[Nyandalized]

I don't think people will stop consuming meat if you ask them nicely. You have to make decisions that will hurt the meat industry and make it infeasible.

This would likely best be achieved through slowly dropping tax incentives, and transferring them over to alternatives so that people have something equally economical to today's meat.

[mytailorisrich]

There is no need to go from one extreme to the other. This is about eating "less" meat.

People do not traditionally eat that much meat because meat used to be expensive and its supply limited.

This is still the case in poor countries.

In developed countries, people started to eat more and more meat as they got richer because we naturally like meat and because of clever marketing.

We now eat too much meat, and also consume too much dairy (adults don't need to drink any milk and many don't digest it well, by the way). If people just stopped eating meat at every meal or every day, consumption would drastically drop without too much of a change in daily life.

One solution would be measures to increase prices but that is a political minefield.

[_0w8t]

My grandmother told me that before the second world war for a typical peasant family in Belarus the meat meant a single chicken 2-4 times in a month for the whole family. Only on big celebrations few times in a year people could afford to slaughter a pig or a caw. Even eggs were considered expensive. Milk was more available as most families had a cow. The real staple food was potato and bread.

In cities meat was more available as workers typically earned more. Option to eat meat each day was considered a luxury.

[diyseguy]

Its interesting to hear anecdotal stories like these because they contradict the conventional wisdom nowadays that says you have to eat meat as protein every day - clearly that wasn't the case in prior centuries.

[LegitShady]

what was the life expectancy? what was the standard of living? trying to call back to 1930s belarus as an example to live from is crazy. It doesn't even logically follow that we should avoid meat because poor farmers in belarus didn't each much.

Where's the logical argument?

[berdon]

Is this just being down voted because of tone?

The premise seems valid: just because you can "survive" off of a low-to-no protein diet doesn't mean it should be espoused.

[hombre_fatal]

This post demonstrates the success of marketing "protein is meat". Such that when someone mentions reducing meat consumption, someone else thinks they are referring to a low-to-no protein diet.

[LegitShady]

I find posts about vegan/vegetarian lifestyles to heavily vote in lockstep. People don't like it when someone points out that something that seems to confirm their bias actually contains no logical argument.

Tone is something you read into things, as much as is written into them. If someone is responding because of a perceived tone, it would be wise of them to consider if they're being as aggressive as they accuse the other side of being.

Also, I dont mind being downvoted, I just wish someone would provide a logical argument in response.

[galangalalgol]

When my grandmother was dying in the hospital we sat and talked. I aske what their meals had been like back in the 20s. Every part of every dish has animal protein or fat in it. The turnips were seared un lard, the turnip greens had bacon in them. The biscuit was made with lard too, and yes there was always some pork chicken or beef on the plate. Roots and leaves are healthy and should be most of the volume of our food, but grass fed animal fat is great for getting the remaining calories and animal protein absorbs so much better than pea or rice.

[PeterisP]

In this traditional rural diet "extra protein" (in addition from what protein you get from potatoes and grains and legumes) is mainly supplied by dairy and eggs.

However, slaughtering a pig or two once a year in the autumn also doesn't imply eating pork once a year, for a single family a single pig provides a quite large amount of various cured/smoked/dried meat products that are consumed over the winter, so you still have some meat products (not in large quantities though) on most days.

[ivanhoe]

Not for poor people, those better situated would eat it more often. More importantly, people were not eating just steaks, but all parts of animals, so (in case of my grandparents in Yugoslavia) they'd eat a chicken or pork on Sundays and holidays, but on other days they'd perhaps have a cooked meat and bone marrow from a soup, or fried liver, or stew made from Sunday's leftovers. Also eggs, milk, cheese and other dairy products, that were affordable to everyone.

[loceng]

I think we should be pointing to science - which to date it hasn't been adequately done relating to diet, to see what diet is optimal, and how that varies per group whether that's by blood type, DNA/ancestral data, or other - while taking in the particular sensitivities of each individual as part of the research vs. making the reference points based on a structure of scarcity of what was available based on what people could afford; also having an idea of a person's current health state, how healthy their GI tract is and overall system needs to be taken into account as to how they may or may not respond to different diets - including not limited to how we're only just beginning to understand how gut bacteria and within the whole GI tract can strongly impact outcome.

[LegitShady]

what do you think the standard of living in balarus before the second world war was, and do you think people would accept it now in belarus let alone the the US?

Its odd to call back to 1930s eastern europe for an example of how to live. There are many arguments to make against meat etc but 1930s belarus is not one that logically follows.

[lol768]

>adult don't need to drink any milk and many don't digest it well, by the way

Never understood the obsession with drinking milk on its own (though I never liked the taste of it myself either). There's plenty of calcium to be found in other sources: kale, leafy greens, almonds, fortrified grains, beans/pulses etc.

[harimau777]

This is a very niche reason, but one of the classic diets for beginner weight lifters who want to gain weight is to add a gallon of whole milk a day to their existing diet.

For people that are trying to consume more calories and protein, I don't know of an alternative that combines comparable calorie & protein density, low cost, ease of consumption, and zero preparation time.

More generally, I think that one of the big challenges with plant based diets is a lack of easily available calorie and protein dense foods. (I'm not saying its impossible to get enough calories and protein as a vegan, even as a bodybuilder. Just that it is not nearly as easy.)

[gwm83]

I haven't heard of this and I know a good number of weight trainers. Doesn't this give people massive squirts? Can anyone digest a whole gallon of milk in a day? Gross

[markstos]

Even weight lifting is changing, with one of the top weight lifters being vegan: https://www.greatveganathletes.com/patrik-baboumian-vegan-st...

Dairy in particular can be source of inflammation. One of the benefits of the vegan diets for athletes cited is a fast recovery time after workouts.

[departure]

> with one of the top weight lifters being vegan

That's not exactly true, he's just some buff guy that is strong. He doesn't even look big compared to bodybuilders, regular protein eaters at the gym are his same size.

His 'record' deadlift was 360kg, worlds strongest men all pulled 420kg+ this year. Arnold was in that class back in the 70's.

EDIT: After some research people are saying his european world records were all accomplished before he became vegan in 2011.

[marci]

>> with one of the top weight lifters being vegan

> That's not exactly true, he's just some buff guy that is strong. He doesn't even look big compared to bodybuilders, regular protein eaters at the gym are his same size.

So, because he's a strong buff guy, while "not looking big compared to bodybuilders" (category in which he has not been competing since 1999), and as "regular protein eaters at the gym are his same size", it's not "exactly true" that he's one of the top weight lifters ?

> His 'record' deadlift was 360kg

GP never said "top deadlifter". None of his records are about deadlift. Not sure why you mentioned it.

> EDIT: After some research people are saying his european world records were all accomplished before he became vegan in 2011.

2012 Doesn't count?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrik_Baboumian

[wreath]

I think you are referring to Mark Rippetoe’s suggested diet in his book Starting Strength. In which case, it is worth mentioning that this is suggested for skinny, 18 year old males and to be followed for the duration of the training program (months)

[growlist]

I got a free sample of pea protein powder with some whey one time. It was truly disgusting!

[ppseafield]

Unflavored pea protein is pretty bad, but there are a ton of delicious vegan protein powder options out there.

[dmux]

>Never understood the obsession with drinking milk on its own

It's something that's been consumed for millennia. There are societies based on pastoralism where milk is a huge part of the diet. I'd hardly classify it as being an obsession.

[lol768]

>It's something that's been consumed for millennia. There are societies based on pastoralism where milk is a huge part of the diet. I'd hardly classify it as being an obsession.

Obsession is probably the wrong word, but I'd still be curious as to the history behind it (and how long it continued into adulthood). Especially given its association with and place in a juvenile diet.

[close04]

You're missing one solid reason to drink milk: some people like it. Most of the stuff we eat today is actually not about nutritional needs.

And your argument can always be reshuffled. Swap milk with any one of the items you listed and one by one you can disqualify all of them from consumption. Variety is a good thing, meaning something should be eliminated because it's no good, not because there are alternatives.

There's no requirement or recommendation to cover your daily needs with the least varied diet.

[markstos]

Of people I know who have reduced animal consumption, drinking cow milk and having it on cereal is one of the first things to go.

In the early days soy milk was about the only alternative. Now there are so many dairy-free milk alternatives to try. The proliferation of grocery shelves is a testament to their growing popularity.

[growlist]

One of the strangest things to me about lunch in the Netherlands: adult men drinking milk with their meal, this meal sometimes consisting of a chocolate hundreds and thousands sandwich O_o

[mrep]

That is hilarious because I love to drink milk with sweet pastries and my girlfriend also thinks drinking straight milk is disgusting. It's hard to explain why, but I think the main reason is that I am not super into sweets and milk seems to counteract the sweetness. I also get heartburn frequently and milk tends to help my stomach not feel terrible like it would if I ate a sweet pastry by itself.

[radicalbyte]

At least that's better than drinking buttermilk and a cheese sandwich :)

[academic_nimrod]

People aren't obsessed with it, it's just good. You ever had a cold glass of whole milk with a slice of chocolate cake? It's good for your soul.

[lol768]

I have, I wasn't much of a fan :P

(Cow) milk just seems to have an unpleasant aftertaste to me. I get on well with oat milk, though.

[bigato]

Given the extreme we are in yes, going to the other extreme would be a good thing. And even then, not enough. This is just one of the multiple changes that humanity need to bring about. I don't think people should be prohibited from eating animal products, but those who have the will to remove it completely from their diets would definitely be having a much higher positive impact on the environment.

[mytailorisrich]

It would be helpful, obviously, but it is not necessary and not realistic.

Trying to go to an extreme is counter-productive because people won't follow.

Convincing people not to eat meat at every meal or every day has a much higher chance of delivering significant results quickly.

[harimau777]

A challenge that I could see with convincing people to adopt a more plant based diet is that there is a carbon cost associated with shipping food across the country, but in many parts of the US a plant based diet might be much less appetizing if it is restricted to local crops. For example, much of the country wouldn't have access to citrus fruits, bananas, pineapples, or avocados.

Maybe a solution would be to tax food based on how long it was shipped but to exempt fruits and vegetables from the tax.

[the_gastropod]

This isn't exactly true. The greenhouse gas emissions from shipping, say, bananas, pales in comparison to emissions from even local grass fed beef.

Shipping things that spoil quickly or need refrigeration, obviously, will be less efficient. But on average, plant-based food sources will be significantly more efficient, even if shipped further, than meat ones.

[HunOL]

Well, solution would be to tax carbon, not the specific field. I don't see the reason and disagree to accept meat tax without banana tax. Carbon footprint should be taken into account the same way fuel cost is taken.

[jbob2000]

Na, that's a red herring. We can reduce our meat consumption and not replace it with anything. Americans are over consuming food, we can definitely reduce meat intake without needing to replace it with foods shipped in from out of county.

Also, most of the US population is around the coasts. Shipping a bit of food inland to the people there isn't that big of an impact.

[corodra]

Eh, best to start with stop wasting food, then go with proper calorie count diet. Food waste in America is pretty bad. The gov already does PSAs to try bringing attention to the matter.

[ben509]

> Americans are over consuming food

Overconsumption is generally less than 10% of their caloric needs, so they can't just drop a large source of nutrition.

[mytailorisrich]

Apparently, Americans throw away the equivalent of a third of the calories they consume, and interestingly a lot of fruits and veg. [1]

Reducing waste would dramatically help the environment.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/18/american...

[jnwatson]

So you’re just asking humans to consume fewer calories? Good luck with that.

[magduf]

>and also consume too much dairy (adults don't need to drink any milk and many don't digest it well, by the way)

How much is "too much"?

We don't need to drink tea or coffee either; do you propose getting rid of those too?

For those of us who have no problems digesting it, what exactly is the problem with eating yogurt or drinking milk? Sure, consuming too much of those probably isn't good, but you can say that about literally any food.

For people who don't digest it well, then of course I'd suggest not drinking it. The same goes for any other food: if you're allergic to peanuts, don't eat them. If you're allergic to shellfish, don't eat them. If you're allergic to bananas, don't eat them. If you're lactose-intolerant, don't drink milk unless you really like the taste and want to add lactase enzyme.

I do agree that Americans in particular eat way too much red meat, but I think some people give dairy a hard time when I don't think it's that much of a problem compared to many other things. Most adults don't drink a lot of milk anyway; usually "dairy" for adults means eggs, cheese, yogurt, etc. I don't see the health problems with dairy the way I see with red meat either. For improving public health, we should instead be reducing how much red meat people eat, plus also reducing or eliminating stuff like HFCS, refined sugars, refined flour, alcohol, etc.

>One solution would be measures to increase prices but that is a political minefield.

What they should do is just eliminate the tax breaks that unhealthy industries enjoy.

[hanniabu]

> One solution would be measures to increase price, but that is a political minefield.

It's only a political minefield because of corporate influence (dictation?) in politics.

[aaron695]

> One solution would be measures to increase prices but that is a political minefield.

What's another solution?

People will keep slaves if it's legal.

Stopping the use of tax payer dollars to help people eat meat seems not that much of a minefield compared too?

[e12e]

> There is no need to go from one extreme to the other.

Global warming due to greenhouse gas is a reason to go to the "other" extreme?

[kpU8efre7r]

Exactly this.

I will never go vegan or vegetarian but I mostly limit meat to only dinner and in smaller portions. My grocery bill is much smaller, it's healthier, and better for the environment overall.

Pushing a full-blown switch to veganism as the only solution is not pragmatic.

[arethuza]

Make much higher welfare standards for farm animals a requirement - making meat much more expensive, reducing consumption.

Sounds like a win win to me.

[sschueller]

And if you don't want to wait for the government to require this you can already start today.

Buy only locally farmed organic meat. Don't go to fast food places or restaurants that don't specifically declare that their meat is organic and local.

[Japhy_Ryder]

> Buy only locally farmed organic meat.

No. Don't buy meat. Buy beans. Buy tofu. Hell, buy Beyond Burgers. We don't need meat. It's bad for the planet, bad for your health and it goes without saying, bad for the animals.

[sschueller]

A Beyond Burger is not exactly good for your health but I would agree with buying items other than meat is better.

[markstos]

Agreed.

[mklarmann]

Trouble with organic is that those cows live longer, hence cause about 60% more Methan emissions, till they are slaughtered.

[tom_mellior]

> Trouble with organic is that those cows live longer

Interesting. Do you have a source? I don't see a good reason for this off the top of my head.

[dagw]

At a guess cows that are grass fed and not given growth hormones grow much slower and thus take longer to reach 'slaughtering' weight.

[tom_mellior]

Good point, thanks. The 60% number cited above does seem oddly specific, like it would come from a concrete source. Though as others in this thread have pointed out, methane seems to be less of an issue than it's sometimes made out to be.

[saagarjha]

Or just reduce your meat consumption.

[SmellyGeekBoy]

Speaking as someone who took the same stance as the commenter you're replying to, reduced meat consumption was indeed a side effect in my case without it being a conscious choice - mainly due to cost and inconvenience.

[olakease]

I think that is a good point. Also taxing "especially unfriendly environment products" would be great

[Sharlin]

Yeah. Modern factory farming practices are the reason why meat has become so cheap that its consumption per capita has at least tripled since the 50s.

[est31]

I agree. Few years back I bought some tofu sausages to try out how they taste. They tasted interesting but not like real sausages. Definitely not a good replacement. Even if I made myself eat them because of moral reasons, ignoring how they taste, many people would still avoid them. As long as meat tastes better than its alternatives, people will use it. We need to bring good meat alternatives to the masses. The theoretical advantage that artificial meat has is the lower amount of resources needed. Over time, because of this it can get much cheaper than real meat, at least if you don't factor in skewing of the market due to government subsidies. Then, if they truly have comparable tastes, people will naturally choose those alternatives.

This seems like the best strategy: If you force people to become vegan by law without giving good alternatives, you just make them angry at people who want to stop climate change. If you nicely ask them, some will switch but most won't. So I believe the best way forward is to invest into meat alternative startups and help them make their product as widely used and as cheap as possible.

[_0w8t]

Meat taste comes mostly from salt and souses. People who tried home-made sausages or grilled meat without any of those complained that it tasted like nothing. The problem with tofu sausages is that one just cannot add that much salt as to meat without making it feel too salty.

That acquired taste can be reset if for 2-4 weeks one avoids any product with added salt or sugar. Then tofu and many other products including plain meat without any additives will taste much better.

[LegitShady]

Impossible Foods directly disagrees with you (they say it comes from heme) and they have food scientists working for them.

Tofu dogs never taste like meat, ever. If you wait 2-4 weeks you're just creating a new habit, not approximating meat in any way.

Your comment, while potentially a healthy choice, certainly isn't an accurate description of meat taste. And meat eaters everywhere can recognize this because we have all tried the other products and it doesn't taste close, even after 2-4 weeks.

[rowanG077]

This is simply not true. I often it "raw" meat without adding salt or any sauce. There are some meats which taste pretty to close to nothing but this isn't even close to the case for most meats.

[_0w8t]

There is a famous recipe of winning a cocking competition. Just add more salt and sugar. So for quite a few people that defines a taste. But if for some reasons one do not exposed to that, then I suppose food without salt or sugar tastes normally.

[LegitShady]

you can repeat it as often as you want, its not true. You're pretending meat is water and doesn't have anything of its own to flavor it, and that's just not true.

You won't convince people by lying to them about the flavor of things you want them to buy. They'll label you a liar and move on.

[rowanG077]

Something tasting better is not the same thing as the original tasting like nothing. Meat with good seasoning tastes better then no seasoning but that has absolutely nothing to do with you claiming meat tastes like nothing.

[radicalbyte]

I know this saying. It also includes fat: butter for sweet and lard for savory.

[fulafel]

Tofu sausages are indeed terrible. Try seitan, quorn or some other kind that has a bit more effort put into it.

[mklarmann]

Our studies have shown, that about 10% are first movers (willing to give up benefits, to become climate friendly eaters) and 80% will go with the default when it is acceptable. The last 10% would still need to be coerced actively by some kind of restriction.

[est31]

10% is a lot. It's enough to swing an election. And no idea what the 80% would think. Also, I'm interested in global solutions, not ones that are effective in one country only. Globally, there are varying degrees of support for fighting climate change. Especially third world countries want growth and say it's the responsibility of developed economies to fight it because we have polluted so much historically. The goal is to make it impossible for Bolsonaro to sell his meat to any country in the world.

[andrenth]

How about we make it impossible for Trump or Merkel or Abe or Xi Jinping to sell their coal-powered production to any country in the world?

The question is rhetorical and is meant to show that 1) this proposal is not a “global solution”, as punishing a single country would hardly make any difference; and 2) you’re personifying a country’s exports, associating them to an administration you disagree ideologically with, to make it sound evil, and that is not rational nor productive.

[est31]

I just meant Bolsonaro as an example. Part of the goals of his government is to expand the meat industry and people in that industry love him. This has nothing to do with disagreeing or not disagreeing with him.

[trymas]

TL;DR: In my opinion meat analogues will not convert meat-eaters to vegetarians, problem is that switching to vegetarian diet requires rather big cultural change on our eating traditions.

I hear where are you coming from, though IMHO it's a problem with lack of knowledge/tradition/culture of producing vegetarian/vegan meals.

If you would say that you're vegetarian to my grandparents, they'd imagine that you eat vegetable salad all the time, with occasional baked potatoes for hot meal, they cannot imagine a meatless meal.

From my experience people tend to think that there must be a 1 to 1 replacement for meat foods: steaks, sausages, cutlets, burgers, meatballs, etc.

IMHO usually great vegetarian dishes (tasty, easy to make, not expensive, etc.) are mostly different set from meat dishes. It requires a cultural shift, which is insanely hard to change in general western population, where it's common and expected to have ham/bacon sandwich for breakfast, meatballs and spaghetti for lunch, steak for dinner, and beef burger or ribs on a bbq on a weekend.

You need a completely different set of dishes to change that meat eating tradition and IMO tofu sausages, cheap soy steaks and other meat analogues will not convert meat-eaters to vegetarians (fingers crossed for Impossible meat projects to change that).

Anecdotal example from the same thread on Indian vegetarian cuisine: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20652404

P.S. I very much agree with you on this:

> The theoretical advantage that artificial meat has is the lower amount of resources needed. Over time, because of this it can get much cheaper than real meat, at least if you don't factor in skewing of the market due to government subsidies.

Subsidies are really skewing prices of animal vs plant based products.

Where I am from pork is around 5-6€/kg, chicken 3.5-5€/kg, beef 10-30€/kg, milk 0.5-1€/l.

Whereas soy-almond milk 1.5-3€/l, soy meat analogues 5-15€/kg, mushrooms 3-15€/kg, etc.

There is no substantial price difference (mostly), which is spectacular to me. How it's possible to sell 1 kilo of chicken breast for 3.5€ is spectacular to me, when freaking beans cost around 3-4€/kg. How do they grow that chicken, when it's clear as a day that it requires probably an order of magnitude more resources compared to growing beans. I wouldn't even go how government is bending backwards for milk producers with tax incentives to keep prices "competitive", and I have no idea how pork is not 20-50€/kg, when every other year there's some disease, which requires to kill and destroy all pigs in farms in 500km radius.

[est31]

> You need a completely different set of dishes to change that meat eating tradition and IMO tofu sausages, cheap soy steaks and other meat analogues will not convert meat-eaters to vegetarians (fingers crossed for Impossible meat projects to change that).

This is exactly what I was reffering to. The current alternatives are not motivating enough for people to switch, but with good meat alternatives like impossible/beyond meat we should see trend changes.

It feels to me that the approach "just change your culture" has been tried out and has mostly failed because most people in the west have not switched. It requires a lot of political/moral conviction for people to switch. Good meat replacements will I think change this and make it easier for people to eat less meat while keeping their culture.

[mjlangiii]

I agree that people think you need meat alternatives because they lack the knowledge of how to make a plant based meal.

I agree with GP that most people don't care what a meatless meal could look like, culturally they just want meat each meal and will only consider an "impossible" substitute.

If we must change our impact on the environment, maybe it doesn't matter that people have a cultural desire to wait on impossible standards for substitutes and to continue harming the environment in the process. I don't know how important it is to change now, but if it critical then I'd be fine with something like rationing meat or some creative ideas towards forcing drastic change.

Also, maybe your grandparents can't imagine meat only once a week, but my grandparents certainly can, not because of current habits but from the great depression. They grew up on farms and had animals but they had more plants and usually ate the plants, only rarely they would slaughter animals for meat. Most meals were plants and that was the most normal thing in the world.

I assume meat at every meal is an extremely recent phenomenon and I think culturally we can easily move on from it, if we take the necessary measures.

[bluntfang]

Thanks for this well thought out comment. It's sad that it's getting downvoted. I agree that the replacement strategy isn't going to get us anywhere. It's a novelty. It's like people going on fad diets. They'll do it for a few months, feel accomplished, and backslide into their old habits. Going plant-based is a lifestyle change, it's something to own and be proud of, just like having a healthy workout routine.

[tom_mellior]

The spaghetti example is weird since you can already get pasta with lots of different sauces, with vegetarian options easily available.

[nkozyra]

> I don't think people will stop consuming meat if you ask them nicely.

Illuminating the moral quandary of meat consumption helps. It worked for me. Nobody had to ask me nicely, they just needed to help me to think about it and be self-reflective.

Even if you believe there to be ethical meat consumption (a notion I find dubious in modern life), people can reduce consumption and have a big impact. Modern commercial meat and dairy production is a horrible process and most people are so insulated from it that you get used to thinking meat is just this product that comes from a factory.

[corodra]

But most people don't see a general ethical issue with eating meat. We are omnivores after all. Hell, our hunter gatherer ancestors ate more meat than we do. Though, higher quality. It's the same with seeing a wolf eat a deer. Think they care? Same with a chimp finally catching a monkey and eating it (now those are horrifying videos to see, especially since chimps love eating monkeys). Snake to a mouse. Fox to a hare. Cat to a bird. Shark to a seal. Cheetah to a gazelle. Osprey to a fish. At that, a lot of herbivores also kill and eat other animals (ground nesting birds being the popular victim). Mostly for the calcium in their bones. But still.

But if broccoli could scream would you stop eating it? Circle of life. Just the way it is.

However I do agree, there are a lot of commercial farming practices that need to be ended. Even if it means higher prices.

[ppseafield]

A lot of people have a problem with eating dog meat.

Wolves that eat deer don't also breed them to the point where they contribute to climate change. Hunter gatherer folk don't breed them to a point where they are a significant factor in climate change.

As carnivores wolves don't really have a choice to not eat meat. You do, though. With a couple of different choices at the supermarket or simply ordering different choices on the menu, you can help cut down our global emissions.

[hombre_fatal]

> A lot of people have a problem with eating dog meat.

It's now illegal in USA.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/09/13/eati...

Though I don't think it should be illegal unless slaughtering other animals is illegal too. I think our disgust with the idea of slaughtering dogs highlights our arbitrary ethical inconsistencies when it comes to eating meat.

[corodra]

To be fair, a lot of western civilizations consider dogs to be a higher life form than people.

Hunter gatherers ended up doing that once they figured it out. Civilization didn't magical come about. Hunter gatherers decided to start animal husbandry as a way to keep a surplus food supply. Then they became "civilized".

I heard that choice arguement before. No. I've done the vegan diet for about 1.5 years. That's when depression, anxiety, bone and muscle problems popped up. My bloodwork was shit and I felt like doom and gloom. I snuck off from my girlfriend, who forced me into it, with a friend and he peer pressured me to drink a glass of milk and eat a steak. I did shit myself silly that night, but it felt like I was actually awake and the brain fog was gone. We broke up a few months later because I made a lovely red thai curry with murdered chicken instead of tofu.

By the way, look up how many ground nesting birds and rabbits die during grain and soybean harvesting. Those combines are just pure murder.

Don't you think the current age of high depression and high anxiety is oddly correlated to the recent rise of "meat bad, tofu good", is a bit interesting? So no, I don't have a choice. From personal experience. Difference is, I never made existential excuses for the depression, anxiety, fatigue and brain fog. I did it for tail...which really wasn't worth it.

[ppseafield]

> By the way, look up how many ground nesting birds and rabbits die during grain and soybean harvesting. Those combines are just pure murder.

Most soybeans grown are consumed by livestock [0]. A lot of wheat is also fed to livestock [1]. We'd need a lot less if we as humans ate it directly instead of eating the animals that eat it.

I don't know what your diet was like, but this is not my experience (7 years in), and it is the position of the American Dietetic Association that vegan diets, when planned well, are healthy [2].

Now, let's say that even with good planning, you are still unhealthy on a vegan diet. That does not mean you couldn't be healthy on a vegetarian diet, or a diet that has drastically reduced meat consumption. The less meat we eat, the better for the environment.

[0] https://www.drovers.com/article/usb-promotes-us-soybean-meal...

[1] https://news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-m...

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

[AnIdiotOnTheNet]

Circle of life, nature and all that. You know what else is natural? Rape. Our ancestors practiced a lot of rape.

Just because it is "natural" doesn't make it right. Nature is a cruel bitch, remember.

[nkozyra]

> But most people don't see a general ethical issue with eating meat.

Again, this is in the scenario where we accept meat consumption is indisputably ethical. The way we get our meat is arguably a much bigger problem.

> But if broccoli could scream would you stop eating it?

Yes?

[corodra]

If all fruits and vegetables screamed and all animals scream, what would you eat?

If you're going to say starve to death, ha! The one thing westerners underestimate is starving and what it does to you. See how long you can go without eating. I've done a 5 day fast, with intents for a 10 day. Yes, I failed on that.

Take a wild guess what you crave the most. And it ain't plant fiber. Its muscle fiber. We live in the land of plenty that allows choices. Part of the exact problem we are running into. It's easy to say meat bad when you get fruits, veg and grain imported to you. Stuff you didn't really work to get. Because, out of personal experience, farming is hard ass work. And I dare anyone to try zero emissions large scale farming. Grab a scythe and harvest grain. Have fun with that.

What I'm getting to, it's always been a fact of life. It takes less effort to raise pigs and live off their flesh than it is to take care of a few acres of grain, veg and fruit.

What I can't stand, people not in the agriculture business or lifestyle pretending to be the ultimate authority. Grow all your own food, then you can have an opinion. Until then, don't pretend like you know what you're talking about. It's easy for anyone to wave their hand and say "everyone should live in this method because I say so".

"But if I spend all my time farming, I wont have time to do xyz"

Yea, that's the reason why our farming systems are as they are.

[nkozyra]

> If all fruits and vegetables screamed and all animals scream, what would you eat?

This is a red herring, though. They don't.

> It takes less effort to raise pigs and live off their flesh than it is to take care of a few acres of grain, veg and fruit.

This is dubious, but my point is not that I farm, but that I find commercial farms more ethical than commercial meat production.

[Kaiyou]

How would you survive if everything eadible could scream? Also, not sure why the screaming part is important. Plants are alive, too and they do feel pain. They just can't express this, similar to autists.

[AnIdiotOnTheNet]

You'd still choose plants, because otherwise you're eating animals that themselves must feed on plants. Even from a coldly mathematical perspective you cause less suffering eating plants than animals.

[Kaiyou]

Wouldn't you then have to eat predators, so they can't kill other animals? Predators are guilty of causing suffering, plants are innocent.

[nkozyra]

> How would you survive if everything eadible could scream?

That would certainly change the conversation. But given that there is dubious support for plants "feeling" pain in a sentient way, I don't see much reason to entertain it.

That said, my diet is mostly fruit, nuts and seeds anyway.

[Kaiyou]

There's dubious support for animals "feeling" pain in a sentient way, too. I can't see why your empathy stops at plants.

[luckylion]

> Nobody had to ask me nicely, they just needed to help me to think about it and be self-reflective.

My theory is that you have to be ready / have to already, deep down, made that decision and then just needed a little push. Since this is a major topic in many societies with vegetarians and vegans proselytizing, I doubt that the majority of meat eaters aren't aware - they just don't come to the same conclusions or like it too much to quit.

[matz1]

>Even if you believe there to be ethical meat consumption (a notion I find dubious in modern life

Why is that dubious ? Ethics is personal. For me, consuming meat is ethical. Unless I'm forced to not eat meat then I won't stop.

[nkozyra]

> Ethics is personal

You may want to consider the broader implications of using this reasoning.

[matz1]

which broader implications you are concerned with ?

[hombre_fatal]

Your post from two days ago is an example:

> While i understand it sucks for you but for many people factory including me, factory farming is awesome and animal suffering is not important at all.

A rapist could make a similar case about how awesome the vagina feels. That the woman doesn't like it is not all that important. If you think about it, it's just some body parts touching, women really blow it out of proportion. And hey, animals do it. Why should the government limit my freedoms?

For some reason, meat consumption (i.e. slaughtering, factory farming, etc.) is one of the only topics where it's more or less socially acceptable to say "well, I like it, and that's all I care about. Ethics are personal btw."

[matz1]

>Why should the government limit my freedoms?

Government consist of people, because to this group of people, its in their best interest, its ethical for them to not allow rape.

Does the government care about this rapist freedom ? No, in their perspective its wrong.

So whichever side that can force other to comply (persuasively or physically) get to decide the ethics.

In the case of rape, the government get to decide whether you can rape.

[nkozyra]

Individual ethics being absolute.

[the_gastropod]

Absolutely! I think you hit the nail on the head. I went to an Israeli restaurant the other day, and (I'm guessing?) all the meat was kosher (read: expensive). Their menu prices seemed to be exactly how they should be. Vegetarian options were in the ~$7 range, and meat dishes were in the $35 range. This kind of pricing still makes meat dishes accessible to anyone that wants them, but gently nudges behavior in a more sustainable direction.

[TheBeardKing]

I hate when I go to Qdoba and the same bowl with Impossible meat is $9.99, while beef or chicken is $7.99. So now I have to pay more and eat less healthy?

[saagarjha]

I’m sure the vegetarian bowl without meat substitutes is cheaper.

[uxcolumbo]

Can you point me to some sources that say plant=based meat is less healthy than animal based meat?

[TheBeardKing]

Nutritionists vary on the following aspects, as the research isn't definitive, so I'm not going to give an opinion, just list the facts: the new meat alternatives have less protein, more sodium, more carbs, and more saturated fat. Take that as you will.

[nexensis]

That's not entirely true - veganism has made massive strides in the last few years simply because more information is becoming available about the environmental, ethical and (arguably) health issues surrounding our heavy meat consumption.

Millions of people are already voluntarily reducing their consumption and now virtually every restaurant in the UK has vegan options, making it easier for more people to switch.

I live in the outskirts of a relatively small, low-income industrial city and there are signs outside small shops and restaurants everywhere promoting their new vegan menus. A traditional pub near me has no fewer than 14(!) plant-based main courses.

I'd love to see tax incentives that reflect the damage that the meat and dairy industry are doing (ending the massive government subsidies would be a good start), however the changes I've seen in the UK give me hope that the grassroots level can sway public opinion without forcing people to change via legislation.

[hannob]

Local perception versus global reality: Meat consumption is still growing.

This can easily get clouded if you live in a place where you feel a new vegan place opens all the time. But this is very unevenly distributed. The UK is a place where vegan eating is strong, likewise Germany, Sweden and certainly a few other places. But even in very similar countries also in middle Europe - e.g. Denmark, France - vegetarianism is still very unusual.

[blunte]

Sadly, I think the only thing that will make a big impact in changing people's consumption will be related to antibiotic resistant mass-contamination events.

A few back to back meat recalls in the US got me to try vegetarianism 8 years ago. The animal welfare element only developed after I started learning about the new diet I was on.

It also helps to promote stories of very healthy vegetarians (especially pro athletes). My favorites were Carl Lewis, Herschel Walker, and Venus Williams. There are many more out there.

The key is to find decent, not too complex recipes. Dropping a slab of meat on the grill is so easy and results in such a tasty primary component of a meal; but making an interesting vegetarian meal requires more effort (at first). Once you know some good recipes, you get to the point where the only time you miss meat is when you're at a festival and you smell barbeque :).

[jazzabeanie]

From the article: “But it would indeed be beneficial, for both climate and human health, if people in many rich countries consumed less meat, and if politics would create appropriate incentives to that effect.”

[dqh]

For the most part I now only eat meat, eggs, cheese, some nuts, and non-starchy vegetables. Mostly meat, and mostly very fatty meat like Pork belly. At 40 years old i've never been healthier as an adult - I don't buy the argument that meat is bad for you.

[buckthundaz]

Same here. People should experiment for themselves. Give a 30-Day meat-based diet a try.

http://meatheals.com/ https://justmeat.co/

[uxcolumbo]

Check out pcrm.org for some medical arguments why it's bad for you.

But even if you think it's not bad for you, it's bad for:

- the environment - bad for people having to work in slaughterhouses killing and gutting animals all day - bad for the animal

[lm28469]

Informing people might work for some [0]. That's how I reduced my consumption by 90%. If you truly want to do good and people are able to inform you that X is bad then you'll do your best to stop doing X.

Also, good meat is expensive and cheap meat taste like shit so it's a good move for your wallet.

[0] growing amount of people saying "I want to fight climate change but can't do anything myself"

[dkersten]

Shift subsidies from meat to vegetables perhaps.

[glastra]

Which subsidies is meat getting? The ones that go to the agriculture industry responsible for feed?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy#United_St...

[dkersten]

Sure, why not?

From the same wikipedia page, a bit above what you linked, there's also this chart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Meat_Atlas_2014_subsidies... showing how many billions are spent on animal product subsidies.

Unfortunately I had no luck finding the actual OECD reports, though (aside from the " Agricultural Policy Monitoring and Evaluation 2019" report, but that seems to just compare each country to the global average, rather than talking about different types of subsidies)

[glastra]

"[...] animal products and feed", straight from the image. Sadly, no distinction. I would assume that it's mostly subsidies to feed. I am unable to find any sources on subsidies to meat directly.

I'm all for removing subsidies to monoculture agriculture.

[dkersten]

> I am unable to find any sources on subsidies to meat directly.

Yeah, I searched around a bit (even outside of the US) and I'm having difficulty finding any proper data to back up or refute it. That's a pity, would have been nice to know either way. The best I found was data on subsidies given to individual farmers in my country (I'm not in the US), but unless I scrape the site and aggregate and categorise the data, its not really useful (and doing that is too much work for me).

> I'm all for removing subsidies to monoculture agriculture.

Absolutely. I don't even mind animal products receiving subsidies, I'm not vegetarian and certainly not vegan, but I do hope that non-animal products get a large chunk of the subsidy pie, personally.

[chrisco255]

Corn, wheat and soy are the monoculture agriculture.

[leethargo]

I heard that corn farming is subsidized in the US, which is also used to feed cows?

[mparramon]

This is starting to happen in the EU already: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49281111

[jdc]

Methane tax IMO

[elktea]

"Combining isotopic evidence from ground surface measurements with the newly calculated fire emissions, the team showed that about 17 teragrams per year of the increase is due to fossil fuels, another 12 is from wetlands or rice farming, while fires are decreasing by about 4 teragrams per year. The three numbers combine to 25 teragrams a year -- the same as the observed increase"[1]

The 'cows farting' story is not a major methane source.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/nasa-led-study-solves-a-met...

[hannob]

What you're citing here is numbers for previously unexplained emissions, not total emissions.

I.e. there was major uncertainty that scientists were measuring more methane than they expected, and these scientists tried to figure out where it comes from.

The only thing your argument says is that for methane emissions from meat production apparently scientists had a pretty good idea about the numbers.

[dkersten]

I don't have a source at hand, so grain of salt and all that... I read somewhere that grass-fed cows also produce a lot less methane than corn-fed cows.

[glastra]

Better dial down on the fiber intake, then!

[C1sc0cat]

And have regular blood tests and take your vitamins to keep your biochemistry at the right state.

[digitalsushi]

Whenever I worry about someone bioengineering a plague for humans to save the planet, the pragmatist in me realizes they could just do the same against cows and only end up being remembered as half evil.

[academic_nimrod]

Got it - when democratic means don't work, switch to coercion and extortion.

Wonder why people have such negative views of environmentalists.

[CommieDetector]

What gives you the right to control what people eat?

[hannob]

We already do that.

You can't legally eat the meat of other humans in most (all? not sure) countries. You're not allowed to buy the meat of certain animals in certain countries, due to cultural norms (dogs) or due to protection of certain species.

It's an absolutely normal thing that laws regulate or forbid things that have negative effects on society.

[dkersten]

If it damages the world or society, then why not? Would you say that I have the right to eat pets? Humans? Animals (or plants) that are on the brink of extinction?

There are plenty of valid reasons to restrict what people are allowed to eat.

[chrisco255]

By pets what do you mean? Is it ethical for me to have a cat, when cats are obligate carnivores that not only have to eat meat but also independently kill billions of birds a year? Is it not okay for me to eat a chicken but it's perfectly ok to own a python or boa and feed it live mice?

Cows are not killing the planet. They are one of the few things you can raise that doesn't require pesticides or chemical fertilizers. They and other ruminants are important parts of grassland ecosystems.

The megafauna that existed on planet Earth just 200, 500, and 12,000 years ago were far more numerous than the number of livestock cows today.

This reductionist mindset about the environment that doesn't even attempt to quantify trade offs or factor for the important role livestock plays in crop production is beyond tiresome.

We also happen to need meat for healthy brain function. We need lots of Omega-3 fatty acids the kind that animal foods only provide and plants are not as healthy as they're made out to be. They have tons of oxalates, phytic acids, and inflammatory agents that harm human health in large doses. Not to mention the absurd amount of carbs we already consume from plant based foods.

[dkersten]

> This reductionist mindset about the environment that doesn't even attempt to quantify trade offs or factor for the important role livestock plays in crop production is beyond tiresome.

I'm not the one who wrote the UN report on climate change that recommends reducing meat consumption. Maybe take it up with the UN instead.

> Not to mention the absurd amount of carbs we already consume from plant based foods.

Speak for yourself. I eat a plant-heavy low-carb diet (I do eat fish, eggs and meat too).

But... you're not replying to what I was saying and that is that there are perfectly valid reasons to restrict what people are allowed to eat. I didn't say anything about not eating cows or whatever, you took my comment out of context, which was simply "There are plenty of valid reasons to restrict what people are allowed to eat." The first paragraph was simply giving examples of reasons that various people might have to do so.

[buckthundaz]

> I'm not the one who wrote the UN report on climate change that recommends reducing meat consumption. Maybe take it up with the UN instead.

Appeal to authority.

> There are plenty of valid reasons to restrict what people are allowed to eat.

Name one. Sounds very tyrannical to me.

[dkersten]

> Appeal to authority.

Uhhh.. the person implied that I was saying cows are killing the planet, I simply stated that I never said that, the UN did, so take it up with them instead of me. Why are you are you taking what I said out of context?

> Name one.

Are you just replying without reading the thread? My very first message named a few. I never said they were good reasons, but they are reasons nonetheless.

[perfunctory]

> Cows are not killing the planet. They are one of the few things you can raise that doesn't require pesticides or chemical fertilizers.

True in theory. Not in practice. Unfortunately most beef we eat doesn't come from grass fed animals. And if we were to convert the entire industry to grassing only, we wouldn't have enough land to produce the same quantity of meat. Which would imply exactly reduced meat consumption.

[chrisco255]

Yes it does. Beef cows spend the majority of their lives in pasture. Very little of it is spent on a feed yard. It's not even always profitable to send a beef cow to a feed yard for finishing so it's not always done. Even there, most of their diet is a mix of hay and grain. Think of it, grass is free while grain must be paid for, so it doesn't even make economic sense. The manure collected and composted at feed yards serve as fertilizer for crops. And no, we don't eat enough meat. We are eating way too many carbs and artificial foods that are destroying our health. Meat is one of the healthiest things you can eat.

[magduf]

>Is it ethical for me to have a cat, when cats are obligate carnivores that not only have to eat meat but also independently kill billions of birds a year?

Properly-kept housecats stay inside and don't kill any birds. I suspect the vast majority of those bird deaths are caused by feral cats, not pets (though of course, most ferals probably are or descend from pets that were abandoned or escaped). Our society could be doing a better job with dealing with feral animals like this, because they are bad for ecosystems; they're basically invasive predators.

Bird-killing aside, the environmental impact of pets is actually pretty staggering. It's probably worse for dogs too, since they're much larger animals on average.

>The megafauna that existed on planet Earth just 200, 500, and 12,000 years ago were far more numerous than the number of livestock cows today.

Citation needed. Yes, there were millions of buffalo on the American plains 1000+ years ago, but a quick Google search shows there's over 94 million cows in America today. Also, from what I've read, there are more plains now than in the past, because forests were destroyed by humans to make grasslands.

[matz1]

It's depends on which society. It certainly damage the society who perfer to eat meat.

Right is something that you or someone else has to fight for it. If you prefer to eat meat you have to fight for your right, likewise with the non meat eater.

[mklarmann]

The same people who currently hold the right to destroy this planet and make it uninhabitable for all future generations.

[perfunctory]

Do you mean we should ban McDonald's ads and food marketing in general? Because that sounds like a great idea.

Which makes me think. I wonder how much meat would people eat naturally, if they were note exposed to an image of a BigMac on every corner.

[Nyandalized]

I believe the government already has the right and power to control what people eat. People form the government, and people (ideally) choose the people to hold that power.

In part I, too have the right to control what people eat through voting.

[jfnixon]

Great, that means we can vote to require meat at every meal. Don't like it? Too bad, so sad, we have the right to control what you eat.

[matz1]

Yes, its going to be not easy but at very least if you are meat eater, you should fight for the law to ban meat to ever become reality.

[saagarjha]

You cannot force people to eat something.

[CommieDetector]

Then you can not force people _not_ to eat something.

[gbear605]

There’s an established precedent in (American) law that it’s generally okay to forbid an action but it’s not okay to mandate an action. For example, you can stop people from driving without a license, but you can’t make everyone get a license.

[C1sc0cat]

Which dystopia do you live in then a Marxist approach isn't going to work.

[matz1]

Like with everything else, power and influence. If the meat eater somehow let the vegan to win then well they get to control what people eat.

[mattacular]

Mother nature.

[srean]

Apparently the Indian way is death by lynching on suspicion of cow slaughter with govt doing a 'wink wink' I was looking the other way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_vigilante_violence_in_Indi...

The govt's behavior is not motivated by climate.