[jws]

Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it from gelling but still run adequately to move you along.

Sometimes we forget that we have 100 years of infrastructure behind our internal combustion engines and about 10 behind the electric vehicles.

In the first 10 years of internal combustion engines, you bought benzene at the local apothecary and used that to fuel your car.

Three years of EV in a more or less unheated garage and I'm still just charging off my 15A 120V outlet. It's fine. I plug in every other day or so. But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all.

[cwalv]

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all.

Right! And I suspect by 2035, not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave in your kitchen in the mid 90's.

[pmontra]

Not everybody has a garage. Cities are full of parked cars in front of residential buildings. It did park my car in a street when I was living in a city.

By 2035 those streets must be refitted with chargers, one per parking slot and somehow replace the energy distributed as gasoline and diesel with electrical energy. If that doesn't happen people will have to leave their car at a charging station for far more time than what it takes to fill a tank with gas. And that doesn't solve the problem of the energy.

Or having a car will get so expensive that only a few people will afford it and that will solve all those problems, but create others.

[acdha]

Cars should be more expensive to cover their externalities but considering that cars spend 95% of the day parked and most people are not driving hundreds of miles per day, it seems likely that the combination of charging points at parking garages and similar structures, homes, streetlights, etc. is going to reach a level where most people can charge more than they need to. In fact, since solar has such massive daylight spikes we probably should be thinking about what we can do to get people to charge their cars at work instead of overnight.

[Vecr]

If someone actually believes in democracy, they should try to get politicians to agree with the statement "cars should be more expensive to cover their externalities" on the record. In the US, almost every single one would dodge the question or outright disagree. Even the ones not running for re-election don't want to ruin their and their party's reputation.

[Kaibeezy]

Many (surely the majority of) Americans like and/or are dependent on cars. They are happy to be able to vote to shrug that externality off to the overall population.

When the majority of Americans dislike and/or are unhappy with 100° Thanksgiving, beepocalypse, aging out of being able to drive, or whatever else “cars” wreck, then they will start voting to push the externalities off to heavier users.

Eventually, the resulting ghost sprawl of empty suburban neighborhoods will provide enough recyclable building materials to rehome us all nicely in subterranean hive cities. Our eyes will evolve larger to gather the dim light. Our ears will shrink to muffle the incessant hum. Our useless teeth will disappear after a few centuries of microbial food paste consumption. Clothing will become an affectation.

[adrianN]

Someone already pays for the externalities. It's just not (exclusively) those who benefit from causing them.

[acdha]

There’s an entire urbanism movement trying to shift things here, but the focus tends to be on removing the hidden subsidies[1] so costs are more visible and making alternatives better. The entire state of California just made density easier to build, which is really important.

Alternatives are important here since while most Americans drive that doesn’t mean that they love everything about it and won’t consider alternatives. There are a ton of people who would love not to pay thousands of dollars to sit in traffic and make their health worse, but they don’t see a good alternative. The activists getting bike infrastructure, improved buses, and density are giving them that option and climate change is causing a lot of younger people to realize that the timing has to be stepped a lot since even EVs produce more CO2 than any other form of ground transportation.

There’s big generational component here, too. Most drivers aren’t old enough to think of roads without traffic as normal, and economic trends mean that a lot of younger people are faced with even longer commutes in cars, not to mention that transit is more appealing when you have smartphones.

1. In addition ti the obvious one of pollution, housing & retail prices are high due to requirements to provide subsidized parking to drivers. Removing that allows owners to make different decisions.

[toyg]

Believing in democracy as the least-worst way to set public policy has nothing to do with your own priorities.

I personally think urban development should be more expensive to cover its externalities (i.e. forcing people to buy cars because of landowner-enriching sprawl).

Get your politicians to call my politicians.

[baeaz]

Given that practically every family has at least one car, I don't see how this is useful.

[Rebelgecko]

I don't totally agree with the magnitude of how much more work needs to be done- we don't have one gas pump per ICE car, and electric cars don't need to be charged every day.

It's fair to say that people hogging chargers even when they're done charging is a problem, there's a public charger on my street that is near 100% utilization. However this seems pretty solvable- companies can just charge per minute as long as the spot is occupied and let the free market sort it out.

Adding public chargers is also a great way for places like malls, grocery stores, offices, etc to stay relevant, since my weekly shopping trips would probably be enough to keep a car topped off

[ashwagary]

>It's fair to say that people hogging chargers even when they're done charging is a problem, there's a public charger on my street that is near 100% utilization.

Makes sense to charge a penalty every minute a charger is connected but not drawing power (full battery).

[lkiernan]

If you put them in convenient places then ICE cars will also park there and not be connected.

[ashwagary]

ICE cars get parking tickets for taking up those spaces I assume.

[dotancohen]

Does the street already have street lights? If so, then presumably there already is an electrical distribution network running alongside the street. If it was designed with sodium vapor lamps in mind, but has been upgraded to LEDs, then EV charging infrastructure is withing its capabilities.

[jaclaz]

Yes, the line was designed for 250W sodium vapour lamps, you replace them with 60W led lamps AND you use some 20% original overprovision and you can have 250x1.2-60=240W per post.

[wpm]

In a city you’re not likely to be farther than a mile away from a high speed charger. It’s perfectly reasonable for a small city car to “fill up” occasionally to cover the short mileage they’re likely to see between charges anyways.

I don’t have an EV or a car at all, but if I did my charging regimen would be “plug it in at the fast charger at the grocery store and charge it while I shop”. It’s just not a big deal.

We certainly don’t need to make our residential streets more ugly than having a bunch of cars parked on it already does by stringing up charging infrastructure all over it.

[not_me_ever]

In Finland we have 220v outlets at every parking spot, since the batteries of ICEs just die during the -20C winter nights without being hooked up.

We all charge our EVs on those same outlets, and I never heard of anybody not having a full charge the next morning.

The main reason why we have so many EVs here -> they are more reliable in the cold. People stopped freezing to death in their Diesels that got stranded on the roadside.

[devb]

> not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave

What about the millions of people who live in apartments and rowhouses?

[EdwardDiego]

Well, if they're smart, they've built their cities in such a way that cars are only something you hire for your vacation, rest of the time, a bike and/or a train pass is sufficient.

[biggc]

Ah, the Stack Overflow classic “this is a wrong problem to have”

[EdwardDiego]

It's more the circular reasoning that frustrates me - we built our cities for ICE cars, therefore EVs aren't suitable, because we built our cities for ICE cars.

You've got to break that circle at some point.

[dragonwriter]

> What about the millions of people who live in apartments and rowhouses?

If they have cars, they have a place to park them, and this place can host a charger. Outdoor parking without access controls may have security issues, but that's true without a charging point, too.

[Too]

A place where you can’t even park your car outdoors unattended is not a place you want to live in in the first place.

[rconti]

Just got back from the UK. The neighborhood I was in had charge sockets on every 3rd or 4th parking post. You wouldn't even know they were there if not for the tiny little LED.

[bennyelv]

I can confirm as someone who lives in the uk, that is not normal.

There are a significant proportion of residential developments where it wouldn’t even be possible to install such infrastructure due to the legal framework around how the properties are owned and maintained.

Legislative changes are needed here to make this happen, but alas our government has had its mind on “other things” for quite a few years now and doesn’t seem to be doing anything about it.

[RajT88]

In some ways the UK is a view into the future of the US.

But this is not it.

Wealthy neighborhoods in the US are going to get these on the streets eventually. Places where poor folks live don't have the ROI needed to justify it. Wealthier folks tend to be older and have more time on their hands to do things like go complain at city council meetings.

You're going to get these chargers in the richest neighborhoods first (of course), and eventually to the decent middle class neighborhoods. The poorer areas where blue collar workers live (apartment complexes) will get it approximately never - the city won't invest in those areas because fuck them, and the apartment complexes won't invest in them, because fuck them.

https://youtu.be/MqkT4B-9MGk

[dazc]

This isn't representative of the UK as a whole though and, likely, never will be. Providing charging points for middle-class homeowners at the expense of basic infrastructure and countless other spending 'priorities' would be considered political suicide in most high-density locations outside of London.

[josephcsible]

Where do those people park their cars now? Wherever that is, put a charger on a post next to the spot.

[StanislavPetrov]

And where does the electricity come for those chargers? Huge swaths of the USA are experiencing rolling blackouts right now because there isn't enough electrical capacity.

[adrianN]

Try building some generators? Renewable energy is cheap and a perfect match for charging cars, just adjust the charging current to match current generation.

[twarge]

And the car batteries can supply peak demand instead of having a blackout.

[mcbits]

I hope that doesn't mean I plug in my car at 80%, hoping to top it off for a long trip, but since everyone else is averaging 60% and there's peak demand, it decides to drain the battery and generously put a dollar in my account.

[dotancohen]

Rolling blackouts are being experienced because the delta between high day usage and low night usage is too great to invest in upgraded peak-capable infrastructure. Charging vehicles at night will actually _improve_ the situation.

[poulsbohemian]

At least some of those people will continue to rely exclusively on public transportation, the same as they do today. In our urban areas, public transportation + car sharing / rental services make a whole lot more sense than continuing to incentivize everyone to own a car (electric or otherwise)

[mynameisvlad]

I have a charger in my uncovered townhouse spot. It’s really not a big deal. Nowhere near what you and other commenters here are making it out to be.

[jopython]

My HOA woulndn't allow that in our common parking area.

[akmarinov]

2035 US is 2022 Europe, if your garage has power - you have 220v

[nicoburns]

Or indeed 1960s Europe for that matter. I believe most US homes have a ~240v supply, even if they don't have any outlets that allow them to use it.

[bluGill]

in the very early days of utility serice some houses got 110 volt only, but most of them got upgraded to 220 in the 1950s.

[vardump]

I think in Europe other than older buildings, garages have mostly 400V 3 phase. At least in northern parts, probably a lot worse in southern parts.

[hef19898]

Land lines are 400 V 3 phase in Germany, as you need those for the elecrric ovens and that is what utilities deliver. Standard plugs and wiring are 240 V. So every garage would at least have 240 V, if there is a plug, and 400 V can be installed.

[chess_buster]

To be honest, we had 220V in the Garage since I was born about 40 years ago.

[Schnitz]

How many people in the US do really not have 220V in the garage? I bet a lot of homes have either a sub-panel (and thus could add 220V very easily) or a laundry (dryer socket, 220V).

[zainhoda]

My guess is that older homes in the northeast will have an issue not with adding the outlet but upgrading from 100amp to 200amp service. I was quoted $10k for that upgrade. I had to decide between getting an EV and getting a heat pump. Decided on the heat pump, which I’m very happy with — it’s saving me thousands on heating oil.

[mec31]

Can confirm. I have an 1898 house in the Northeast. Just upgraded from 100A service to 200A service for $3900. I didn’t own the house at the time, but I believe it went from 40A to 100A in 1985.

[chrisdhoover]

I dont have 220 in the garage. Of course 220 is coming into the panel but there is no circuit breaker, wiring or outlet. In my experience this is common. 220 is only provided for washers, stoves, and HVAC. Can a 220 outlet be added, certainly, but it is not default.

[jsjohnst]

Washing machines very rarely are 240V in the US, they usually are 120V. It’s electric dryers that are 240V.

[Schnitz]

That's my point though, you can add a 220v socket pretty cheaply given there's a panel.

[nickthegreek]

I think most of us don’t even have garages.

[sokoloff]

I don’t right now in my detached garage (though I buried conduits during recent landscaping to permit me to pull them later). Right now, I have a 120V, 15A circuit out there that powers everything.

Regardless, my cheap LEAF turned 8 just a bit ago and I’ve driven it in New England year-round for 8 years without issue, even with only level 1 charging at home. It’s fine for an around-town daily driver (which is what the LEAF is well-matched to).

[fsckboy]

the 220 circuit to your dryer and the 220 circuit to your electric stove do not have the capacity to add more items to the wiring (the stove is a much higher capacity circuit btw). Yes, it's true that you wouldn't need to use your car charger while you use your appliances, but that's not how residential building code circuits work. I suppose there must be or at least could be a solution to switch the power over? But you can't just go plugging it in and remain within code.

my brother does a lot of stuff with power tools, and whenever he moves he has to have extra lines brought in by the power company. While houses frequently have 220 coming in, they don't have 3-phase.

[bdcravens]

New house built this year. No 220V in the garage (utility room is inside the house - I used to connect my charger there and run it to garage). However, I was able to easily add 220V, even as a first time DIYer.

[doubled112]

I'm in Canada in a house built in 2012. Attached garage - my living room is above it.

The breaker panel is in the garage so it'd be easy to add, but my only 220V devices, the dryer and stove (along with their outlets), are inside the house.

I've never heard of a dryer in the garage before. It isn't heated, and in winter months, it's cold enough that snow doesn't melt. Would that have an effect on drying my clothes?

[bdcravens]

They'd probably still dry, it just may take more energy, depending on your dryer.

Funny enough my internal dryer can cause my clothes to be damp, as the exhaust runs to the attic instead of directly outside, and the moisture can come back into the dryer. (can be overcome by installing an active exhaust fan)

[fsckboy]

you can dry clothing by hanging it on a line outside in winter, the vapor pressure of ice is a positive number. So, yes, your dryer will work in the garage.

[dragonwriter]

> How many people in the US do really not have 220V in the garage?

I only have 220V in an indoor laundry room, not the garage. Adding it would only be a small one-time expense.

[bdcravens]

Probably $500-1000 if you hire an electrician. I did it myself fairly easily (largest cost is the copper wire if it's not a short run; GFCI breaker can also add a little cost if you have to have one - it's code in some states)

[tatersolid]

Many states or municipalities require conduit for >=110V. Some require licensed electricians to perform all work, along with permits and building inspector approvals. Yes, even for pulling a new circuit from an existing panel.

[kzrdude]

I'm curious, is 220V (or 230V) more than twice as fast/twice as good as 110V? The discussion here makes it sound like it. All I know is that you'll need higher amperage with lower voltage, but it can compensate proportionally. I guess heat losses and other problems are significant, if it's a problem at 110V?

[murderfs]

At the same amperage, it's exactly twice as good, but if you're going to get a 220V outlet installed, you're also going to get a higher amperage circuit installed at the same time, so you can charge at 220V/50A instead of 110V/12A, which is 8x faster.

[jaclaz]

But you need also the electric company to be able to deliver that power, roughly 10kW, in addition to all your other electric appliances.

Common contracts - at least here (Italy) - are for 3 or 4.5kW, a few are 6 kW, 10 kW or more are rare, and you probably need to get to 15kW to be able to have those 10kW available for charging.

[xxpor]

Anything less than 48kw is essentially unheard of in new construction in the US, and even old houses with 24kw service are getting upgraded. Less than 24 is considered essentially unsellable.

[jaclaz]

In new constructions, but what about the existing neighbourhoods?

[extrapickles]

It’s more than twice as losses are lower boosting 220v to the 400v or 800v the pack actually needs.

As an example, a charger in some EVs is 87% efficient when charging from 120v and the same charger is 94% efficient when charging from 240v.

[cesarb]

> All I know is that you'll need higher amperage with lower voltage, but it can compensate proportionally.

This discussion is assuming that the amperage is the same. The common "default" AC socket in the USA is AFAIK the NEMA 5-15, which is a 15A socket; the common "default" AC socket in other countries is AFAIK usually either 16A, 15A, or 10A, so at most you'd have one extra ampere.

Of course, if you're adding a dedicated socket where you'd expect to plug a car (or other high-power devices like a large air conditioner), you'd put a higher-power socket like a 20A one. But this discussion is, as far as I understand, about what you could find on a random garage; I believe it would be unexpected to not have at least one common "default" AC socket on am enclosed garage, but finding a higher-power AC socket would be less likely.

[justinclift]

Any idea how common or feasible it would be in the US to get ~400v 3 phase power to the garage?

Here in Australia it's possible, though not very common. ~400v is useful for some larger sized machinery.

[Too]

I don’t know about US but here in Northern Europe the utility outlets we use for stoves and such are not just higher voltage but also distributed over 3 phases rather than just one. This translates into sqrt(3)=1.7 times more of the cable can be used. For a 3x16A outlet you get 400V x 16A x 1.7 = 10kW.

Compared to a normal 220V 10A outlet where your max is 2kW.

Higher voltage also means you get more power for less current, less heat loss in the cables.

If you have an electric car, the example above should explain why you want to get a proper charger with proper wiring installed. Don’t use the ones which plug straight into a shuko.

[caf]

The battery heater is a fixed overhead, so even at the same amperage (and twice the power), if the weather conditions are such that the heater was taking 80% of the available power on a 15A/110V circuit, it'll only be taking 40% of the available power on a 15A/220V circuit, meaning the charging power is 6 times greater.

[treeman79]

Will power even be a thing?

Rolling power outages in many states last couple of days. Many forms of energy are being retired faster then wind solar are being brought online.

[otabdeveloper4]

By 2035 people won't be driving car-shaped objects, not unless they're professional taxi drivers.

[refurb]

People will still be driving car-shaped objected until 2055.

People wildly overestimate advances. Look at how much has changed in the last 20 years. Not much.

[otabdeveloper4]

Not as personal transportation, though. Too expensive and wasteful.

[oblio]

This is super ridiculous. How do you think this will happen? The buyer of the 2022 Toyota Corolla will just be banned from driving it in 2035? In the US they can't even ban guns, you expect individual driving of owned cars to be banned? :-)))

[otabdeveloper4]

Not banned. The car shape is probably the most inefficient form factor posssible for an electric vehicle, and economic and market forces will do their thing.

[neon_electro]

What will change between now and 2035 that will enable "economic and market forces [to] do their thing" that isn't already true today? Can you explain why the "most inefficient form factor possible" is still the norm today?

[davchana]

Hey, my apartment in Central California doesn't have microwave (although its a good apartment).

[thayne]

In 2035 I will most likely be living in the same home I am now, and putting a 220v outlet in my garage is a lot more expensive than buying a microwave.

[cwalv]

I suspect it will get cheaper, esp for the common case where you don't need to upgrade the service to your home, and there's already a panel/subpanel present. The cost is mostly labor, and in that case it can be installed in a couple hours or less. Also, 30% of the cost is already subsidized as part of the IRA. As EV prices become more competitive, such that having the outlet/charger installed in their garage is an actual burden for the ppl buying EVs, I wouldn't be surprised to see this subsidy increase

[msrenee]

And then you're replacing the fuel filters when it's below 0 F out because they got destroyed by the gelled diesel. And then you learn your lesson and keep a bottle of Power Service on hand if it's going to get cold and it's never a problem again.

It's literally as easy as having the right fuel additives on hand before it gets too cold. It's not even an infrastructure problem.

I will say that you left out the most fun part of a good winter driving a diesel, which is when you can't fill up even at a station with diesel on account of the fuel gelled in the pump hose. Luckily the gas station on the way home from work is a truck stop and the pumps for the tractor-trailers were still working.

On a related note, it's not unusual for us to lose power here for a couple hours to a couple days at a time either in the worst of winter, or during summer storm season. What do you do with an electric car when the electricity is out in the neighborhood?

[hef19898]

There is no winter diesel in the US?

[msrenee]

That's with winter blend.

[isityouyesitsme]

OK, 10 years behind EV. It makes sense that it is where it is. Please point out anywhere where anyone says the accomplishments are not remarkable on their own, if you are not comparing them to the thing with 100 years infra behind it.

Now compare that to the seemingly endless number of evangelists who think that 10 years from now is a good time to impose a mandate to kill all new ICE vehicle manufacturing, in spite of EV tech being only 80 years (or 30 years of "modern tech hard push") behind ICE infra.

This is how every conversation about EV goes.

Person A: "look how awesome EV is!"

Person B: "yeah, but it won't work for me based on where I live and the needs I have from a car. It seems foolish to push a mandate for a technology that can't be proven to work how the vast majority of people need it to work."

Person A: "you are being unfair in your comparison!" or "no, you are only imagining those problems!"

[adrianN]

We should kill all EV manufacturing five years ago. Spend the effort instead on building charging infrastructure, bike lanes, and public transport. Used cars are good for another fifteen years or so to cover edge cases where EV adoption is slower, giving us ample time to figure out solutions that don't drive mass extinction.

[quonn]

Bike lanes won‘t change a thing. Those who don‘t bike will mostly not be convinced by a lane. I know this, being born in a rather rural area with plenty of bike lanes. I‘m in favor of building them, but would take any bet that by itself that won‘t make a big difference.

Public transport will also have to be EV based. Trains won‘t cut it in most areas outside cities.

And besides - what you‘re saying is insanely risky. You want to keep going with ICEs for 15 years? This would just push back the necessary transition another decade. We would loose the time we desperately need to make the necessary changes.

[aliswe]

It's not a communist state

[adrianN]

Where did I ask for putting the means of production into the hands of the workers?

[bdlowery]

You will still be able to buy and drive ICE cars. What’s the problem?

[EdwardDiego]

Where does Person B live? In a hut in Siberia?

[isityouyesitsme]

C'mon, you have to purposefully be this obtuse. There's no other way it can happen.

Literally any location in the northern US, especially the more rural and more dense urban, and doubly true if you make under 30k per household person and don't already have a circuit in your garage for an electric oven or electric clothes dryer. I suspect the same is true for other locations in the world.

[defrost]

> I suspect the same is true for other locations in the world.

Well, FWiW the Australian (and New Zealand) standard across the entire country is 240v with (most) internal circuits rated for 10 A .. but a call to an electrician gets you a { 15 | 20 | 25 | 32 } amp circuit pulled from the household breaker box (if high amp circuits weren't added at build time) [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS/NZS_3112

In other EV news an Australian state (South Australia) had a net 104.1 per cent wind and solar over seven days (ie produced more renewable energy than total energy used and exported the excess) [2], and in my state "Renewables reach 84 pct share of world’s biggest isolated grid" [3]

[2] https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australias-incredible-week...

[3] https://reneweconomy.com.au/epic-stuff-renewables-reach-84-p...

So, uhh, we have the infrastructure to charge EV's in isolated rural parts of the country and have had for decades .. increased generation is an issue but we have plans to significantly increase global green hydrogen production and export excess over local demand.

[isityouyesitsme]

Right, so because your state and country is ahead in this area, everyone else is "a hut in Siberia?"

My comment specifically mentioned a 2030 or 2035 mandate, which is a US mandate. Why would you argue against a US mandate by talking about Australia? You're not doing the EV group any favors by ignoring the problems people describe that prevent them from buying one, and there is currently no US legislation to enable a mandate in the timeframe it would be required.

[wiretap]

This is also a mandate in Canada for 2035, and I feel like you are being unfair and a little bit snarky to the other commenter (who didn't make the comment about Siberia).

This is actually a larger problem in Canada than the US, and most of the political and policy discussion is in favour of this change.

[defrost]

> because your state and country is ahead in this area, everyone else is "a hut in Siberia?"

No. How did arrive at that conclusion? Did you misread the user names and assume I made that comment?

> Why would you argue against a US mandate by talking about Australia?

You made a statement about other places in the world which was false, I gave an example of why it was false. You are now better informed, you're welcome.

[kalleboo]

> and don't already have a circuit in your garage for an electric oven or electric clothes dryer. I suspect the same is true for other locations in the world

Only North/Central America and Japan uses ~100V systems. The rest of the planet uses ~200V systems where more wattage in your outlets is standard.

[cesarb]

> Only North/Central America and Japan uses ~100V systems. The rest of the planet uses ~200V systems

Brazil (which is in South America) has many cities using 110V/115V/120V/127V (you can see at https://antigo.aneel.gov.br/tensoes-nominais which voltages are used for a given city). Note that a single city can have both ~110V and ~220V, and sometimes both can be found in the same building, or even in the same room.

[EdwardDiego]

Yep,but I'm assuming that nearly everyone in the Northern US is on the grid. And yep, economic concerns dominate, I get that.

This is where I'd hope a government looking to encourage EVs would step in and help, if they're trying to make things happen before 2035.

E.g., in my area, the regional council has a scheme where home owners can get a very low interest (or even no interest) loan to install good insulation, and you can also get another one to install a heat-pump.

They're run through banks, but backed by the regional (and maybe central?) government.

But, doing something like this will, initially, only subsidise the people who can already afford to buy an electric vehicle.

TL;DR - it used to be that you couldn't refuel your car unless the servants brought more on horses, as the only service stations focused on oats. But we invested in infrastructure.

[msrenee]

In a little under half the US. We get at least a couple days a year where the wind-chill brings the temp below -40F with a thermometer temp of -5 or less as a high for the day. My gas car hasn't been happy about starting the last week. Two years ago, I was working 2nd shift and only had the diesel truck. Got to work fine, got off at 2 PM and even with winter blend and a bottle of Heat in the tank, the fuel gelled and tore up the fuel filters.

This is not an artic circle problem. This is a problem that affects way more of the world than you seem to realize. Sorry that we don't all live in mild climates.

[EdwardDiego]

> where the wind-chill brings the temp below -40F

I'm unsure why wind-chill is relevant to a car being charged in a garage?

> This is a problem that affects way more of the world than you seem to realize.

The original commenter was stating that EVs were entirely unsuitable for a hypothetical person.

The only way that it I can envisage it being entirely unsuitable is if they had no access to grid electricity.

My comment about a hut in Siberia is based on that.

Yes, some Americans might need to upgrade certain circuits, but that's not an blocker, it's just an implementation detail.

I'm very well aware of how cold it can get in the USA, but that doesn't prevent EV use, it just requires investment in infrastructure, and that's an investment I'd hope a smart government would subsidise if it's serious about reducing emissions.

[msrenee]

Everyone doesn't have a garage. If your infrastructure has the chargers on the street, we're back to the original issue where they don't charge well in the cold.

[StanislavPetrov]

Half of the United States feels like a hut in Siberia right now due to freezing temperatures and the lack of electrical capacity.

https://www.fox29.com/news/pennsylvania-warned-of-rolling-bl...

[Hamuko]

>But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all.

Filling up the car is the least painful part of driving in the winter. You park up next to a fuel pump with the heated seats slow-roasting your ass (and the car is probably warm by the time you reach a station), you get out of the car for about 4 minutes, and then you go back in the car to continue the slow roast.

[jiggawatts]

I heard stories about Russians in the red army setting a pan of fuel on fire under the engine block of their trucks to warm them up sufficiently to turn over and start.

Apparently some truck models over there have a built-in metal tray for this purpose.

[lb1lf]

I had a Lada Niva 4WD back in the day; part of the winterization package was an extremely heavy sump.

If you perused the manual, you found out why - it suggested you light a small fire under it to serve as an outback engine heater.

The Niva was, uh, an interesting car to own, but was amazing whenever conditions turned to shite. Nothing short of an anti tank mine would stop it.

[bruce511]

A long time ago, in a land far far away, I drop a fire engine. Big monster, 37 tons, with a giant v16 Rolls Royce diesel moter.

It didn't like starting in the cold, and it didn't have battery enough to crank it for long. And failure-to-start was, um, not good.

The solution was a built-in electric heater and charger. Basically it was permanently plugged in so the battery was 100%,and the engine block was "not freezing cold" (I wouldn't go as far as "warm").

Had a push button start that fired up instantly, at the cost of an extra 3 seconds unplugging it it an emergency.

My point I guess is that you don't really have to heat the garage, you just need to warm the battery up a little.

[NegativeLatency]

Crews did that while building the Alaska Canada highway too

[fsckboy]

you can buy heaters that you stick into your engine where the dipstick goes for checking the oil. plug em in overnight. I'm not sure at what temperature you would also need to heat the battery; maybe the residual heat is generally enough, but the warmed engine will crank a lot easier so less strain on the battery that way.

[EdwardDiego]

IIRC, that was about heating the oil.

[pard68]

Is that something that actually happens to diesel engines? I have multiple diesels and while they are difficult to _start_ in the cold they are fine once started for me. But yes, cold enough and combustion engines are hard to get going. My Subaru hates cold days, it'll go a few seconds on a below freezing day before ignition. My diesel tractors actually have electric plugs to keep the manifold hot.

[BenjiWiebe]

The reason diesel doesn't usually gel is that, starting in the fall, fuel stations/refineries start adding anti-gelling agents to the diesel.

If you have "summer diesel" in your tractor during a cold spell, it will gel. And a block heater won't help, since the fuel gels in the fuel lines and tank too. And trying to start the engine pulls in that gel into the fuel filter and sort of strains the chunks out, causing your fuel filter to need to be replaced even once it's warmed up.

I'm not sure at exactly what temperature it happens, but a Kansas winter will typically gel summer diesel at least a couple of times.

[rlkf]

Mostly it's the start battery that have problems in the cold. The diesel sold in Norway have anti-gelling substances added; cars run fine in -20 degC/-4 degF.

[pard68]

I live in the southern USA. So it makes sense that I have never heard of this. We had a -6°F night the other night but usually it'll freeze at night and be back above freezing by noon.

[maxerickson]

It's likely that the stations around you switch to a winter mix.

[bluGill]

diesel starts gelling at warmer than water freezes.

[bluGill]

number 2 diesel fuel will turn to jelly at a bit over 40f. That is warmer than water freezes. Number 1 diesel will be fine to well below zero, and you can mix them to get different gel points. There are also anti gel additives you can add to prevent gelling. Number 2 diesel has significantly more energy than number 1, and is also cheaper, so you want to run number 2 if possible.

[stephencanon]

Not anymore, at least in milder “extreme cold”. We live in northern New Hampshire, and never have an issue with our 328d wagon parked outside in -25F. It has a heater for the fuel line, and they add anti-gelling agents to diesel in winter.

[tim333]

It is an can be a pain for non diesel drivers if large trucks grind to a halt and block the motorway. That's happened in the UK in unusual cold spells.

[pard68]

Yes that'd be quite a problem. Our cold lasts so little here that I've never had a need to start any of my tractors in the freezing, just wait a day and it's back to warm.

[krater23]

>Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely.

I don't know where you live, but here in Germany my diesel car had no big problems with -19°C around 10 years ago. Biggest problem was heating the interior that the windows remain ice free during driving. I want to see your new electric car driving in this circumstances the 100km I had to drive.

And please note, 2035 means 13 years in the future. I don't doubt that the infrastructure for electric cars can work in 100 years...but what's with 13?

[jws]

my diesel car had no big problems with -19°C

It depends on the formulation of your diesel. If you had a tank of "summer diesel" it would be gel at that temperature. Generally the supply chain starts changing the formulation as the weather gets colder and everything is good until you get to arctic temperatures. But if you fill up at a station that doesn't sell a lot of diesel and they still have summer diesel and its an early cold spell, or you are driving a vehicle you don't fill often, you can be in trouble. There are also additives you can add on your own if you know you have summer diesel.

[Renevith]

Just yesterday I drove 75km in -22C, parked outside all day, then back home the same distance in -19C. Took my Model Y from 80% to 12%. No problem with heat either (that's part of why it used so much charge). I was a lot more worried about sliding off the road than running out of battery...

I believe you that it's no problem for a diesel. But it's no problem for electric either.

[jhoechtl]

What if you wouldn't make it home and have a night outside? Two times 75km and down to 12% charge is not inspiring confidence in such situations!

[Renevith]

When I left for the second drive, the car's navigation app estimated I'd have 13% left when I arrived, and the estimates have been impressively good so I just went for it.

But I also was in a good sized metro area with a couple Tesla superchargers not far off my route, so my backup plan was to stop at one for 15 minutes if it ever looked like I might not make it.

[michpoch]

What would have happened if there is a road closure and you need to drive extra 20kms? Or a traffic jam that would make you wait one hour?

[einarfd]

20km is less than what he has left of charge. If the detour is earlier in the drive. He could have gone to a supercharger. If he gets stuck in a jam for hours, it makes no difference. The car hardly uses any power when standing still, it will heat the cabin but other than that it uses no power. I've tried this myself, I once got stuck in double digit cold for around an hour in a model 3 outside Hamar. It made no difference to my range.

[rad_gruchalski]

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all.

You have a garage. Those who don’t have a garage freeze their asses off in howling winds every second day while plugging the car into an outdoor charger.

[alphabettsy]

Diesel passenger cars aren’t popular in the US, certainly not in the segments that compete with EVs.

You’re right but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s not the right time for people in certain areas or with certain lifestyles to have an EV.

[estebank]

Why is it that when it comes to transportation the discussion is always talking past each other?

"Trucks don't belong in cities for personal transportation."

"I need a truck for my farm."

"Vehicle transportation is a huge chunk of global warming contributing fuel consumption, so we need to reduce car usage in cities towards more and better public transport, and EVs when possible."

"I don't live in a city and the bus only comes twice every day and I have to drive 30 miles to work."

These are not mutually exclusive statements!

EVs aren't great for long distance transportation. Particularly ill suited for long haul trucking in winter. But that's not what most people do. Most vehicles drive short distances in fair weather. Many American families have more than one car. That second car doesn't need to be able to drive cross country in the winter. I don't complain that my sneakers are not snow shoes so they are useless to me and anyone else. No one is talking about making ICE vehicles illegal. At most there might be restrictions on usage in cities, no different to how some european cities keep private cars outside of historical city centers.

[jhoechtl]

> No one is talking about making ICE vehicles illegal.

Certainly in Europe. Not directly but via a back door:

Must not enter the city center in a diesel car

No new ICE cars after 2035

[hef19898]

Which doesn't make them illegal to own, just impossible to register new ones. And that's ok, especially since all major car makers are in on it.

Diesel cars are an issue due to dust emissions. Most modern, read Euro 6 temp, and above, engines should be more or less fine. How the latter will be controlled and enforced so, excluding older cars from certain places, is trickey.

I have to point out so, this will be a social issue. Well off people will most switch to EVs, one of the reasons I guess why VW and others are diverting marketing budgets from EVs (read Diesel) to EVs. Those that cannot afford EVs will face issues, since it either used petrol cars, with higher consumption, or used diesels, with issues going to some places due to emissions.

[jakear]

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all.

Sounds like it's time for you to vote for the prohibition of self-service gas stations!