[charstacker]

Consider the following scenario: You're pleased and content one minute, thinking your life is going fine the next. You have a few minutes to kill, so you log onto Facebook and begin scrolling...

First, you notice a friend's post stating that she has accepted her ideal job.

Then you read a coworker's too political rant.

You continue browsing and see a video of your neighbour enjoying a fantastic tropical vacation.

And now your cousin has uploaded a before and after photo that makes you want to hide your thighs for the rest of your life.

The next thing you know, you're second-guessing your profession, irritated by politics, wondering why you can't afford a trip, and researching your next diet.

Social media is nothing but roller coaster,

[sharadov]

No, it does not bother me. I am one of those people who feels happy when something good is happening in other people's lives.

That other person who got that job put time into it and achieved it. Good for them.

Someone lost a shit ton of weight and looks ripped. That's motivation for me to lift too and eat better.

It comes down to you, are you using that as fuel to motivate you or are you seething inside and burning with envy?

I honestly believe that envy is the thief of joy and if you allow it to consume you it will destroy you.

The only people that turn me off are those folks who make political shit posts, but I don't follow them.

[colpabar]

> It comes down to you, are you using that as fuel to motivate you or are you seething inside and burning with envy?

> I honestly believe that envy is the thief of joy and if you allow it to consume you it will destroy you.

It's nice that you are able to do this, but most don't use social media this way. They see successful, beautiful people doing interesting things and they feel sad that they can't do the same. Can't you empathize?

[BhavdeepSethi]

So true. It's almost ironic how they mention they feel good when something good happens to someone else, but when not everyone may feel the same, then it's their problem.

"Why can't this be happening to me?" is considered envy, but "Why are you not happy for others like me?" is considered moral high ground.

[ben174]

(not op) Empathize yes, but I would encourage people to try as much as they possibly can to change their viewpoint from envy to joy. I think that's a healthier solution than hiding from it.

[lavascornedoven]

What is presented on social media is recognized as profile building by prof. Mueller, a recently developed phenomenom that he named profilicity in his book "You and your profile". I've always found all the shining social media accounts as inauthentic and distateful, but the book helped me realize how I developed profiles for myself and also how to recognize them by others. The end result: now I see the profiles just as highly currated expression of one's identity and don't stress at all about it.

[xtracto]

This made me think: Back in the 90s when I was a teen there were several magazines here in Mexico (ERES, Tú) and the "socials" section in the local newspaper which dedicated to show you the amazing life of socialtes and other famous (or not so famous) people. Teenage girls and boys used to buy and "read" those magazines to get up to speed on the latest gossip, but also just to see what these people were doing.

Do you think that was bad for kids those days?

[sizzle]

compare reading a monthly magazine back then to today where it takes milliseconds to doom scroll through your unlimited, hyper-optimized for engagement “happiness highlight reel” social media newsfeed in the palm of your hand with 24/7 availability… yes it’s much much worse for kids today and both psychologically and behaviorally.

[OOPMan]

I think there is a pretty key difference which is pretty obvious.

Said obvious difference being the near real-time interactive nature of social media.

[NoPicklez]

I think it's normal to be happy for others. But that doesn't mean it doesn't leave us performing a little introspection with regards to our own lives.

Of which we think, why aren't I losing weight? Why aren't I getting married yet? Hmm why haven't I been able to go on a vacation yet? Oh because I might not be overly happy in my job, but I just saw my friend start what they think is their dream career.

You can be left questioning our own place when you are constantly being shown the highlights of others lives.

[ayaen]

I too feel happy when something good happens in someone's life. I am sure a lot of people do. That is not by itself the origin of envy. So where do I look next? Once the spectacle is over - at myself of course! I see my shortcomings and from there begin the possibility for all kinds of problems and at the same time improvements in my life. What course does my mind take though? I can certainly hear the voice of resentment in my head when I see something I think is "good for them!" But I must quieten that voice and turn to what is the better approach - to improve myself. This takes effort. So no it is not as simple as you put it here. I am sure you are aware of this struggle. This is not something new.

What is new is the frequency with which one is presented with things that reproach ones sense of well-being. Are they eating better food? Living better, happier lives? Having more beautiful babies? And why?

So it is only probable that one will slip into a stupor- with so many shortcomings and so many people out there.

Hope that made sense.

[id]

If other people find their ideal job, have a tropical vacation, etc. it makes me feel... good? Those are good things in general, although the tropical vacation might make me also feel concerned about the climate.

The problems I have with social media are that

- it steals a lot of time

- a lot of content gets me by evoking negative emotion

- it's taxing to get exposed to so many different ideas, clips, heated discussions, etc. Makes we wanna throw away my phone and live in the woods

[eafkuor]

> If other people find their ideal job, have a tropical vacation, etc. it makes me feel... good? Those are good things in general, although the tropical vacation might make me also feel concerned about the climate.

If this would be your genuine reaction, congratulations. You belong to the 0.001% of the population that would feel this way.

[tappio]

I feel content with my life and I'm genuinely happy when my friends accomplish something. I can't remember when I was seriously envious last time. Sometimes, there may be a moment when I feel slight envy, but then I realize that they decided to put effort into that, and I put my effort into something else. Time is limited. Everyone has problems; ups and downs.

I've mostly quit social media because the majority of active people are not interesting, it's full of ad-garbage and heated up debates about dis-interesting topics.

I guess I'm also in the 0.0001%. Though, I do think it's much higher than that. The dissatisfied people are just the most vocal.

[ss2003]

Hacker News is social media

[sodality2]

It's a news forum. Only loosely does it fit in "social media". Would you call reddit.com/r/technews or alike a "social media"?

[madeofpalk]

...yes. Reddit is a social media website. HN is a small, niche social media website.

[sorry_outta_gas]

yes

[tappio]

I agree. I actually pointed out in another comment that the term social media does not make any sense. Everyone has a different definition of social media. We can't really generalize findings on all platforms. The studies focusing on social media are often missing that it does not really make any sense to use that word. Are Twitter and Facebook the same? Can we generalize findings on one to another? No we can't. Talking about "social media" this way does not make much sense. It also hides out the fact that in the end everything is about the internet and digital content, together forming the new mass medium which is actually the relevant unifying factor. I'm glad you picked that up!

[rmbyrro]

Come on folks, calling social something as nerdy as HN is hell of a stretch...

[mitchdoogle]

Nerds are some of the most social people - they love talking to other nerds

[cortesoft]

Are you sure it is that rare? I find it shocking that most people don't feel joy when the people they care about are happy. My assumption is that depressed people would feel worse, but people who are generally happy themselves would feel happy when someone else is feeling happy.

Where do you get your assumption that only 1 in 100,000 people are happy for others? The fact that there are at least two people who feel this way commenting in this chat seems to imply your numbers are off. I don't think the percentage of depressed people in the world is that high.

[laputan_machine]

If a friend gets a great job or starts to live a healthy life you don't feel great for them? I don't believe that puts me in the minority of people, not a chance.

[sdevonoes]

> If a friend gets a great job or starts to live a healthy life you don't feel great for them?

We can feel happy (for them) and unsatisfied (with ourselves) at the same time. Multiply that by N, and well, that's a recipe for disaster (at least for me). I know, I know, we shall not compare ourselves with others, but hey, I'm not a machine, I have my imperfections which I am polishing from time to time, but in the meanwhile social media makes everything worse in average (for me).

[prawn]

I travel more than average so I am happy seeing friends going on trips. It's rare that their trip looks better than what I've just done or have planned next. But I could absolutely see how someone might spectate a feed full of holidays and feel from the aggregate like everyone else is constantly travelling, while they grind away at work.

[cableshaft]

Meanwhile my family's barely travelled the past three years due to Covid concerns, tighter budgets (wife's income got severely impacted from the pandemic for a while, while this year we had to unexpectedly pay a good vacation's worth of taxes), and having to use PTO for other unrelated things. Most I've done is a few weekend trips to neighboring states.

[malauxyeux]

Since this is about the effect of social media on mood, I'll chime in to say that it's the opposite for me.

Seeing people conspicuously consume extravagant leisure travel – and the associated resources – brings to mind global warming and how few people actually give a damn about it in any meaningful way.

It also reminds me of what brazen liars many people are. In cases where I've known the people posting Facebook/Insta content about their amazing trips, in about half of those, the reality is that the trip was far less than amazing than their posts would suggest.

As an example, one woman I know took her family across the Pacific to Thailand on a two-week vacation. By their accounts, they had a pretty rotten time, even considering moving their return date forward. But, the Facebook narrative was glowing. Four years later, the woman's Facebook cover photo is of a Thai Buddhist temple from that trip. (She's not a Buddhist. The photo is purely for aesthetics and social signaling.)

It seems to me that this kind of behavior feeds into a loop that encourages other people to consume finite resources and then post about their "amazing" (though often non-amazing) trips. And so the cycle continues.

And that really gets me down. I don't go on Facebook very often.

[k_sze]

One could be “happy”* for a friend and also feel shitty about themself.

“Damn. Matthew has changed jobs 3 times in the past 5 years already, each time to a better paying job. Look at you. You’re still stuck in this shitty job because you suck.”

This is literally the kind of thought I have had in the past.

[*] Are you “happy” in a polite way? Or are you genuinely happy?

[laputan_machine]

Genuinely happy, of course! I want to see my friends and family succeed in life and enjoy it. I don't feel like a lesser person in any way, I feel proud of them.

[johnnymorgan]

You've never felt Envy towards someone?

I kind of find that hard to believe.

that was all OP was referring too and it's well documented. Honestly you come off as dishonest in this convo as it's quiet a normal emotion to feel and it's not negative per say, it can lead to negative actions but can also push people to do better.

"It doesn't matter if the slight is real or not, its the perception of the person that matters" -- Jimmy Hoffa

[sean_the_geek]

If you feel truly happy about someone else but at the same time not let it reflect on you, then I would say you are minority. The first part of my sentence is achievable and is genuinely positive , at least in a way. The second part - not letting it reflect on you - is IMO most people struggle.

[amelius]

What kind of therapy is recommended to get into this state of being?

[sanitycheck]

I'd feel exactly the same way as you about that, and if we truly are in a tiny minority perhaps that does explain a lot about the world.

[dwringer]

Superbia versus invidia, I suppose.

[dwringer]

Indeed, it's even possible to be genuinely happy for someone but still feel inferiority and discouragement when trying to compare aspects of one's own life with others.

It's great that not everyone struggles with that, but different people struggle with different emotions. Maybe we can all agree that whatever their nature and whatever we call them is beside the point, (I think) that social media engagement optimizations have notoriously exploited these effects as they relate to our attention and habits, taking many people on an unwanted emotional roller-coaster ride for arguably unhealthy amounts of time.

[grapeskin]

I had that feeling. It pushed me to move to something better recently after stagnating for years.

It’s an ambivalent feeling. I was definitely stressed for months thinking about how much worse my life is as a consequence of comparing myself to someone else. But at the same time, I’ve lifted myself up to a higher standard since that stress turned into motivation. That friend who I felt envious of is also happy for my success, and I’m also happy for his.

[SyzygistSix]

That invokes the possibility for a better future for me as well. "Oh cool, a strategy that I can perhaps use to improve my life."

[chenxi9649]

I don't think you're in the minority either. We experience joy from the joy of those around us.

I think the disagreement here mostly stems from a different definition of "friend". For most ppl, the friends they see on their FB/IG feed aren't actually "friends"... but more like acquaintances. Often times they're people that you've only met a few times and haven't seen in many years.

Though, even with close friends, sometimes one can't help but compare. And since social media only highlight the highlights, you'll naturally feel bad when comparisons happen.

Seems that with apps like BeReal/Locket taking off in the GenZ market this is starting to shift a little.

[id]

But even when it comes to acquaintances, when I hear about their great new job or vacation, I don't feel envious or bad. I compare myself to other people, yes, and of course I'd like to have some of the things I see, but not to the point that I would feel bad. Does every story about someone being successful make you feel bad? I doubt it, as that is not my personal experience at all.

[clausewitz]

You keep grouping envy with inherently negative mindsets. Sometimes envy is just envy. As in, "damn, John is married with kids and a great job, and I'm still single and scraping by, I gotta get my shit together". I am not upset that John has these things, I am happy my friend John is happy. It also served as a reminder of what I want for myself, and thus, my envy is a motivator.

[bennyp101]

An actual friend then sure, but most people I know have like 500+ “friends” so I think people are less likely to have that reaction to everyone in the timeline.

[laputan_machine]

Oh I see yeah we're couched in the language of FB. I meant real friends, I noped out of most social media (ex. HN) in 2017. I don't miss it!

[bennyp101]

Same (apart from a fake FB profile so I know what's happening in the local village groups).

I never really had a problem with FB, just the constant cringy posts made me leave!

But dumping Twitter a couple of years ago was the best thing I ever did - it was just making me angry every time I started browsing it!

[weatherlite]

A lot of this depends on how one's life is going. It is easy and natural to be genuinely happy for others when you are satisfied with your own life. But if I became unemployed and my friend got into Google then yeah...happiness level will be limited. There is a sound evolutionary explanation on why that is so.

[id]

This sure plays a big role, I agree. Maybe I would feel some envy in that example, but I would also not let it consume me, and still feel happy for my friend at the same time.

[tdudzik]

I think you can feel great for them and bad for yourself at the same time

[emteycz]

But why would I? It's not like they took something from me. I am the lord of my destiny.

And how is it in any way different from the same people telling me this stuff at a pub? I don't think social media has anything to do with this.

[coldtea]

Social status and the satisfaction (or lack thereof) derived from it are relative. This has been studied and hammered on again and again, not to mention the entirety of human history (and tons of lucrative rackets) attest to it.

And being "the lord of your destiny" is already not applicable to most people, except in an abstract, meaningless sense that a person can always decide for themselves. That doesn't mean they can wish reality away. (E.g. "Yeah, I have $200K in student debt, no job prospects after looking for 10 months, and my spouse got sick, but I can do whatever I decide").

[alickz]

>But why would I? It's not like they took something from me. I am the lord of my destiny.

Envy. You can be genuinely happy for them, but then be sad that your life isn't going as well. I think this compounded by the idea that a lot of people don't feel like the lords of their destiny, more leaves in a river unable to fight the currents.

Which of course adds to the stress of "Why can't I be better and more like [friend]?". Which may or may not lead to productive self-reflection (more likely not in my experience)

>And how is it in any way different from the same people telling me this stuff at a pub? I don't think social media has anything to do with this.

Scale, I would imagine. If it was one or two friends I think it's easier to rationalise, but when you see friends-of-friends and celebrities "living their best life", every day, while you struggle to keep your head above water, it takes a toll.

[k_sze]

Maybe you’re lucky to not be plagued by inferiority complex and/or impostor syndrome.

[mojzu]

Personally I'm happy when good things are happening for family, friends and other people, but depending on my mood it can also trigger feelings of FOMO/anxiety (why isn't that happening for me, what am I missing, etc.). My guess is depending on the person and their current state that falling into a pattern of focussing on the latter rather then the former is easier when using social media. Which can then be a bit of a vicious cycle because cutting yourself off from social media may also mean you miss events that you could have participated in

[luxuryballs]

Yeah I’m with you, I think the response itself might be an indicator of a certain personality type or if negative then a clue of unhealthy thinking habits.

[conjectures]

Yeah, tbh 'friends' are people for whom, when good stuff happens to them I feel happy about that.

[jtbayly]

“Every time a friend succeeds, I die a little.” Gore Vidal

This is not a rare feeling.

[ycombinete]

I once heard someone say, "nothing in life hurts more than the success of a friend"

[SyzygistSix]

That is a truly warped mindset.

[weatherlite]

Most of us commenting here live in competitive, capitalistic societies and a lot of our sense of self worth and self esteem comes from comparison (mostly comparing to our friends, colleagues and siblings) - and the metrics as we all know are stuff like career/money and other social status metrics. Feelings of envy are completely involuntary btw so there is no need to pretend like feeling them or not feeling is some kind of moral virtue - you don't control what you feel or don't feel. It sounds reasonable to me to speculate that these feelings have an evolutionary basis - e.g when you were envious of your neighbor's cave you felt crappy and worked harder on your own cave, thus increasing your own survival rate and the prevalence of envious genes. We are a biological creature designed for survival and envy seems very important to me in achieving it.

Does that mean we have to be slaves to our genes? I hope not. People like Sam Harris and others offer all kinds of methods to detach and "win" over our biology.

[throwawaycuriou]

While feelings may be involuntary, this does not mean we are beholden to them. Maybe envy is what happens when a consciousness is discontent and allows these feelings to overpower.

[AnIdiotOnTheNet]

I sincerely do not believe that this behavior is genetic. As you've said, many of us live in competitive capitalist societies, we are conditioned into a socipathic mindset by advertising, and educated to reduce the people in our lives to numbers on a spreadsheet. This is not how humans are meant to function, we have been conditioned and trained to think this way.

[bell-cot]

If true, it seems easy to optimize for your own happiness (or lack of hurt) by replacing more-likely-to-succeed friends with less-likely-to-succeed ones...

[sleepdreamy]

Agreed. Majority of people are jealous creatures. It's embedded into American individualism/Capitalism.

It's an end sum game of who can acquire more money/resources if we break away all the bullshit.

I don't share my wins because the majority of people are jealous creatures

[ac2022]

I think this depends on persons internal happiness. Happy people feel happier and sad people get sadder. This is based on my own experiences.

In my 20s, I was as happy as one can be. I posted a lot on social media and enjoyed posts of my friends. Loved food posts cause that gave me new resturants to try out.

Vacation pictures, I couldn't afford a nice vacation but vacationed via those pictures. Asked friends to post more pictures.

Friend got a job, it meant time for a party.

Now I am not as happy as I used to be. Now I do get annoyed with food and vacation photos. Feel jealous when friends are promoted. I rarely go on social media but when I do I immediately feel bad about myself.

Maybe I am just getting old.

Oh and yes when I was on Facebook, no one posted about politics. In fact, I remember reading my first few political posts of my friends and thinking whats wrong with them.

[sharadov]

You said it - your internal state is reflected when you look at social media.

[2pEXgD0fZ5cF]

> If other people find their ideal job, have a tropical vacation, etc. it makes me feel... good?

This sounds like a misunderstanding. Being happy for friends (real friends not "500 Facebook friends" friends) is not mutually exclusive with these news invoking bad feelings inside you (shame, feeling of inadequacy etc.)

[id]

It's not a misunderstanding. I'm also happy for complete strangers. Jeff Bezos is enjoying his Amazon money? Great for him.

Also, I can't relate to feelings of shame or inadequacy because someone has something good happening to them. If anything, it motivates me to achieve the same.

[antiframe]

> Also, I can't relate to feelings of shame or inadequacy because someone has something good happening to them. If anything, it motivates me to achieve the same.

Those two aspects feel like they are opposing one another. On the one hand, you claim to never feel inadequate, yet when you see others achieving something you haven't yet achieved you claim it motivates you to achieve the same. How is it that you feel adequately achieved in some area yet another's greater success motivates you to achieve more? Most people I know would label that feeling "inadequacy". They don't yet have something they want and strive to get it.

I think the way you label these emotions is unique relative to everyone else I've meet. You're the first person who can't relate to feeling inadequacy yet at the same time feels motivated by things others have achieved.

[cortesoft]

> On the one hand, you claim to never feel inadequate, yet when you see others achieving something you haven't yet achieved you claim it motivates you to achieve the same

That doesn't mean you are feeling inadequate. Being inspired doesn't mean you feel bad about yourself.

For example, whenever I watch really good basketball, it makes me want to go out and play myself. When I see someone playing a fun video game, it makes me want to play. I don't feel inadequate, I just want to participate in the fun and challenge.

[antiframe]

Maybe I'm using the word incorrectly then. There are two ways I can imagine feeling inadequate when seeing, for example, a post of someone on a Hawaiian vacation:

1. I have inadequate resources. I can never afford such fancy lodgings, etc. This is a pretty negative emotion.

2. I feel my vacationing has been inadequate. I should spend more time off with my loved ones. Where can I go in my time and dollar budget to better enjoy life?

I would call both feels one of being 'inadequate'. If I felt adequate, I would feel like I don't need any (more) vacations and not inspired to make any changes in my life.

At least that was my reading of id's comment that "If anything, it motivates me to achieve the same." Without any feeling of inadequacy, where does the motivation come from? Maybe I process these feelings differently than others, but for me without something to trigger the desire, I won't be motivated, and that trigger is in some sense something inadequate I want to improve about myself or my life.

[Teever]

To be clear here, what you're saying is that the feelings that others are describing are totally alien to you?

Like you can't understand that humans act this way in these situations?

I don't believe you.

[id]

I can understand, but I can't relate. I simply never had these feelings of envy, or it was too long ago to remember.

[jjulius]

Everybody sees/processes things differently.

[2pEXgD0fZ5cF]

I'm not doubting your ability to do that and I'm not saying that negative feelings come inherently with these kind of news. But surely you can see that these reactions can be pretty common for many people especially if they aren't happy with their own situations, and that those people can still feel happy when good things happen to others.

What I'm claiming is that a negative reaction (in terms of comparison) in this way and feeling happy for others are independent of each other.

[colpabar]

But you can see how some people may not think this way when they go online and see that seemingly everyone they've ever met is doing things that they can't afford or aren't able to do? If you can't relate, fine I guess, but what's the point of just saying "these problems don't affect me"?

[moffkalast]

> these news invoking bad feelings inside you (shame, feeling of inadequacy etc.)

Then perhaps it might make more sense to work on that instead, wouldn't it? I mean if we as a species became a little less jealous of each other, an utopia would be practically at hand.

[weatherlite]

Thought experiment - let's say you are the poorest person in your neighborhood. Would talking to your neighbors daily about their salaries really make you feel better? I mean them having money, even if more than you is a good thing according to you what you said.

[Enginerrrd]

Just FYI, Not everyone feels jealousy like you're suggesting here.

I know I never have. I never understood why people get so worked up about that sort of thing honestly. It never bothered me if someone wanted to date my ex, or if they had some sudden windfall, or are doing well.

But I see some people feel this intensely! I'm sympathetic, IMO, they don't choose to feel that way. But it's funny to me, if I were to walk down the street and see two people, and give each of them $5, it would be all smiles. But for a certain percentage of people, if I gave the person on the left $5 and the person on the right $100, they'd feel worse than when they had no money!

[weatherlite]

Never said everyone, but it's definitely prevalent. How prevalent could be an interesting discussion (I don't know the answer) but I have many reasons to believe most people do experience it from time to time based on my personal experience and how I interpret behavior of others. Also there is a biological/evolutionary incentive to be a bit envious and jealous which affirms my conviction that it is prevalent.

Moreover - how do you know you won't experience it in the future? Have you ever been unemployed for 4 years? Maybe being unemployed for 4 years would make you envious of a friend who just got a job in Google. Have you ever been with a woman you loved dearly only to find out she cheated on you and left you for another man? Maybe going through this traumatic experience would make you envious.

I'm just saying it's easy to be content when things are going well, indeed I don't feel much envy - but I'm super aware I am quite lucky. If things stop going well who knows what negative emotions would pop up - it won't be a picnic thats for sure.

[id]

This is interesting, I'm the same as you. I can't really explain why, and I don't think that I have higher morals or something like that.

If I played the ultimatum game, and the other person offered me 0$ out of $100, I would let them have their $100.

[id]

Yes, because if they made less money, it wouldn't help me at all (it could even hurt me because then they have nothing to share). In difficult personal situations, it has often helped me to know that at least others have it better.

[weatherlite]

> Yes, because if they made less money, it wouldn't help me at all

Let's continue this thought experiment - say with a flick of my fingers I made everyone in the world have half the money they have now - but I leave you with the same amount. So you are basically 2X richer than you were before. You say this doesn't help you at all - I think it actually increases your chances of finding housing, finding a mate, getting healthcare etc. Your material well being is established relative to others. If we expand the neighborhood example further - to city or country, it is obvious why the amount others have relative to you matters. In a world of infinite resources envy doesn't make sense, but in our world resources are limited.

[id]

Yeah, but you changed the thought experiment from neighbourhood to "everyone in the world". This obviously would have a much, much bigger impact on my relative wealth.

And even then, the economy is not a zero-sum game. It is possible to become wealthier without making others poorer. If I get healthcare, it doesn't mean that someone else needs to be denied healthcare.

[weatherlite]

> And even then, the economy is not a zero-sum game

I agree to an extent. If say GDP increases it usually means the economy does better which means you will get better services (healthcare, housing, personal safety for you and your children etc) so you have an interest in others doing well. However you also have an interest in not doing worse than most since as I said the amount of resources you can get is relative to others (resources is anything from housing to healthcare to your ability to find a mate). I think this principal hasn't changed much since us being cavemen and neither have feelings of envy.

And again, there is not much evolutionary since in having no feelings of envy at all since it's a big motivator for people. Many times you feel envy or anxiety and you do something about it to improve your lot. Its there for a reason (sure, often it goes out of hand which is unfortunate). Consider yourself fortunate for not feeling much envy (or at all)!

[DSingularity]

if only things were so ideal that we all could all process things with such detachment.

[cortesoft]

Sure, but there is only one person in the neighborhood that is the poorest. Most people are going to be around the average, so they aren't going to have the experience of everyone being richer than them.

[maximus-decimus]

Yes because it lets me know I can probably make more money?

[krnlpnc]

And helps build a personal network that could possibly help

[lrvick]

Having actually thrown away my phone, and lived in the woods, I can say I recommend the former as a fantastic mental health improvement. Living in the woods, not so much.

[orzig]

My very favorite part of HN is when someone is like “I’m actually an experienced XYZer, here’s the inside scoop” usually for a niche industry, now for niche lifestyles.

Thanks for the data point! Can you say more about the experience? Where did you end up?

[guerrilla]

What's wrong with the woods?

[RajT88]

Mosquitos. Poison ivy.

If he is growing his own food - a variety of animals will be eating the veggies. Rabbits, cabbage moths (evil bastards), groundhogs, raccoons...

[guerrilla]

Cabbage moths are the worst... The other things seem pretty avoidable though...

[RajT88]

I guess the other animals there's strategies to deal with them.

Poison ivy sneaks up on you. Young plants can be hard to see, and if you're like me, you won't know you've been exposed for a few days... And then it's ALL OVER.

[nonrandomstring]

> Makes we wanna throw away my phone and live in the woods

What I tried to aim for in Digital Vegan 1[] is to get people thinking about tech as a healthy balance.

It is actually rather common to have these extreme swings, all or nothing, total technological connection or living off berries in a woodland shack. It's called splitting in psychology, and the conditions around technology are geared to maximise it.

That's partly because it is so aggressive, in it's marketing, and peer pressure, in it's network effects created by deliberate lack of interoperability, by the way it is forced upon people. Young people are constantly bullied into over-connection by the idea they will be "left behind", that they will "miss out", and that a total cybernetic society of "ubiquitous" technology is "inevitable". All a total crock of shit of course. Nobody wants that except a few silicon valley pushers. But if you are immersed in that toxic narrative, which comes through the medium itself, it's hard for anyone to exercise rational choice, self-control and use technology in a moderate, healthy way.

So to me it makes sense to define "hacker" as someone who has mastery over technology. A master is not dominated by their own creations and desires. Part of mastery is choosing exactly how much, and what type of technology to use, and not allowing other people to foist that upon you. Real hackers make technological choices that may marginalise them, instead of just following the crowd.

[1] https://digitalvegan.net

[funcDropShadow]

> So to me it makes sense to define "hacker" as someone who has mastery over technology. A master is not dominated by their own creations and desires. Part of mastery is choosing exactly how much, and what type of technology to use, and not allowing other people to foist that upon you.

I like that definition and they way you argue. But don't forget that i.e. Meta and all other social networks are paying hords of hackers to screw with your emotions. I.e. you have a really capable opponent.

Why do I claim that social networks and other pay hackers to screw with our emotions? Actually I am convinced they don't care at all about the emotions of their users. They only care about their attention. Since, that is what is being sold to advertisers. Therefore, they do anything to prohibit users from staying in control of their social media use. That doesn't mean that it is impossible to use social media responsibly and healthy, but it is not easy.

[nonrandomstring]

I think you make a really good point. One should in no way underestimate the strength of an adversary. Nor the extent of ones own vulnerabilities. These guys have almost unlimited powers of money to employ PhDs in psychology, UX "attention engineering", disinformation, and other kinds of manipulation. Therefore "self-hacking" is kind of where it's at for this stage of the battle.

The plus side is that:

1) We know what they're up to now, and that is half the struggle.

2) We know that they are indeed adversaries (enemies of democracy and mental health), and that is also important.

Past that point, even a small number of us who are well educated, resourceful, and committed to clear communication, can have a significant impact. At the very least we can defend ourselves and help others to build intellectual self-defence.

And we are changing things. Even two years ago this discussion and the comments in this thread would have been unthinkable. We would have been shouted down by social media zealots and labelled "weirdos" (which I think is the very essence of hacker spirit - proud to be on the "weird" side of the fight right now).

[coldtea]

>If other people find their ideal job, have a tropical vacation, etc. it makes me feel... good?

As if regular people don't compare themselves with others and just enjoy the success of everybody, without considering if they are falling behind or not?

[SyzygistSix]

The healthy spin on that is seeing possibilities for making progress towards one's own goals. Someone losing weight or getting fit/getting a new cert, etc makes me think "I can do that!"

[id]

You can compare yourself and enjoy the success of someone else.

[coldtea]

In limited capacity, in regular life, yes.

In social media, the constant highlights of the successes of other people makes you miserable for yourself, whether you feel happy for others too or not.

Besides an experience many can verify, it's also quite well studied, including in the linked article.

[cortesoft]

> In social media, the constant highlights of the successes of other people makes you miserable for yourself

That might be how it makes you (and others) feel, but that doesn't mean everyone feels that way. There are people on this thread trying to say that it doesn't make them feel that way, but they keep being dismissed. The studies don't say EVERYONE feels that way, so to act like they are WRONG about how they feel is overly dismissive.

[NoPicklez]

I think it's normal to be happy for others. But that doesn't mean it doesn't leave us performing a little introspection with regards to our own lives.

Of which we think, why aren't I losing weight? Why aren't I getting married yet? Hmm why haven't I been able to go on a vacation yet? Oh because I might not be overly happy in my job, but I just saw my friend start what they think is their dream career.

You can be left questioning our own place when you are constantly being shown the highlights of others lives.

[JeremyNT]

I don't think this is incompatible. While you may feel happy for them, seeing the upper bounds on "the good life" could also subtly impact your own expectations and the way you think of yourself.

This doesn't even need to be an effect you can detect, moment to moment, but more of a subconscious push to "want more" from life due to observing what other people are doing.

[bmj]

There's an essay[0] in the latest edition of The New Atlantis titled "Reading Ourselves to Death," and the premise is that our brains are really not currently wired in such a way to take in so much information via text.

I think you are correct -- that we should feel good about a friend's vacation, or ideal job. However, in real life, we are exposed to those things in a much more limited way: you meet a friend for coffee and they show you photos of their trip, or a good friend calls to share their joy at the new job. Yes, absolutely, emotionally healthy humans should feel good about that. However, social media skews the equation, heavily. First, EVERYONE on your feed is posting how great their lives are, and, second, how many of those great lives are carefully curated for public consumption? When you are doing life with other people, yes, you share the joys and moments for celebration, but you likely also share the hard times that don't make it to social media. It really helps to know other people experience the same sorts of disappointment and pain that you do.

[0] https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/reading-ourselve... (might be paywalled)

[peoplefromibiza]

> it makes me feel... good?

it doesn't in general.

and that "good feeling" is mostly a lie, something we tell ourselves, because of our education, if our education was not biased by some made-up belief, we should feel nothing, not good, not bad, because we should not care about it. What other people do with their lives - in reality - has no impact on our life at all.

But we were all thought to poject. Unfortunately people mostly project their frustrations on others.

The only way to actually feel good about something that people share, it's to share it, like in person, in real life, not passively receive it on a screen.

If watching a screen full of "good news" would actually improve people's mood, it would be recommended by WHO like with vaccines.

[id]

>that "good feeling" is mostly a lie

I meant good as in "hey, that's great for them", not as in "I'm so happy I can't stop smiling".

>because we should not care about it

If people truly didn't care, they wouldn't go on social media or read the news.

[peoplefromibiza]

> I meant good as in "hey, that's great for them"

yeah, that's part of education, it's not really what we should feel, because we don't know!

Social media are just suspension of disbelief for the masses, we are looking through the keyhole, it should be obvious that what we're looking at it's a fabrication and nothing is real.

It's like those truth-vs-reality posts about social media pictures.

It's so obvious when you think about it for a moment: we don't believe that the ice cream in the ADs is actually THAT good, why we should believe that self promotional material on social media it's any better?

https://www.demilked.com/instagram-online-picture-lies-truth...

https://www.boredpanda.com/instagram-vs-reality-truth-behind...

> If people truly didn't care, they wouldn't go on social media or read the news.

as I've said before.

They should not care, but if they don't, they're out of the game.

And it hurts to them more than feeling bad.

People have been thaught that if you're not getting any attention, you're nothing.

[xkbarkar]

My humble opinion. I am happy and content, log on to facebook and see posting like this.

Something something…. Dastart Putin. Dead people because you didnt wear a mask. Dead children ( Syria a few years ago, Ukraine now ). Something antivaxxer. Something texas abortion law. Someone parked like an idiot. My childrens amazing <insert brag here>. Some snyde humour picture, usually something about a republican. Posted by a non US person to a feed full of europeans.

And it goes on. Facebook makes me want to vomit sometimes.

[lordnacho]

Needs more explanation though.

You meet your friend, he tells you about his new job, you congratulate him.

You meet your coworker and chat to him about politics, and it's kinda interesting.

You meet your neighbor after their trip and they show you the photos and you're fascinated.

You meet your cousin in real life, you see he looks better, you compliment him. You don't feel like you need to do something yourself.

What is it about doing it online that hurts?

[dougmwne]

There is a huge difference. When we interact in person, we are building a mutual relationship. Your friend may tell you about their new job, but may chose to adjust the tone and information to be more sensitive to the layoff you just experienced. Online, you get unidirectional bragging that needs to be as engaging and exaggerated as possible to get promoted by the algorithm. Their new job becomes the pinnacle of a lifetime of stellar achievement. If people interacted in person like they do on social media, the rest of us would avoid them like a contagious rash.

[gilbetron]

You only see the good online for the most part. In person, when they tell you about the amazing vacation, you hear about how their kid cried all the way on the 6 hour flight and how the wife got sick while over there. When they tell you about the new job, they also tell you how even though it is going great, they don't know about their new coworker that is being really annoying.

Online is 99% the good stuff (or the controversial stuff), in real life it is more nuanced and complex. I saw a bunch of relatives recently that I hadn't seen in about 4 years. I have 2 cousins that have kids that I see in pictures playing together all the time, and it makes me happy, but a bit guilty because my only child was born at a time where there are no cousins around his age. Turns out there's a bunch of stress in the relationship because the two groups of kids fight more than play.

Another cousin stayed in the corner, because he's a major MAGA guy and didn't want to interact with the more liberal rest of the group, obvious from his Facebook posts. Except that isn't the case at all, he's actually still divorcing his wife I thought he divorced 4 years ago, fighting a custody battle, and dealing with an injury where his company doesn't believe is worth him being off work for. Again, nuance and complexity adds humanity.

[mwigdahl]

After reading The Last Psychiatrist's _Sadly, Porn_ I'd say that it's the performative nature of social media. In the social media environment you're reading projected images -- performances designed to appeal to the infinite audience of the platform. When you interact with someone in real life, there's an authentic communication between two people. You at least have the chance to really connect, ask questions, and have a real human conversation.

[slingnow]

The in person conversations are much less likely to be embellished and polished to look like more than they are. The in person conversations are also a form of two-way communication, rather than something more like a person standing on the street corner shouting into a megaphone to catch the attention of anyone nearby. The human interaction makes a world of difference.

[Ozzie_osman]

Also the in person conversations are probably spread out. They'd typically not all happen within the span of a couple of minutes, not giving you time to process and work through each emotion.

Unless you're at a party or something, and a lot of people do find parties overwhelming.

[mrmrblister1]

You're meeting a friend in an hour, so you enjoy your moment for a while before you see them You spend time with a friend and are happy for them. After you bump into your coworker and chat for 20 mins about politics. Interesting, but you disagree. But you have lunch with a neighbour soon, so off you trot to go see their holiday pictures. All looks lovely yada yada yada - 1 even after the other, can being digested with context. Time is taken to enjoy or question certain things.

You are enjoying your moment for 1 minute. You open your phone and scroll facebook. You see all of that within 1 viewport. You haven't enjoyed your moment for long - you haven't enjoyed other's success cos you're still kinda angry about the political post etc.

It's the speed at which this all happens.

[_fat_santa]

IMO It's all about your mindset. You can look at a travel photo that your friend took and depending on your mindset, you're either going to feel jealous and wishing you could do the same or feel happy for that person.

[scotty79]

I think a lot of people realize that facebook makes them feel bad but they prefer to feel bad rather than not feel anything at all.

They unknowingly pursue easily available emotion (even negative) to avoid emotional boredom. It's a bit like watching scary or sad movies.

[peoplefromibiza]

> bad but they prefer to feel bad rather than not feel anything at all

this is possible.

But also FOMO makes them feel worse than feeling bad about what they read online.

For many people social networks are a conversation topics, for some it's the only thing they talk about, if they know nothing about what's happening, they're out of the social game, even IRL.

[mcphage]

> It's a bit like watching scary or sad movies.

People like sad and scary movies because they can experience powerful emotions in a safe environment. Scary minus being in danger is exciting. It’s not to avoid emotional boredom.

[alephnan]

> they prefer to feel bad

Kinda the premise of The Matrix

[londons_explore]

or a lot of films...

[krnlpnc]

> First, you notice a friend's post stating that she has accepted her ideal job.

> You continue browsing and see a video of your neighbour enjoying a fantastic tropical vacation.

> And now your cousin has uploaded a before and after photo that makes you want to hide your thighs for the rest of your life.

Sorry to say, but if a person shares a positive thing that's happened to them, and their "friend" makes that about themself in a negative way, the problem isn't really the delivery mechanism (social media)

[yawboakye]

this isn't a problem of social media but rather a problem of following current affairs. the cost of publishing has become so low that even news media dedicate whole articles to single tweets (and other social media posts by famous people). devout followers of social media (and perhaps news media, both television and internet) have become addicted to knowing/following the current thing. one can visit/use twitter, facebook, &c everyday without keeping in sync with the current things and/or allowing themselves to be tossed about like a boat in a tempest. curate deliberately. follow few things and people.

[guerrilla]

> follow few things and people.

Everyone follows few things and people. You don't even know the names of all the pop stars to follow let alone their drama... or the news in every language you don't speak...

[raxxorraxor]

Morbid curiosity sometimes makes me seek out death and decay on the internet. Could this be the secret to my happiness?

But seriously, you can self-reflect about you constantly comparing yourself to to others and and some point you really should ask yourself what you want yourself. Even if you assume that the self-presentation of people on the net is honest, winning the social media competition is an illusion.

[spansoa]

Not if you train your feeds to be high signal. Facebook has an 'unfollow' feature which enables you to mute people you don't like, but still have them as a friend (for whatever reason, went to school together once, or they're a colleague etc). As for Twitter, I just curate a bunch of Lists and avoid their algorithmic timeline and 'suggested' content.

[akira2501]

Your describing social media as something that happens _to_ you.

You should probably make it something you _choose_ to use. Too political rant? Skip it. Video of nothing relevant? Skip it. Your cousins photos? If you know they're not for you, why are you consuming them every time they drop?

You choose to take your hands of the wheel, of course your going to be taken for a ride.

[0xEFF]

Driving in heavy traffic is exhausting. Going for a walk is refreshing.

[scotty79]

I'm a bit immune to a lot of this because I don't like travel, jobs of any kind, having family, excessive fitness (the one you need to excercise to get) and facebook does fairly good job of exposing me only to rants that confirm my biases. But this also makes Facebook way less engaging for me because it does invoke barely any feelings in me.

[sleepdreamy]

You don't like jobs of any kind? Hopefully you have an inheritance because when your parents die you're in for a rude awakening.

[megaman821]

This comment and the replies to it make me think there is a lot of undiagnosed depression. I would feel happy for the good fortune of my friends and family and mute the politics off my timeline. If my friends or family did something that I wanted for myself, I would feel inspiration, not envy.

[AlwaysRock]

Removing social media from my phone and replacing it with the Kindle app has quite literary changed my life.

[ivanhoe]

It affects you a lot less once you realize that nothing of that pictures a real, complete story of those peoples' lives, but just a cherry picked show-off moments and emotional venting...

[cteiosanu]

Shouldn't we work as a society towards a type of education that promotes self confidence (more than self esteem) and makes an effort to reduce bragging ?

[Agamus]

Antisocial media makes people antisocial - news at 11!

[phat_gopher]

I feel the same when I see someone making 6x my salary on hacker news and complaining

[mrtksn]

I think the roller coaster is not as much as an issue as the fast context switching and the hard labour you need to do to make sense of the things you see.

You can't have prolonged and deeper thoughts about anything because you are bombarded with refined extreme opinions and events.

Just yesterday, I was getting ready to do some work I noticed a tweet from an antivaxxer retweeted by a cryptobro saying "they cannot hide it forever, data leaks" and it was about insurance companies claims. The data was legit, indeed there was a huge rise in young people claims for dying off from non-covid condition. Wow, are the antivaxxers right, is the vaccine causing young people to die off from heart attacks? Now I have to dig the data and as it turns the rise in deaths started way before the vaccine roll out, about the beginning of the pandemic and it looks like it is related to drugs.

Because I followed some cryptobro to keep the pulse of the cryptobroverse, I had to endure doubt about what I knew was true, I had to fear for my life and for the loved ones and I had to spend precious time and mental energy because someone used misrepresentation of statistics to push an agenda. I was too exhausted to do any work.

I don't see how this could healthy. I don't see how I simply assume that it was false and ignore it because it will end up me missing out on everything outside of my bubble. I don't see how I can spend that much energy to fight off every single bullshit that is cheap to produce and expensive to clean up.

I don't see how this is sustainable. In real life, bullshitters are ousted by the communities but in this artificial communities we don't have the tools fight back.