[acslater00]

This rings pretty true to me. I live in Manhattan, and my wife is a personal chef, so she has to be one of the world's foremost collectors of anecdotal grocery price data you'll ever meet.

She's noticed a lot of weird dissonances in the way people think about grocery pricing over the years I've known her. For example, despite its reputation, Whole Foods has some of the cheapest prices on staple pantry items in the city. Things like flour, sugar, eggs, butter, olive oil, milk, and rice, as well as many of the "365" branded packaged products are actually much cheaper than "low end" grocery stores like Gristedes or Key Food. Trader Joe's has a reputation as a high end grocery as well, but they have incredibly cheap produce and other perishables. If you go to Gristedes and buy a box of corn flakes you're going to spend $4-6. For that price you can buy 24 eggs! At Key Food you can buy pork chops for $2 / pound. Canned beans and other non-perishables can also be incredibly cheap. With the exception of the corn flakes, which - while delicious - is actually loaded with corn syrup - everything I just listed is perfectly healthy when prepared at home.

Anecdotally, my mother spends an absolute fortune on nasty weight watchers meals because she believes they are "healthier" than just cooking herself a piece of chicken and some broccoli. My sister will eat a $3 lara bar that is "made with real fruit!" instead of a 25c banana.

It doesn't surprise me that within the universe of packaged foods, people think that the expensive ones are healthier than the cheap ones. But I just wish people would figure out that within the universe of foods, the packaged ones are both more expensive and typically less healthy than cooking your own food.

[rz2k]

I believe that Whole Foods made a strategic decision to avoid large suppliers like Kraft Heinz and Procter & Gamble, because they have too little bargaining power with large companies. The same people who may have defaulted to picking whatever brands their parents or even grandparents chose, were willing to choose new brands in Whole Foods. Not only were the old brands missing from the shelves, but the friendly people working there all seemed to think these new brands were about treating your body like a temple.

In the case of these new brands, they probably meet the same sanitary standards most of the time, and may be more healthy or better for the environment a lot of the time. However, I am convinced that their biggest feature is being that it lets Whole Foods feel like it is as big as Walmart when its purchasing managers negotiate with their suppliers.

--

On another subject, while it may not help, Wolfram|Alpha lets you quickly approximate a consolidated "nutrition facts" for any recipe. It could be easy to compare to the weight watchers meal. For example:

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1%2F4+lb+chicken+breas...

[hfsktr]

Thank you so much for that link. I've been searching for every ingredient and having to guess at some and that is really helpful. I didn't realize you could do that.

[rz2k]

I find it difficult to find out the explicit operators in Wolfram|Alpha. Using '+' seems obvious once you see it, but it wasn't to me before. Adding modifiers, like "steamed broccoli" might improve the accuracy of some of the statistics, but it took me a while to even find out that "head of broccoli" confuses it, while "bunch of broccoli" does not.

[matwood]

I was just arguing with co-workers about WF the other day. I was trying to explain that for a lot of the staples (even some beers!) they were in fact cheaper and much higher quality. I do all of the grocery shopping and cooking in my house, so I know prices on certain things at the various stores around town. I had written off WF until going in one day on a whim, and I was pleasantly surprised.

Right now, my most cost effective yet high quality ingredient shopping trip consists of going to Walmart for anything in a package and WF for produce/fresh things.

[kuschku]

Btw, the reason Trader Joe's is so cheap: It belongs to ALDI Nord, the sibling company of ALDI Süd, which runs the US ALDI markets.

Founded by two brothers, the ALDI chains have the concept of insanely cheap products, but no rebates, no coupons, no extra - usually saving money by just rolling the entire pallet directly into the store from the truck, having no storage space, nor having to pay anyone to unload it.

[justinator]

Funnily, Trader Joes in Boulder, CO is not very cheap at all, and certainly not a place you can do regular shopping to get those essentials that anchor an entire week's worth of meals. To top that all, there's no booze to be bought!

The workers at this location are numerous, cheery and helpful; the store is well-put together, with large displays. Some items are cheaper, but mostly it just seems like boxed/frozen "health" food, that doesn't seem all that frugal to buy, so I pass on it.

Before this location was built, my friends would go to New Mexico to do Trader Joes runs, so I do believe other locations must be economically attractive enough to spend that sort of time/gas to get there.

It's just the local market I guess: there's many local boutique grocery brands in the area: Whole Foods, Vitamin Cottage, Sprouts, Luckys... It's either TJ is competing with them on price (they can be quite expensive...), or their competing on the much larger super markets, who are also raising their prices and bringing in luxury items, like pour-your-own-growler Kombucha.

It's sort of madne$$.

[rm_-rf_slash]

Aldi is insanely cheap, and I mean that literally: I feel as if I am insane to spend my money elsewhere. As much as I love Wegmans, those "helping hands" corralling shopping carts in the sprawling parking lots have to be paid, and it comes out of my purchase.

[kefka]

Ive also found that US Aldi is also carrying some Trader Joes products. I was quite thankful, given we do make a trek to the Trader Joes about 1:20 away. Our Aldi is 10 minutes away.

I've also found fresh foods, cheeses, some wines to be of really good quality. And if something's bad, they have a "replace+money back" guarantee - as in, 'were sorry you had to come back, here's your money and the goods for your hassle'.

[xherberta]

OK, but do think through how you might be better off with a little less in your account and the people around you having jobs, as opposed to having more in your account while unemployed grocery workers throw rocks at your shuttle service and vote in a ridiculous gov't.

But if you want to buy local beer and local socks and support local jobs in other ways with the extra $, coolio.

[rm_-rf_slash]

I'm from Ithaca. We don't have shuttle services or unemployed grocery workers throwing rocks or a ridiculous government, unless you find it ridiculous that our mayor literally walks the walk on reducing CO2 emissions by selling his car and having turned his dedicated parking space into a teeny tiny park with benches and potted plants.

You may be thinking of somewhere else.

[tacon]

Where are those social app systems that process your grocery receipts and show where the savings on things you buy are at the moment? I remember a Mixergy interview from years ago where a Techstars team was working on processing receipts to share, but then they pivoted. If they captured all the data and gave me back a detailed breakdown of what I bought in machine readable format (the stores aren't going to do that), I'd be happy if they used the collected data to rate stores on prices, rate my purchases on healthiness, etc. Basically, I want your wife's brain and memory in an app.

[matheweis]

A partner and I (failed when we) founded Groceree, an app that did almost exactly this. The biggest problem we were unable to solve was incentivizing users to use the app and give us the data. Users of smartphones tended to be well off and not interested in the savings. Less well off users that were interested in the savings had very busy lives and/or lacked the discipline to do the planning before shopping. Potential users would be excited about the idea but didn't want to follow through at scale.

Anyhow, there is another app that has come out since (Basket), that is very similar to what we wanted to build. They seem to have done better on the incentivization front.

Might check Basket out and see if it does what you want. (I have no relationship with them).

Incidentally, our data suggested that if you were willing to shop at 3 or more stores you could save on average more than 85% on your grocery bills... the savings are potentially huge.

[DiabloD3]

Thank you for what you did, even if you failed. I've been looking at an app for that for a long time, and even collect data if I had to, to participate.

[matheweis]

Ah, thanks! I still have all sorts of leftover technology from it, like a database of thousands and thousands of grocery stores all over the US, their physical locations and websites, etc. and no idea what to do with it...

Here is a link to Basket. My partner and I were simultaneously super bummed but also excited to see the idea realized: https://basketsavings.com/

[DiabloD3]

In the end, I don't think that company will survive. They only have an app for the iPhone, which is pretty much the minority of their target market.

[matheweis]

They have Android too, just not linked from their webpage: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.basketsavi...

[k-mcgrady]

>> Where are those social app systems that process your grocery receipts and show where the savings on things you buy are at the moment?

The major supermarkets in the UK did something like this (they might still do it). If you shopped online, after your order had been delivered you would receive an email telling you whether your shop would have been cheaper or more expensive at their biggest competitor and by how much. If your shop in Tesco for example worked out £3 more expensive than if you'd done the shop in ASDA they would refund you the difference or give you a coupon. The limitation was that it did not apply to own-brand items I believe.

The problem I think with a third party doing something like this is that it'll just lead to a price war. Supermarkets are able to squeeze their suppliers pretty hard and while you might save 10p on your milk some local farmer ends up totally screwed with no bargaining position.

[justinator]

Are these grocery stores you're comparing to also in Manhattan? If so, there may be other pressures at work to keep prices in most all stores high, with perhaps the boutique store (Whole Foods) being able to have slightly lower prices for strategic reasons. I've worked in a store that never, ever pulled a profit, but felt like more advertisement for another location that certainly did. I mean, you did mention the store by name, here.

The most expensive food I've ever bought were in small bodega stores (unhealthy food), or like the pantry of a camping place (where else am I going to?)

Your post piqued my interest with your price of 2 dozen eggss: $4-$6 seems on the steep end. Lots of prior HN discussion on chicken egg economics ;)

[dustinmr]

For what it's worth, I recently compared orders using Instacart between a Whole Foods and Publix (in Miami if it matters). I chose equivalent items from each (I.e., if I got the organic version, that's what I got at both stores). Whole Foods was about $3 cheaper on an $80 order.

It wasn't an exact comparison, as they don't always have the same products/weights, etc. But it was indicative of how I would buy at each store.

[dominotw]

>Whole Foods has some of the cheapest prices on staple pantry items in the city

But they price gouge you if you don't stick to these items. I am eating their small soup atm, which I bought at outrageous price of $8 . You have to put on blinders and stick to the script if you go to whole foods, there is a reason this place is mockingly called 'whole paycheck' .

[matwood]

> But they price gouge you if you don't stick to these items.

This is pretty much any grocery store. Margins in grocery are incredibly thin so they have to sell some things near cost to get people in, and then selling other things above to make some money.

[tootie]

Gristedes is a complete mystery to me. The one near me is incredibly expensive. The 24-hour convenience store is cheaper.

[avn2109]

Gristedes is awful and I shop there all the time. They survive by maximizing the quantity (proximity * selection). Though they cost the same as the bodega, they have more stuff and are just as close (right across the street from my apt). Ten minutes closer than Whole Foods, and sometimes that's enough to lure me in.

[kurthr]

I agree in CA, and if you follow their SPECIALS you can do even better... they explicitly price some things to be competitive, but I would guess that a lot of it is just that they are making their profit on the specialty items ($20 crackers) than on the bulk food or everyday staples.

There are full time moms who comparison shop at WholePaycheck, and they know it.

[maxerickson]

Branded Corn Flakes are nearly pure starch but contain 0 corn syrup (and not all that much sugar). It's just cooked corn.

[lintiness]

people pay for weight watchers because it systematically manages their caloric intake, not because they believe the food is healthy.

[crottypeter]

citation needed.

Maybe you mean people should ...

I have had people hopefully ask me "It must be healthy because it's weight watchers, mustn't it?" when the food in question was a chocolate mouse.

[ConceptJunkie]

Mice are pretty lean, you know.

[WalterSear]

Some people do.

[cgvgffyv]

What if you eat packaged foods because you're too scared of making yourself sick because you've missed something very obvious while cooking that everyone else knows about?

Are there any YouTube videos of paranoid cooking? ie they'd teach where to look to see if you've screwed up etc.

Asking for a friend.

[the_af]

Paranoid cooking as in "how can I be sure what I'm cooking isn't toxic"?

I started cooking relatively late in my life, and the lesson is: unless you're doing something strange, it's really hard to poison yourself by cooking. Also: real cooks improvise, they don't follow a recipe set in stone.

You can always screwup and cook something that doesn't taste nice (especially by overcooking), but if you mix and cook random vegetables, chicken, rice, etc, you'll generally have something edible and non-poisonous. If you follow an actual recipe it's even better, of course. Eventually you'll learn some tricks (e.g. sautéed onions go with everything and smell nice).

I suppose stay away from seafood or anything you're unsure of how (long) to cook.

[Gnewt]

I wonder if you might be approaching the problem from the wrong direction. In all likelihood, you're not going to make any grave mistakes -- you're just going to make food slightly below par a couple times until you hone in your cooking skills. It's probably worth practicing cooking some simple meals until that sense of paranoia diminishes rather than trying to cater to it.

(I honestly used to avoid cooking because I wasn't good at it -- the only thing to "fix" that was to start cooking, and now I feel comfortable with it and cook all the time)

[the_af]

Heh heh, I used to avoid cooking because I thought cooks followed a rigid set of instructions, and if they missed anything that meant the whole preparation became inedible (maybe that was the programmer in me!). Then my brother -- who's real good at cooking -- told me the truth: it's hard to screw up a meal. Beyond some basic tricks, he improvises. Exact quantities don't matter. Don't use too much salt (this is subjective and you get better at it), don't overcook (ditto), butter and oil may be unhealthy but make everything better, etc.

I'll never be a great cook, and I occasionally overcook something -- which is in my opinion the number one sin -- when I'm not paying attention, but I manage. Cooking doesn't scare me anymore.

[Gnewt]

This matches my experience! I thought there was a rigid set of instructions and that if I couldn't follow them perfectly I would ruin the meal. Definitely the programmer in me :). And definitely, in retrospect, a totally misguided notion.

[HeyLaughingBoy]

Thank you for posting this!

I've been cooking in one way or another since I was about 10 years old and this perspective has simply never occurred to me. And for the life of me I could never understand why people thought cooking was so difficult.

Suddenly a lot of that makes sense now :-)

[smileysteve]

I'm like your brother; I innately understand cause and effect when cooking; I can see something in a restaurant, and mimic it on the first try with reasonable results.

a fellow programmer shared that not everybody understands cooking like that, that the causal relationships, understanding of temperatures, or additions of flavors.

He was reading this book. "The Science of Cooking" https://www.amazon.com/Science-Cooking-Peter-Barham/dp/35406...

In a way, cooking is like coding; we can all learn through a bootcamp or tutorial, but for some of us it clicks really quickly.

[Eric_WVGG]

This is going to sound like it’s not directly addressing your concerns, but stay with me: watch Alton Brown’s old Food TV series "Good Eats".

I used to think cooking was this sort of mysterious voodoo with arbitrary rules, and could not (and still cannot) memorize a recipe to save my life. Good Eats changed everything.

Alton Brown had a background in children's television, and decided to apply that approach to a cooking show.* Instead of simply saying "this meal will taste great, here's how to make it," he goes into weird Sesame Street-style digressions into the science behind things like the "Mailard Reaction" (how the browned crust on a burger or steak happens and why it's delicious) or why different oils get used for different things.

Once the science, chemistry and physics of cooking started making sense to me, I quickly became a pretty goddamned good chef (if I do say so myself). I think this will have a similar effect on your fears — once you get how it all works you won't be afraid of fucking up.

After you've covered the basics with Alton, try http://www.cookingforengineers.com and Modernist Cuisine

* In fact, he didn't even know how to cook; he had the idea, took two years of classes, then made the pitch to the networks.

[rebuilder]

Most edibles in a supermarket you can just wolf down. Some things to consider:

-If you use dried beans, soak them overnight and boil them for an hour. Discard the water. You'll save yourself stomach pains this way.

-Do not eat uncooked wheat. Your stomach will thank you.

-Do not eat potatoes with green bits. They're a bit toxic.

-If the vacuum-sealed packaging meat comes in is starting to bulge, pick another package. The meat is releasing gases in the initial stages of spoiling. (Probably still fine to eat,cooked)

-Wash your vegetables. Soil bacteria can give you a bad time, although the risk isn't terribly high. In some countries, human excrement is still used for fertilization - this carries a risk of Hepatitis C and you want to heat the produce properly before consumption.

-If it smells off or tastes bad, don't eat it!

I can't think of anything else off the top of my head. This list is already full of "very unlikely to give you trouble" items as is. Have fun cooking!

[throwanem]

It's pretty hard to screw up, especially more than once. Here's how to avoid the 90% cases in food poisoning:

- Wash your hands.

- Wash your tools.

- Wash fruits and vegetables before chopping.

- Don't let meat other than whole beef sit at room temperature.

- Cook meat other than whole beef all the way through. Use a thermometer, not a rule of thumb.

- If in doubt, cook it another five minutes.

- Wash anything that touches raw meat other than whole beef before it touches anything else. This includes your hands.

- If in doubt, wash it again.

[nommm-nommm]

Don't wash raw chicken though.

[throwanem]

I mean, you can rinse it. Probably should, really. I hope I don't need to specify "don't use soap on food" in so many words...

[nommm-nommm]

No! You absolutely should not ever rinse raw chicken. It doesn't do anything except cross contaminate your entire kitchen!! There is really no reason to and very good reasons not to.

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/homehygiene/Pages/washing-chicken...

http://drexel.edu/dontwashyourchicken/

[throwanem]

Good to know!

[jdietrich]

As long as it's fresh and piping hot throughout, it's safe. If you're paranoid, buy a meat thermometer. The safe minimum temperatures are listed at the link below.

https://www.foodsafety.gov/keep/charts/mintemp.html

[smogcutter]

I think a meat thermometer is the best kitchen tool you can own, but folks should be advised that the "safe minimum" temperatures are (understandably) very conservative. The recommended 145 for pork, for example, is done. Anything higher will be overcooked and dry.

[cpenner461]

+1 on the Alton Brown recommendation from others.

A book that we've used a lot for ideas on cooking healthy and cheap meals is "Good and Cheap" by Leanne Brown. You can download the PDF for free from her site, or buy a hardcopy from several sites (I have no affiliation, just a happy buyer/reader/cook):

https://www.leannebrown.com/cookbooks/

It's based on trying to counter this very idea ... and has a lot of great ideas for what feels like "fancy" meals, but with pretty simple ingredients/instructions. Highly recommended if you are interested in expanding your kitchen repertoire (whether you're a cooking newbie or an experienced "foodie").

[Broken_Hippo]

I'd suggest that the best way to get over this is to learn food safety, proper handwashing, and get a few materials to help with that (different cutting boards for different things, etc). This sorts of things are the best way to cut down on food-borne illnesses.

And learn the statistics on them as well, so that you have a logical way to dismiss the fear.

Then start cooking simple things and work your way up.

[frandroid]

Not really a problem for vegan cooking. Go ahead and cook whichever way, and the worst thing that happens is undercooked or overcooked.

[mrob]

Not true. Incorrectly cooked kidney beans (and to a lesser degree other beans) can cause severe vomiting and diarrhea, because of phytohaemagglutinin toxicity, which needs prolonged heating to destroy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaseolus_vulgaris#Toxicity

[nommm-nommm]

Improperly washing vegetables can lead to a really bad time as well.

[the_af]

Cook whichever way, but remember to wash raw vegetables thoroughly! Improperly cleaned raw vegetables are a common source of gastroenteritis and similar illnesses (or more serious ones -- I still remember a cholera epidemic in my country when I was younger).

[xherberta]

A meat thermometer is great for quantitatively confirming that your food has achieved a germ-killing temperature.

Other than that, be paranoid about raw meat and its juices. Use disinfecting spray and paper towels to clean up any drips or spills. Don't set meat wrappers on the counter - send them straight into the trash. Immediately wash any utensils or plates that touched the meat, then wash your hands.

Wash your veggies; wash them well. Be sure to get leftovers into the fridge as soon as they're reasonably cool. To be on the safe side, throw away leftovers that have been out for more than 2 hours.

[tomjen3]

Use minced beef, since it is entirely obviously when it has been made safe (it will turn brown). Always use a clean knife, cutting board and hands for meat and things that come from the ground.

Also experiment with roasting things in the oven because with a cooking thermometer that's pretty much fool proof in terms of safety.

Finally consider a slow cooker/Instapot. Cook things for 8 hours and everything is safe to eat if it ever will be.

[nitrogen]

As another reply said, buy a thermometer.