[Tade0]

> If evidence suggests that many dogs, like many humans, misbehave because they are struggling with emotions and anxiety, why do so many pet owners and trainers look to punishment as the solution, rather than addressing the emotions directly?

Same reason why so many people do the same to children - they're set in their views and are unwilling accept that they might be wrong.

Also, it's less work (at lesst in the short term). All the more reason to continue.

[mikepurvis]

As a parent who has had to do a bunch of this work, I think a big missing piece in much of the dialogue around it is understanding how exactly the “gentle” style of engagement isn’t just indulging, tolerating, excusing, and even rewarding bad behaviour.

The official word is that adopting a gentle and emotionally aware stance has to be paired with a strong sense of boundaries, but it’s often very unclear how to differentiate between which part of the response to a given situation should be the boundary (“we don’t speak like that in this family; I won’t be responding until you talk to me in a respectful way”) vs the emotional deep dive (“it sounds like you’re processing some big feelings right now, let’s talk about what’s going on for you”).

Instead of engaging with the truly challenging parts of the approach, a lot of advocates model kind of what’s in the parent post— condescension, dismissal, and an assumption that the other party is simply unable or unwilling to learn how to do something that’s obviously superior.

[brudgers]

I had to work on this alot too because my chi...well all happy families are alike but each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.

a gentle and emotionally aware stance has to be paired with a strong sense of boundaries,

To me, a strong sense of self if probably more useful.

Establishing boundaries presumes an expertise that doesn't exist.

Parenting is learned on the job.

Learned over the better part of a lifetime.

Or all of it since we learn parenting by being parented as children...from people who were learning on the job.

we don’t speak like that in this family; I won’t be responding until you talk to me in a respectful way

Are you prepared to walk the walk and kick your child out of the family for responding with "fuck you"?

Never mind that withholding conversation from a child is punishment?

"Please don't talk to me like that. I don't like it," is the simplest thing that might work. It's also a good way to talk to other people. Because human relationships boil down to a good will, negotiation, or violence.

Boundaries bound operating on goodwill.

[kevviiinn]

I think what the OP was getting at is perfectly exemplified in this comment. A person who is set in their ways and unable to comprehend the emotional state of another being, just viewing the resulting behaviors as purely "bad"

[mikepurvis]

At risk of attacking a straw man, do you believe it's ever possible to have a "bad" behaviour? When an adult throws a temper tantrum to an airplane stewardess, is that also something we should look on with "comprehension of another being's emotional state", or is it in fact entitlement, selfishness, poor regulation, and unrealistic expectations? Is that behaviour something we can agree on as being "bad"?

I think that some of this debate comes down to what the ultimate purpose of parenting is— is it to be an eternal safe space for our kids? Somewhere that they can always feel understood and welcomed and heard, where they'll never be asked to consider if their feelings reflect an accurate perception of the world, whether their attitudes have shaped how they experience certain situations, or if their own words and actions have helped create a circumstance they're now frustrated by? Or is parenting about preparing kids to ultimately become citizens of the real world, where teachers, colleagues, bosses, neighbours, doctors, police, airline staff and others will require a certain standard of behaviour and will have basically zero interest in whatever your "reasons" are for why that standard cannot be met at a particular moment.

In truth, the answer is somewhere in the middle. The best parents can both be that safe and listening space, while also gently challenging us to grow and do better (yes, even into adulthood). But I don't see a lot of that nuance from many gentle parenting advocates, who sound much more hard-line, casting non-believers as being "set in their ways", and often responding pretty negatively to parents' fatigue with the extremely exhausting work that it can be constantly taking on and processing the emotions of everyone around them.

On the other hand, there are now a bunch of voices calling for a more balanced approach than what one might find on Instagram and Tiktok:

- https://mashable.com/article/gentle-parenting-social-media-p...

- https://www.parents.com/parenting/better-parenting/style/gen...

- https://filterfreeparents.com/gentle-parenting-is-physically...

- https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/13/style/millennial-earnest-...

[FrankyHollywood]

> But I don't see a lot of that nuance from many gentle parenting advocates

I see friends taking parenting courses, and raising their kids 'by the rules'. It seems so mechanical, and, from the behavior I see it isn't working very well either, just and endless battle against 'the rules'.

My kids are a bit older now, and looking back I see intuition is important in raising kids. You know your own boundaries, and can be strict about them, but you also love your kids, and can even enjoy and laugh seeing them push against rules and discovering their the world. A nice read on this is 'French children don't throw food' [1]

Trusting yourself and your kids makes you less likely to be angry or scream at them. I found raising your voice in many cases just means you don't trust yourself and you don't trust that your kids respect you.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/jan/20/french-childre...

[thanatropism]

> I found raising your voice in many cases just means you don't trust yourself and you don't trust that your kids respect you.

My current working theory is that toddler temper tantrums are this. I mean from the opposite direction; the kid is not on solid footing yet and doesn't think the grownups take them seriously enough.

For the longest while we were making the utmost effort to do the respectful parenting thing, but as he's growing to have very strong opinions that are not always reasonable, this is... harder.

[FrankyHollywood]

Oh yes this is hard... When the kid has a strong opinion, raises voice or just tries to lure you into a discussion or fight. That's the moment where the parent is easily tricked.

Staying calm in such a moment can do wonders and de-escalate, but it's hard, especially when I'm tired and need a moment of quiet :)

[kevviiinn]

I find it rather strange that you conflate the emotional state of a human whose brain is still rapidly developing with that of an adult. You can't possibly believe that those two things are even close to comparable

[sidewndr46]

The idea that asking someone how they are feeling is an "emotional deep dive" is a portion of the problem. Asking a family member how they are feeling should not be considered an in-depth activity.

[SpaghettiCthulu]

> The idea that asking someone how they are feeling is an "emotional deep dive" is a portion of the problem.

I would argue that the "emotional deep dive" example is not merely asking how someone is feeling.

> it sounds like you’re processing some big feelings right now, let’s talk about what’s going on for you

Speaking from experience when I was a kid, being spoken to in this manner always felt belittling.

[throwaway646465]

> Speaking from experience when I was a kid, being spoken to in this manner always felt belittling.

I think a lot of it comes down to how people usually communicate with the kid.

Like I can’t possibly imagine my Dad saying “Looks like we got some big feelings here, want to talk about it?” It sounds so silly and patronizing.

But a “Boona, I can’t help unless you tell me what’s wrong” is completely normal to my ears.

For all intents and purposes they’re the same question though. I think kids just just know us more than we give them credit for, so if you pull out the “Journal approved parenting voice” when that’s not how you talk normally they’ll react accordingly.

[Tronno]

Nothing about either phrasing sounds condescending to me. However, communication is more than words.

You can ask about feelings with a gentle tone, a supportive gaze at eye level, and a hand on the shoulder. Or you can do it from above with an eye roll and a sarcastic bite.

I can easily see a frustrated parent giving in to their own emotions and using the latter approach.

[brudgers]

In some families, conversations are weaponized. The question might feel belittling because it is used used to belittle.

Questions often reflect status relationships where some people have the privilege to expect answers and thus carry a demeanor of expecting answers to their questions.

Questions are used as a reminder that the other person is obligated to answer.

[SpaghettiCthulu]

Well, you might be somewhat right, but that sort of talk never came from my parents. It always came from authority figures at school or summer camps.

[SamoyedFurFluff]

I think it is an in-depth activity, actually. I can’t recall a single time in my childhood where my being defiant, tardy, intentionally boundary pushing, fighting people or otherwise annoyingly rebellious has been responded to with asking what are my feelings that are making me want to do that behavior. I’m just told to quit it or $punishment.

[asdfman123]

It is if you were never really asked how you were feeling growing up.

I didn’t realize I could sit and process my feelings until I was in college.

And honestly, my upbringing was pretty stable as far as things go—my parents were weird, but whose weren’t.

[chewbacha]

> Asking a family member how they are feeling should not be considered an in-depth activity.

Why not?

Of all the people in the world I ask “how are you feeling” it’s my family that I both expect and receive the most in-depth answers and questions. These are people I live with and live with me, our emotions are deeply rooted and entwined with each other.

[FooBarBizBazz]

It's something for a trained professional to do, see...

[Ensorceled]

> Same reason why so many people do the same to children

I'd extend that to all humans and all animals.

Many people can't even wrap their heads around NOT using punishment to control behaviour and react very negatively to the idea of treatment or interventions that, in their mind, look like "rewarding" the "bad" behaviour.

[rcme]

Punishment, aka negative reinforcement, can be required in some cases. For instance, if your dog learns they can jump on the counter to steal food, then there isn't really a way to train that out of them with positive reinforcement. That doesn't mean yelling at a dog per se, but using a loud sound or might mousetrap on the counter can help discourage the behavior. "Timeout" is also a very common dog training strategy.

[throwaway646465]

Ehhhh, much like children it really depends on the dog.

I have a counter surfer at home, and we tried the negative reinforcement, time-outs, loud noises ect, and all it did was give her food aggression where she never had any before.

Training leave it and removing opportunities for her to steal worked out way better long term. Now if she finds a chicken bone or something on a walk I can just take it from her when before when she’d do her damndest to hide it.

[rcme]

> Training leave it and removing opportunities for her to steal worked out way better long term.

Yea, that's what we did to, but I don't really consider that training the dog not to jump on the counter.

[Ensorceled]

Punishment and negative reinforcement are different things, but it can be a lot of work to structure positive or negative reinforcement for situations like jumping up on the counter to steal food.

[afterburner]

They're also upset or angry, which leads to lashing out which tends to be punitive in nature.

They are failing to control their own emotions.

[logifail]

> Same reason why so many people do the same to children - they're set in their views and are unwilling accept that they might be wrong

There are plenty who believe that withdrawing privileges is an entirely normal and appropriate response when children misbehave.

This isn't punishment, although some children consider it to be.

[iepathos]

Actually, it's the definition of punishment: inflicting or imposing penalties as retribution for an offense. Withdrawing privileges is an imposed penalty. idk if it's appropriate or not, but it's objectively punishment not just an opinion children have.

[logifail]

> Actually, it's the definition of punishment: inflicting or imposing penalties as retribution for an offense.

Children are not small adults, but they are surprisingly capable of understanding incentives.

"If you behave well you can have ice cream. If you behave badly, you don't get ice cream. It's your choice."

It's awful to teach children that behaviour doesn't matter. Actions do have consequences.

[Ensorceled]

This is still punishment, even if you believe it's for their own good that "actions do have consequences".

You can't just redefine it as "not punishment" because you want to use that method in child rearing.

[logifail]

> This is still punishment, even if you believe it's for their own good that "actions do have consequences"

"Actions have consequences" as a statement isn't really up for much debate, it's more of a observation on how the universe works. If we fall far enough, we hurt outselves.

Gravity isn't punishing us when we fall, even if it may feel like that at times - the scars on my right arm from a cycling accident last year are still visible.

[Ensorceled]

"Actions have consequences" is explaining why you are punishing your child.

I'm not saying you're a bad parent for punishing your child, I'm saying you could be a better parent if you stopped leaning on punishment as a parenting tool.

Also, stop telling your child you aren't punishing them because they will ALWAYS remember that bullshit. At least own up to the fact that you are punishing them and tell them why.

[throwaway173738]

It’s called negative punishment, and is pretty ineffective at eliciting the desired behavior. Positive reinforcement is the only way to spotlight the behavior you want by rewarding it. Punishment is more like learning the shape of a room by stubbing your toes on the walls. You’ll eventually get it but only after trying everything else you can think of.

[logifail]

> It’s called negative punishment

It isn't:

"[..] people confuse negative reinforcement with punishment, but these are two different concepts"[0]

[0] https://www.webmd.com/parenting/what-to-know-about-negative-...

[pseudalopex]

"Negative punishment is taking something pleasurable away to decrease the behavior. An example of negative punishment is taking away a toy if your child hits their sibling with it."

[afterburner]

Telling a child they're not being punished as you punish them is gaslighting.

[Ensorceled]

"It's for your own good so it's not punishment."

It is amazing the mental hoops people can jump through.

[logifail]

> It is amazing the mental hoops people can jump through

Our eldest had his computer briefly confiscated not that long ago. He was, of course, cross with me when it happened.

The day afterwards he came to me and thanked me for taking it away(!)

Him: "I was spending way too much time playing games, I see that now" Me: "You're welcome to have it back" Him: "No, I'm not sure I want it in my room. It's too much of a distraction"