposefully be this obtuse. There's no other way it can happen.

Literally any location in the northern US, especially the more rural and more dense urban, and doubly true if you make under 30k per household person and don't already have a circuit in your garage for an electric oven or electric clothes dryer. I suspect the same is true for other locations in the world.

[defrost]

> I suspect the same is true for other locations in the world.

Well, FWiW the Australian (and New Zealand) standard across the entire country is 240v with (most) internal circuits rated for 10 A .. but a call to an electrician gets you a { 15 | 20 | 25 | 32 } amp circuit pulled from the household breaker box (if high amp circuits weren't added at build time) [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS/NZS_3112

In other EV news an Australian state (South Australia) had a net 104.1 per cent wind and solar over seven days (ie produced more renewable energy than total energy used and exported the excess) [2], and in my state "Renewables reach 84 pct share of world’s biggest isolated grid" [3]

[2] https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australias-incredible-week...

[3] https://reneweconomy.com.au/epic-stuff-renewables-reach-84-p...

So, uhh, we have the infrastructure to charge EV's in isolated rural parts of the country and have had for decades .. increased generation is an issue but we have plans to significantly increase global green hydrogen production and export excess over local demand.

[isityouyesitsme]

Right, so because your state and country is ahead in this area, everyone else is "a hut in Siberia?"

My comment specifically mentioned a 2030 or 2035 mandate, which is a US mandate. Why would you argue against a US mandate by talking about Australia? You're not doing the EV group any favors by ignoring the problems people describe that prevent them from buying one, and there is currently no US legislation to enable a mandate in the timeframe it would be required.

[kalleboo]

> and don't already have a circuit in your garage for an electric oven or electric clothes dryer. I suspect the same is true for other locations in the world

Only North/Central America and Japan uses ~100V systems. The rest of the planet uses ~200V systems where more wattage in your outlets is standard.

[cesarb]

> Only North/Central America and Japan uses ~100V systems. The rest of the planet uses ~200V systems

Brazil (which is in South America) has many cities using 110V/115V/120V/127V (you can see at https://antigo.aneel.gov.br/tensoes-nominais which voltages are used for a given city). Note that a single city can have both ~110V and ~220V, and sometimes both can be found in the same building, or even in the same room.

[EdwardDiego]

Yep,but I'm assuming that nearly everyone in the Northern US is on the grid. And yep, economic concerns dominate, I get that.

This is where I'd hope a government looking to encourage EVs would step in and help, if they're trying to make things happen before 2035.

E.g., in my area, the regional council has a scheme where home owners can get a very low interest (or even no interest) loan to install good insulation, and you can also get another one to install a heat-pump.

They're run through banks, but backed by the regional (and maybe central?) government.

But, doing something like this will, initially, only subsidise the people who can already afford to buy an electric vehicle.

TL;DR - it used to be that you couldn't refuel your car unless the servants brought more on horses, as the only service stations focused on oats. But we invested in infrastructure.

[msrenee]

In a little under half the US. We get at least a couple days a year where the wind-chill brings the temp below -40F with a thermometer temp of -5 or less as a high for the day. My gas car hasn't been happy about starting the last week. Two years ago, I was working 2nd shift and only had the diesel truck. Got to work fine, got off at 2 PM and even with winter blend and a bottle of Heat in the tank, the fuel gelled and tore up the fuel filters.

This is not an artic circle problem. This is a problem that affects way more of the world than you seem to realize. Sorry that we don't all live in mild climates.

[EdwardDiego]

> where the wind-chill brings the temp below -40F

I'm unsure why wind-chill is relevant to a car being charged in a garage?

> This is a problem that affects way more of the world than you seem to realize.

The original commenter was stating that EVs were entirely unsuitable for a hypothetical person.

The only way that it I can envisage it being entirely unsuitable is if they had no access to grid electricity.

My comment about a hut in Siberia is based on that.

Yes, some Americans might need to upgrade certain circuits, but that's not an blocker, it's just an implementation detail.

I'm very well aware of how cold it can get in the USA, but that doesn't prevent EV use, it just requires investment in infrastructure, and that's an investment I'd hope a smart government would subsidise if it's serious about reducing emissions.

[msrenee]

Everyone doesn't have a garage. If your infrastructure has the chargers on the street, we're back to the original issue where they don't charge well in the cold.

[StanislavPetrov]

Half of the United States feels like a hut in Siberia right now due to freezing temperatures and the lack of electrical capacity.

https://www.fox29.com/news/pennsylvania-warned-of-rolling-bl...

[Hamuko]

>But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all.

Filling up the car is the least painful part of driving in the winter. You park up next to a fuel pump with the heated seats slow-roasting your ass (and the car is probably warm by the time you reach a station), you get out of the car for about 4 minutes, and then you go back in the car to continue the slow roast.

[jiggawatts]

I heard stories about Russians in the red army setting a pan of fuel on fire under the engine block of their trucks to warm them up sufficiently to turn over and start.

Apparently some truck models over there have a built-in metal tray for this purpose.

[lb1lf]

I had a Lada Niva 4WD back in the day; part of the winterization package was an extremely heavy sump.

If you perused the manual, you found out why - it suggested you light a small fire under it to serve as an outback engine heater.

The Niva was, uh, an interesting car to own, but was amazing whenever conditions turned to shite. Nothing short of an anti tank mine would stop it.

[bruce511]

A long time ago, in a land far far away, I drop a fire engine. Big monster, 37 tons, with a giant v16 Rolls Royce diesel moter.

It didn't like starting in the cold, and it didn't have battery enough to crank it for long. And failure-to-start was, um, not good.

The solution was a built-in electric heater and charger. Basically it was permanently plugged in so the battery was 100%,and the engine block was "not freezing cold" (I wouldn't go as far as "warm").

Had a push button start that fired up instantly, at the cost of an extra 3 seconds unplugging it it an emergency.

My point I guess is that you don't really have to heat the garage, you just need to warm the battery up a little.

[NegativeLatency]

Crews did that while building the Alaska Canada highway too

[fsckboy]

you can buy heaters that you stick into your engine where the dipstick goes for checking the oil. plug em in overnight. I'm not sure at what temperature you would also need to heat the battery; maybe the residual heat is generally enough, but the warmed engine will crank a lot easier so less strain on the battery that way.

[EdwardDiego]

IIRC, that was about heating the oil.

[pard68]

Is that something that actually happens to diesel engines? I have multiple diesels and while they are difficult to _start_ in the cold they are fine once started for me. But yes, cold enough and combustion engines are hard to get going. My Subaru hates cold days, it'll go a few seconds on a below freezing day before ignition. My diesel tractors actually have electric plugs to keep the manifold hot.

[BenjiWiebe]

The reason diesel doesn't usually gel is that, starting in the fall, fuel stations/refineries start adding anti-gelling agents to the diesel.

If you have "summer diesel" in your tractor during a cold spell, it will gel. And a block heater won't help, since the fuel gels in the fuel lines and tank too. And trying to start the engine pulls in that gel into the fuel filter and sort of strains the chunks out, causing your fuel filter to need to be replaced even once it's warmed up.

I'm not sure at exactly what temperature it happens, but a Kansas winter will typically gel summer diesel at least a couple of times.

[rlkf]

Mostly it's the start battery that have problems in the cold. The diesel sold in Norway have anti-gelling substances added; cars run fine in -20 degC/-4 degF.

[pard68]

I live in the southern USA. So it makes sense that I have never heard of this. We had a -6°F night the other night but usually it'll freeze at night and be back above freezing by noon.

[maxerickson]

It's likely that the stations around you switch to a winter mix.

[bluGill]

diesel starts gelling at warmer than water freezes.

[bluGill]

number 2 diesel fuel will turn to jelly at a bit over 40f. That is warmer than water freezes. Number 1 diesel will be fine to well below zero, and you can mix them to get different gel points. There are also anti gel additives you can add to prevent gelling. Number 2 diesel has significantly more energy than number 1, and is also cheaper, so you want to run number 2 if possible.

[stephencanon]

Not anymore, at least in milder “extreme cold”. We live in northern New Hampshire, and never have an issue with our 328d wagon parked outside in -25F. It has a heater for the fuel line, and they add anti-gelling agents to diesel in winter.

[tim333]

It is an can be a pain for non diesel drivers if large trucks grind to a halt and block the motorway. That's happened in the UK in unusual cold spells.

[pard68]

Yes that'd be quite a problem. Our cold lasts so little here that I've never had a need to start any of my tractors in the freezing, just wait a day and it's back to warm.

[krater23]

>Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely.

I don't know where you live, but here in Germany my diesel car had no big problems with -19°C around 10 years ago. Biggest problem was heating the interior that the windows remain ice free during driving. I want to see your new electric car driving in this circumstances the 100km I had to drive.

And please note, 2035 means 13 years in the future. I don't doubt that the infrastructure for electric cars can work in 100 years...but what's with 13?

[jws]

my diesel car had no big problems with -19°C

It depends on the formulation of your diesel. If you had a tank of "summer diesel" it would be gel at that temperature. Generally the supply chain starts changing the formulation as the weather gets colder and everything is good until you get to arctic temperatures. But if you fill up at a station that doesn't sell a lot of diesel and they still have summer diesel and its an early cold spell, or you are driving a vehicle you don't fill often, you can be in trouble. There are also additives you can add on your own if you know you have summer diesel.

[Renevith]

Just yesterday I drove 75km in -22C, parked outside all day, then back home the same distance in -19C. Took my Model Y from 80% to 12%. No problem with heat either (that's part of why it used so much charge). I was a lot more worried about sliding off the road than running out of battery...

I believe you that it's no problem for a diesel. But it's no problem for electric either.

[jhoechtl]

What if you wouldn't make it home and have a night outside? Two times 75km and down to 12% charge is not inspiring confidence in such situations!

[Renevith]

When I left for the second drive, the car's navigation app estimated I'd have 13% left when I arrived, and the estimates have been impressively good so I just went for it.

But I also was in a good sized metro area with a couple Tesla superchargers not far off my route, so my backup plan was to stop at one for 15 minutes if it ever looked like I might not make it.

[michpoch]

What would have happened if there is a road closure and you need to drive extra 20kms? Or a traffic jam that would make you wait one hour?

[rad_gruchalski]

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all.

You have a garage. Those who don’t have a garage freeze their asses off in howling winds every second day while plugging the car into an outdoor charger.

[alphabettsy]

Diesel passenger cars aren’t popular in the US, certainly not in the segments that compete with EVs.

You’re right but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s not the right time for people in certain areas or with certain lifestyles to have an EV.

[estebank]

Why is it that when it comes to transportation the discussion is always talking past each other?

"Trucks don't belong in cities for personal transportation."

"I need a truck for my farm."

"Vehicle transportation is a huge chunk of global warming contributing fuel consumption, so we need to reduce car usage in cities towards more and better public transport, and EVs when possible."

"I don't live in a city and the bus only comes twice every day and I have to drive 30 miles to work."

These are not mutually exclusive statements!

EVs aren't great for long distance transportation. Particularly ill suited for long haul trucking in winter. But that's not what most people do. Most vehicles drive short distances in fair weather. Many American families have more than one car. That second car doesn't need to be able to drive cross country in the winter. I don't complain that my sneakers are not snow shoes so they are useless to me and anyone else. No one is talking about making ICE vehicles illegal. At most there might be restrictions on usage in cities, no different to how some european cities keep private cars outside of historical city centers.

[jhoechtl]

> No one is talking about making ICE vehicles illegal.

Certainly in Europe. Not directly but via a back door:

Must not enter the city center in a diesel car

No new ICE cars after 2035

[hef19898]

Which doesn't make them illegal to own, just impossible to register new ones. And that's ok, especially since all major car makers are in on it.

Diesel cars are an issue due to dust emissions. Most modern, read Euro 6 temp, and above, engines should be more or less fine. How the latter will be controlled and enforced so, excluding older cars from certain places, is trickey.

I have to point out so, this will be a social issue. Well off people will most switch to EVs, one of the reasons I guess why VW and others are diverting marketing budgets from EVs (read Diesel) to EVs. Those that cannot afford EVs will face issues, since it either used petrol cars, with higher consumption, or used diesels, with issues going to some places due to emissions.

[jakear]

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all.

Sounds like it's time for you to vote for the prohibition of self-service gas stations!

[gambiting]

But......EVs do work in cold weather? You lose a bit of range, but so what? My ICE car also gets worse mileage in winter.

And if you're talking about extremes - then there's a reason why block heaters with external power connections are very common in certain places - even the best ICE struggles to start in -40C or less.

[letitbeirie]

At those temperatures you're up against the flash point of gasoline, which is already the lowest of any (liquid) fuel I can think of.

[BenjiWiebe]

Remember that compression raises the temperature.

[simfree]

18Mpg becomes 10Mpg or worse in the winter in my experience. EV driving can be more efficient if you don't let your battery cold soak for hours, or equally inefficient if you do leave your car unplugged overnight.

[TedDoesntTalk]

I live in place that routinely goes below freezing in winter. I’ve never noticed gas mileage change because of temperature. I would definitely notice a difference of 8 MPG. Where do you get that info? Is it personal experience? If so, where do you live?

[gambiting]

I easily notice the difference in my car, it goes from about 8L/100km in summer to 10L/100km in winter. That's on the same tyres in both seasons.

[bch]

Driving through snow?

[gambiting]

No, just driving on the motorway, at a solid 140km/h. Did the exact same drive in winter and in the summer just this year and that was the difference in consumption(I want to add that I can see the difference in daily use too, but I just happened to do the exact same 700km drive where the only different factor was the season of the year, so it gave me a very good reference point for specific numbers).

[kevin_thibedeau]

Cold air is denser. Pushing it out of the way saps more energy and drops the effective work done. You're oblivious to it because a motor vehicle has so much available power on tap. It is very noticeable on a bicycle at high speeds.

Conversely. Sailboats get more efficient in cold temperatures because more energy is imparted on the sail.

[bumby]

>Cold air is denser. Pushing it out of the way saps more energy

ICE mpg tends to drop in cold weather, but this isn’t why. It’s usually because it takes longer to reach optimal operating temp or due to changes in fuel composition. Cold air can produce more drag but that problem exists irrespective of ICE or EV.

The pumping efficiency is unaffected as any losses on the exhaust side will be offset by increased pressure on the intake side.

[scott_siskind]

> It is very noticeable on a bicycle at high speeds

Huh? I've been cycling for 15 years, many of those years doing 15k km a year, all year round. Mountain biking on mountains at -15C, down to urban cycling in 38-40C scorching summer heat. I've never noticed speed, effort, stamina changing with temperature as you suggest.

And I've done lots of road cycling at constant 35-40km/h, descents of up to 70+km/h.

[pastage]

I am not really contradicting you here. Just want clarification from GP. My reaction was Huh? As well.

With N=15 years of gps data and 40-70 of those days per year below zero very few below -10°C. I can say that I ride slower on cold days on avarage.

I am not fit and do not track that at all. I can barely keep my avarage above 25km/h in city traffic for 15km, very few conflict points maybe twenty but not comparable to road cycling. So a km/h decrease of avarage speed during winter is common but not a given. I do not count bad road conditions, but Stockholm has really good maintanance during winter, ice free asphalt all year.

[bennyelv]

Interesting! I’m also a long time high volume cyclist, and I see a clear effect of slower rides in winter. I’m talking about around specific routes and training sessions where the point is to go as fast as possible. With the same power I seem to go more slowly when it’s cold.

Obviously there could be many reasons for this: less aerodynamic clothing, more cautious cornering etc etc, but the effect is very noticeable to me.

[kevin_thibedeau]

Track your time on a consistent route on paved, snow free roads. I guarantee you'll see a dip in winter.

Scorching heat with high humidity has an opposite effect. H2O drops the density of air and you can go measurably faster than in drier air.

[Manuel_D]

Colder air's increased density and bigger temperature gradient also improves the efficiency of internal combustion engines.

Increased rolling resistance from displacing snow is a far bigger cause of winter driving inefficiency.

[trentgreene]

Hmm, I wonder if the increased resistance is overcome by the fact that ICEs can put out more power with colder denser oxygen rich air.

This is why performance cars sport cold air intakes. This is also why your car won’t hit its quoted 0-60 time in a warmer environment — those tests are normally performed or normalized to cold air conditions + 0% humidity. Just what counts as cold depends on manufacturer / reviewer.

Anecdotally, I track efficiency and drive consistent routes, and don’t notice a diff.

[bumby]

I wonder if the increased resistance is overcome by the fact that ICEs can put out more power with colder denser oxygen rich air.

Not likely, as an increase in air is going to be accompanied by a corresponding increase in fuel. Unless your fuel mapping is all messed up, it will give you more power, but not likely better fuel economy.

[eldaisfish]

this is the textbook definition of confidently incorrect.

Winter fuel efficiency is worse because of a winter fuel mix, not because of air density.

[dgacmu]

And if you don't pump up your tires to compensate, the lower pressure from cold temps will increase your rolling resistance. Not a 40% drop but enough to notice if you're tracking mpg.

[thaumasiotes]

> You're oblivious to it because a motor vehicle has so much available power on tap.

Dropping from 18 mpg to 10 mpg would increase your cost of fuel by 80%. It'd be hard to be oblivious to it.

[Gordonjcp]

> Cold air is denser. Pushing it out of the way saps more energy and drops the effective work done.

That makes absolutely no difference at all.

[sokoloff]

> That makes absolutely no difference at all.

That would be very surprising if it were true, given the very large effect density altitude has on airplane performance (engine and wing).

[simfree]

Here in the Pacific Northwest, driving both last winter in BC and currently in the mix of snow, freezing rain and slush. I'm using the same three peaks rated all season tires as I was using in the summer, and driving the same routes as well.

[marginalia_nu]

In colder climates, it's common to have an engine block heater, which to some extent mitigates this. A significant chunk of the lost "mileage" is from cold starts.

[BenjiWiebe]

Something must be wrong with your vehicle. I've tracked every tank of fuel I've put in either of my vehicles, and the efficiency does drop in the winter, but nowhere near that amount.

I actually just looked at my economy graph, and I can't tell how much winter affects it. The variance is less than the variance of my driving habits. So less than 20%.

[kevin_thibedeau]

Got it. So just make sure your vehicle is constantly consuming energy and you'll never have an issue... unless the power is out for an extended period of time.

[tshaddox]

If the power is out for an extended period of time you’ll find gasoline hard to come by as well.

[EdwardDiego]

Want to see how quickly the petrol supply line breaks down in an emergency? We had severe shortages for a month after an earthquake. People hoarding fuel contributed significantly, at least you can't hoard electricity.

Also, electricity supply isn't prone to supply shocks when Russia invades Ukraine, or the Saudis want to flex their muscles.

[gambiting]

You never started your car and just let it warm up before setting off in winter? How much energy do you think that uses?

[simfree]

Letting the car consume a small amount of constant electricity to keep the battery above freezing is thankfully not very expensive compared to a standard space heater (usually 1.5kW at 720 hours a month, costing $150 a month in Seattle).

Defrosting and toasting the cabin to 92F in freezing conditions usually burns about 1.2kWh to 3kWh while plugged in, but that is just a few tens of cents (or free depending on the charger) to get nearly instantly toasty and ready to drive.

[alphabettsy]

$150/mo just to keep it ready to drive? That doesn’t sound right.

[kevin_thibedeau]

No. That's a waste of a useful resource. It's also illegal in various places.

[simfree]

Driving with an iced over window impairing visibility is illegal in most places, you have to address this with defrosting and perhaps scraping before moving the vehicle.

Idling combustion vehicles is bad, but sometimes it's a necessary evil to ensure visibility so the driver can avoid harming other road users.

[gambiting]

Well, I envy wherever you live then, must be nice in winter!

[skhr0680]

In city driving my ICE gets 6-8km/L in summer and 8-10 in winter. On the highway it gets 10-12 in either season

[midasuni]

18mpg is 21mpg with U.K. gallons. My fairly large Skoda gets 45-50 in the real world, maybe dropping to 42 if I’m pushing it to 85mph on the motorway.

Even back when I owned a mid 80s Nissan around 2000 I was getting 25mpg (us gallon).

Why is US mileage so awful?

[simfree]

Large SUVs with overcooked engines to meet emissions requirements (lower PM2.5 emissions at the cost of slightly worse fuel economy) get bad mileage.

Having all wheel drive or 4 wheel drive, high ground clearance, a poor aerodynamic design (driving 70mph or 80mph sounds bad in many of these cars) also hurts efficiency.

[Scoundreller]

Even when it comes to cars, often the US base model has a larger engine than the EU base model.

No idea why: speed limits are often higher in EU and often with more hills.

[avar]

It's because in addition to fuel being cheaper in the US, many EU countries tax you on engine displacement, CO2 emissions, fuel economy etc.

[SamBam]

18mpg would generally be a pickup truck. You'd be hard-pressed to find a regular sedan that has mileage that bad.

[lelanthran]

> 18Mpg becomes 10Mpg or worse in the winter in my experience.

That sounds like nonsense. What were you driving that had such a reduced mileage?

[jhoechtl]

Yeah additional electric heaters and stiff oil reduce mileage but Nowhere in that range.

Your car must be faulty.

[tshaddox]

But most of those “worries” are things you do upfront when choosing where to live or what car to get. And most of those worries have analogous worries for ICE vehicles if you’re really going to be living or frequently driving in extreme cold temperatures or snowy/icy weather. If you live in the Bay Area you probably can’t just take your ICE vehicle to Tahoe on a whim in the winter. You’ll have to consider for a moment what car you have, what kind of tires are on it, and what the weather and road conditions are. Again, it’s upfront “worrying,” not some constant sense of dread that you can’t eliminate with a bit of upfront consideration.

[jchw]

All things have defined limits; Your gasoline will stop working at like -40 F. And while ICE vehicles have reliable mileage in the winter, they are absolutely prone to issues related to extreme weather. Also, I'm curious where you get the 30 requirements from, since for the most part it's basically just having an outlet installed. Not everyone can do that, sure. Not everyone can ride a bike to work, either. What's the point of this flippant crap?

[Enginerrrd]

Yeah, the biggest thing EV proponents seem to miss is that you don't need to force it to be 100% for everyone. Confine any mandates to urban centers where it makes sense, you can get buy in from everyone and solve 95% of the problem. At that point there will be lower hanging fruits than the last 5% or w/e.

[Dylan16807]

You think it's the proponents that miss that it doesn't need to be 100%? The arguments I see that act like it has to be 100% EVs are basically all anti-EV arguments.

[fwungy]

States are mandating no ICE sales by 2035. That is why people are becoming anti-EV. No one would care about EV policy if it wasnt being forced on an insane schedule.

[Karrot_Kream]

No new car sales, and PHEVs are included which should solve edge cases. That's very different than all cars. Also, most of CA doesn't get cold enough that any of this discussion is relevant.

[tomjakubowski]

PHEVs really seem like the best of both worlds. What's the downside?

[nottorp]

Costs. Complexity. You have a large battery, a gasoline engine with a transmission and 2+ electric engines in a PHEV. And they all need maintenance in the long run.

This will be hopefully mitigated when all PHEVs only run the gas engine as a generator and get rid of the transmission, but I don't think we're there yet.

[NotYourLawyer]

Chargers are a problem for apartments in urban centers though.

[Gigachad]

It’s not a technical problem, it’s just an effort and cost thing. As soon as people start demanding it, the problem will be solved pretty quick.

I’ve seen new developments advertising electric car chargers already.

[nicoburns]

People in apartments must be parking their cars somewhere. You just need to put chargers wherever people are already parking their cars.

[fomine3]

It can't "just" put for mechanical parking system.

[nicoburns]

> mechanical parking system

Are those common? I know they exist, but I thought they were unusual. I've certainly never seen an actual one.

[fomine3]

It's common here in Japan city area, since street parking is not allowed

[Swenrekcah]

I fully agree that not everyone needs to get an EV, there will be edge cases where it won’t be feasible.

Luckily for those people they will have millions of older ICE cars to choose from.

[kalleboo]

Also all the "no more ICE by 2030" mandates I've seen allow plug-in hybrids which solves the biggest complaint people have (range)

[neon_electro]

Do you just assume all EVs lose massive amounts of battery state of charge while unplugged? There's a reason Tesla vehicles lose battery while parked and unplugged; they have cameras and other computer systems continuing to run, sapping power.

On the other hand, I have driven a 2018 Bolt EV for 4 years, 48k miles, and never once had an issue with the car being unplugged and returning to a car with less range than I left it.

[simfree]

Charging EVs is easy and simple if you just plug in when arriving at a location.

Doesn't matter whether it's Level 1 charging at 1.5kW (120v) or Level 2 at 6.8kW, or if it's -11F out, just plug it in and give it time to charge.

Leaving your car unplugged in a frigid environment will cold soak the pack and cause your pack to spend an hour or two worth of energy heating up to temp on Level 1 charging, or 10 to 15 minutes on Level 2 charging. This is normal and you just need to leave the car plugged in.

With an ICE car your heating generally takes minutes to heat up, versus I can have my car ready in a minute or two with just turning on the heat to melt off the quarter inch of ice build up on my windshield and windows.

[Karrot_Kream]

I mean by that metric, it's hard to figure out how to install a dryer in your house too. It's the same circuitry.

[rtkwe]

With the difference that the dryer connections are usually installed when the house is built so there's easy access to run the wires to and from the breaker box. Installing them afterwards is more expensive and complicated to do because of the limited access.

It's also not something you can expect to find anywhere other than at another EV owner's place. Admittedly over time that will become less of an issue but for now it's going to be pretty rare.

[tshaddox]

Right, so you’re only saying that EVs are new, not that they’re more difficult to setup than a dryer.

[rtkwe]

No for existing construction they will be more complex because the walls are all closed in so routing the 220V cable to the outside or garage is more difficult. Electrical is done before the walls are finished for a reason...

Maybe not if you're lucky and the existing dryer connection is already in your garage but it's not going to be that simple for most people. Again dryer connections get installed at build time and have for the last couple decades so most people already have them.

[krater23]

I'm an opponent of EV, but bring a cable from power input to garage is really not a big problem. Done that for many things over the last 20 years, including network cabling for internet access.

[rtkwe]

I'm just saying it's more work not that it's impossible work. Also a high current 240V cable is way more trouble than a CAT cable.

[ReactiveJelly]

Plug-in hybrids are strangely missing from online discussions. Are they too heavy or something?

Cause it seems perfect to me. Run electric day-to-day when the weather affords. Run gas for long trips or bad conditions.

No need for a giant 300 mile battery made with minerals from a developing country. Nor a huge ICE, since you can shrink it to a very narrow power band and rely on the batteries for peak power like take-off.

[piotrkaminski]

I have much the same question -- it seems like PHEVs would be perfect for the next 10 years or so, while we improve batteries and build out charging infrastructure. And yet there are relatively few PHEVs on the market, and most of them have <40 miles of electric range, whereas I think you'd really want something like double that number (especially in the context of this article!).

I'm really curious to see what Mazda will do with the MX-30 next year. It's an dismal failure as a pure EV, but apparently they're planning to add a rotary engine as a pure generator to it (i.e., not driving the wheels). If the car keeps the current version's 100 mile electric range that could be a very interesting combo.

[jhoechtl]

Yeah, strangely people talk as if hybrid id a thing of the past although its the best of both worlds.

[Hamuko]

It's also the worst of both worlds at the same time, since you have the issues of both petrol engines and battery electric cars. Your 50 km of pure electric range drops to like 20 km in the winter, and after that you're driving on your cold-ass petrol engine and lugging around a heavy battery.

I drove my mom's BMW 530e plug-in hybrid to the store and back (5 km in each direction). At the end, I think we had 5 km of range left. Granted, it did handle a grocery run just on battery and the heating system worked well, but that was about all that it had. The NEDC rating for the car is 50 km of electric range.

[smiley1437]

A plug-in hybrid, while eminently practical, has the unenviable position of being perceived as a half-measure

[bboygravity]

True, with an ICE car you only need to worry about things constantly and randomly breaking down or wearing out and the fuel prices bankrupting you.

Disclaimer: I never owned a Tesla and only ever drove ICE.

[8note]

You sound like somebody who's never had to plug your car in at night to make sure that it'll start in the morning.

ICE cars still need electricity to start

[Auracle]

Eh. I’ve found with modern cars they can still start at -30f just fine. At least, mine can.

My first car? I had to constantly give it gas for a while even once it started. People gave me funny looks when I was essentially revving my engine like I was showing off in my ‘88 Grand Marquis at stop signs in the year 2005.

[inferiorhuman]

Eh?

A gasoline powered car will struggle in the cold because:

- the battery used to spin the engine is going to have less capacity in the cold - the engine oil is thicker and requiring more energy to spin the engine - gasoline won't atomize as well when it's being sprayed into a cold environment (this is why your engine runs richer right after a cold start)

A diesel powered car will struggle because:

- the temperature of the engine may be too low to allow ignition - the battery used to spin the engine is going to have less capacity in the cold - the engine oil is thicker and requiring more energy to spin the engine - the devices used to heat the engine (glow plugs or intake heaters) require plenty of electricity - the fuel itself may turn into gel (although I think most places in the US only ever sell #2 diesel year-round) - the engine itself may not stay warm enough to run especially if you're also trying to pull heat out into the cabin

None of that's changed dramatically in the past 40 years although engine management has gotten better.

[Auracle]

I don't disagree, but I can only tell you my experience. My car (a freakin' Camaro that I drive year round) has yet to fail to start, and it's 11 years old at this point too. The radio doesn't work when it's below 10 degrees though, so that's fun.

[bumby]

There’s a reason why many northern areas (esp. Canada) have diesel trucks that come equipped with a plug-in block heater.

[Scoundreller]

There’s often not-very-visible differences between Canadian and US car models, even base models.

Canadian BMWs will all have the “cold weather package”, which for me means heated seats and an H8 battery instead of a smaller H6.

For my mom’s old Corolla, it means a 1.6kw starter instead of the 1.4 in the US models (which became a sorta problem when I bought a refurb at a Canadian parts store…)

[matwood]

I lived in the south and moved to Denver for a period. I had a RWD 4-runner at the time and got stuck in snow. The people I knew in Denver had no idea they even sold non-4wd 4-runners...

I'm guessing only FWD/4WD version of vehicles are also sold in Canada.

[LinuxBender]

My ICE vehicle would like a heated garage. At -10F -23C she gets upset with me. At -25F -31C she tells me where to stick the key. I work around the issue with an oil pan heater and a couple of heat lamps but I do need to build a garage and stop waiting for wood/steel prices to come back down.

As for EV's I am going to wait and see how the UPS trucks manage here. That should be some time in early 2023, hopefully before spring time.

[micromacrofoot]

The majority of the country doesn't live in an area that regularly gets extremely cold and even fewer people drive 100 miles every other day. EVs are always getting better, and they’re already good enough for most people.

I live in an area that does get below freezing, and my car preheats the battery before I unplug it to go somewhere while the cabin warms.

[lelanthran]

> EVs are always getting better, and they’re already good enough for most people.

If they're good enough for only most people, why are they mandating it for everyone?

[kalleboo]

Nobody is mandating EVs for everyone today.

[rad_gruchalski]

„It works on my computer”.

[hristov]

With an ICE car, if you park regularly in very cold weather, your car can fail randomly for an obscure reason and it can take a long time to figure it out or you will need a trip to the mechanic. Or you may need a massive and expensive repair.

Remember that a lot of people have to spend 10-15 minutes warming up their cars before they drive them in cold weather.

I do not want to go into details, better car mechanics than me should, but there is all kind of chaos that can happen if your engine freezes and you try to drive it immediately. And it is much more complex and can be much more expensive. Once you start getting cracks in various things and liquids flowing where they should not be you will wish for the simplicity of just plugging in your EV.

So lets not pretend that driving in the cold is some kind of new problem that EVs introduced.

[alphabettsy]

> Remember that a lot of people have to spend 10-15 minutes warming up their cars before they drive them in cold weather.

People choose to do this. This isn’t required and it’s recommended against in modern vehicles.

> I do not want to go into details, better car mechanics than me should, but there is all kind of chaos that can happen if your engine freezes and you try to drive it immediately.

Engines do not freeze in the conditions common in most of the US, even with winter like we’re currently having. The engine coolant is a mixture of anti-freeze and water.

[Swenrekcah]

> People choose to do this. This isn’t required and it’s recommended against in modern vehicles.

I’m curious about that recommendation, do you know why that is?

[justsomehnguy]

You need N joules to heat up the 300kg of the engine. It doesn't matter if you sit there for 15 minutes freezing your ass with an engine running at 1500rpm (and all other car parts still freezing) or 5 minutes actually driving at 3000rpm - you still spent N joules on heating, difference is the time. And the car heater runs on the engine heat, not on the electricity, so the sooner you would warm the engine the sooner your car interior start to warm and stops seeping the heat from engine.

It's actually more importantly to have enough viscosity in ATF, but again, the sooner you would go the sooner it would warm.

[nottorp]

It's possible you need to idle for 10 minutes just to scrape the ice off your windows though :)

[rad_gruchalski]

You don’t need to idle the car for 10 minutes to scrape the ice off. You can scrape it off with the engine off.

[trentgreene]

Because it’s much more efficient to heat up a modern car by driving it than it is to let it idle.

[lelanthran]

> I’m curious about that recommendation, do you know why that is?

I was always told (since the 90s, anyway) that it's better to drive off slowly with a cold engine and let all the components come up to operating temperature together than to drive off with a hot engine, and cold gearbox, driveshafts, tyres, etc.

I generally let a cold engine (i.e. overnight) idle for maybe 30s before driving off slowly, and it reaches operating temperature in about 5m or less.

[rad_gruchalski]

Because your car engine does not get the right mixture until you start driving.

In a 2022 car I have now even the cabin doesn’t get proper heating from the aircon until it’s driven.

[Gordonjcp]

> your car can fail randomly for an obscure reason

Your electric car can fail randomly for an obscure reason too, and good luck getting anyone at all that can fix it.

> Remember that a lot of people have to spend 10-15 minutes warming up their cars before they drive them in cold weather.

Only because they're idiots. No-one needs to leave a vehicle for 10 minutes to "warm up", even in the coldest of weather. Drive gently until the temperature gauge is a bit off the end stop, and then drive a bit less gently until it's at its proper operating temperature.

Alternatively, start the engine from stone cold and immediately drive off at full throttle taking it up to 70mph before there's even a sniff of warm air from the heater. This is *still* better for it than letting it sit for a long time to "warm up".

[Dylan16807]

> Only because they're idiots.

Even if we ignore the "heard bad advice" versus "idiot" issue, that's still untrue because there are other reasons besides what's best for the machine.

Maybe they aren't in the car, and they're warming it up to be comfortable.

Maybe there is ice on the car they need to melt.

[Gordonjcp]

Use deicing spray to get the ice off the car. If it's too cold for you in the car, then just sack up and get on with it. You're not going to come to any harm being a wee bit cold for a couple of minutes, and the heater will actually start working quicker if you drive. If the weather is as cold as it gets here in Scotland in winter, the car will *never* warm up sitting idling.

[Dylan16807]

So I'm an idiot if I avoid things that are unpleasant but won't harm me? And again, speed doesn't matter if I'm not in the car.

Or I'm an idiot if I would rather idle than pour alcohol on my windshield?

> If the weather is as cold as it gets here in Scotland in winter, the car will never warm up sitting idling.

Okay, then that person is an idiot, but it doesn't extend to the people actually warming up their car.

[olivermarks]

'all kind of chaos that can happen if your engine freezes and you try to drive it immediately.' the coolant in ICE vehicles is called antifreeze, only an idiot would substitute H20 for that in cold weather, or any other time for that matter as it is designed to help protect the interior of the engine.

[krater23]

That are only problems when you live in russia or maybee canada.

[jhoechtl]

I really hope the way EV infrastructure is set up in the US wil not take over to Europe.

I really hope that alternative energy storage like hydrogen make the race.

Present battery technology for cod winter Europe is not practical.

[alwayslikethis]

Much of the interior US has colder winters than most of Europe barring the far north of Scandinavia and Russia.

[EdwardDiego]

> And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly.

Although, if you're filling when it's hot, you're getting slightly less gas than when it's cold.

[thefounder]

>> I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes.

But you don't have a gas station at home, don't you? So you have to worry about gas stations and how far they are. And your car makes you and other people sick(i.e cancer and various diseases due polution)! That's so 2020!

On a more serious note you are comparing the shortcommings of an emerging technology with a mature technology. Saying that the old tech is better makes no sense to me.

[alliao]

ICE cars were built without thinking about efficiency in a way, there were plenty of heat to go around due to the nature of combustion. The EV seem fragile but it is because it's so efficient so anything that affects the efficiency becomes quite noticeable... nothing wrong with being a bit more efficient everywhere we can.

[camgunz]

It sounds like just 1 requirement

[tnel77]

Perhaps warmer states won’t need to worry about the cold and the issues it brings?

[b112]

unless the EV industry pulls a rabbit out of a hat.

It's call h2, and multiple cars on the road (kia, toyota, hyundia) work just fine.

One federal funding/grant program, and refuel stations will abound.

And h2 is every bit as green as electric, for both can be supplied via green methods.

[last_responder]

30 you say? Please list them.