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by t8y 1597 days ago
The difference is that Big Tobacco was regulated by the government. Apple is a competitor to Facebook. Apples ads are not effected by this[0].

[0]https://mobiledevmemo.com/apple-privileges-its-own-ad-networ...

6 comments

"regulate" doesn't sound like the correct word in this instance. It's making the process more transparent - all Apple did was ensure users could choose what Facebook does with their data.

Apple's ad system is subject to the same rules. The link you are posting is outdated - since last year's iOS 14.5 the SKAdNetwork has been extended to provide the full API.

> Apple's ad system is subject to the same rules.

This does not appear to be true, given that they were asked this question by the FT and refused to answer.

See: https://www.ft.com/content/074b881f-a931-4986-888e-2ac53e286...

Money quote (which to be fair, was not too an FT journalist):

“Apple was unable to validate for us that Apple’s solutions are compliant with Apple’s policy,” he said. “Despite multiple requests and trying to get them to confirm that their products are compliant with their own solutions, we were unable to get there.”

The problem is with tracking, not ads.
Actually - I would argue the other way around.

Selling user data (for ads) IS the problem.

No one would collect and store massive amounts of data if not to make a profit selling it.

They would only collect things that are useful in improving the product.

That kind of tracking IS valuable.

Neither Facebook nor Google “sells user data”. Why would they? There is value in having sole access to the data. They sell access to you based on the data they collect.

In this case, I would say FB is more in the side of the angels than Google. People knowingly give FB information about them

The last thing I want to do is to start a flame war, but I know a lot about this field and it’s been my observation that it’s both important and kind of opaque.

I would be happy to answer questions (within some fairly broad guidelines of proprietary information) in as much detail as anyone would like.

Everything from the technology to the organizational imperatives to the competitive landscape is actually quite complex and nuanced.

I have no ambition of informing folks’ moral judgements (I have my own), but on average it’s probably better if moral judgements are informed by detailed understanding.

> They would only collect things that are useful in improving the product.

But if your product is serving ads then collecting data for ads is improving your product

ads don't work without tracking. that's the whole point
So all the ads in newspapers and on television and in sports venues and public spaces and...don't work? Or did you just mean ads are less cost effective without tracking-based targeting?
Ads are much more valuable and higher click through vs impression if they’re personalized.

Small businesses are willing to give more money per ad campaign if they know they’ll get clickthru on a specific target market. These same small businesses don’t have the money to run long ad campaigns which would result in less clicks.

sell the ads in newspapers? is this the 1950s? j/k

Seriously though, what newspaper(s) would you honestly be willing to spend ad dollars with (and for what products) thinking that this would be a good investment? Geritol? Now, if your suggestion is buying newspaper ads would then get ads in their digital versions as well, then maybe. However, seems to me that most viewers of news sites are from link aggregators more than just readers of a website. Not sure how that would affect ad placement.

Ad supported TV broadcasts are a thing and are podcasts that don’t dynamically insert ads.
TV and podcasts are moving towards surveillance based advertising too. Look at the rise of smart TV's, cable, and streaming services that require identification and location as well as the various ad supported podcast players.

Your are correct if you are using over the air TV or Kodi and if you use FOSS podcast players such as Antennapod or Podverse.

I asked about newspapers, and you responded with TV. Huh?
Some people claim, without much proof, that ads without tracking are less effective. We don't care and would prefer to see their business model fail than to maintain the status quo. That is the point here.
Weren't there even studies showing, that context based advertising is on par with personalized (based on tracking your every move) advertising?

I strongly suspect that might be the case. I also believe that social networks could - in theory - create effective advertising possibilities without the need to target user properties.

Take my experience with Instagram. When I am looking at mostly typography related posts, it tends to work well if they show me paid ads for interesting fonts. But when they show these to me, when I am looking at gardening content, I tend to be irritated and ignore them.

I know - I am talking anecdata here - but maybe there could be a way to not target users, but target topics and hit the users that move through these topics (so to speak).

One problem, though, I see with this approach is when you want to create a longing in somebody who never before had the idea that he/she would like to have a cool new font (to stay with my example). Or the next "hot" stuff from some global brand (or what they believe that i should want to feel cool).

But as said - I can't find the studies I seem to remember right now on the effectiveness of context based advertising compared to personalized advertising. So I am not sure if this was just my imagination.

Who is "we"?

The vast majority of people love ad supported services. They prefer free/low cost to expensive and express this preference regularly. They don't think advertising is evil, and in fact many people voluntarily wear adverts on their own clothes.

Online advertising pays for a massive amount of stuff. If it dies, then the outcome is not "everything stays the same but somehow better". The outcome is that a lot of services we take for granted go away and either don't come back at all, or come back far worse because their market is now much smaller and only rich people pay for it.

To put this in perspective, when I worked at Google they had a prototype internal service that let you "buy" your way out of seeing ads by bidding against yourself in the auction. The idea was to allow people to pay for an ad-free internet, but without making users freeloaders on the services they used (that's ad blocking and exists already). I thought, what a great idea. I'll sign up. Result: to get rid of a just a fraction of all the ads I was seeing online (my guess, ~20% of ads I saw were served by Google) would have costed $200-$300 per month.

After seeing the scale at which advertisers were subsidizing my online experience, I lost interest, as did everyone else. Paying 4x as much as my entire normal internet bill just to see fewer ads, not even get ridding of all of them, just wasn't worth it.

The reality is that the public aren't demanding restrictions on online advertising. They don't care. They like free stuff and they've got nothing against advertisers. This is a war being waged for political and commercial reasons, dressed up as consumer protection, and if/when it actually starts to bite in visible ways, a whole lot of people are going to be mighty shocked at how upset the public will get.

The public would certainly got upset with the idea above. Fortunately that idea has nothing to do with reality - we don’t need to bid ransom to Google to make it stop tracking, same way we don’t have to bid against car thieves to get our cars back.
The most efficient way to solve climate change is to provide every user in the planet the exact amount of goods/services that solves a user's need at the exact time.

This eliminates all the redundant transportation, housing, waste (food, cloths, electronics, equipment)

And the only way to provide is that through tracking (both history and intent).

No, the most efficient way to solve climate change is for people to consume less crap; this reduces far more wasted resources. There is no need to give up your privacy and no need for corrupt middlemen to track you.
It’s been my experience that historical user CTR and historical ad CTR can already produce a really high performing P(click|impression) classifier.
Ads work without tracking, just less efficiently.

On the other hand, misinformation and propaganda also work without tracking, just less efficiently.

Wi'll have to strike a balance somewhere.

I have always been a bit skeptical of off-site data producing serious lift in VCG auction clearing prices for in-feed units, but I’m also pretty out of date.
I’ve found some very relevant services based on host read advertising on podcasts.
Those Apple ads are just search placement ads inside their App Store. A much smaller scale and limited scope than Facebook or Google ads.
Oh, you just wait! I am sure that Apple will eventually build its own ad empire. It is too sweet peece of pie to be left on the table. Also, Apple badly needs to justify it's market cap with some revenue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAd

They had this mobile advertising platform then closed it, or reduced it to the ads GP mentioned.

I'm no fan of Facebook, but Apple is literally showing the world that their platform can sink trillion dollar businesses with simple policy changes.

When you're "America's Computer" with a 51+% entrenchment, you shouldn't be able to govern commerce. You're a common carrier at that point.

The DOJ better be watching. This behavior makes 90's Microsoft look absolutely tame by comparison. Apple is the new Standard Oil.

You seem to think that it’s ethical for people to be tracked by Facebook against their will and without their consent.

It’s hard to take arguments against Apple on this issue seriously.

All we are talking about is giving the users an option to disable tracking.

The fact they have lost money over this, simply proves that Facebook is a business that can’t survive without deceiving its users.

This isn’t about Apple at all.

Why this isn’t about Apple, if they literally use their market power to destroy competition? They could have done tons of features to benefit users, but they implement those which damage competitors.
We’re taking about a feature which requires companies to get consent before tracking users. That’s all. It applies to everyone, including Apple.

It only harms Facebook because their business only works if users are deceived into being tracked when they don’t want to be.

If users wanted to be tracked, they would opt-in.

That isn’t about Apple destroying anyone. It’s about Facebook building a business on a deceptive practice.

> It applies to everyone, including Apple

Which is false as Apple tracks you across apps without showing you this new prompt.

> That isn’t about Apple destroying anyone.

Could you elaborate on what are you implying here?

Are you saying Apple doesn’t damage anyone with this policy? It is obviously false.

Are you saying damaging competitors and building its own ads ecosystem is not Apple’s primary motivation here? It also seems false, as they build their own ad system, which tracks users.

This is an insane argument.

> They could have done tons of features to benefit users, but they implement those which damage competitors.

Why does Facebook rely on unethical and shady business practices that harm users? Facebook is harming itself. And how is Facebook, in any meaningful way, a competitor to Apple? Apple's ad's business is PEANUTS.

Fully agree. If anything the choice that Apple is offering its users should be made law so it’s not just an “Apple thing”. If you want to track users you should have to ask them first, and if they say no that’s the end of it.
I would not characterize Apple giving people the choice to not be tracked by Facebook as governing commerce.
If Apple can say, "Go out of business, Facebook", they're a monopoly.

Even more so if they do it with the flip of a switch instead of new and novel products.

If consumers choosing to not see ads destroys your business, it doesn't deserve to exist
I am not clear which switch Apple can flip to put Facebook out of business. I assume Apple can delete Facebook from the App Store, but that would be just as consequential to Apple as to Facebook.

Also, it would seem self evident that Apple’s ability to influence Facebook comes from having a novel product, that people like to use compared to the alternatives.

> Also, it would seem self evident that Apple’s ability to influence Facebook comes from having a novel product, that people like to use compared to the alternatives.

Apple controls 50+% of American computing. At this point it isn't just a "novel product". They own the American internet interface and it takes a nation state level of effort to compete. Facebook can't even keep up.

Android is a fragmented 40% and relies on advertising. Google locks it down so hard with their Play Store Services stranglehold (no YouTube/Maps/Gmail if you disobey), that there's no room for real competition to emerge and make any money doing something unique.

None of this is healthy for the world. Both companies need a hard slap from the DOJ.

>Apple controls 50+% of American computing.

Wait, what? If you want to say that Apple controls 50% of mobile compute, then I might be willing to go along with that. But the blanket computing alone is laughable.

You've suddenly just ignored all of the data centers in the US that have very little Apple products seeing as Apple doesn't make a server product. Sure some niche data centers have popped up with racks full of Minis, but those are primarily for people making apps for those mobile devices mentioned earlier.

> Apple controls 50+% of American computing.

Do you have a source for this assertion?

That Apple controls more than 50% of American computing seems, well, a bit on the high side.

Well fortunately because of the Epic case, now we have a real judge that says that is not the case.
Apple doesn’t even have a monopoly in any market they participate in.

Additionally you’ll be hard pressed to find someone who will say opt in tracking is a bad idea.

The larger argument is that the vast majority of high value companies probably should not exist today.

Apple and Google together can tank just about any mobile platform they wish though, see Parler. If you're off both app stores, you'll have a stupidly hard time growing even if the demand's there in principle.
Right and that’s illegal.

Google and Apple if they worked together to manipulate the market, that’s grounds for fines etc.

Kicking apps off their app stores would not qualify and should not qualify.

Instead of HN lawyers, there was actual a real case with a real judge that said otherwise.
Parler couldn’t put up a website?
Hell, Microsoft is pulling stuff with Edge now that pales in comparison to just shipping IE by default. Google, Android, same thing.
> I'm no fan of Facebook, but Apple is literally showing the world that their platform can sink trillion dollar businesses with simple policy changes.

Sink? I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. Furthermore, if Facebook's business model is predicated on actively harming Apple's customers (and Facebook is harming them in a multitude of ways, including this tracking), this isn't Apple's fault at all, it's Facebooks.

> When you're "America's Computer" with a 51+% entrenchment, you shouldn't be able to govern commerce. You're a common carrier at that point.

Yah, no. Apple's marketshare, even in the US, as of January is estimated to be ~33% (iOS and macOS) combined.

So?

Facebook is free to pull its app from the App Store if they don't like Apple's policies.

If they don't have bread, then they should eat cake.
Apple is giving the user the choice to be tracked. How will the argument work in court for FB to say that users shouldn’t be given the choice?
In fairness all the FAANGs are crazy big and powerful by historical anti-trust standards.
Obviously, when people in power like pelosi holds stock of Apple and Alphabet in the name of free market, is there any incentives to regulate them?

I would say FAANG got popular and powerful because regulating them is direct conflict of interest for many politicians.

It couldn’t possibly be because they create products that people wanted?
Nobody wants to build for iPhone or pay 30% to Apple. We build for it because that's where Americans choose to be, and if you want your software business to reach audiences, that's where you have to follow. It frankly sucks.

I don't like the fact that my code is up for review. I don't have the nanny state overseeing my web deploys.

I don't like the fact that the feedback is uneven and arbitrary.

I don't like being forced to give up my own choices for login and contact, essentially ceding my customers to Apple.

I don't like paying thirty percent for being forced to build for a platform I don't even want to be on but have to.

There should have been an open standard for native apps distributed over web. It should have been cross platform, like HTML, so we don't have to build twice or use stupid hacks to share code.

Apple builds hardware people like, but they're monsters.

Guess what? I as a consumer don’t want to enter my credit card all over the place or have to jump through hoops when I want to cancel a subscription. I want to be able to use “Hide My Email” so when you have a data breach or sell my email I can cancel it. I don’t want to use your lowest common denominator crappy web app. I want to just use an app I pay for and I don’t need to have a “relationship “ with you.
The whole “if you don’t like it don’t buy it” argument is pretty weak on a lot of the tech giants. Thank whoever failed to secure third-party cookies, it’s not great.

But Apple seems to be pretty squarely in the: “don’t buy it if you don’t like it” vertex.

I use Apple stuff because the cost/benefit is something I can live with.

But most of my friends and colleagues never touch the stuff: it’s desktop Linux connecting to server Linux. Usually Android phones but some people get Pine or old Nokias or whatever.

Is Apple running some Internet-wide cookie scam that I’m unaware of?

So exactly what is the complaint? That Apple have users the choice whether or not to be tracked?
Apple might actually be helping Facebook. It the industry doesn't regulate itself then the governments will at some point and that's going to be much worse.

The GDPR is governments (the EU) regulating an industry that has failed to regulate itself the last 20 years and most would argue that the GDPR is much stricter than it needs to be.

> much worse

For the ‘industry’, that is.

I was very confused until I realized you meant "affected."