[candybar]

We can talk about other negative aspects of being a vet, but the primary factor is that they know how:

> But that reality of the job can also colour the way veterinarians view human lives – including their own – and for those already experiencing suicidal ideation, it can provide a simple justification: death is preferable to suffering. In a 2021 survey by pharmaceutical company Merck, 12.5% of the veterinarians surveyed said they were "suffering". And nearly half of the respondents were not receiving mental health care.

> "There's an idea that veterinarians work on the belief that it's right to euthanise a hopeless case," says Volk, "and we are seeing ourselves, emotionally, as hopeless cases."

> Death is a routine and repeated part of the job, and while it's never easy to end a life, Volk adds that it is easy to start seeing it as an option to alleviate their own distress. "I have medications in my clinic that are called 'Euthasol', and I euthanise all the time," she says. "Literally like five or six times a night."

> The CDC's 2019 study identified poisoning as the most common cause of death among veterinarians. The primary drug used was pentobarbital, one of the main medications used for animal euthanasia. The study’s authors determined that "training on euthanasia procedures and access to pentobarbital are some of the key factors contributing to the problem of suicide among veterinarians".

What often stops otherwise suicidal folks is that it's not an easy thing to do - suicide attempts usually do not lead to deaths (https://www.mayoclinic.org/medical-professionals/psychiatry-... - 5.4% according to one study, and the denominator here is # of people. not # of attempts). Vets on the other hand are trained to put down animals painlessly and effectively - it's not a surprise that those that have the means to complete suicide and have plenty of experience applying this to other animals then die disproportionately from suicide.

[oooyay]

I was lucky enough to own a house next to the vet clinic that ended up being my first dogs final veterinarian. Her sickness was very gradual; a boil grew on her neck and started aspirating blood, she became anemic, and somewhat lethargic. I supplemented her diet as the vet walked me through everything I could possibly do and was willing to afford. She gave me her number to text when weird things happened with the caveat that "the time" was when she wouldn't eat for three days. That day came after her 10th birthday, around Christmas time. I laid there in a room they had prepared and cried a lot with her. When the vet came in she cried as they delivered Euthasol. It was over in seconds and everyone in the room just cried for a while, people slowly left and they told me I could have as much time as I needed.

I cannot imagine doing that six times a day. You're not only having to watch a creature die, a creature whose personality you've observed, one that you've fostered good health in, but you often have to walk the human through delivering something out of this world. Being there with someone or something as they exit this plane is one of the most arduous journeys you can take, imo. I can understand the toll this must take after some time, when you relate to and see yourself in your patients - whether animal or human.

[heyoni]

I think one of the worst things about society right now is we don’t share the burden amongst ourselves. The dirty work so to speak is delegated to specialists and our hands stay completely clean. I’m not saying pet owners should euthanize their animals but staying there in the room while the vet did their work probably helped, and the article mentions that owners leaving is part of the problem.

[Exuma]

One of my favorite cats has a bad tumor and a 3 month expected life span. I found out a few days ago.

I’m shattered and the thought of having to be in the room or not is just super depressing.

I’ve never lost a pet before or even someone very close to me.

I’m scared for how bad it’s going to hurt

Part of me (most of me) wants to be there to feel the pain in the deepest way and not bitch out. To be there for the last breath

Oh man I feel so bad

[arachnid92]

Be there.

My family recently had to put down one of my family's beagles who had been with us for 15 years. She was blind, could barely walk, and was having trouble keeping food down, and we decided it was time for her to go to prevent her from suffering. My father, my sister, and I were in the room all together when the vet put her to sleep, and me and my sister held her until she stopped breathing altogether. It hurt, and I keep crying every time I think about it, but OTOH I am absolutely certain us being there made her feel safe and calm, and made it easier for her to pass in peace. The fact that I was able to be there and say goodbye in her final moments is a memory that, although very painful, I treasure tremendously.

[tlavoie]

Absolutely, this.

Being that human companion that's there with them to the end is terrible, and I wouldn't do without it. I've done it a few times now over the years, and see it as part of the price I pay for all they give me through our time together.

As a contrast, I was something like 13 when my mom took our dog in for euthanasia, without telling us kids that it was happening. They thought they were sparing us some pain, but I found it devastating. Getting home from school, "where's Buddy?" "Um...."

No, be there. It's always better in the end.

[whartung]

I remember when a friend of mine had to let go of his dog.

Paraphrasing, he said something like "I've been there since almost birth, commanded and controlled every aspect of his life, but who am I to choose this."

It's a dreadful responsibility, but it is just that -- a responsibility. When the pet goes to their forever home, this is part of forever.

I have personal issues with it being "scheduled", that just tears me up. That at 12pm there will be this life, and 12:01, there won't.

But at the same time, it's on us as caretakers to not let the slow decline turn into a spike of severe suffering. Sudden, crushing pain. Struggles breathing, etc. Crisis may well dictate when the time has arrived, some escalation (like not eating). Sometimes its just "We have an opening on Tuesday".

This is not what we necessarily signed up for, but it's the job.

As the others say, be there, hold them, hold them and let them go. You are their everything. This process is part and parcel to loving them.

Fond farewell as they cross the rainbow bridge.

Sorry about your cat.

[acegopher]

I'm so sorry about your cat. You have my condolences.

It's going to hurt. Real bad. But you will come through. Life is precious because it is hard, not because it is easy.

Be there for your cat. Let your touch, smell, and sight be what your cat remembers as they pass.

And sit with your grief. I'm getting teary-eyed just typing this as I remember doing the same for my little Abbi, a 14-year old Shih-Tsu mutt I euthanized over a year ago. And that's ok. It's ok to be sad. You will be sad. Cry, let it come out. Ironically, you will feel better than trying to "be strong" or hold it in.

[Exuma]

Thank you :( Your words make sense and I appreciate it. I havent really cried much in the last 10 years, maybe 2 times. So it feels very weird. I just started crying in the car while driving thinking of this post, and that is really new to me.

I am very sorry about Abbi

[MandieD]

My little parrot died in my hands, and while it was sad, I was (and still am) glad that she didn’t die alone. She’d been ill, and I was about to take her back to the vet to have that final shot, so it was not shocking.

Be there for your friend. It won’t make the hurt go away, and it may even be a bit scary, but it will help your healing process.

[lapetitejort]

I brought a sick cockatiel to the vet. They couldn't take care of him right away so I left. A few hours later I got a call that the bird was in cardiac arrest, and wanted to know if they should intervene. I quickly decided no, he should pass in peace. The household was in a panic for a few moments, then we were distraught. That was the worst phone call I've been on in my life. Its effects have not been fully processed over a year later. That is not how you're supposed to find out your pet passed. I know now not to take a visibly sick bird to the vet as it's already too late. I can only hope that I remember this lesson in the horrible case it happens again.

[MandieD]

I’m sorry that you and your family had to experience the loss of your cockatiel that way, and wish the vet had told you to take your little friend home instead.

Regular vets who aren’t avian specialists really can’t do much for pet birds aside from mending injuries; an avian specialist can help you diagnose diet issues before the bird is critically ill, so it might still be worth taking in a bird that seems a bit under the weather to see if it is a diet issue - an awful lot of pet bird problems are diet issues. I took mine to one to have a microchip implanted before exporting her to Germany; not a huge deal with big parrots (they can be injected into the wing), but for small conures, it involves general anesthesia, so I went out of my way to find someone who had a lot of avian experience.

But yes, once a pet bird appears seriously ill, it’s likely too late to do anything other than keep it warm and in a place it feels safe, and let nature take its course.

As far as I know, pretty much all animals, especially prey animals, hide illnesses and injuries, and that is definitely the case for parrots.

[mozman]

Never let your friend die alone.

[pengaru]

We all die alone.

[nyc_data_geek1]

Except those of us lucky enough to die in the arms of the one we treasure most in this world.

[Mezzie]

Be there.

I have had a cat die unexpectedly (heart failure) and she was in the car on the way to the vet when she died. She held on in the back seat until I was able to pull over and be with her. She was looking for me. You owe it to be there.

[Exuma]

Ok I will definitely do it then.

How long did it take to not feel just truly awful? Like I said... Ive never experienced that much grief/pain from loss before. I am scared how bad it will be, or what to expect.

[zargon]

When I lost my cat of 13 years, the first few weeks were terrible. Even just the feeling of emptiness in the house. And everything reminded me of her. For 6 months I could not talk about her without crying. But it's OK to feel this. I would rather feel it than not. It's a reflection of the wonderful companionship we had.

[CogitoCogito]

In my experience, the actual death brings a feeling of relief. This has been my experience for both dying pets and family members. It’s hard but it’s a part of life. It’s gonna be alright.

[Mezzie]

It was my first time losing anyone/anything close to me as well.

I was acutely distressed for a good month and basically non functional for a week or so, which is embarrassing to admit, but this cat was with me through some really dark times when no people were there for me. I was holding her body and just wailing when we got home - I was a 30 something year old woman and I needed my mom to come over to manage what to actually do. There is no shame in the pain - it means you love your kitty.

[endemic]

There was a scene in the movie "Don't Look Up" where Leonardo DiCaprio's character talks about losing the family dog. He says, "I've never cried so much before." That was pretty much my experience after losing my first dog. I felt pretty terrible for a day or two, but the grief went down over a week or so. My wife also pushed pretty hard for getting a new puppy, which helped with the "empty house" feeling.

[tpmoney]

You will feel awful, it's normal. It sucks a lot. And it's part of loving someone or something that much. I've done it 3 times now.

First time, it was probably a week or two before I stopped getting choked up or crying when I'd come around a corner expecting to see the dog, or hear the jingle of tags and it was just empty space. It was probably a month or so before it started feeling "normal" again, and we had a second dog at the time. She had lived 17 years, and when it was time she was barely able to stand or lay down properly. I still had doubts about whether I was doing the right thing, and even now almost 15 years later, I still feel guilty about the times leading up to then when I lost patience with her and her getting old. That experience was also the one that felt the strangest. Our vet had us do all the paperwork and payments up front so we weren't dealing with it after. It's a very strange feeling knowing you're paying someone money to kill your pet. I held her, told her how good of a girl she was and pet her the entire time. It hurt. We stayed for probably 20 minutes, but at a certain point you know they're just not there anymore and in a weird way you start feeling silly talking to and crying to a thing that isn't your pet anymore.

The second was the worst by far. She'd been steadily getting more aggressive for no reason we could understand for a few years. Our life circumstances at the time didn't really let us devote the time or money it would have taken to correct the problem. Looking back now, we should have given her up to someone or someplace that could do better than we could. One day, she just hauled off and maimed our other dog. In the middle of dealing with getting that dog surgery to preserve what limbs we could, I spent a terrible 2 weeks calling every rescue, shelter and option I could think of to try and find a home for her so we wouldn't have to put her down. In the end, we got nowhere, and we couldn't keep her and take the risk again. She was only 4 years old. It broke me for a solid month and was possibly the second worst thing I've ever had to go through in my life. She was terrified, confused and didn't deserve it and there was nothing we could do different. It's been about 6 years now, and I still sometimes have nightmares about her. About failing her and having to put her down. I can still see and hear her confused cries when it happened. It still hurts, but in this case it's less the loss and more everything that happened around it.

My last one was just this year. He'd survived being mauled by the previous dog, and went on to live to an incredible 17 years, despite losing a leg to that attack at the ripe old age of 11. We'd known it was coming for a while. About 3 years before hand the vet started getting concerned about his kidneys. He wouldn't eat the special diet so the vet figured it was better to just feed him what he would eat and let things run their course. No point in starving him early just to save some kidney function after all. On the day of, I left for work and he was happy and healthy and energetic. I came home and he would not leave me alone until I acknowledged his presence, which was unusual for him. He then went to lay down and refused to move or eat after that. We took him in to the vet and despite having just been to the bathroom 3 times in the last hour or so, he peed about a gallon all over the floor. The vet confirmed what we already suspected, that his kidneys were finally giving up. We weren't ready, but you never really are. Again just sat with him, petting, telling him how good he was. How much we would miss him. Thanking him for his loyalty. It took easily a month again before it started to feel at all normal to not have him around. It's been 6 months. I still miss him a lot. Like all of them, it's a dull ache now mostly. And even though I knew that I made the right decision, there are still days I doubt myself. Where the voice in the back of my head tries to convince me that he wasn't that bad and we should have paid for more testing and some meds and we killed him for nothing because he was fine that morning. But it was the right thing.

It doesn't get easier, but of all the doubts, regrets and nightmares I've had none of them have ever been about being there. All 3 of those dogs were absolutely devoted to us and there through so much hardship. The least I could do at the end was make sure I was there for them, and despite how hard it was I don't regret it for a moment. Being there helped me to. It's hard enough walking into a place with your pet, and walking out without them. I can't imagine how I would deal with walking in and turning them over and then just walking away.

You should think now (and maybe look at) what sort of options for the end care are available from your vet. Ours takes the body afterwards, and you have different options, the cheapest being a group cremation where you get nothing back. Then at least the company our vet uses offers individual services, ranging from just getting a paw or nose print casting back to getting ashes back. It helps to know ahead of time what your options are and what you want to do so you're not trying to decide on what will be a very hard day.

I don't think anyone can prepare you for it. I don't think you're ever going to be ready. It will be normal to hurt in ways you've never thought you could hurt. It will be normal to feel silly about hurting so much over an animal. It will feel like it will never be normal again. Then it will feel guilty when it does start to feel normal. In time, the pain comes in smaller and less frequent waves. Your memories will be dominated by the rest of the time you had with them, and not the worst day. You will inevitably be given a copy of "The Rainbow Bridge". It's schmaltzy and beautiful at the same time, and may or may not be comforting. If nothing else there's comfort in knowing it's something of a ritual to get it, and it reminds you that you are just one of a long line of people who have been brought to some of the highest of highs and the lowest of lows by a ridiculous 4 (or fewer) legged companion.

It is ok to be scared. It is ok to hurt. You won't want to do it, but at least for me I can't imagine not being there, and in the end I don't think you'll regret being there. It will suck a lot at first, and less as time goes on. Whether it's worth going through again is up to you of course, but it's probably worth thinking on the fact that every pet owner before you has done it, and most of them probably went on to own many more pets. I think there's something hopeful and positive in that. Good luck, I'm sorry for what's coming, and I hope the pain fades quickly for you so that you can remember the good times sooner.

[burntsushi]

I just did this for my cat Cauchy about 10 days ago. It was brutally difficult. But I was so glad ("glad" seems like a gross word in this context, not sure how to phrase it) I was there with him in his final moments and that he was able to die painlessly in my arms.

My vet had a "back door" entrance for these sorts of things. I took them up on it and I needed that.

[dan_quixote]

You should be there. It won't be easy, but you will revisit this memory many times in the future. Each time you think about it later, you won't regret being there. You will, however, regret NOT being there. And know that it gets easier.

[hoorible]

Be there.

I was 14 when we had to put our first animal down; my mom, someone I guess you’d describe as hyper-emotional, was a wreck. A year later we had another, thankfully just of old age, but she “couldn’t bear it again” so I was in the vet by myself because I didn’t want my cat to be alone when she passed. It sure sucked doing it alone and feeling like I had to be the grownup, but I’ve never regretted my choice.

If you need to bring a friend to help get you through it, then do. But be there, no matter what. The closure that it offers is invaluable.

I’m so sorry. I hope you both find peace.

[heyoni]

I don't know if this is bad advice or not but maybe take some valerian root or something like it before going in if you're worried about being overwhelmed. This is 100% bro science coming from me, but there are real studies studying the effects of propranolol on patients with PTSD where they purposely trigger the offending memory while on the drug in order to rewire the sensations associated with the memory.

It doesn't have to be traumatizing and you won't be alone.

[rm_-rf_slash]

You can ask your vet for a home visit. Let them pass in a place that they know is safe and loving.

[WarOnPrivacy]

I was wondering about that. I'd hate to make their last hours full of freakout.

I'd most prefer doing the euthanization myself. It feels like something that should be my responsibility.

[rm_-rf_slash]

I fed my pupper the biggest spoonful of peanut butter he’d ever seen, he fell asleep peacefully. When the vet switched to the euthanizing agent, he didn’t move a muscle.

[at_a_remove]

I did that. I am told it usually goes well.

Mine did not go well. I was a wreck for about two weeks after.

[raffraffraff]

I've been there several times, and I know I'll have to do it at least 8 more times before I die. I will always have dogs because "I'm a dog person". I love them. I have two greyhounds on my couch right now. (Always two).

3 years ago I had to have lovely Lily put to sleep because she was 14, had bad arthritis, and years of meds had taken their toll. I was sad but I didn't second guess it at all. I gave her a wonderful home, and I doted on her. The last thing to do "for her" was prevent further suffering.

2 years before that, I did it with Zuni, a wonderful, sensitive, intelligent dog. He had lung cancer. He was only 11, but he was already starting to suffer, and I simply couldn't bare to put him through any more. It's easier to deal with your own pain of loss than to watch him slowly deteriorate and wheeze and suffer more every day. No regrets.

5 years before that (yes, I was unlucky) I had to put Pasha to sleep because she had bone cancer. She was 6. My first dog, as an adult with my own home. That was the first time I ever had to make that decision. I was wracked with guilt and worry that I wasn't finding some other way for her to live. I got second and third opinions, scoured the internet looking for novel treatments. I eventually had her put to sleep because she was in so much pain and the vet said "there is nothing you can do, I've seen this a thousand times". My only regret with Pasha is that, in my fear, I failed to do the one thing that was in my power, for her: prevent suffering. That's my only regret.

When you hit 50 and you're on your Nth dog, you don't so much "just go through the motions and then get another dog" when you're dog dies. That makes it seem cold. It's always painful. But these days I accept that I'm "a dog person", and that I'll always have a space in my heart and on my sofa. There are thousands of dogs that need homes right now. And as sad as I'll be when one of these two muppets gets terminal, I'll do the right thing. Then I'll wait a few weeks, and go straight to the pound. It's not cold and mechanical. It doesn't diminish the love I have for these two idiots, or for Lily, Zuni or Pasha. What I've realized is that the two worst things are:

- their pain

- you worrying about their pain

Honestly, while the moment of death is a terrible thing, it's always peaceful. It's always a release.

[zeku]

Focus on how good of a life you've given your cat. Be there for it when it passes if you can.

My childhood dog had cancer and ended up having a seizure in my arms. Later I buried him myself.

Being there for him and burying him myself gave me a lot of closure and I'm proud I was able to be his friend and give him a good life.

[giantg2]

I think there are still a number if people who would euthanize their own animals. But to your point, it seems a large part of society has completely detected from the realities of life. How many know what it takes to grow/process food, or butcher an animal for meat, etc? No, that just comes in a package at the store...

[Arrath]

> I think there are still a number if people who would euthanize their own animals.

I would lean towards agreeing with you. Anecdotes aren't data etc etc but my uncle couldn't bring himself to take his dog into a sterile and impersonal vet's office when it was his dog's time, nor could he bring himself to doing the deed himself, so he and my dad worked together to do it. For a stoic old logger, army mechanic, and construction worker, it broke him for a while.

[the_doctah]

I often think that I would prefer to euthanize my dog myself. He is absolutely terrified of going to the vet (of strangers as well), and having to do it there makes it that much worse. I'm one of only a handful of people he trusts.

[akamia]

That was why we used an at home euthanasia service for our dog. He hated going to the vet and had to go multiple times a week toward the end. We didn't want to have him scared and stressed in his last moments.

Look into at home options if the time comes. We actually found that the cost was not much more than doing it at our vet's office. I think it was $500 at home vs $400 in office. $100 extra to give him the best end possible was the least I could do.

[bigmattystyles]

Same, he was mostly bed bound as he had been for months, the vet came to our place. My wife and I were crying like no other, was this the right time, the question was haunting us, still does. He still appeared to like to eat, but he was paralyzed, needed help to poo and pee, even to stand to eat, but he could still sit on lap and seem happy but even that was mitigated by the fact he was on a lot of gabapentin. The moment of euthanasia came and he was asleep throughout the whole thing. Broke our hearts but gave him a painless exit. I will say this though, kids under 10 need not be there. I love and miss you everyday W.

[heyoni]

Yea there are services. I assume you can hit a vein based on your username?

Only thing I'd worry about is making sure you have extra drugs and know what to do in case your initial dose doesn't work. It can happen sometimes.

[bengale]

I wonder if that's true. You're putting the animal out of its misery in many cases, but for a lot of people in the room you're a key part of one of the worst moments for them. I think of the last one I went though that was unexpected, how many people have to stand in a room and watch two grown adults lay on the floor and truly sob, to see their hearts break. I can't imagine the empathy for the love people feel for animals makes it any easier.

[DoesntMatter22]

I take care of a lot of feral cats and it's really tough. They die often, due to feline HIV or feline Lukemia.

It sucks. 9 have died since January (3 were kittens). But it's just not practical to put them to sleep. The first one I did but it was 300 bucks.

Idk it does suck.

[rurp]

Oof yeah, this is tough. I have done some fostering of kittens and on the whole I highly recommend it; it's a great way to have kittens in the home without committing to long term adoption, and it helps out shelters that really need the help. But this part of it is tough. Feline lukemia and other terminal illnesses are not uncommon with shelter cats and it sure hurts to lose them.

[DoesntMatter22]

It's crazy how fast they go down hill. Go from like just fine to holocaust skinny in 2 months. Brutal to watch, especially hard when the kittens die or dissappear. I had 2 tabbies that were born this year. One had a white tipped tail and the other a black tipped. I loved them both but loved black tipped the most.

She would sit in my arms and purr just staring in my eyes. So cute. Then one day it got run over. Not much you can do really.

In a very weird and minor way it gave me insight into why losing a child during pregnancy or very young is so painful. I always thought "What's the big deal? You just have another one".

I mean I wouldn't say that to people but that's just how it seemed to me. But then with the cats some had great personalities or super soft coats and I was so looking forward to petting them and playing with them when they got older. Then they died and there is a bit of a hole.

Obviously this is nothing compared to a human life, but it made more sense now. You have a child and you think about their first day of school, how you will dress them, what their interests are, what special skills they have.

It gave me a lot more insight into what it's like to be a parent and lose a child and how devastating that probably is.

[agumonkey]

That is a very interesting view point. Existence used to be cohesive, ritualized, we were all close to and part of every aspect of it. Now it's all industrialized, and it's not surprising that it's dehumanizing to people in charge.

[heyoni]

My wife thinks that in time of peace we should require kids that turn 18 to spend a year doing some community service. Somewhere far from home.

[agumonkey]

I so wish our cultures did something like that. I think Denmark has a habit of 18yo kids going away for a year, to live freely with new found majority status.

I was also thinking international community swaps.. people from one country would have opportunities to go, not to their direct neighbours, but one frontier further. To make people know about other countries on the field. The plan would be to have kids all around develop a clearer bond with people far away and avoid dehumanised reflex hatred.

[rurp]

Totally agree. In college I lived in a transfer dorm for a year which was mostly filled with kids who had either transferred from another country or had taken a gap year before college to do something interesting. It was great! The group was full of interesting people and there was dramatically less of the typical dumb college freshmen behavior than usual.

[raducu]

> I think one of the worst things about society right now is we don’t share the burden amongst ourselves

Watched a reddit post about a romanian mother making a fuss about her and her small autistic son being kicked out of an uber because the son threw a tantrum and somewhat dirtied a chair.

I was appaled by the lack of empathy of some of the redditors.

Nobody is entitled to anything, nobody owes anything to anybody, but the sharing/safety net thing is what makes us an advanced species.

[rendx]

Generally speaking, I think it's totally okay to try and align interests. I know people who feel a lot of gratitude to be able to accompany people through hard times, and would never want to call that "dirty work".

[crmd]

The worst day of my life was a few years ago when I had to put down my greyhound. I will never forget opening the door to the examination room, beside myself in grief bawling my eyes out, and stepping into the waiting room full of horrified people. And then going up to the desk to pay and trying to keep my shit together. I felt so sad and vulnerable it was just awful.

[julianeon]

I'm curious, since you mentioned this, and I've never really understood the alternative to euthanasia.

Your vet said to take the dog in when it wouldn't eat for more than 3 days, and you did.

What would've happened if you didn't take the dog in? If you kept leaving food out for it in case it did eat, but expecting that it probably wouldn't.

I imagine the dog would die on its own, but I have no idea of the time frame or what you could expect in that situation.

[oooyay]

Good question. During that time we didn't know exactly what was wrong. I brought her in for the boil, we ran lots of tests, and the only thing we could determine was that she was anemic. If she ate more she was anemic less as long as the wound continued to aspirate. I cleaned it up every night, kept a patch on it, and fed her whatever would make her eat her dog food. That ended up being lots of hot dogs, burgers, and pumpkin puree but it varied by the day. Sometimes she really liked this gut flora powder. If I didn't add this stuff, she plainly just wouldn't eat. By the team she wouldn't eat food with the additives for three days is when I brought her in. At the time I didn't know it, but the cancer she had was sending her into a sort of liver failure.

When she passed away her abdomen relaxed and the vet was able to feel her liver. It was covered in tens of tumors. Without a way to clean her blood her body was expelling the blood. On the day I put her down had I not given her a blood transfusion her tiredness would have shifted towards being weak and achey, probably pretty painful, and she would've been susceptible to severe infection, stroke, or a seizure. After the blood transfusion she would've immediately needed surgery to attempt to remove the largest tumors and chemotherapy to attempt to rid her of the cancer.

The odds of surviving the surgery and chemotherapy were relatively low. I didn't listen to much the vet said as I just kind of zoned out while she explained the options that day. What I do remember is the vet noting that both of those options would result in a lot of pain that she wasn't going to understand and that the odds of survival were very low while the cost was going to be high. In my mind, humans have the privilege of letting a pet leave this world with marginal suffering - a privilege we don't even really extend to ourselves. In the end, I made the choice that I'd want for myself.

[cmrdporcupine]

You made the right choice and you were a caring pet owner and care giver.

[tacocataco]

" the caveat that "the time" was when she wouldn't eat for three days."

Same as my cat. We were trying to force feed her and eventually she couldn't breathe when she choked on her food.

[iancmceachern]

Totally. Putting Jimmy down was the worst day of my life.

[warner25]

Great comment. I've had an interest in suicide prevention for many years and I think you're right on the mark.

I'm in the US military which has a suicide rate much higher than the general population[1], so prevention is a high priority, and hence my interest. A common thread is clearly that military service members are people who are willing to kill, and think differently about killing and death, and often have access to guns (most often personally owned, because they're gun enthusiasts, not because the military issues guns).

[1] My understanding is that after you adjust for demographics, because most service members are young males, the rate actually isn't higher, but the reality is what it is: we lose more people from suicide every year than combat operations.

[verteu]

> My understanding is that after you adjust for demographics, because most service members are young males, the rate actually isn't higher, but the reality is what it is: we lose more people from suicide every year than combat operations.

Interesting note, I didn't realize this. Apparently, demog-corrected military suicide rate was previously below civilians [1]. In a few recent years this may have reversed, per the graphs on https://chrisfrueh.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Smith-et-a... .

[1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=13069467757696393...

[warner25]

Yes, that study is a good find. There are so many fascinating bits of information once you start looking at this topic below the surface.

Another one that I remember learning is that the suicide rate among white troops is much higher than the rate among black troops; I have no idea why.

Also, the rate is actually higher among troops who haven't been to deployed to combat. That might be an age thing (younger people are higher risk, and less likely to have served long enough to see combat). It might also be because troops with intense personal problems get held back from combat deployments so that they can get medical care, make court appearances, etc.

On that note, the upward trend over the past 20 years is likely, partially explained by demographic shifts too. When we had a draft up until the 1970s, the military got a broad cross section of society. Then through the early 2000s, the military was able to be quite selective, only taking people with high school diplomas and few personal problems. Starting around 2005, with both Afghanistan and especially Iraq raging, and a fairly low unemployment rate in the US, the military had to start scraping the bottom of the barrel, bringing in more people with criminal histories who didn't finish high school and had other life problems.

[red-iron-pine]

getting into the infantry, at least in the US military, is non-trivial. entire generations have now grown up on Halo and Modern Warfare 2, and there are no shortages of wanna be trigger pullers. Meanwhile something like 1 in 11 troopers in the Army are combat arms -- you need a lot of logistics, mechanical, etc. bodies. Closer to 1 in 7 in the Marines, but still the majority aren't combat arms.

might be a different story in UKR, where they're grinding through troops and everyone is looking to be in the rear w/ the gear.

but that selection bias is definitely geared towards motivated combat troopers. meanwhile some kid from Missouri joins up thinking he's gonna get out of his shit town and learn computers or something but then spends 18 hours a day filtering water and fuel at a remote base in Germany for 4 years.

> Another one that I remember learning is that the suicide rate among white troops is much higher than the rate among black troops; I have no idea why.

depressed middle class white kid realizes he could have worked at Target while going to community college, and is now isolated doing a job he hates and can't quite for 3+ years. black kid is happy he doesn't have to go back to a worse situation.

also heard a statistic that hispanic recruits are more likely to make it though basic training and AIT / A-schools. hispanic paradox, military edition?

[giantg2]

"think differently about killing and death"

I think this is a huge factor that feel under represented for the population in general. I'd imagine this is part of a factor for the higher farmer suicide rates as well.

[derbOac]

I think this is a dangerous way to approach the problem. Regardless of whether or not the assertion that the "primary factor is they know how", the underlying cause is distress and hopelessness.

I'm frustrated a bit by how discussions of suicide — with vets as well as others — tends to focus on making the means less available, as if it just solves the problem. That's a solution for society, to wash their hands of addressing the underling problems, and not a solution for the person suffering.

Veterinarians should be in a position where they don't want to commit suicide, regardless of whether they have the means.

[candybar]

Sure, but at this point you're no longer talking about why vets are dying from suicide at a higher rate. We don't know if vets tend to deal with more "distress and hopelessness" than the general population.

[stvltvs]

It doesn't need to be either/or. Both aspects are important. If I or someone in my household were experiencing suicidal ideation, I'd remove firearms, for example, from the house while also trying to addressing the underlying causes.

[vjk800]

> What often stops otherwise suicidal folks is that it's not an easy thing to do

Is the take away from this that if all people knew how to kill themselves efficiently, the suicide rates in general population would be as high as they are among vets? It's pretty grim to think that the only thing that's stopping many people from killings themselves is that they don't know how...

[basisword]

I think it depends on how 'easy' it is. If it was as simple as pushing a button and you knew it was instant and painless I can imagine many times in my life I would have pressed that button - and I'm sure a lot of people might do it in moments of great distress, when thoughts of the future aren't there. I think the issue isn't the "know how" as you mentioned, it's more the difficulty and uncertainty (of pain and success). Working in a place that has the tools and you know how to use them reduces so many barriers to entry so to speak.

[wcedmisten]

There's a case study [1] from the UK when they phased out "coal gas" which contained carbon monoxide, and which many people were using to painlessly kill themselves via their ovens (Silvia Plathe being the most famous to do so). The conclusion was that removing this method of suicide did decrease the suicide rates over that time period.

[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC478945/

[tonyedgecombe]

Just putting paracetamol in small blister packs lowered the rate of overdose in the UK:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

[HeyLaughingBoy]

I wouldn't be surprised.

I had an gf who was bipolar and suffering from PTSD and was on meds for those conditions and also due to previous suicide attempts.

I remember one conversation after we had broken up when she told me how depressed she had been and I said, "well at least you haven't offed yourself."

She smiled a bit and said, "I tried to kill myself three times in the last two months. I guess I'm not very good at it."

Answering the begged question: twenty+ years later and last time I checked she was still alive and well.

[Arrath]

> > "There's an idea that veterinarians work on the belief that it's right to euthanise a hopeless case," says Volk, "and we are seeing ourselves, emotionally, as hopeless cases."

Fuck me that is dark.

[at_a_remove]

The realization that to some pet, you're merely a fallible god, but one who can often offer little but death in an alien place, filled with the scent of sick, dying, and/or terrified other animals. Why am I here? Did I do something wrong? And your face is the last one they see. Run through that a thousand times per year and, unless you have monastic levels of detachment, you might end up feeling as if you were little more than the keen whistling edge of a scythe which never quite dried.

[Arrath]

I'm not sure what a poet is doing on a tech forum, but glad to have you here. I'm gonna go be sad and reflect on life now.

[notpachet]

> keen whistling edge of a scythe which never quite dried

Forgive me if I steal this quote.

[zkelvin]

This was beautifully written. Thank you.

[bethekind]

Now this is beautifully sad

[TerrifiedMouse]

> Fuck me that is dark.

I mean we all die eventually. It’s just a matter of when and how much joy and suffering will we encounter on the way. If you look at it as an optimization problem, dying early can be the better scenario.

Frankly there are fates worse than death. To suffer for years before dying is just messed up. I hope that when I go it will be relatively quick. I can only hope it will be relatively painless but I think I will only be able to get that in a hospital setting.

[barrysteve]

You can be saved from fates worst than death. You're not forced to be saved from fates worse than death.

But you can be.

Faith is a failing concept in the West when people 'give up' to a predicted outcome.

[pydry]

This reminds me of bridge fences being successful at bringing down overall suicide: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2610560/

[candybar]

Yup, suicidal attempts are often impulsive, so any barrier (in this case literally) even if it's relatively easy to get around, reduces suicide rates. Here's another study, this time on firearms:

https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-owner...

> The researchers found that people who owned handguns had rates of suicide that were nearly four times higher than people living in the same neighborhood who did not own handguns. The elevated risk was driven by higher rates of suicide by firearm. Handgun owners did not have higher rates of suicide by other methods or higher rates of death generally.

Suicide attempts by firearm are far more likely to complete than most other means, ergo, suicide death rates are higher among those that have firearms.

[I_Am_Nous]

I remember reading about how "sticking your head in an oven" was a legitimate suicide method when using coal gas ovens. When people switched to natural gas/electric, the suicide rate dropped drastically:

>The switch from coal gas to natural gas also had one unexpected effect. During the ‘50s and ‘60s, about half of the suicides in Britain were by coal gas. By the ‘70s, when the transition to natural gas was complete, the number of gas suicides had dropped to zero and the overall suicide rate was down a third. Even the suicidal appreciate convenience. If it's too much trouble, as Dorothy Parker said, "You might as well live."[1]

1. https://gizmodo.com/why-have-people-stopped-committing-suici...

[qohen]

For those unfamiliar with Dorothy Parker[0] and/or that punchline, here's the poem, Resumé, that it's from[1]:

Resumé

By Dorothy Parker

Razors pain you;

Rivers are damp;

Acids stain you;

And drugs cause cramp.

Guns aren’t lawful;

Nooses give;

Gas smells awful;

You might as well live.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Parker

[1] https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44835/resume-56d22415...

[johnla]

Dark comedic thought: if a prerequisite to suicide is to get your affairs in order and leave behind a clean house, suicide would be very low; ugh, too lazy to clean. I'll just live instead.

[tonyedgecombe]

If you see a friend getting their affairs in order and unexpectedly cleaning house then you should worry.

[chasd00]

Tangent: There’s a lot of societal pressure in A house being clean. Remember the line in Goonies from the mom, “boys, I really want the house clean when they tear it down”?

[buildsjets]

I always wanted to die clean and pretty

But I'd be too busy on working days

So I am relieved that the turbulence wasn't forecasted

I couldn't have changed anyways

I am relieved that I'd left my room tidy

Goodbye

[pempem]

Dark, comedic, and so true!

Imagine some kafkaesque effort of bureaucracy

[depletedgherkin]

"Guns aren't lawful", after reading that line I thought she might be British, but it looks like she's American. Were gun laws stricter back then or something?

[peyton]

Yeah the Sullivan Act. Supreme Court struck it down last year.

[birksherty]

Just living without dying is not a good life. If anyone wants to stop suicide they should prevent the root cause that leads to it, not just stop giving a less painful way to do so. It's inhuman and many forced to die horribly because of this. It's always the privileged who decides to make suicide harder.

They think life is always going to be good at after waiting. For many it's not true. Privileged people think just because they themselves have it easier, people who are willing to die just mentally ill and don't know how to enjoy life.

If we are brought to life easily without thinking and no consent, then there should be a way to leave if anyone wants to. Life should not be a one way hell trap, suffering for long time just so that well off people can feel better and not hear about suicide.

Nobody actually does anything to prevent root cause, but it's completely ok for them if people suffer long time without dying. Media will also never show humans whose life is still miserable after not dying. It must be a feel good story.

[dinkleberg]

Thank you! I am not, nor have I ever been suicidal. But the societal view towards it has always felt like tyrannical bullshit.

You’re telling me that if there is nothing left for me in life and I just don’t want to go on anymore that I can’t because society deems it has wrong and selfish (and yet society applauds other selfish acts…)

To be stuck as a slave to your environment and be deprived of your one ultimate freedom is inhumane.

It goes without saying that we should absolutely strive to help those that are suicidal. And a big part of that I imagine is actually providing people a space where they can find a purpose in life rather than being trapped in the endless cycle of trying to escape their debt with low paying and soul destroying jobs.

[jart]

https://youtu.be/tetwGGL997s?t=149

[linuxftw]

That could also be explained that everyone who wanted to kill themselves (WW2 veterans) had already done so. Suicides being 1/3 lower in the 70s than the 50's and 60's seems expected.

[loeg]

Coal gas purportedly has much higher levels of carbon monoxide than natural gas, which would be sufficient.

[linuxftw]

I'm just talking about the connection to the overall suicide rate. Obviously if natural gas doesn't kill you, or as quickly, that method of suicide will go down. But the overall rate can be explained by many other phenomenon.

[loeg]

E.g., Sylvia Plath.

[philomath_mn]

I think about this a lot with my brother. He took his life in the alleyway behind the gun shop where he just bought the ammo -- I have no idea what his mental state was (estranged from family for many years) but I have to think there was some impulsive decision-making involved.

[I_Am_Nous]

I'm sorry to hear about your brother :( depression can be very much like torture. Some people can last for a long time before they will do/say anything to make it stop, but without help eventually it will wear you down until you don't value your life anymore and the promise of a "quick, painless end" via gunshot is hard to resist when you are too deep. Add in any kind of extra stress like drug addiction or trauma and it very quickly becomes too much.

[NalNezumi]

This makes me wonder more about the idea of legalizing assisted (pain-free) suicide, with the caveat that the process needs a lengthy evaluation time (background check for no coercion, mental evaluation etc).

I wonder if it would have the opposite effect, reducing suicide rate by picking up the people so hopeless they would've just jumped a bridge/bought a gun if the option of peaceful suicide didn't exist.

[ikjasdlk2234]

Vermont passed a law like this in 2013, designed to help those with incurable diseases choose when to pass. Vermont Public Radio recently did a good podcast on it.

https://www.vermontpublic.org/podcast/brave-little-state/202...

[heyoni]

It sounds like any length process would remove the impulsive component and should suffice.

[giantg2]

I think Canada has a popular assisted suicide program. I'm not sure if anyone has done the research to see how it affects suicide rates or methods outside of the program.

[mensetmanusman]

They tried this in Europe and it resulted in an interesting scenario where the doctor was killing someone who changed their mind and was telling them to stop.

[Scarblac]

In the Netherlands there is a problem of suicide by train near mental health institutions.

So they placed fences. That left the nearby crossings where there had to be gaps in the fencing. There they placed "anti walk mats", rubber(?) mats with a pointy surface that's hard (but not impossible) to walk on.

And those two together brought down the number of suicides by a lot.

[graypegg]

That actually gives me some appreciation for some seemingly pointless vertical posts my city put into a bridge near me.

[psychlops]

I think you are using the wrong statistics to make your point. The key point here is the there is a suicide difference between males and females. And vets are overwhelmingly male (90%).

Women attempt suicide a lot more and those statistics you used are skewing your conclusion. Men (vets or not) use guns and are more successful.

[candybar]

You're wildly off the mark here. From the study quoted:

> In 2017, over 60% of 110,531 US veterinarians were female, and in 2016, approximately 80% of students enrolled at US veterinary medical colleges were female.

> The PMRs for suicide for all veterinarian decedents (2.1 and 3.5 for males and females, respectively), those in clinical positions (2.2 and 3.4 for males and females, respectively), and those in nonclinical positions (1.8 and 5.0 for males and females, respectively) were significantly higher than for the general US population.

So no, this has nothing to do with vets being disproportionately male (which isn't the case to begin with).

[psychlops]

lol, have an upvote!

[chaostheory]

> And nearly half of the respondents were not receiving mental health care.

Mental health care is rarely affordable or accessible even in countries with socialized health care systems. I guess that explains the rise of tele mental health sessions via apps, but who would trust them? Privacy is already a big issue, and it’s even more important when it comes to mental health care

[pas]

are vets not well-paid? (vet services' cost has risen a lot more than human healthcare's, so there's clearly a strong demand, thus a big consumer group willing to pay them)

are they consuming mental health services more/less compared to general population or compared to their zip code?

[chaostheory]

It ranges, but it tracks with developer pay.

[alexashka]

> What often stops otherwise suicidal folks is that it's not an easy thing to do

Assuming you are acting in good faith - please give this a minute of thought.

The link you provided giving the 5.4% number - did you fail to read on to see what happened afterwards? To 81.8% of them within one year, explained in the very same paragraph?

Do you see how that 81.8% figure undermines your argument?

[nimih]

The 81.8% is out of the 5.4%. (In fact, it is out of a subpopulation of the 5.4%--it is the rate at which, given that the person died by suicide, but survived the first attempt, died within the subsequent year).

From the study:

> During the study period, 81/1,490 enrollees (5.4%) died by suicide. Of the 81, 48 (59.3%) perished on index attempt; 27 of the surviving 33 index attempt survivors (81.8%) killed themselves within a year.

[alexashka]

Ok I've had to double check to see where we've gone wrong.

5.4% is the number of people who died by suicide out of the studied sample. It is not the number of suicide attempts resulting in death, as implied by the original parent.

It is actually 59.3% success on first attempt, and of those who failed on first try, 81.8% succeed in subsequent attempts within a year.

[nimih]

I think you're still a bit confused. 81.8% refers to, out of the population which _both_ failed in their first suicide attempt, _and also_ eventually (within the study observation window, i.e. 3-25 years) dies of suicide, the proportion who die within year 1 rather than years 2-25. In fact, the study authors point out that they found follow-up attempts _less_ likely to succeed compared to the initial attempt:

> Of the cohort, 3.2% (48/1,490) died on index attempt, whereas only 2.3% (33/1,442) of index attempt survivors went on to kill themselves. This drop in the suicide rate for survivors compared with those dead on index attempt held true for both men and women (males: from 6.7% to 4.8%; women: from 1.2% to 0.9%).

[alexashka]

Thanks, I am no longer confused.

[ShamelessC]

> Ok I've had to double check to see where we've gone wrong.

It's okay to admit you're wrong without these sort of "include everyone else involved" type of statements.

[napierzaza]

It seems like one of the main issues is that vets have super easy access to a quick and painless death, as well as extreme familiarity with it. Just like having access to a gun makes you more likely to suicide. In general people with more access are more likely to commit suicide when they feel that way. Not trying to undermine that they also feel extra depressed due to the job though. I've seen a few of my pets be euthanize and it was torture.

[3seashells]

Xylacin syringe into the brainstem.. Nothing comes back from that.