[cwalv]

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all.

Right! And I suspect by 2035, not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave in your kitchen in the mid 90's.

[pmontra]

Not everybody has a garage. Cities are full of parked cars in front of residential buildings. It did park my car in a street when I was living in a city.

By 2035 those streets must be refitted with chargers, one per parking slot and somehow replace the energy distributed as gasoline and diesel with electrical energy. If that doesn't happen people will have to leave their car at a charging station for far more time than what it takes to fill a tank with gas. And that doesn't solve the problem of the energy.

Or having a car will get so expensive that only a few people will afford it and that will solve all those problems, but create others.

[acdha]

Cars should be more expensive to cover their externalities but considering that cars spend 95% of the day parked and most people are not driving hundreds of miles per day, it seems likely that the combination of charging points at parking garages and similar structures, homes, streetlights, etc. is going to reach a level where most people can charge more than they need to. In fact, since solar has such massive daylight spikes we probably should be thinking about what we can do to get people to charge their cars at work instead of overnight.

[Vecr]

If someone actually believes in democracy, they should try to get politicians to agree with the statement "cars should be more expensive to cover their externalities" on the record. In the US, almost every single one would dodge the question or outright disagree. Even the ones not running for re-election don't want to ruin their and their party's reputation.

[Kaibeezy]

Many (surely the majority of) Americans like and/or are dependent on cars. They are happy to be able to vote to shrug that externality off to the overall population.

When the majority of Americans dislike and/or are unhappy with 100° Thanksgiving, beepocalypse, aging out of being able to drive, or whatever else “cars” wreck, then they will start voting to push the externalities off to heavier users.

Eventually, the resulting ghost sprawl of empty suburban neighborhoods will provide enough recyclable building materials to rehome us all nicely in subterranean hive cities. Our eyes will evolve larger to gather the dim light. Our ears will shrink to muffle the incessant hum. Our useless teeth will disappear after a few centuries of microbial food paste consumption. Clothing will become an affectation.

[adrianN]

Someone already pays for the externalities. It's just not (exclusively) those who benefit from causing them.

[acdha]

There’s an entire urbanism movement trying to shift things here, but the focus tends to be on removing the hidden subsidies[1] so costs are more visible and making alternatives better. The entire state of California just made density easier to build, which is really important.

Alternatives are important here since while most Americans drive that doesn’t mean that they love everything about it and won’t consider alternatives. There are a ton of people who would love not to pay thousands of dollars to sit in traffic and make their health worse, but they don’t see a good alternative. The activists getting bike infrastructure, improved buses, and density are giving them that option and climate change is causing a lot of younger people to realize that the timing has to be stepped a lot since even EVs produce more CO2 than any other form of ground transportation.

There’s big generational component here, too. Most drivers aren’t old enough to think of roads without traffic as normal, and economic trends mean that a lot of younger people are faced with even longer commutes in cars, not to mention that transit is more appealing when you have smartphones.

1. In addition ti the obvious one of pollution, housing & retail prices are high due to requirements to provide subsidized parking to drivers. Removing that allows owners to make different decisions.

[toyg]

Believing in democracy as the least-worst way to set public policy has nothing to do with your own priorities.

I personally think urban development should be more expensive to cover its externalities (i.e. forcing people to buy cars because of landowner-enriching sprawl).

Get your politicians to call my politicians.

[baeaz]

Given that practically every family has at least one car, I don't see how this is useful.

[Rebelgecko]

I don't totally agree with the magnitude of how much more work needs to be done- we don't have one gas pump per ICE car, and electric cars don't need to be charged every day.

It's fair to say that people hogging chargers even when they're done charging is a problem, there's a public charger on my street that is near 100% utilization. However this seems pretty solvable- companies can just charge per minute as long as the spot is occupied and let the free market sort it out.

Adding public chargers is also a great way for places like malls, grocery stores, offices, etc to stay relevant, since my weekly shopping trips would probably be enough to keep a car topped off

[ashwagary]

>It's fair to say that people hogging chargers even when they're done charging is a problem, there's a public charger on my street that is near 100% utilization.

Makes sense to charge a penalty every minute a charger is connected but not drawing power (full battery).

[lkiernan]

If you put them in convenient places then ICE cars will also park there and not be connected.

[ashwagary]

ICE cars get parking tickets for taking up those spaces I assume.

[dotancohen]

Does the street already have street lights? If so, then presumably there already is an electrical distribution network running alongside the street. If it was designed with sodium vapor lamps in mind, but has been upgraded to LEDs, then EV charging infrastructure is withing its capabilities.

[jaclaz]

Yes, the line was designed for 250W sodium vapour lamps, you replace them with 60W led lamps AND you use some 20% original overprovision and you can have 250x1.2-60=240W per post.

[wpm]

In a city you’re not likely to be farther than a mile away from a high speed charger. It’s perfectly reasonable for a small city car to “fill up” occasionally to cover the short mileage they’re likely to see between charges anyways.

I don’t have an EV or a car at all, but if I did my charging regimen would be “plug it in at the fast charger at the grocery store and charge it while I shop”. It’s just not a big deal.

We certainly don’t need to make our residential streets more ugly than having a bunch of cars parked on it already does by stringing up charging infrastructure all over it.

[not_me_ever]

In Finland we have 220v outlets at every parking spot, since the batteries of ICEs just die during the -20C winter nights without being hooked up.

We all charge our EVs on those same outlets, and I never heard of anybody not having a full charge the next morning.

The main reason why we have so many EVs here -> they are more reliable in the cold. People stopped freezing to death in their Diesels that got stranded on the roadside.

[devb]

> not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave

What about the millions of people who live in apartments and rowhouses?

[EdwardDiego]

Well, if they're smart, they've built their cities in such a way that cars are only something you hire for your vacation, rest of the time, a bike and/or a train pass is sufficient.

[biggc]

Ah, the Stack Overflow classic “this is a wrong problem to have”

[EdwardDiego]

It's more the circular reasoning that frustrates me - we built our cities for ICE cars, therefore EVs aren't suitable, because we built our cities for ICE cars.

You've got to break that circle at some point.

[dragonwriter]

> What about the millions of people who live in apartments and rowhouses?

If they have cars, they have a place to park them, and this place can host a charger. Outdoor parking without access controls may have security issues, but that's true without a charging point, too.

[Too]

A place where you can’t even park your car outdoors unattended is not a place you want to live in in the first place.

[rconti]

Just got back from the UK. The neighborhood I was in had charge sockets on every 3rd or 4th parking post. You wouldn't even know they were there if not for the tiny little LED.

[bennyelv]

I can confirm as someone who lives in the uk, that is not normal.

There are a significant proportion of residential developments where it wouldn’t even be possible to install such infrastructure due to the legal framework around how the properties are owned and maintained.

Legislative changes are needed here to make this happen, but alas our government has had its mind on “other things” for quite a few years now and doesn’t seem to be doing anything about it.

[RajT88]

In some ways the UK is a view into the future of the US.

But this is not it.

Wealthy neighborhoods in the US are going to get these on the streets eventually. Places where poor folks live don't have the ROI needed to justify it. Wealthier folks tend to be older and have more time on their hands to do things like go complain at city council meetings.

You're going to get these chargers in the richest neighborhoods first (of course), and eventually to the decent middle class neighborhoods. The poorer areas where blue collar workers live (apartment complexes) will get it approximately never - the city won't invest in those areas because fuck them, and the apartment complexes won't invest in them, because fuck them.

https://youtu.be/MqkT4B-9MGk

[dazc]

This isn't representative of the UK as a whole though and, likely, never will be. Providing charging points for middle-class homeowners at the expense of basic infrastructure and countless other spending 'priorities' would be considered political suicide in most high-density locations outside of London.

[josephcsible]

Where do those people park their cars now? Wherever that is, put a charger on a post next to the spot.

[StanislavPetrov]

And where does the electricity come for those chargers? Huge swaths of the USA are experiencing rolling blackouts right now because there isn't enough electrical capacity.

[adrianN]

Try building some generators? Renewable energy is cheap and a perfect match for charging cars, just adjust the charging current to match current generation.

[twarge]

And the car batteries can supply peak demand instead of having a blackout.

[mcbits]

I hope that doesn't mean I plug in my car at 80%, hoping to top it off for a long trip, but since everyone else is averaging 60% and there's peak demand, it decides to drain the battery and generously put a dollar in my account.

[kalleboo]

It would most likely be opt-in, as a form of this is already a thing in some place - you can choose to have the power company reduce the power of your cooling/heating during peaks in demand in return for a discount on your power bill.

[dotancohen]

Rolling blackouts are being experienced because the delta between high day usage and low night usage is too great to invest in upgraded peak-capable infrastructure. Charging vehicles at night will actually _improve_ the situation.

[poulsbohemian]

At least some of those people will continue to rely exclusively on public transportation, the same as they do today. In our urban areas, public transportation + car sharing / rental services make a whole lot more sense than continuing to incentivize everyone to own a car (electric or otherwise)

[mynameisvlad]

I have a charger in my uncovered townhouse spot. It’s really not a big deal. Nowhere near what you and other commenters here are making it out to be.

[jopython]

My HOA woulndn't allow that in our common parking area.

[akmarinov]

2035 US is 2022 Europe, if your garage has power - you have 220v

[nicoburns]

Or indeed 1960s Europe for that matter. I believe most US homes have a ~240v supply, even if they don't have any outlets that allow them to use it.

[bluGill]

in the very early days of utility serice some houses got 110 volt only, but most of them got upgraded to 220 in the 1950s.

[vardump]

I think in Europe other than older buildings, garages have mostly 400V 3 phase. At least in northern parts, probably a lot worse in southern parts.

[hef19898]

Land lines are 400 V 3 phase in Germany, as you need those for the elecrric ovens and that is what utilities deliver. Standard plugs and wiring are 240 V. So every garage would at least have 240 V, if there is a plug, and 400 V can be installed.

[chess_buster]

To be honest, we had 220V in the Garage since I was born about 40 years ago.

[Schnitz]

How many people in the US do really not have 220V in the garage? I bet a lot of homes have either a sub-panel (and thus could add 220V very easily) or a laundry (dryer socket, 220V).

[zainhoda]

My guess is that older homes in the northeast will have an issue not with adding the outlet but upgrading from 100amp to 200amp service. I was quoted $10k for that upgrade. I had to decide between getting an EV and getting a heat pump. Decided on the heat pump, which I’m very happy with — it’s saving me thousands on heating oil.

[mec31]

Can confirm. I have an 1898 house in the Northeast. Just upgraded from 100A service to 200A service for $3900. I didn’t own the house at the time, but I believe it went from 40A to 100A in 1985.

[chrisdhoover]

I dont have 220 in the garage. Of course 220 is coming into the panel but there is no circuit breaker, wiring or outlet. In my experience this is common. 220 is only provided for washers, stoves, and HVAC. Can a 220 outlet be added, certainly, but it is not default.

[jsjohnst]

Washing machines very rarely are 240V in the US, they usually are 120V. It’s electric dryers that are 240V.

[Schnitz]

That's my point though, you can add a 220v socket pretty cheaply given there's a panel.

[nickthegreek]

I think most of us don’t even have garages.

[sokoloff]

I don’t right now in my detached garage (though I buried conduits during recent landscaping to permit me to pull them later). Right now, I have a 120V, 15A circuit out there that powers everything.

Regardless, my cheap LEAF turned 8 just a bit ago and I’ve driven it in New England year-round for 8 years without issue, even with only level 1 charging at home. It’s fine for an around-town daily driver (which is what the LEAF is well-matched to).

[fsckboy]

the 220 circuit to your dryer and the 220 circuit to your electric stove do not have the capacity to add more items to the wiring (the stove is a much higher capacity circuit btw). Yes, it's true that you wouldn't need to use your car charger while you use your appliances, but that's not how residential building code circuits work. I suppose there must be or at least could be a solution to switch the power over? But you can't just go plugging it in and remain within code.

my brother does a lot of stuff with power tools, and whenever he moves he has to have extra lines brought in by the power company. While houses frequently have 220 coming in, they don't have 3-phase.

[bdcravens]

New house built this year. No 220V in the garage (utility room is inside the house - I used to connect my charger there and run it to garage). However, I was able to easily add 220V, even as a first time DIYer.

[doubled112]

I'm in Canada in a house built in 2012. Attached garage - my living room is above it.

The breaker panel is in the garage so it'd be easy to add, but my only 220V devices, the dryer and stove (along with their outlets), are inside the house.

I've never heard of a dryer in the garage before. It isn't heated, and in winter months, it's cold enough that snow doesn't melt. Would that have an effect on drying my clothes?

[bdcravens]

They'd probably still dry, it just may take more energy, depending on your dryer.

Funny enough my internal dryer can cause my clothes to be damp, as the exhaust runs to the attic instead of directly outside, and the moisture can come back into the dryer. (can be overcome by installing an active exhaust fan)

[fsckboy]

you can dry clothing by hanging it on a line outside in winter, the vapor pressure of ice is a positive number. So, yes, your dryer will work in the garage.

[dragonwriter]

> How many people in the US do really not have 220V in the garage?

I only have 220V in an indoor laundry room, not the garage. Adding it would only be a small one-time expense.

[bdcravens]

Probably $500-1000 if you hire an electrician. I did it myself fairly easily (largest cost is the copper wire if it's not a short run; GFCI breaker can also add a little cost if you have to have one - it's code in some states)

[tatersolid]

Many states or municipalities require conduit for >=110V. Some require licensed electricians to perform all work, along with permits and building inspector approvals. Yes, even for pulling a new circuit from an existing panel.

[kzrdude]

I'm curious, is 220V (or 230V) more than twice as fast/twice as good as 110V? The discussion here makes it sound like it. All I know is that you'll need higher amperage with lower voltage, but it can compensate proportionally. I guess heat losses and other problems are significant, if it's a problem at 110V?

[murderfs]

At the same amperage, it's exactly twice as good, but if you're going to get a 220V outlet installed, you're also going to get a higher amperage circuit installed at the same time, so you can charge at 220V/50A instead of 110V/12A, which is 8x faster.

[jaclaz]

But you need also the electric company to be able to deliver that power, roughly 10kW, in addition to all your other electric appliances.

Common contracts - at least here (Italy) - are for 3 or 4.5kW, a few are 6 kW, 10 kW or more are rare, and you probably need to get to 15kW to be able to have those 10kW available for charging.

[xxpor]

Anything less than 48kw is essentially unheard of in new construction in the US, and even old houses with 24kw service are getting upgraded. Less than 24 is considered essentially unsellable.

[jaclaz]

In new constructions, but what about the existing neighbourhoods?

[xxpor]

Same thing. If your house was built after WW2 it will usually have 200a service if you're all electric, and maybe 150 if your heat is non-electric. Most older houses have also been upgraded at this point too. It's not uncommon for larger houses to have 400a (96kw) service.

[extrapickles]

It’s more than twice as losses are lower boosting 220v to the 400v or 800v the pack actually needs.

As an example, a charger in some EVs is 87% efficient when charging from 120v and the same charger is 94% efficient when charging from 240v.

[cesarb]

> All I know is that you'll need higher amperage with lower voltage, but it can compensate proportionally.

This discussion is assuming that the amperage is the same. The common "default" AC socket in the USA is AFAIK the NEMA 5-15, which is a 15A socket; the common "default" AC socket in other countries is AFAIK usually either 16A, 15A, or 10A, so at most you'd have one extra ampere.

Of course, if you're adding a dedicated socket where you'd expect to plug a car (or other high-power devices like a large air conditioner), you'd put a higher-power socket like a 20A one. But this discussion is, as far as I understand, about what you could find on a random garage; I believe it would be unexpected to not have at least one common "default" AC socket on am enclosed garage, but finding a higher-power AC socket would be less likely.

[justinclift]

Any idea how common or feasible it would be in the US to get ~400v 3 phase power to the garage?

Here in Australia it's possible, though not very common. ~400v is useful for some larger sized machinery.

[Too]

I don’t know about US but here in Northern Europe the utility outlets we use for stoves and such are not just higher voltage but also distributed over 3 phases rather than just one. This translates into sqrt(3)=1.7 times more of the cable can be used. For a 3x16A outlet you get 400V x 16A x 1.7 = 10kW.

Compared to a normal 220V 10A outlet where your max is 2kW.

Higher voltage also means you get more power for less current, less heat loss in the cables.

If you have an electric car, the example above should explain why you want to get a proper charger with proper wiring installed. Don’t use the ones which plug straight into a shuko.

[caf]

The battery heater is a fixed overhead, so even at the same amperage (and twice the power), if the weather conditions are such that the heater was taking 80% of the available power on a 15A/110V circuit, it'll only be taking 40% of the available power on a 15A/220V circuit, meaning the charging power is 6 times greater.

[treeman79]

Will power even be a thing?

Rolling power outages in many states last couple of days. Many forms of energy are being retired faster then wind solar are being brought online.

[otabdeveloper4]

By 2035 people won't be driving car-shaped objects, not unless they're professional taxi drivers.

[refurb]

People will still be driving car-shaped objected until 2055.

People wildly overestimate advances. Look at how much has changed in the last 20 years. Not much.

[otabdeveloper4]

Not as personal transportation, though. Too expensive and wasteful.

[oblio]

This is super ridiculous. How do you think this will happen? The buyer of the 2022 Toyota Corolla will just be banned from driving it in 2035? In the US they can't even ban guns, you expect individual driving of owned cars to be banned? :-)))

[otabdeveloper4]

Not banned. The car shape is probably the most inefficient form factor posssible for an electric vehicle, and economic and market forces will do their thing.

[neon_electro]

What will change between now and 2035 that will enable "economic and market forces [to] do their thing" that isn't already true today? Can you explain why the "most inefficient form factor possible" is still the norm today?

[davchana]

Hey, my apartment in Central California doesn't have microwave (although its a good apartment).

[thayne]

In 2035 I will most likely be living in the same home I am now, and putting a 220v outlet in my garage is a lot more expensive than buying a microwave.

[cwalv]

I suspect it will get cheaper, esp for the common case where you don't need to upgrade the service to your home, and there's already a panel/subpanel present. The cost is mostly labor, and in that case it can be installed in a couple hours or less. Also, 30% of the cost is already subsidized as part of the IRA. As EV prices become more competitive, such that having the outlet/charger installed in their garage is an actual burden for the ppl buying EVs, I wouldn't be surprised to see this subsidy increase