[nkozyra]

> I don't think people will stop consuming meat if you ask them nicely.

Illuminating the moral quandary of meat consumption helps. It worked for me. Nobody had to ask me nicely, they just needed to help me to think about it and be self-reflective.

Even if you believe there to be ethical meat consumption (a notion I find dubious in modern life), people can reduce consumption and have a big impact. Modern commercial meat and dairy production is a horrible process and most people are so insulated from it that you get used to thinking meat is just this product that comes from a factory.

[corodra]

But most people don't see a general ethical issue with eating meat. We are omnivores after all. Hell, our hunter gatherer ancestors ate more meat than we do. Though, higher quality. It's the same with seeing a wolf eat a deer. Think they care? Same with a chimp finally catching a monkey and eating it (now those are horrifying videos to see, especially since chimps love eating monkeys). Snake to a mouse. Fox to a hare. Cat to a bird. Shark to a seal. Cheetah to a gazelle. Osprey to a fish. At that, a lot of herbivores also kill and eat other animals (ground nesting birds being the popular victim). Mostly for the calcium in their bones. But still.

But if broccoli could scream would you stop eating it? Circle of life. Just the way it is.

However I do agree, there are a lot of commercial farming practices that need to be ended. Even if it means higher prices.

[ppseafield]

A lot of people have a problem with eating dog meat.

Wolves that eat deer don't also breed them to the point where they contribute to climate change. Hunter gatherer folk don't breed them to a point where they are a significant factor in climate change.

As carnivores wolves don't really have a choice to not eat meat. You do, though. With a couple of different choices at the supermarket or simply ordering different choices on the menu, you can help cut down our global emissions.

[hombre_fatal]

> A lot of people have a problem with eating dog meat.

It's now illegal in USA.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/09/13/eati...

Though I don't think it should be illegal unless slaughtering other animals is illegal too. I think our disgust with the idea of slaughtering dogs highlights our arbitrary ethical inconsistencies when it comes to eating meat.

[corodra]

To be fair, a lot of western civilizations consider dogs to be a higher life form than people.

Hunter gatherers ended up doing that once they figured it out. Civilization didn't magical come about. Hunter gatherers decided to start animal husbandry as a way to keep a surplus food supply. Then they became "civilized".

I heard that choice arguement before. No. I've done the vegan diet for about 1.5 years. That's when depression, anxiety, bone and muscle problems popped up. My bloodwork was shit and I felt like doom and gloom. I snuck off from my girlfriend, who forced me into it, with a friend and he peer pressured me to drink a glass of milk and eat a steak. I did shit myself silly that night, but it felt like I was actually awake and the brain fog was gone. We broke up a few months later because I made a lovely red thai curry with murdered chicken instead of tofu.

By the way, look up how many ground nesting birds and rabbits die during grain and soybean harvesting. Those combines are just pure murder.

Don't you think the current age of high depression and high anxiety is oddly correlated to the recent rise of "meat bad, tofu good", is a bit interesting? So no, I don't have a choice. From personal experience. Difference is, I never made existential excuses for the depression, anxiety, fatigue and brain fog. I did it for tail...which really wasn't worth it.

[ppseafield]

> By the way, look up how many ground nesting birds and rabbits die during grain and soybean harvesting. Those combines are just pure murder.

Most soybeans grown are consumed by livestock [0]. A lot of wheat is also fed to livestock [1]. We'd need a lot less if we as humans ate it directly instead of eating the animals that eat it.

I don't know what your diet was like, but this is not my experience (7 years in), and it is the position of the American Dietetic Association that vegan diets, when planned well, are healthy [2].

Now, let's say that even with good planning, you are still unhealthy on a vegan diet. That does not mean you couldn't be healthy on a vegetarian diet, or a diet that has drastically reduced meat consumption. The less meat we eat, the better for the environment.

[0] https://www.drovers.com/article/usb-promotes-us-soybean-meal...

[1] https://news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-m...

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

[AnIdiotOnTheNet]

Circle of life, nature and all that. You know what else is natural? Rape. Our ancestors practiced a lot of rape.

Just because it is "natural" doesn't make it right. Nature is a cruel bitch, remember.

[nkozyra]

> But most people don't see a general ethical issue with eating meat.

Again, this is in the scenario where we accept meat consumption is indisputably ethical. The way we get our meat is arguably a much bigger problem.

> But if broccoli could scream would you stop eating it?

Yes?

[corodra]

If all fruits and vegetables screamed and all animals scream, what would you eat?

If you're going to say starve to death, ha! The one thing westerners underestimate is starving and what it does to you. See how long you can go without eating. I've done a 5 day fast, with intents for a 10 day. Yes, I failed on that.

Take a wild guess what you crave the most. And it ain't plant fiber. Its muscle fiber. We live in the land of plenty that allows choices. Part of the exact problem we are running into. It's easy to say meat bad when you get fruits, veg and grain imported to you. Stuff you didn't really work to get. Because, out of personal experience, farming is hard ass work. And I dare anyone to try zero emissions large scale farming. Grab a scythe and harvest grain. Have fun with that.

What I'm getting to, it's always been a fact of life. It takes less effort to raise pigs and live off their flesh than it is to take care of a few acres of grain, veg and fruit.

What I can't stand, people not in the agriculture business or lifestyle pretending to be the ultimate authority. Grow all your own food, then you can have an opinion. Until then, don't pretend like you know what you're talking about. It's easy for anyone to wave their hand and say "everyone should live in this method because I say so".

"But if I spend all my time farming, I wont have time to do xyz"

Yea, that's the reason why our farming systems are as they are.

[nkozyra]

> If all fruits and vegetables screamed and all animals scream, what would you eat?

This is a red herring, though. They don't.

> It takes less effort to raise pigs and live off their flesh than it is to take care of a few acres of grain, veg and fruit.

This is dubious, but my point is not that I farm, but that I find commercial farms more ethical than commercial meat production.

[Kaiyou]

How would you survive if everything eadible could scream? Also, not sure why the screaming part is important. Plants are alive, too and they do feel pain. They just can't express this, similar to autists.

[AnIdiotOnTheNet]

You'd still choose plants, because otherwise you're eating animals that themselves must feed on plants. Even from a coldly mathematical perspective you cause less suffering eating plants than animals.

[Kaiyou]

Wouldn't you then have to eat predators, so they can't kill other animals? Predators are guilty of causing suffering, plants are innocent.

[nkozyra]

> How would you survive if everything eadible could scream?

That would certainly change the conversation. But given that there is dubious support for plants "feeling" pain in a sentient way, I don't see much reason to entertain it.

That said, my diet is mostly fruit, nuts and seeds anyway.

[Kaiyou]

There's dubious support for animals "feeling" pain in a sentient way, too. I can't see why your empathy stops at plants.

[luckylion]

> Nobody had to ask me nicely, they just needed to help me to think about it and be self-reflective.

My theory is that you have to be ready / have to already, deep down, made that decision and then just needed a little push. Since this is a major topic in many societies with vegetarians and vegans proselytizing, I doubt that the majority of meat eaters aren't aware - they just don't come to the same conclusions or like it too much to quit.

[matz1]

>Even if you believe there to be ethical meat consumption (a notion I find dubious in modern life

Why is that dubious ? Ethics is personal. For me, consuming meat is ethical. Unless I'm forced to not eat meat then I won't stop.

[nkozyra]

> Ethics is personal

You may want to consider the broader implications of using this reasoning.

[matz1]

which broader implications you are concerned with ?

[hombre_fatal]

Your post from two days ago is an example:

> While i understand it sucks for you but for many people factory including me, factory farming is awesome and animal suffering is not important at all.

A rapist could make a similar case about how awesome the vagina feels. That the woman doesn't like it is not all that important. If you think about it, it's just some body parts touching, women really blow it out of proportion. And hey, animals do it. Why should the government limit my freedoms?

For some reason, meat consumption (i.e. slaughtering, factory farming, etc.) is one of the only topics where it's more or less socially acceptable to say "well, I like it, and that's all I care about. Ethics are personal btw."

[matz1]

>Why should the government limit my freedoms?

Government consist of people, because to this group of people, its in their best interest, its ethical for them to not allow rape.

Does the government care about this rapist freedom ? No, in their perspective its wrong.

So whichever side that can force other to comply (persuasively or physically) get to decide the ethics.

In the case of rape, the government get to decide whether you can rape.

[nkozyra]

Individual ethics being absolute.