[JustLurking2022]

Saw a variation of this during the recent bout of tech layoffs. Shortly before end of year eval time, a senior executive sent out emails questioning whether it was even possible for new hires to have made sufficient impact and suggesting they should consequently be given a poor rating as the default.

It's amazing that leaders at these companies which, for years, acted as though they had all the answers and were more successful than other industries because they worked smarter. And then, at the first sign of headwinds, they want no accountability for their decisions and can't figure out a principles as simple as being honest and treating people fairly.

I'm honestly curious how CloudFlare will handle reference checks for these people, given they are calling these performance based dismissals. Will they say they are "not eligible for rehire" (the HR way of saying they were terminated for cause)? If so, I hope they get sued, as that can tank a person's entire career trajectory.

[barbazoo]

> as that can tank a person's entire career trajectory

Plus the act of career suicide by publishing company meeting recordings on social media.

[abadpoli]

I think it’s interesting how subjective this can apparently be. What I saw in the video was someone standing up for themselves and fighting against perceived wrongdoing in an articulate way. That’s exactly the type of person I want on my team. I’d hire them in a heartbeat.

Recording and posting company videos is bad in the general sense, but not in this case. There’s nothing sensitive or confidential in the video that was posted. The fact that she posted this specific video doesn’t make me assume that she would go and post other videos that do have confidential information, and if a company is embarrassed by their actions in this situation, that says more about the company than it does this employee.

I doubt this is career suicide. It might even do the opposite by getting this person’s name and situation out there.

[omnimus]

You might want to hire this person but the question is if your boss would want them. There is a high chace they wouldn’t want to hire specifically this disobedient person.

[sangnoir]

> There is a high chace they wouldn’t want to hire specifically this disobedient person.

I had a niggling suspicion the opposing views on her employability are because the commenters are on opposite ends of the authoritarian axis.

My thesis is people who strongly believe in (power) hierarchies as the natural order of things will see her actions as unacceptable, and an affront to social order itself since she has proven she can't be trusted to submit to the rightful authority regardless of circumstances.

[JambalayaJim]

She specifically set herself up to be recorded and then shared it across the internet. That is the problem part, not her questioning of the HR people (which was a show for the camera!) That kind of “I’m the main character” type energy would be a lot to deal with, especially for a 4 month employee.

[sangnoir]

Yes, she didn't follow the rules. Whether one views that as inherently problematic broadly follows the value-system I outlined earlier. I think her breaking (the letter of) the rules is amply justified in this case - others clearly disagree. AFAICT, she didn't violate the spirit if the rules - no confidential. information was revealed.

[k8svet]

Disobedient? She's being fired. Honestly, I think the whole thing is mostly a nothing burger. Gen not-my-gen finding out about capitalism and at-will employment at the worst time, I guess. Watching tech over the last year makes it clear how out of touch lots of people are. Employers, employees, exploiters, exploitees. Especially the highly-comped ones. All of the sudden surprised the gravy train has run out.

But "disobedient", is quite a word choice.

[bsder]

Wrong. She's exactly who I'd want in sales.

Salespeople need to face overwhelming failure and keep going. They need to ignore social cues that would cause most people to back off. They need to be aggressive and challenging.

Getting rid of this salesperson seems like a big loss for Cloudflare.

[latchkey]

She wasn't a good fit for CF, so maybe she would be a good fit at your company instead?

"We fired ~40 sales people out of over 1,500 in our go to market org. That’s a normal quarter. When we’re doing performance management right, we can often tell within 3 months or less of a sales hire, even during the holidays, whether they’re going to be successful or not. Sadly, we don’t hire perfectly. We try to fire perfectly. In this case, clearly we were far from perfect. The video is painful for me to watch. Managers should always be involved. HR should be involved, but it shouldn’t be outsourced to them, No employee should ever actually be surprised they weren’t performing. We don’t always get it right. And sometimes under performing employees don’t actually listen to the feedback they’ve gotten before we let them go. Importantly, just because we fire someone doesn’t mean they’re a bad employee. It doesn’t mean won’t be really, really great somewhere else. Chris Paul was a bad fit for the Suns, but he’s undoubtedly a great basketball player. And, in fact, we think the right thing to do is get people we know are unlikely to succeed off the team as quickly as possible so they can find the right place for them. We definitely weren’t anywhere close to perfect in this case. But any healthy org needs to get the people who aren’t performing off. That wasn’t the mistake here. The mistake was not being more kind and humane as we did. And that’s something @zatlyn and I are focused on improving going forward."

https://twitter.com/eastdakota/status/1745697840180191501

[bsder]

> When we’re doing performance management right, we can often tell within 3 months or less of a sales hire, even during the holidays, whether they’re going to be successful or not.

1) This is complete hogwash and absolutely cements that I want nothing to do with Cloudflare.

I've worked in enterprise sales. I've also worked with sales as engineering support. I've also been the senior technical rep that sales had to sell to, too.

3 months on a newbie barely gets you up to the point that you can probably go into a client and shadow a senior and talk about a couple Powerpoint slides without completely embarassing yourself. That's it. It certainly doesn't get you the ability to handle an account or do a close.

Some of our later best salespeople looked completely useless at 3 months.

2) This is the kind of shitty "we're sorry you're offended" apology that dribbles out of every shitty CEO's mouth.

The fact that Cloudflare is STILL trying to stick with "fired for cause" after being put on blast is a gigantic red klaxon.

How many people did they treat like this before they finally got their chain yanked over it? What's the punishment for the people who did this? And how do they plan to make this right?

I don't see any of that, thanks. Hopefully some of the Cloudflare competitors are ready to make hay over this.

[tiredcto]

"disobedient"

[FireBeyond]

> What I saw in the video was someone standing up for themselves and fighting against perceived wrongdoing in an articulate way. That’s exactly the type of person I want on my team. I’d hire them in a heartbeat.

Initially. But then they respond by saying that they are willing to follow up with her separately with the answers to her questions, but they don't have them there and then. Not having them there and then is a failing on their part, absolutely. But she won't let go. "How was my performance bad?" repeatedly. At some point in the video it goes from someone having a legitimate grievance to someone just trying to make a point and not listening to feedback or responses.

[bitcharmer]

You're very naive if you think there would be a follow up

[FireBeyond]

I'm not naive. I've been on the receiving end of it. But once she's got that answer, it's clearly evident that's the answer you're getting. Refusing to move on from that isn't productive in a business setting, is more my thought.

(I literally had a PIP where my manager 100% ghosted me through the entire PIP, and I created all the work products requested in the PIP, and had documentary evidence that he did not once look at a single one of them. And then when he sat there in the last meeting with HR, and openly, repeatedly lied that he'd reviewed it all and that it was of an unsatisfactory level and that I could have been retained if it had been to a higher level, and I shared my screen filled with "Shared with X. Last Viewed: Never" on GDocs... he turned off his camera and just said the decision was made.

Which it was. I didn't expect it to be changed, nor did I particularly want it to be changed. But I did want his "openly lied to both employees and to HR over personnel issues" on the record. And it was. There was no point to keep repeating it twenty times over. It vented her frustration on a personal level but I'm not sure it shows good business judgment on her part (realize that's not mutually exclusive to CF not showing good business judgment either).

[Teever]

> Refusing to move on from that isn't productive in a business setting,

Maybe that would change if more people refused to move on?

[Loucra]

Noup. Only a moron would hire this person.

1) in the video is clear she was not a closer, so bad saleswoman.

2) posting the video with your face and name exposed?!?! Unless all this is fake, she is done.

[pentagrama]

There is almost no perception that the company acted professionally. So she came out as a person who can stand up for herself.

[stateofinquiry]

I think two things can be true at the same time in this situation:

1) The employee made a poor choice posting meeting recording publicly. 2) The company did an appallingly poor job terminating her.

Certainly this video makes me believe that cloudflare is likely a poorly managed company that treats its employees badly. As for Ms. Pietsch, she may be a low performing employee who made a bad choice to post this video.

[theodric]

If I were still in the business, and someone posted a video of me fucking up this badly as a manager, I'd be embarrassed, but I wouldn't hold it against them; rather, I'd try to fuck up less badly in the future.

She seems like a good hire: -smells bullshit -calls it out -articulate throughout -keeps cool, even while being fired, and while clearly (successfully) fighting back her emotions -defends her position, and doesn't back down when weak and unsatisfactory answers are provided

I can't comment on the quality of her work, but she seems tenacious and put together. She'd have done very well in the bank I worked at last. I hope she's swamped with offers from better companies.

[bsder]

> Plus the act of career suicide by publishing company meeting recordings on social media.

I'm very much older than the TikTok generation and I APPLAUD this kind of thing.

Companies have been getting away with too much garbage for way too long by hiding it. Forcing every dumbass minion to realize that they may be on blast at any moment means that both the company and individuals have to start thinking about not being complete shits.

Either this is a layoff and they're doing something legally shady or this is a stack-ranking termination and we all know how to regard companies doing that.

No matter what the reason is: Cloudflare comes out of this looking completely terrible.

[gumballindie]

We need to stop blaming victims and instead stand up for them. If the person who published the video suffers in any way shape of form as a result then cloudflare needs to be held accountable. That company is already on my shitlist. Potentially as low as microsoft, or openai. And that’s quite an achievement.

[paul7986]

That depends I think on the demographic hiring her as the TikTok generation as you can see are all on her side (older generation might view her as young/inexperienced/whiny to entitled brat). It might be a good PR stunt to hire her and thus look good in the eyes of possibly the millions who commented in her favor.

As well after Covid things are different like people don't and don't want to work as hard as they use to. We value our own time more then our employers time. A very small dataset where I experienced this is going to fast or casual food restaurants 15 to 30 minutes before they close. Some will cuss you out in a nice way for you making them do their job close to closing hours.

[seadan83]

> A very small dataset where I experienced this is going to fast or casual food restaurants 15 to 30 minutes before they close. Some will cuss you out in a nice way for you making them do their job close to closing hours.

I do not at all believe this is unique to the Tik-Tok generation.

> As well after Covid things are different like people don't and don't want to work as hard as they use to.

Do you have any evidence beyond anecdata for this assertion? My understanding is the "great resignation" was people upping their salary requirements, basically the willingness to break your body and soul for pennies is significantly lessened. In other words, minimum wage labor became more scarce and/or just more expensive. Are you willing to work for half of your current pay? If you were, would you work less hard?

For the knowledge that we do have, per the person being fired, they were a diligent worker. Seemingly to have done pretty well after a short ramp-up period even. This is why the firing is an even bigger kick in the nuts, she worked hard, was praised for that hard work by her manager, and then HR comes in and says she was not doing well at all. I would turn this around a bit, perhaps the older generation feels entitled that they can treat people like this.

[paul7986]

My own personal experiences and I anonymously created a post on Facebook discussing two anonymous local fast food & casual chains on a local FB group noting my experiences. The majority said I was in the wrong and the majority were 44 years and below (so not just the TikTok generation ..gen z). Older then that it skewed something like if are scheduled your shift to serve food you do so until closing time. There could be factors in play like the employees are not paid beyond their shift hours and they are taking the blame for crappy franchise owners.

Also to me it makes sense that this change has occurred and or I and others are experiencing the same thing. If there's a worker shortage band it's hard to retain workers the rule change as an owner so you can keep your business going especially where there's huge demand (jersey mikes for example)for what your selling.

[Spivak]

> Some will cuss you out in a nice way for you making them do their job close to closing hours.

If you do this you're a jerk. They've already started the process of cleaning the kitchen because they want to leave at close like you want to leave at 5. Do you start something new at 4:45 or do you pack up? If you do this and really believe it's "making people do their jobs" you've graduated to asshole and they're treating you in kind. I understand that HN is full of people who either don't grok cultural norms or who balk at them saying "well if they don't want to serve you half an hour before close they should close a half hour early then." I'm not gonna tell you can't live your life that way but you can't be surprised when you eventually find yourself disrespecting someone by ignoring those norms and people getting angry at you for it.

[try_the_bass]

The counterpoint to this is: if the restaurant wants to stop serving food at 4:45 so the staff can leave at 5, they should close at 4:45 instead of 5.

"Closing time" is external-facing, and customers shouldn't be expected to know that it actually means "4:45 so the staff can go home at 5".

It's not a cultural thing, it's about clearly setting expectations. If you publicly state that closing time is 5, and you're not okay with someone coming in to order at 4:45, that's on you, not them. Trying to justify "you can't order a half hour before closing" as a "cultural norm" is just making excuses for poor communication, imo.

Besides, isn't expecting everyone to understand your specific cultural norms fairly... Exclusionary?

[buffington]

I think it's a valuable skill to develop a sensitivity towards how workers are treated by their employers and how your own actions, however small to you, can have a big impact on them.

We all know by now that low paying jobs don't just pay poorly, but take everything they can from their employees. Closing at 5PM means clocking out, then locking the door at 5PM. If a customer came in at 4:45PM and you had to stop cleanup, start cooking, then cleanup again after 5PM that's a shame. Maybe you need to be better at your job. And you're a part time employee, so you don't qualify for overtime. Do better next time.

Service workers are treated like garbage, by their employers and by customers.

No one is making excuses for poor communication either. Don't you think that the kid mopping the floor would like to explicitly articulate in every way he knows how that it's only a real asshole who comes in asking for a french dip 5 minutes before closing? Or should he maybe a make a sign to put on the door underneath the business hours describing how, though he can't make you, it'd make his life a lot better if you didn't order food during the last half our of the day? How long would he have a job?

The thing about "cultural norms" (why not "norms?") is that expecting everyone to understand them is precisely what makes them "norms" in the first place.

[paul7986]

Well per their comment there is now such a cultural norm and it's ok to cuss out with your body language and attitude to treat customers as such. That worker does it to others per Facebook comments about that jersey mikes. 7 months later she is still there so just maybe this is the new norm ..not one that makes sense but Covid changed the game some to a lot.

[paul7986]

Read my comment below I went to this sub shop many times ..where they know me as a customer and when I walked in I asked explicitly if they could still make me a sub.

Just noting my experiences this never happened before Covid..u work the shift you are scheduled and serve food til then. Now if the owner of the business is isn't paying them beyond their shift yet their employees are getting blamed that's not right.

[spacemadness]

Or looked at another way, employers value workers time even less and people notice.

[theodric]

> Some will cuss you out in a nice way for you making them do their job close to closing hours.

Try asking a Swiss man in his late 50s/early 60s at a Swiss bank to do a medium-sized but achievable task at 15:00 on a Friday and see what kind of response you get. I had several under me, so I know firsthand that you'll likely get grumbling and pushback. You'll probably get the work product, but it will come with critical commentary.

[paul7986]

Sure and my experiences were at a McDonald's like fast food place we have in the US called Wendys and at a sub shop like Subway called Jersey Mikes.

I can semi understand 15 minutes at the sub shop and even asked the worker is it too late to make me a sub? She said no then proceeded to slam the meat, bread, etc on the counter, huff/puff and roll her eyes at me while her co-worker says we are closing soon. This same worker does this to many in the town as a handful of others complained about her in a FB group thread. She is still working there giving the same attitude. They are paid $20 an hour plus tips. After Coivd the employee is always right cause i guess they are hard to find now and retain.

[paul7986]

Most of my opinions are downvoted and disliked ... been on here since 2007. Yet like how i hated and pointed out Cruise was another Uber (they needed to get off the streets cause bro culture was driving it .. fake it before you make it with a startup that's product 1 ton or more robot car that's learning as it goes isn't any place for fake it before you make it) and many other instances my opinions are a lot of times forward thinking.

As well when i pitched the idea of sharing battery power between two phones to Intel and Mark Burnett (producer of the Voice, Survivor, etc) on his inventor reality show in 2015 ... in 2019 Samsung added this feature into their phones (Wireless Powershare). As well created an idea in Feb 2013 (long ago lol) that turned multiple phones into one synced speaker via a web app..in March 2013 Samsung announced they were putting this same tech into their phones and in April 2013 Google invited me to discuss putting our tech into the Moto X. My take here per my experiences /intuition is that ppl do not work as hard and care as much in low level to even some high level jobs due to worker shortages and or their companies aren't paying them beyond their shift.

I know this will be donwvoted too :)

[j4yav]

Is the main reason they are motivated to blame performance so that they can avoid paying out disability (edit: unemployment) insurance?

[wbl]

You get UI even if fired unless it was for misconduct. Being bad at your job is not misconduct.

[j4yav]

Then what’s the point of taking a shot at someone barely out of training to say it was their fault?

[JustLurking2022]

Not admitting senior leaders screwed up the strategy and over-hired.

[gruez]

>disability insurance

I think you meant unemployment insurance?

[barbazoo]

If so, how would they achieve that. In Canada afaik you only pay EI while one’s employed. How would they have saved money with this?

[ryandamm]

At least in California, businesses pay rates that are partially determined by the number of UI claims the company has paid out. You get a letter-based score that has many different tiers.

Startups without a long history end up in the worst category be default, iirc.

[gruez]

random from google: https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/payroll/handling-unempl...

>Again, you are responsible for paying FUTA and SUTA tax for your employees. And when former employees file for unemployment benefits, you are (indirectly) the one footing the bill.

>Benefit payments are charged to your employer tax account, which results in increased state tax rates. The more unemployment claims the state approves, the more you contribute for unemployment taxes.

[pandaman]

>I'm honestly curious how CloudFlare will handle reference checks for these people

Just like every other company: confirm the start date, the end date, and the job title. Nobody in their sane mind will give anything else.

[FireBeyond]

I'd say that a very large portion of companies also ask, and answer, the question, "Is the person eligible for re-hire?"

[gitfan86]

Background checks only confirm information given as part of an application. Employment and job title.

References however can be more about the quality of the work including "would you work with this person again?"

HR only does the background check part. The job of an HR department is to make the company look good. They do not want to start a conversation about how they hire bad employees or initiate a conversation where the former employer will tell their side of the story.

[gruez]

>I'm honestly curious how CloudFlare will handle reference checks for these people, given they are calling these performance based dismissals. Will they say they are "not eligible for rehire" (the HR way of saying they were terminated for cause)? If so, I hope they get sued, as that can tank a person's entire career trajectory.

1. If you were fired for "performance" reasons, why would you want to use that as a reference?

2. IANAL, but regardless of whether "not eligible for rehire" will "tank a person's entire career trajectory", truth is a valid defense against defamation. If Cloudflare indeed is not going to rehire them, they're fairly safe from lawsuits.

[krallja]

I just got a new job, and they called every single company I had worked for to ask them if I worked there, what my position was, and whether I was eligible for rehire. I didn’t get a choice about whether to include each previous employer or not: my choice was between “do the background check” or “thanks for your application, we have decided to move forward with a different candidate.”

The only other thing I could have done was not included the ones with less-than-stellar experience, but then I wouldn’t have made it past the resume screen because of the gaps!

[whamlastxmas]

I just embrace the gaps personally. The idea of a terrible former employer costing me a new job sounds awful. My effort might be in vain anyway since background checks, from my understanding, show the entirety of your W2 history anyway

[codersfocus]

You can lock your w2 history on the data brokers site. The most popular one is The Work Number.

[whamlastxmas]

Aren't there like a thousand data brokers? I am suspicious any efforts to block this would be effective

[SV_BubbleTime]

I had a guy ghost us. Just one day never come back.

He used us as a reference and I’ve never received a call from another job asking about his employment.

I’ve watched his LinkedIn, he has had 3 to my knowledge.

The truth is I think lying on resumes is more effective than it should be.