[paul7986]

That depends I think on the demographic hiring her as the TikTok generation as you can see are all on her side (older generation might view her as young/inexperienced/whiny to entitled brat). It might be a good PR stunt to hire her and thus look good in the eyes of possibly the millions who commented in her favor.

As well after Covid things are different like people don't and don't want to work as hard as they use to. We value our own time more then our employers time. A very small dataset where I experienced this is going to fast or casual food restaurants 15 to 30 minutes before they close. Some will cuss you out in a nice way for you making them do their job close to closing hours.

[seadan83]

> A very small dataset where I experienced this is going to fast or casual food restaurants 15 to 30 minutes before they close. Some will cuss you out in a nice way for you making them do their job close to closing hours.

I do not at all believe this is unique to the Tik-Tok generation.

> As well after Covid things are different like people don't and don't want to work as hard as they use to.

Do you have any evidence beyond anecdata for this assertion? My understanding is the "great resignation" was people upping their salary requirements, basically the willingness to break your body and soul for pennies is significantly lessened. In other words, minimum wage labor became more scarce and/or just more expensive. Are you willing to work for half of your current pay? If you were, would you work less hard?

For the knowledge that we do have, per the person being fired, they were a diligent worker. Seemingly to have done pretty well after a short ramp-up period even. This is why the firing is an even bigger kick in the nuts, she worked hard, was praised for that hard work by her manager, and then HR comes in and says she was not doing well at all. I would turn this around a bit, perhaps the older generation feels entitled that they can treat people like this.

[paul7986]

My own personal experiences and I anonymously created a post on Facebook discussing two anonymous local fast food & casual chains on a local FB group noting my experiences. The majority said I was in the wrong and the majority were 44 years and below (so not just the TikTok generation ..gen z). Older then that it skewed something like if are scheduled your shift to serve food you do so until closing time. There could be factors in play like the employees are not paid beyond their shift hours and they are taking the blame for crappy franchise owners.

Also to me it makes sense that this change has occurred and or I and others are experiencing the same thing. If there's a worker shortage band it's hard to retain workers the rule change as an owner so you can keep your business going especially where there's huge demand (jersey mikes for example)for what your selling.

[Spivak]

> Some will cuss you out in a nice way for you making them do their job close to closing hours.

If you do this you're a jerk. They've already started the process of cleaning the kitchen because they want to leave at close like you want to leave at 5. Do you start something new at 4:45 or do you pack up? If you do this and really believe it's "making people do their jobs" you've graduated to asshole and they're treating you in kind. I understand that HN is full of people who either don't grok cultural norms or who balk at them saying "well if they don't want to serve you half an hour before close they should close a half hour early then." I'm not gonna tell you can't live your life that way but you can't be surprised when you eventually find yourself disrespecting someone by ignoring those norms and people getting angry at you for it.

[try_the_bass]

The counterpoint to this is: if the restaurant wants to stop serving food at 4:45 so the staff can leave at 5, they should close at 4:45 instead of 5.

"Closing time" is external-facing, and customers shouldn't be expected to know that it actually means "4:45 so the staff can go home at 5".

It's not a cultural thing, it's about clearly setting expectations. If you publicly state that closing time is 5, and you're not okay with someone coming in to order at 4:45, that's on you, not them. Trying to justify "you can't order a half hour before closing" as a "cultural norm" is just making excuses for poor communication, imo.

Besides, isn't expecting everyone to understand your specific cultural norms fairly... Exclusionary?

[buffington]

I think it's a valuable skill to develop a sensitivity towards how workers are treated by their employers and how your own actions, however small to you, can have a big impact on them.

We all know by now that low paying jobs don't just pay poorly, but take everything they can from their employees. Closing at 5PM means clocking out, then locking the door at 5PM. If a customer came in at 4:45PM and you had to stop cleanup, start cooking, then cleanup again after 5PM that's a shame. Maybe you need to be better at your job. And you're a part time employee, so you don't qualify for overtime. Do better next time.

Service workers are treated like garbage, by their employers and by customers.

No one is making excuses for poor communication either. Don't you think that the kid mopping the floor would like to explicitly articulate in every way he knows how that it's only a real asshole who comes in asking for a french dip 5 minutes before closing? Or should he maybe a make a sign to put on the door underneath the business hours describing how, though he can't make you, it'd make his life a lot better if you didn't order food during the last half our of the day? How long would he have a job?

The thing about "cultural norms" (why not "norms?") is that expecting everyone to understand them is precisely what makes them "norms" in the first place.

[try_the_bass]

The thing about "cultural norms" (why not "norms?") is that expecting everyone to understand them is precisely what makes them "norms" in the first place.

It's "cultural norms" because it only extends to the scope of some population of people. These tend to break down when outsiders become involved, because one population's norms aren't always the same as another's.

This is why I have preference towards being explicit. If you don't want to make food after 4:30pm, put up a sign that says the kitchen closes at 4:30pm. Then it's explicit, and you don't have to rely on the implicit understanding of "cultural norms" in order to effectively communicate that you don't want to be making food later than 4:30pm.

It removes potential sources of ambiguity in favor of explicitly stating your preferences. This generally works better for all parties involved.

[buffington]

What you describe is certainly ideal.

But we don't have the ideal. We have employers calling the shots about what "we close at 5pm" means, and employees who would love to explicitly, in very clear language, explain why coming in within minutes of closing ruins their day. But if they did that, they'd lose their jobs.

I'm not saying we shouldn't fix what's broken. I'm saying because it's broken and that while it's broken, don't be an asshole to people stuck in the broken system.

[paul7986]

It's simple lock their doors at 845pm that says it all and I'm fine with it because it's confusing otherwise! I also had similar issue at Wendy's 30 minutes before closing time.

Overall and again I'm confused as to When is the appropriate time to go and get food from a place when their hours say 10am to 10pm?

[d1sxeyes]

I would personally say to expect the kitchen to start finishing around 9:15pm. Unless it’s a super high traffic place or a place where they do online orders as well, I would avoid going as much as possible after 9:15pm, and I would not even bother after about 9:40pm

[paul7986]

Well per their comment there is now such a cultural norm and it's ok to cuss out with your body language and attitude to treat customers as such. That worker does it to others per Facebook comments about that jersey mikes. 7 months later she is still there so just maybe this is the new norm ..not one that makes sense but Covid changed the game some to a lot.

[Spivak]

No, the cultural norm is that it's respectful to the workers to not go to a sit down restaurant less than an hour before it closes or a fast casual place less than a half hour before it closes. That time is for the people currently eating in the restaurant to finish up while the staff clean the kitchen but before they're asked to leave.

So someone who comes in during that time and insists on ordering food means they have to clean then kitchen again and stay even longer after close. So while it's praiseworthy to keep your composure when you're not being shown respect I won't fault them for begrudgingly doing what they ask and conveying that.

[paul7986]

They were asked and could've said as I knew them for two years as a customer to say I cleaned things up ..could come tomorrow. As well my other example ..,Wendy's 30 minutes before closing saying do u really went to order we are closing soon.

What time is the right time to go in and get a sub or a burger when their hours clearly say 10 to 10?

[paul7986]

Read my comment below I went to this sub shop many times ..where they know me as a customer and when I walked in I asked explicitly if they could still make me a sub.

Just noting my experiences this never happened before Covid..u work the shift you are scheduled and serve food til then. Now if the owner of the business is isn't paying them beyond their shift yet their employees are getting blamed that's not right.

[spacemadness]

Or looked at another way, employers value workers time even less and people notice.

[theodric]

> Some will cuss you out in a nice way for you making them do their job close to closing hours.

Try asking a Swiss man in his late 50s/early 60s at a Swiss bank to do a medium-sized but achievable task at 15:00 on a Friday and see what kind of response you get. I had several under me, so I know firsthand that you'll likely get grumbling and pushback. You'll probably get the work product, but it will come with critical commentary.

[paul7986]

Sure and my experiences were at a McDonald's like fast food place we have in the US called Wendys and at a sub shop like Subway called Jersey Mikes.

I can semi understand 15 minutes at the sub shop and even asked the worker is it too late to make me a sub? She said no then proceeded to slam the meat, bread, etc on the counter, huff/puff and roll her eyes at me while her co-worker says we are closing soon. This same worker does this to many in the town as a handful of others complained about her in a FB group thread. She is still working there giving the same attitude. They are paid $20 an hour plus tips. After Coivd the employee is always right cause i guess they are hard to find now and retain.

[paul7986]

Most of my opinions are downvoted and disliked ... been on here since 2007. Yet like how i hated and pointed out Cruise was another Uber (they needed to get off the streets cause bro culture was driving it .. fake it before you make it with a startup that's product 1 ton or more robot car that's learning as it goes isn't any place for fake it before you make it) and many other instances my opinions are a lot of times forward thinking.

As well when i pitched the idea of sharing battery power between two phones to Intel and Mark Burnett (producer of the Voice, Survivor, etc) on his inventor reality show in 2015 ... in 2019 Samsung added this feature into their phones (Wireless Powershare). As well created an idea in Feb 2013 (long ago lol) that turned multiple phones into one synced speaker via a web app..in March 2013 Samsung announced they were putting this same tech into their phones and in April 2013 Google invited me to discuss putting our tech into the Moto X. My take here per my experiences /intuition is that ppl do not work as hard and care as much in low level to even some high level jobs due to worker shortages and or their companies aren't paying them beyond their shift.

I know this will be donwvoted too :)