[8f2ab37a-ed6c]

In the US you are shamed for not tipping people regardless of how poorly they performed. The argument is that, without tipping, hard working blue collar will fall into dire straits. Them having a bad day and mistreating you doesn't mean they should be condemned to poverty.

[gambiting]

>>Them having a bad day and mistreating you doesn't mean they should be condemned to poverty.

Do Americans apply the same logic to other areas of life? If your plumber comes over and messes up the installation completely so you have water leaking every time you use a shower, do you still pay them full price for the service? After all maybe they just had a bad day, and that shouldn't condemn them to poverty?

Of course I'm reducing it to some absurdity, but to adress your argument in seriousness - it's incredible to me that American businesses managed to successfully shift the perception of responsibility to you(customers) rather than business owners. It's a result of decades of conditioning and being told that it's up to YOU, the customer, to make sure our employees are not "condemed to poverty". It's a feat of social engineering really.

[moonchrome]

>If your plumber comes over and messes up the installation completely so you have water leaking every time you use a shower, do you still pay them full price for the service? After all maybe they just had a bad day, and that shouldn't condemn them to poverty?

This is a wrong analogy. If the plumber came in pissed off and was swearing all the time but got the job done then yes I would pay. Would probably not call him again if I was that bothered.

If I got served uncooked food I would not pay, but if the waiter was rude and I had to wait long I'll still tip them - less then I would otherwise.

And context is a lot here as well - if I see the place is packed and there's like two people doing a shift I can understand they are stressed out and I'm waiting longer cause it's super busy.

Am European and honestly feel like tipping vs not tipping says more about you than it does about the service. When I see someone penny counting at the restaurant it usually makes me think less about them. I don't like socialising with miserly people (if I think you have the money to cover it, naturally). Depends on the setting too, if it's just grabbing lunch at the cafeteria then I just pay by card and usually don't tip, but when it's a social thing then yeah - it's a luxury thing you do and share with others.

[matt-attack]

Ok the contrary, to me the experience is a first class component of why I go out to eat. So I think the analogy with the leaky pipes applies.

Dining out simply isn’t just about being fed. The restaurant can’t just say “hey you consumed the calories, so MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!”

If I have a bad experience, I’m being stiffed by the establishment. I mean think what else is baked into the food’s sticker price: restaurant decor, music, ambiance, etc. Those are things you’re paying for. It’s why the price of food is higher than the grocery store.

[moonchrome]

There are fancy fine dining places where you have separate waiters serve you food while another is explaining the menu, sommelier offering wine pairings. If that's your thing that's where you pay for it.

On the other hand I don't go to normal restaurants to get entertained by waiters, and they have to be pretty terrible to cross the threshold where they are affecting my experience to the point where I'd leave (failing their purpose like the plumber example).

[gambiting]

Well yes, like I said it was me reducing it to absurdity :-) But what you said makes sense(in the context of everything else I know about the American tipping system).

[8f2ab37a-ed6c]

I added some context in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32771419

[ctrlmeta]

> Them having a bad day and mistreating you doesn't mean they should be condemned to poverty.

That's all good but why does this logic apply to the customers and not the business owners?

[8f2ab37a-ed6c]

In the US restaurant owners are legally allowed to pay their staff less than minimum wage because waiters will make up the difference through tips.

Which is brilliant, because 1. they are able to show "discounted" food prices on the menu, with the expectation that the customer will end up paying an extra 20% in tip and x% in taxes on top of it 2. they can pay their staff less than they would have to otherwise.

The consumer gets screwed. The staff gets screwed. The business owner does ok, but the restaurant industry is pretty rough anyway, so it's unclear if they're laughing all the way to the bank anyway.