[haxorito]

That issue isn’t only with Airbnb. Many other tech companies have poor customer service and more than willing to just ban you rather than deal with issues. Had incident with Uber. Driver came 30 mins late, she accepted ride, forgot to turn off her location and went to coffee shop. When she arrived, I didn’t say anything. She was rude entire ride complaining about other customers, traffic. I remained quiet. She quickly found out, pretty easy to hear from my accent, that I’m an immigrant. She started to complain about immigrants, immigration system and other nonsense like they took our jobs and how the one, back than candidate, would fix it all.

I left her one star review and very small tip.

Next day I got message that my account suspended. It took me entire day but eventually I found out that she wrote complaint to company that my wife and I physically assaulted her during ride. And based on her word alone it was enough to permanently ban me

[ryan-c]

A bunch of confused Europeans here. In the US...

No tip says "I am an asshole"

Very small tip says "You are an asshole/incompetent"

It is a deliberate insult.

[sokoloff]

Exactly. I didn’t forget; I’m not unaware; I’m making a statement.

[Handytinge]

For the record, 95% (literally) of the world are not Americans. If someone isn't an American, that doesn't make us European ;).

[sixstringtheory]

Unless they tipped $0.01, I'm going to say it was too much, and even then. 5 stars and no tip is maybe unaware/forgetful. 0 or 1 star and no tip is a clear message.

And who cares if an asshole thinks you're an asshole? If someone is a complete asshole to you for no good reason, don't reward them. This is giving them way too much space to live inside your head. It smacks of a guilty conscience on the part of the victim when it should be the other way around. But in the absence of that, the least you can do is spend your money on people who will do better with it.

There are many shades between someone who is grumpy, having a bad day, in the weeds, maybe doesn't smile but still brings your food and gets the job done well (I've been this person), vs someone that directly insults you while bringing it cold after clearly ignoring you for a prolonged period (I've had this happen to me–guess what? No tip for you!).

I look at the converse situation the same way. I get pissed when places bend over backwards to accommodate customers who clearly are assholes and exploit the fact that corporates will hand out gift cards, regardless of the absurdity of the complaint or the inappropriateness of their behavior. Why would you invite someone like that back?

Signed, waiter in America for 7 years. I was stiffed twice in that time, once by an entire family that skipped the entire bill, the other by a rowdy table I had to cut off from alcohol who then threatened to shoot me after my shift. Once or twice I had some foreign tourists tip me like 4%. Even then, I averaged maybe 19% tips over the entire tenure. Everywhere from dives to white linen tables with 4 different glasses and forks; chains and indie. Never more than $2.13/hr salary.

I've never heard what parent poster said. But now that I have, I must say that I didn't think the foreign tourists thought I was an asshole or incompetent, as everything went swimmingly between us, and I also didn't think they were assholes. I worked with a ton of people who complained plenty about that kind of thing, profiled people, etc. I still wonder to this day whether the family that skipped had some sort of emergency to tend to. It sucked at the time, I wound up having to pay it out of pocket, but in the end I made bank overall. C'est la vie.

That's all to say, the world isn't so black and white, learn how to spot outliers on either side of the average, and reward the good and disincentivize the bad as best as you can. And don't get too caught up in what you think assholes' opinions of you might be.

[shultays]

> I left her one star review and very small tip.

I don't understand such (American?) tipping system

[digianarchist]

Canada has adopted this ridiculousness even though food servers now earn minimum wage in Ontario.

[zo1]

Almost all states in the US have minimum wage for tipped service workers, too.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped

Of course, very convenient to state that they don't, or that the "owner" doesn't pay them the mandated difference if their tips don't add up to minimum wage, etc.

[ChoGGi]

In Canada the min wage is 15 for anyone, tips are extra on top.

[benjaminwootton]

A lot of the people operating on AirBnB are Uber are decent hard working people, but there are also some real chancers who ruin it for everyone. I’m personally back to hotels and taxis after having too many problems with the gig economy.

[haxorito]

I don’t judge all drivers. Most, majority are nice and professional folks. I’m upset how customer support handled the situation.

[septimus111]

I had a non-masked Uber driver report me for not wearing a mask (I was wearing one). It was very strange, my guess is they didn’t like me for some reason and used the feature in a petty way…?

[avree]

This one happened to me too - except it was after the Uber asked me for my destination, and then didn't like it (I was going south from San Francisco, he wanted to stay in SF.)

Instead of just cancelling the ride, he reported me for being maskless in order to get a free cancellation that didn't hurt his driver profile. When I wrote Uber Support to explain I was wearing a mask (and had completed a mask-photo before I could request my next ride), they lectured me on mask-wearing and essentially accused me of lying. Note that I have a 4.9 star rating over 5,000+ Uber rides, so it's not like I'm an infrequent customer or repeat trouble maker.

[ncmncm]

I cannot even imagine wanting to continue using Uber, after this.

No need for a ban, I'm outta this hellhole.

[jbuhbjlnjbn]

The driver might have got you confused with someone else.

When I get frustrated by inexplicable behavior of strangers, Hanlon's Razor helps a little distancing myself and limit the pain brooding about it would cause...

[bombcar]

Almost certainly the driver was using an Uber feature to their advantage. They use Uber every single day and talk to each other - they know how to act so that they get what they want.

"Non masked rider" is probably a way of getting a fee back or invalidating a bad review or something.

[septimus111]

Yes it could be that they got a bad review from someone else and retaliated on the wrong person. Where is the fun in not getting peeved by these things though? ;)

[emptyfile]

You literally tipped a racist insulting you... why?

[marcus0x62]

By leaving a small tip, he was sending a message to the driver that he was displeased with the service. Not leaving a tip at all would not send that message.

[haxorito]

Exactly that ^

[kop316]

This comment provides a good reason: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32763149

[spoils19]

It's a social norm in the US. If you don't like it, there are other countries to eat at.

[jbuhbjlnjbn]

The "social norm" is more a convenient business norm to pay petty wages.

The more you question this norm, the higher the likelihood for change to more healthy business practice.

[kcplate]

Some folks I know who wait tables earn in excess of $750/1k a week…for basically part-time work.

I am sure they would be all for a $15/hour minimum wage, as long as tips were still on the table. However, $15/hour and “we don’t accept tips” sign…you would get a big nope. I doubt you could convince them that it would be better for them to earn $300 for their 20 hours of work.

[jbuhbjlnjbn]

Of course tips should still be allowed.

In Europe we are still tipping, but the waiters do not depend on it. This is a much sweeter situation if you ask me, voluntary good service, vs. forced good service, when you have to worry about rent for the next month.

[kcplate]

The outrage is that people are under the assumption that these wait staff in the US are NOT earning minimum wage. That is incorrect. Wait staff will earn the minimum wage for the time worked, because if tips+pre tip wage is less than the legal minimum, the employer makes up the difference. They have a real benefit over the other minimum wage earners because they can earn more…much much more in some places.

The question of should their employer pay them more per hour? Well, I think the market does a pretty good job of managing that, especially now that in many places in the country restaurants are having a hard time finding the help they need. If I need a server, and my offer is I’ll guarantee them at least $10/hour…that is going to attract workers to me over the restaurant next door offering only $7.5/ hour. If I am fully staffed with good servers, I can attract the customers who will pay my tip earners for me compared to the place next door with lousy service.

[bambax]

The parent is talking about Uber. You should not eat cars, even if it's a "social norm" where you live.

[emptyfile]

Isn't it also a social norm to not be racist and rude, especially in service jobs?

[konschubert]

Not racially insulting others is a social norm, too

[thejackgoode]

It is inconceivable (for someone reading from Europe), that you still left a tip, given the situation

[gambiting]

When I visited America(coming from Europe) that was the biggest shock to me too - we went for a meal with coworkers, the service was absolutely terrible, food was bad, we felt unwelcome the entire time. So at the end of the service I say - well, it was an awful experience, that means we don't leave a tip, right? No no no - say our hosts - you have to leave a tip, otherwise you look like a jerk.

I was like.....but surely.....the whole idea of a tip is to reward good service, right? If the service was bad, then why would you tip?

I still think about it sometimes. It's like the whole idea of tipping "maybe" started with good intentions(rewarding good service) but now transformed into some kind of idiotic virtue signalling(because at the end of the day, what if we look like jerks for not tipping? literally none of us will ever enter this restaurant again, the only thing we achieved by tipping was rewarding bad service, nothing more nothing less).

[saghm]

> I was like.....but surely.....the whole idea of a tip is to reward good service, right? If the service was bad, then why would you tip?

Unfortunately, minimum wage laws in the US have exemptions for workers who are expected to make most of their money through tips, which means that most restaurants pay them well under the "minimum". The question I'd ask in this situation isn't whether the service was good, but whether it was so bad that I think the employees involved don't deserve to even get paid minimum wage. I've yet to ever come to the conclusion that no tip is deserved, and in practice I struggle to think of any circumstance in which the service could be bad enough to deserve that. I guess if I was actually physically harmed due to malicious intent or something then it would maybe warrant that, but I don't think I'd realistically stick around to even eat in that case.

[dvfjsdhgfv]

> The question I'd ask in this situation isn't whether the service was good, but whether it was so bad that I think the employees involved don't deserve to even get paid minimum wage.

But ensuring the minimum wage is paid should be the responsibility of the employer, not some random customer. Everything is backwards here.

[kortilla]

> Unfortunately, minimum wage laws in the US have exemptions for workers who are expected to make most of their money through tips, which means that most restaurants pay them well under the "minimum".

Minimum wage is still the floor. The restaurant has to pay the difference if they are under.

[AngryData]

But they don't get paid minimum wage for just your meal, a person not tipping just ends up taking away from tips they earned from someone else that was over minimum wage. Not to mention not making tip minimums and asking for more wage from the restaurant will quickly get you fired.

[TheCoelacanth]

In theory. In practice, asking the restaurant to actually follow that law is a good way to get fired.

[EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK]

>> minimum wage laws in the US have exemptions

No waiter would accept minimum wage in lieu of tips. This is all bogus talk.

[CalRobert]

Ask any dishwasher if they'd rather have tips or minimum wage (which is what I got as a dishwasher) and I assure you they'd pick tips. There's a lot of workers in the restaurant who aren't as fortunate as your server.

Not sure what the real point of this is but I wish people remembered that in the restaurant hierarchy servers are nowhere near the bottom.

[Broken_Hippo]

That's untrue in some circumstances, and misleading in many others.

Some folks are making around minimum wage anyway, and some employers steal tips. At least a steady wage gets you something easier to fall back on.

It should be said that minimum wage is low enough that fast food often pays more. So yes, you are correct that minimum wage isn't competitive enough. You'd have to pay more.

Few might trade tips for minimum wage, but trading tips for a steady income? Sure. No more getting shafted. No more getting stuck with low-tipping shifts because someone else is more liked by the manager (folks get punished with low-tip-earning shifts). Customers won't be able to have so much leverage over you because they will no longer be directly responsible for your week's wages.

[RHSeeger]

> Few might trade tips for minimum wage, but trading tips for a steady income

Not if the wait-person believes that their low pay + tips averages out to a good amount more than the steady income would.

[saghm]

Even if that's the case, is that an argument in favor of withholding tips? My point is that tips generally are the bulk of the compensation for restaurant staff, so if you don't tip, you're essentially enjoying a meal subsidized at their expense. It doesn't realistically matter all that much what my preferences about tipping versus higher wages for restaurant staff is as a consumer; my only choices when eating at a restaurant are to tip or not to tip, and personally I don't really see any way I could justify choosing the latter given the circumstances.

[masukomi]

The federal minimum wage for servers and other tipped employees in the US is $2.13 per hour. I don't think it's increased in literally 40 years.

some restaurants have slow days, and the waitstaff doesn't have a choice. They get minimum wage because there are no tips, or there are so few customers as to make the tips meaningless vs the hours spent.

[RHSeeger]

However, as noted previously, that sub-minimum wage is "before tips". If, over the course of a week (iirc), the waiter makes less than the actual minimum wage ($7.25 federally), then the employer must make up the difference. That being said, I would guess any wait staff that go this route on a regular basis don't wind up employed for long.

[m000]

> No waiter would accept minimum wage in lieu of tips. This is all bogus talk.

Actually you just made it bogus, by bringing up a strawman argument. Who mandates that waiters should only be paid minimum wage? Or that they would have to yield tips in exchange for a fixed wage?

[kcplate]

Sure, but then you change the equation and reasoning behind the need. By increasing the base amount it becomes no longer about the employee earning a minimum wage (who likely already is and many times over the minimum wage via their tips), but about intentionally punishing the employer.

[workingon]

While I wouldnt have tipped this person, you still tip during regular 'bad service' (like slowness or burnt food or whatever), because even though things didnt meet your expectations doesn't mean you should take advantage of the fact that the state makes it legal to pay servers only $2 an hour. The prices of your shit meal were lower because of this, so you should at least make up the difference to a minimum livable wage, which is the cost it would've been if the state wasnt retrograde.

Unless of course you think people who are bad servers don't deserve to make minimum wage.

[gambiting]

>>Unless of course you think people who are bad servers don't deserve to make minimum wage.

I think that it shouldn't be the customers responsibility to even know what the server is making, and logically it shouldn't be their responsibility to make sure they are paid X or Y. You come in, order food, pay for the food, leave. The business owner should be responsible to keep their employees compensated well enough that they don't want to leave.

But like I said in another comment - the situation in US is a result of literally decades of social conditioning, where the population has been told by business owners that it's their(customers) responsibility to make sure that service workers are compensated well enough to not be in poverty, and it's your personal responsibility to tip or the person will starve.

It's gotten to the point where people make this argument in absolute earnest, and truly believe what they say, like it's the most obvious thing in the world. It really is a marvel of social engineering, and a boon for American businesses I'm sure.

>>because even though things didnt meet your expectations doesn't mean you should take advantage of the fact that the state makes it legal to pay servers only $2 an hour

That actually furthers my point above - the side taking advantage of $2 minimum wage is the employer, not the customer.

[RHSeeger]

>> Unless of course you think people who are bad servers don't deserve to make minimum wage.

> It's gotten to the point where people make this argument in absolute earnest

Because the way the pay works at the moment is the way the pay works at the moment, and we tip based on that. The fact that people believe the pay _shouldn't_ work that way is no excuse for not tipping your wait staff at all _today_.

> That actually furthers my point above - the side taking advantage of $2 minimum wage is the employer, not the customer.

Not really, at least not in most cases. If tips went away and the employer paid more, the prices of the meals would go up to compensate. The restaurant owners aren't making more money because of the current system; most of them aren't making a large profit. The owners aren't paying sub-minimum wage because they want to pocket the difference; they're doing it because to do otherwise would drive them out of business (because their competition is also doing it). You need to change the rules for everyone in order for almost anyone to do better.

[workingon]

Youre just bucking the responsibility thats put on you. It sucks the state makes it that way, but youre only hurting other people. If you disagree with tipping then dont go to a restaraunt in a state that requires it. Your self righteous arguments fall on deaf ears of people who work for tips and have to put up with jerks like you.

There are so many instances where the government allows people to be exploited here in America. If youre taking advantage of that and exploiting them -- you are a part of the problem -- it is that simple.

[origin_path]

Why does the state make it that restaurants don't pay waiters enough? There is no obligation to only pay the minimum wage. Some countries in Europe don't even have a minimum wage at all and there's still no tipping culture like the USA. It really is just something that's considered normal in the US and bizarre everywhere else.

[gambiting]

>> If youre taking advantage of that and exploiting them -- you are a part of the problem -- it is that simple.

The only side expliting anyone here is the employers exploiting their employees. It's that simple. But we don't have to agree on this.

>> If you disagree with tipping then dont go to a restaraunt in a state that requires it.

Like I said in my comment above, I was only visiting America - and I did tip while I was there, for your information.

>> Your self righteous arguments fall on deaf ears of people who work for tips and have to put up with jerks like you.

All I have done so far is made my arguments here on HN, not sure that deserves being called a jerk.

[ctrlmeta]

> Unless of course you think people who are bad servers don't deserve to make minimum wage.

Why should the responsibility of paying a bonus (a tip) to the server fall on the customer? Why shouldn't the business be held responsible for paying them the bonus? As someone from Europe, I find it difficult to wrap my head around the fact that it is somehow customer's responsibility to pay them a bonus/tip even if there has been a bad service. In my mind it should clearly be the responsibility of the business to pay them what they deserve.

[lazyasciiart]

Those are very solid arguments for not allowing businesses to pay less than minimum wage, or for (as an individual) not visiting places that allow businesses to pay less than minimum wage. They aren’t terribly relevant to the situation where you just ate somewhere that does pay less than minimum wage.

[ctrlmeta]

> They aren’t terribly relevant to the situation where you just ate somewhere that does pay less than minimum wage.

Sorry for being obstuse but I still don't understand. How as a customer I would know whether the place where I ate at is paying less than minimum wage or not?

[marak830]

As mentioned above though, as the company has to cover a lack of tips Uptoinimum wage, they won't be paid under minimum (at least that's what I'm taking from this).

[tsukikage]

> The prices of your shit meal were lower because of this

Can one really claim that when, in the same breath, one also claims tips are near-mandatory?

What this situation actually means is that the business entices you in with a low price in the menu, but that price is only tangentially related to the amount I end up paying when it comes time to pay. The thing that is "lower" is not the amount of money that leaves my wallet at the end of the meal, and I am never told up front what that total will be. This is actually true of most transactions in the US, because taxes also work in a similar fashion.

Elsewhere, the norms are different. In some places, when, as a customer, you see a price for goods and services, that is exactly the amount of money you pay; it is the responsibility of whoever is setting the price to set it at an appropriate level so they can appropriately compensate whatever third parties they need to compensate. In other places, the norm might be to haggle; but even there you know what the agreed total will be before you receive the goods or services.

That said, the US approach is actually not entirely an unfamiliar experience to Europeans: budget airlines operate on the same principle of "quote low price up front then the customer pays way more at the end for things that are technically but not really optional" here - and we hate those just as much.

[madeofpalk]

> doesn't mean you should take advantage of the fact that the state makes it legal to pay servers only $2 an hour.

Instead the state and the restaurant should take advantage of you and the employee?

[RHSeeger]

If the waitstaff was payed more and tips were removed from the equation, the meal would cost more. It doesn't wind up costing you more to tip than is the system was changed; unless you tip very well (in which case, you might be one of those people that would tip even if the system was changed).

[madeofpalk]

Isn't that good? When the prices directly include the cost of what it takes to create it?

You say this as a bad thing, as if basically every other country doesn't do this?

[gambiting]

I just don't think that's true. Food in the UK(in restaurants) is just as cheap if not cheaper than in US and tipping is entirely optional, plus minimum wage and employee protections are a lot higher. So I don't think the low wage necessarily correlates to cheap meal prices

[raverbashing]

> Unless of course you think people who are bad servers don't deserve to make minimum wage.

No but I do think the establishment has the responsibility to list the actual price of services rendered

[yccs27]

I'd be inclined to agree, if the the tips didn't factor into the minimum wage calculation - so that in the medium-term, higher average tips ddidn't just lead to lower pay from the employer.

Of course this is coming from an European, so the whole tipping culture is foreign to me.

[mnau]

Incredible amount of goods or services I consume pay $2/hour, if they are lucky. Bangladesh, India, take your pick. I certainly take advatage fo that. Why should I pay more?

It's not my job to fix laws and it's not my job to make sure a person has a good wage.

[pasquinelli]

it's not really the point, but there's no reason to think your meal was cheaper because of the low wages. if you're the restaurant owner, if your labor costs suddenly went down, why would you lower your prices?

[RHSeeger]

I have no doubt at all that, if owners suddenly had to pay waitstaff more, the prices of meals would go up. Because the owners need to make money too, and most of them have pretty thin margins.

[dwater]

You will not be surprised to learn that tipping in the US started with racial oppression after slavery was abolished. It created a way to employ people without paying them wages.

https://time.com/5404475/history-tipping-american-restaurant...

[behringer]

I wouldnt have tipped. That said, as a guest to the country and at a work gathering you may want to tip just to not leave a bad impression of yourself.

[gambiting]

Well yes, obviously we tipped at the end, but I was just surprised that everyone in our group was unhappy with the entire service and food, yet we still had to top. There is a saying where I'm from "co kraj to obyczaj" - "every country has its customs". That custom just stood out for me.

[behringer]

hmm if it was a large party, generally you are obligated to tip and they already include it on the receipt. Be especially careful not to tip twice in these cases. Though I think that's insane, but I guess large groups have a reputation of stiffing wait staff.

[bscphil]

As an American, I would not have tipped in that situation. I wouldn't have even considered it. I don't think that's far out of the norm for a situation involving extremely poor service and abusive behavior. I could be wrong but I don't think "Americanism" is the explanation for what happened here, though I agree that our approach to tipping is a bit bonkers overall.

[bombcar]

The "small tip" is to let them know "I didn't forget to tip, I'm tipping you a tiny amount so you know I'm mad".

[bscphil]

I guess that works in theory, but Americans don't generally "forget" to tip. Every time you sign a receipt there's an explicit line for a tip. Apps like Uber have a button you have to press to not leave a tip.

[noja]

In America a "tip" should be understood as a compulsory wage supplement paid by the customer. It can often also include a traditional "tip" (i.e. for good service).

Once you use this definition, everything becomes much simpler.

[thejackgoode]

I know this, but whose responsibility it is to clean up this legacy construct that comes from prohibition time, has no good reason to exist today, and causes misery on both sides?

[tremon]

Once you use this definition, everything becomes much simpler

Only if use a similar newspeak definition for "simpler".

[danielbln]

In tipping countries, a tiny tip is often more insulting than no tip. Ludicrous to me as well coming from Europe, but hey, that's how they do it.

[shultays]

I wish people gave me their insults or bad feedback in the form of small tips

[gambiting]

"you've done an extremely poor job this year, so we're only giving you a small payraise this year" - insanity.

[simonh]

Continental Europe used to be a tipping zone, but it seems like it suddenly stopped about 20 years ago.

[parasti]

Why do you think that happened? Honestly curious.

[simonh]

I really don’t know, I’m a Brit and found that one year I went on a business trip and suddenly it had just stopped.

I wouldn’t say the IK really has a tipping culture. We do it in restaurants occasionally, especially ones where drinking is a big part of it, but nobody will get annoyed if you don’t. My daughters work part time waitressing at a restaurant near us that’s pretty expensive and sells a lot of cocktails and such, and they sometimes come home with £30 in tips.

On the continent it used to be required. Waiters at cafes would get very upset if you didn’t tip, or didn’t tip enough. The guys that helped with luggage at hotels too. Then it just stopped. You still can and some do, but the passive aggressive pressure just went, everywhere as far as I can tell.

[danielbln]

Summarising 27 countries with "the continent" might be painting with too broad of a brush, there are quite some differences between the different member states, though there is usually none where more than 10% tips is common, most have the tips embedded in a service fee.

[MayeulC]

Credit cards, maybe? Then, I don't know how it was back then. Was it really a thing?

My friends and I still leave tips when service is exceptionally good.

[glandium]

It's certainly true that "keep the change" was quite common, and well, you can't do that with digital money.

[krageon]

Even if they absolutely need it to eat or it is "normal" (as I was repeatedly informed in NA), I refuse to tip an asshole. It is not my problem that they go hungry, it is my problem that they made my day worse. Why reward that behaviour?

[8f2ab37a-ed6c]

In the US you are shamed for not tipping people regardless of how poorly they performed. The argument is that, without tipping, hard working blue collar will fall into dire straits. Them having a bad day and mistreating you doesn't mean they should be condemned to poverty.

[gambiting]

>>Them having a bad day and mistreating you doesn't mean they should be condemned to poverty.

Do Americans apply the same logic to other areas of life? If your plumber comes over and messes up the installation completely so you have water leaking every time you use a shower, do you still pay them full price for the service? After all maybe they just had a bad day, and that shouldn't condemn them to poverty?

Of course I'm reducing it to some absurdity, but to adress your argument in seriousness - it's incredible to me that American businesses managed to successfully shift the perception of responsibility to you(customers) rather than business owners. It's a result of decades of conditioning and being told that it's up to YOU, the customer, to make sure our employees are not "condemed to poverty". It's a feat of social engineering really.

[moonchrome]

>If your plumber comes over and messes up the installation completely so you have water leaking every time you use a shower, do you still pay them full price for the service? After all maybe they just had a bad day, and that shouldn't condemn them to poverty?

This is a wrong analogy. If the plumber came in pissed off and was swearing all the time but got the job done then yes I would pay. Would probably not call him again if I was that bothered.

If I got served uncooked food I would not pay, but if the waiter was rude and I had to wait long I'll still tip them - less then I would otherwise.

And context is a lot here as well - if I see the place is packed and there's like two people doing a shift I can understand they are stressed out and I'm waiting longer cause it's super busy.

Am European and honestly feel like tipping vs not tipping says more about you than it does about the service. When I see someone penny counting at the restaurant it usually makes me think less about them. I don't like socialising with miserly people (if I think you have the money to cover it, naturally). Depends on the setting too, if it's just grabbing lunch at the cafeteria then I just pay by card and usually don't tip, but when it's a social thing then yeah - it's a luxury thing you do and share with others.

[matt-attack]

Ok the contrary, to me the experience is a first class component of why I go out to eat. So I think the analogy with the leaky pipes applies.

Dining out simply isn’t just about being fed. The restaurant can’t just say “hey you consumed the calories, so MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!”

If I have a bad experience, I’m being stiffed by the establishment. I mean think what else is baked into the food’s sticker price: restaurant decor, music, ambiance, etc. Those are things you’re paying for. It’s why the price of food is higher than the grocery store.

[moonchrome]

There are fancy fine dining places where you have separate waiters serve you food while another is explaining the menu, sommelier offering wine pairings. If that's your thing that's where you pay for it.

On the other hand I don't go to normal restaurants to get entertained by waiters, and they have to be pretty terrible to cross the threshold where they are affecting my experience to the point where I'd leave (failing their purpose like the plumber example).

[gambiting]

Well yes, like I said it was me reducing it to absurdity :-) But what you said makes sense(in the context of everything else I know about the American tipping system).

[8f2ab37a-ed6c]

I added some context in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32771419

[ctrlmeta]

> Them having a bad day and mistreating you doesn't mean they should be condemned to poverty.

That's all good but why does this logic apply to the customers and not the business owners?

[8f2ab37a-ed6c]

In the US restaurant owners are legally allowed to pay their staff less than minimum wage because waiters will make up the difference through tips.

Which is brilliant, because 1. they are able to show "discounted" food prices on the menu, with the expectation that the customer will end up paying an extra 20% in tip and x% in taxes on top of it 2. they can pay their staff less than they would have to otherwise.

The consumer gets screwed. The staff gets screwed. The business owner does ok, but the restaurant industry is pretty rough anyway, so it's unclear if they're laughing all the way to the bank anyway.

[988747]

Not giving tip might be interpreted like you come from the culture where people do not tip. Giving very small tip is clearly an insult :)

[workingon]

I like to think he left 69 cents

[michaelwww]

I drove Uber for awhile and I believe this story falls short of being entirely factual