[dirktheman]

I scored straight A's in french back in school. Then I went to work in France, expecting little issues with understanding the locals.

Turns out understanding a heavy Auvergnat accent is... difficult! I wrestled with the accent a couple of weeks, but after a while it 'clicked'. This was pretty much a matter of 'waking up and not having to translate it in your mind', a very strange sensation. I learned to distinct several accents: Parisian and Marseillais are different beasts, and Swiss-french is also different (I totally dig their counting system though, septante, huitante et nonante makes so much more sense).

Also, I learned that the french in school is nothing like the french they speak in France. Sure, you get by and they'll understand you, but french relies heavy on vernacular, sayings and expressions.

Nowadays people think I'm a Walloon (French-speaking from Belgium, while I'm Dutch), which is a great compliment to me!

[antb123]

Canadian (anglo) here that went to French immersion (teachers were mostly from France). I don't really have an accent which sucks. People just think I am a stupid French person who makes grammatical mistakes here and there and has a more limited vocabulary set.

I am jealous of my American friends who speak with heavy accents and receive praise about their mastery.

[geebee]

I know someone who was in that situation. She had a remarkable knack for accents (and recreating sounds generally) and did pick up French more quickly than I could. I wonder if this counts as a kind of "uncanny valley", because my experience was exactly what you reported. I spoke understandable but accented French, tilted more toward written formal French than conversational French (where I was much more limited). My friend, on the other hand, just seemed like a French person but with a faint speech anomaly and an oddly limited vocabulary at times.

It's not surprising that people initially took my version of French as an effort to learn a language properly, and hers as a sign of cognitive issues or trouble with language. Even once someone's aware of it, it won't necessary change the fundamental reaction (kind of what taller children go through - even when people learn they're much younger, they still apparently have trouble applying the standards they normally would for younger children).

Not sure what else to say about this, other than that I've seen it exactly was you describe (though not quite with the "heavy" accent, more of a moderate but immediately noticeable one).

[watermelon59]

> My friend, on the other hand, just seemed like a French person but with a faint speech anomaly and an oddly limited vocabulary at times.

Damn, now I wonder if that's how I come off when speaking English.

I'm from South America and have been living in the US for the last 8 years. But even before that, I always really liked English and as a kid worked really hard to emulate the way I heard it spoken in American TV shows.

The way I speak has been described as, "pretty much no accent, but you don't sound like you're from anywhere in particular." Other immigrants sometimes think I'm American, but most people say I sound like someone who speaks English as their first language, but they aren't be able to tell which country I could be from.

Maybe I should just have a bit more of a foreign accent, after all :D

[tomcam]

Well your written English is flawless. Pretty cool.

[watermelon59]

Thank you :)

[wincy]

What you described reminds me of Rosamund Pike in “Gone Girl”, I kept wondering what the deal was with her accent. But it turns out she’s British and did accent lessons. Her English wasn’t incorrect but just sounded really strange to my Midwest ears.

[watermelon59]

Oh hey :) I remember your username. I replied to a comment of yours yesterday.

Interesting. I'm gonna watch that movie when I get chance.

[jedimastert]

> I don't really have an accent which sucks. People just think I am a stupid French person who makes grammatical mistakes here and there and has a more limited vocabulary set.

I recently stumbled across a French/English comedy special which has a bit specifically about this, and how much French people judge other French people's French.

I have absolutely zero experience with French and I still found most of the clips entertaining

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIqVY1SwXls

[antb123]

Thanks ! Hilarious. Its true French are super judgmental about French (not Québécois so much). Amusingly African French are exactly the same or worse then Europeans.

I had a girlfriend who did exactly the same as his wife.

[ftio]

In this boat with my Italian. Northerners think I'm from the South. Southerners think I'm from Rome. Imagine their surprise when I tell them I'm from another Italy... Staten Italy.

[davidw]

Hah, I had this happen when doing some work in Rome. The CEO of the startup remarked that I had a heavy American accent, which... I was a bit taken aback by, because I rarely hear that, and I work hard to speak Italian well. Later, he heard me speaking with another guy at the company who was from near where I lived in Padova, and it dawned on him (I don't think he was the sharpest tool in the shed) that my accent was more 'Veneto' than American.

[GEBBL]

Is that in staten island?

[ftio]

Staten Island == Staten Italy

Staten Island has a very large population of Italian-Americans. Italian-American culture pervades many facets of Staten Island life and culture, even among non-Italians — so much so that many residents (and former residents like me) sometimes jokingly refer to it as Staten Italy.

[edumucelli]

This is exactly the joke Paul Taylor (British living in France) tells in his standup show [1], which is super funny. I went to watch him live, what a great standup show.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pae2AMnmUVA

[r00fus]

While working in France a couple of decades ago, I found that I got better service if I botched the accent and stuck to basic language (which I was ok at) than if I tried to match accent, use l'argot and sound native (which is my tendency) and screwed up language.

It was a helluva realization about psychology.

[f430]

They teach us Quebecois accent which is sort of like the Texan/Southern dialect. It's associated with negative stereotypes.

On one call I recall a team from Paris snickering as my Quebecois co-worker spoke who was confused and embarrassed.

Heureusement, mon professeur était parisien.

[kergonath]

Québécois is lovely, though! It’s just funny sometimes and they have interesting phrases. Granted, it’s probably not the best if you learn French as a foreign language, but still. I love speaking with French Canadians.

[yborg]

The swearing is the best part.

[soperj]

That's it in a nutshell though, would in the US/Canada actually snicker because someone was talking with a Texan accent? It's a bit ridiculous.

[asveikau]

Yeah, kinda. The stereotype [yes they are stereotypes, not trying to offend anybody] of a southern accent in the northeastern US is that the speaker is slow, unintelligent, backward, or most charitably, "folksy".

I'm not from the south so I'm not as sure what the stereotype is in the opposite direction -- about the "yankees". Probably that they are inept and arrogant? Any time I've heard American southerners talk about "yankees" that's pretty much the tone

Out on the west coast I never hear about these dynamics anymore. People don't care about north/south here. Though curiously to me, I have encountered many westerners who sound more southern than northern to my ear.

[kergonath]

People in England do that all the time.

[soperj]

As someone who also did French Immersion in Canada, I'm very surprised that most of your teachers were from France. Over 13 years in school, I think every single teacher I had that spoke french was Quebecois, and taught Quebecois.

[cperciva]

This was my experience too. A few years ago I was at a conference in Paris, and I understood every word which the people around me said in French... but the people around me didn't understand a single word I said in French!

[kergonath]

My experience is that French is flat (rather monotonous rhythm and stress is much less important than in English). This makes it somewhat easy to follow for foreigners after some training compared to e.g. Spanish which is typically all over the place and very fast (though not more difficult once you get the hang of it).

On the other hand French speaker can get confused by strange intonation or stresses. Also there are several sounds that do not exist in English (e.g. /eu/, /u/, and the nasals /an/, /on/, /in/, the /ill/ can be problematic as well). Approximations of these sounds are distracting and can be genuinely confusing. And contrary to some English accents you can’t count on properly stressed syllables to help carry the meaning.

During my time in New York I had the opposite problem. As a native French speaker with some English education (having lived in London), apparently people understood me without difficulty. On the other hand, it took me a while to get the meaning of what other people were saying without asking them to repeat. After months it was still difficult to understand announcements in the subway.

[a_t48]

> After months it was still difficult to understand announcements in the subway.

Don't worry, native English speakers also have difficulties with this

[GirkovArpa]

push, p/eu/sh?

long, l/on/ng, l/an/ng?

[kergonath]

Not quite, /eu/ in French is deeper, closer to /ö/ in German, I really can’t think of an English word with the same sound.

The /on/ nasal vowel is also approximated in “don’t” in some English accent, but again often imperfectly. In French, you don’t hear the n at all, whereas it is most often noticeable in “long”. AFAICT, the closest is /ão/ in Portuguese.

[idoubtit]

> french relies heavy on vernacular, sayings and expressions.

It's more than that. There's a growing divergence between the spoken French and the written French.

Où irions-nous ? Nous hésitâmes... (written French)

On allait où ? On a hésité... (spoken French)

Writings from the XVIIth century bare little difference to most modern novels. Of course, some words have evolved (e.g. "caresser" was akin to "praise", now it's more like "pet" or "fondle") but the grammar and the vocabulary is mostly identical.

Centuries ago, the langage spoken was already different from what was written. I think the main difference was that there were many local variations, like shown in the Littré dictionary (1870s). The uniformization came with WWI, then the modern communication.

[dirktheman]

Yes, they don't teach you the "on a...", "faire le truc avec...", "ouais" and "ca marche" at school, altough everyone uses this. I just wish schools would prepare you a little better for the difference between writing and speaking. My daughter learned to say "chouette, c'est jolie!" in her french class, which is preposterous and almost akin to saying 'Jolly gay, old chap!' in English today.

[pmezard]

> My daughter learned to say "chouette, c'est joli !" in her french class, which is preposterous and almost akin to saying 'Jolly gay, old chap!' in English today.

Don't be so harsh. I would not be surprised to hear a child (~6/8 years old) say that, assuming some kind of polite/policed family background.

> Yes, they don't teach you the "on a...", "faire le truc avec...", "ouais" and "ca marche"

Imagine us watching Stringer Bell from "The Wire" for the first time. Or listening to pop or rap. Or chatting with native speakers.

We just have more exposure.

[lqet]

> Imagine us watching Stringer Bell from "The Wire" for the first time.

I tried to watch "The Wire" without English subtitles 10 years ago. No chance. I could barely make out individual words. After a season with subtitles, it just clicked.

[tsukurimashou]

Pandemic, we got pandemic!

[mistahenry]

I'm an American living in Germany and I'm always thrilled when Germans think I'm Dutch after hearing my German ;)

As for the accents, I had a similar experience when moving around from Berlin to Munich to Mainz with regard to the "clicking". It's like my brain suddenly recalibrated to understand the vowel and consonant changes in the accent (and particularly in certain areas the parts of the words that simply were dropped off the beginning/end of the word).

People often tell me "Wow, I wish I was good at languages like you" and I honestly want them to understand how I feel: I didn't learn German, I simply spent enough time in the language for my brain to catch up and learn it for me.

[dep_b]

Because you sound like the guy who dubbed Goldeneye to them!

(JK ;) )

[geebee]

I often watch French language tv shows or movies to keep up my language skills. I recently watched "Call my agent." Way better than "Versailles" ;)

Thing is, it's very difficult for me to understand. But I realized that if I put on CC in French, I can understand it no problem, almost as well as if the CC was in English. But without the CC, I can't understand it well enough to enjoy the show.

This leads me to believe that my difficulty in understanding spoken vs written French might not be so much grammar and vocab of spoken French, but rather the difficulty of translating sounds to words in real time.

I really should leave the CC off entirely, but I want to enjoy the show, so for now, my compromise is to watch with CC in French. I am almost certainly compromising my language skills this way, though.

[hnick]

> This leads me to believe that my difficulty in understanding spoken vs written French might not be so much grammar and vocab of spoken French, but rather the difficulty of translating sounds to words in real time.

I'm an English-only speaker and watch English with subtitles and it definitely increases my understanding too. I think I definitely have a problem mapping sounds to meaning, names especially can take me 3 or 4 times to hear properly when introduced if it's a little noisy. It gets embarrassing to ask them to repeat themselves.

Spoken conversations also don't stick as well in my memory - if I read something once there's a good chance I remember it adequately, not so much for listening.

[robotmay]

I asked some French friends if there was any good French TV that I could watch to learn more, but also enjoy at the same time. They started talking amongst themselves and I honestly thought they hadn't heard me, until about 5 minutes later they turned back and just said: "Non" :D

[bertil]

For an learner who wants to understand, I’d strongly recommend _Le petit prince_e and _L’homme qui plantait des arbres_. Both about an hour long, beautifully animated, adapted verbatim from books that have easy to find translations.

Both as meant for children (and adult who think like them) so you might feel condescended to — but both have a very simple, classic language, distinctly articulated that makes it easier to follow for foreigners.

The stories are wonderful too: about what makes a life worthwhile and conservation.

The other recommendation I’d make are:

* audio-books that might not have movie equivalent: the accent in _Regain_, by the same Giono as _L’homme qui plantait des arbres_ has me to tears;

* any version of Criminal (the UK one was popular but the French, German and Spanish one are great too); all have the same minimal set and nothing but dialogue (it feels like a hilarious and successful exercise in saving money on production);

* hopefully _Lupin_: it’s brand new, I haven’t watched it yet but friends say it’s great. It seems to have a wide variety of contemporary accents, fast paced dialogue so not for the early learner.

[kergonath]

Le petit prince, although understandable by children, evokes deep philosophical ideas and a subtle sense of humour and can also be a great experience for adults. The language is beautiful and would really shine in a good audiobook.

> hopefully _Lupin_: it’s brand new, I haven’t watched it yet but friends say it’s great. It seems to have a wide variety of contemporary accents, fast paced dialogue so not for the early learner.

Yes, Lupin is great for that. The accents are not too heavy and the text, though not high literature, is not too dumb (often a problem with series, to be honest). The language is contemporary with a bit of slang but nothing outlandish that I recall. Also, the American accents of the dubbed version are completely out of character so the French audio is the way to go anyway.

[throwaway744678]

Engrenages, le Bureau des Légendes. You will not regret it.

[syl_sau]

As a français, I second this. I'm extremely critical of most TV shows and I tend to quit very fast when get the impression I'm losing time. Engrenages is about the only TV shows I am able to watch in french, and it's a really good one. I'd would say, frankly, that it's our equivalent to The Wire.

[Bayart]

The Bureau (Le Bureau des Légendes) is the only good French show I've seen lately, and it's also one of my favourite shows period.

My all time favourite French show, Kaamelott, would be utterly inpenetrable for non-native French speakers because it relies heavily on verbal comedy and speech registers.

[dirktheman]

I really enjoyed 'Marseille' (it's on Netflix I believe). Although I'm fairly proficient in french I watched it with the french subtitles on so I could learn all kinds of new swearing words and verlan (street language where you inverse the order of syllables).

[Udo_Schmitz]

May I recommend https://madelen.ina.fr/ They have old tv shows that are easier to follow then contemporary series. I also enjoy to watch French dubbed US shows on Netflix that I‘m already familiar with.

[ad404b8a372f2b9]

Watch "Au service de la France" and "Family Business", both really funny. Second one is a bit vulgar.

[jrockway]

I have that experience with anime. Sometimes Japanese subtitles really help.

[brnt]

What's interesting and weird to me: both Dutch and French speakers from Belgium (so, Flemish and Walloon people) often sound like they have the same accent when speaking English! To me at least. Anybody else noticed this?

[roelschroeven]

And Flemish people have a totally different accent when speaking English than Dutch people. TO my ears most Dutch people have a distinct English accent; some more than others, but almost always identifiable as from Dutch origin.

Walter Lewin (as in e.g. https://youtu.be/sJG-rXBbmCc) is a quite extreme example, despite the fact that he has lived in the US since 1966. Carice van Houten (Melisandre in Game of Thrones) has it too but less pronounced.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Flemish people have a distinct English accent too, and that I simply don't notice it as much (being Flemish myself).

Germans speaking English are often recognizable as well.

[JW_00000]

> I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Flemish people have a distinct English accent too

Yes! One thing I sometimes notice is that, in Flemish we pronounce "wat is" as "wadis", and sometimes Flemish people in English will also say "Whad is". So Flemish people end up saying "Whad is dat?" instead of "What is that?". (Also lots of "eh?"s and the occasional "allez" pop up.)

[JW_00000]

As a Flemish person, I wouldn't say Flemish and Walloon have the same accent in English, but I guess I'm not the one to judge. What is funny though, is that _in English_, you can sometimes detect different Flemish accents, i.e. when someone is speaking in English, I can tell whether they're from West-Flanders, from Antwerp, or from Limburg (in the east of Flanders). Their typical Flemish accent seeps through in their English. Also, the Dutch have the same accent in English as they do in Dutch (compared to the Flemish variant of Dutch).

[dep_b]

French R and soft G are shared among other things between the French and people from the South of Holland and below.

[ilamont]

Godfather was Walloon, ex-roommate was Flemish. Very different accents when speaking English - my godfather sounded like a French person, the Flemish roommate could be mistaken for a Scandinavian ... also notable that he sounded nothing like a Dutch person, who in my experience have very good British or North American "clean" accents.

[chrisandchips]

> Also, I learned that the french in school is nothing like the french they speak in France. Sure, you get by and they'll understand you, but french relies heavy on vernacular, sayings and expressions.

Virtually everyone who learns a language in school as you described will feel this way when they encounter native speakers in the target language's country(s) of origin.

The reality of school teaching is that it enforces prescriptive snapshots of the language. It teaches the grammatical "rules" of a language at a moment in time, but these rules are always changing. Common English has changed a lot since 1800; consider how different an English class in 1800s might be from one now, though they are both valid in being called English classes. The classes continue exist, but they are often lingering behind the real deal.

Language is developed naturally by our minds, and its inner workings are still largely unknown to us. The best way to learn it is by actual exposure to it, as it is meant to be used. You are always going to be removed from this reality if you are sitting in a classroom with minimal direct exposure.

[f430]

I can literally hear La pizza song [1] in my head as I read your comment which is pretty much all I remember from elementary school. It was only in my final year of high school that our teacher who was from Paris really pushed us and it didn't involve us singing awkward songs.

Now I have PTSD everytime I see or eat pizza, the song plays in my head, like some sick Pavlov experiment.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j3hPW3pvOw

[robotmay]

Every time I try to pronounce "Auvergne" to a French person they quite literally cannot comprehend what I'm aiming for. It's pretty remarkable that I've been trying for years at this point and still can't get it right! I can manage Clermont-Ferrand at least so I can sort of fudge what I mean using that but still, it would be nice to figure it out one day :D

[bertil]

Auvergne has a lot of the sounds that are almost impossible to get right: 'au' has few equivalent other than the Scandinavian 'å' (and they rarely make the connection), 'v' is muted, the wet 'gn' sounds like the Spanish 'll' but is hard for even then to put in the middle of a word — and the unheard final 'e' will trip anyone in the country for less than two decade.

“Bonjour“ and “croissant” are classic examples too: the opening 'b' is muted, 'j' only exist in some arabic dialect, etc.

I used to live near the Louvre and the hundreds of tourist ordering at the local bakery were offended that, pointing at the pastries and articulating as much as they could, the baker would claim to have no idea what they wanted. I had to explain that she genuinely couldn’t understand and she was sincerely confused at them pointing at a croissant and asking for a “Keurrawssanteu”. Those two things could not be the same — it’s not an accent: someone from Switwzerland or Quebec would have no problem even though they sound completely different. I could make sense because I spoke English. “But I’m speaking in French…” Well… almost.

[triceratops]

> (I totally dig their counting system though, septante, huitante et nonante makes so much more sense).

French beginner, holy shit I'm just gonna use that if I ever speak with native speakers. I'll tell 'em I learned in Switzerland. soixante-dix and quatre-vingt-dix is bonkers!

[pwillia7]

Redoing counting was the best thing the Swiss may have ever done.

[misiti3780]

Not sure if you are a wine drinker, but the natural wines coming out of Auvergne are absolutely delicious!

Some of the most interesting wines in the world IMO.

[martincmartin]

Have you ever gone to Quebec, or heard that accent?

[dirktheman]

Never been there, but I met a french-speaking couple from Montreal once. I could understand them just fine, but couldn't place the accent. It didn't really occur to me hearing white people speaking french were from another country than France. (My former neighbour was from Congo and I was able to converse with him in french although his patois was hard to follow).

[younohoo]

It is said that the Quebec French accent is the same as was spoken in France in the 1600’s and hasn’t changed that much over the years whereas the French accent, has. I’m not sure if this is true, however.

[Bayart]

That's bad popular linguistics. Québec French has kept features that are archaic by Mainland French standards (the most blatant being the unfinished separation of oi and ai, which was solidified around the French Revolution), but it also has its own innovated features.

You've got the same thing going on with American accents, and some of them keeping older English features. Simon Roper made a nice video about that [1].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rb0HPDnc8Y

[kergonath]

I think it’s a case of divergent evolution. We notice archaic phrases because they are funny, but québécois French also evolves.