[ganSo]

This semester I had the opportunity to work with a classmate with Asperger's syndrome. It has been a very bad experience to say the least. In meetings he screams and berates us, gets very angry and easily frustrated when things are not done the way he wants to do them, even when the rest of the group has unanimously decided to do them a certain way. One time he started watching a video in the middle of the meeting and screamed at us to shut up every time we tried to talk because he couldn't listen to his video.

My university or department has had absolutely no contact with me or any member of my group to guide us on how to work with a neurodivergent classmate, on how to make the group and project work. It has been a very tiring experience. Can anybody give me any advice on how to try to better the situation? How to make the environment better for him and my group?

[sterlind]

(I'm on the spectrum as well) We do well with rules. If you have a concrete set of rules of conduct, give it to him, and warn him when he violates them. If he keeps screaming, watching videos during meetings, etc. then loop in HR to get him fired. Being autistic isn't an excuse to be an asshole, it just means we need help on social cues and stuff.

[adreamingsoul]

(Also on the spectrum) Rules might help, but the behaviour op described sounds like something much more complex. Almost as if they have experienced some trauma.

With guidance and learning we can cooperate and work well with people.

[smt88]

They can't loop in HR. It's another student, and the school can't do much about it because of the risk of a lawsuit for discrimination.

[scottlamb]

This is true only if the school administrators are cowards. The law doesn't say that people on the spectrum can behave abusively to their peers. It doesn't say they can't be fired or expelled or otherwise removed for such behavior. It certainly doesn't say that they can't have the rules explained to them as a gentler step prior to removal. School administrators being afraid to do anything involving someone like this is cowardice that we shouldn't excuse.

Fortunately it's easy to deal with cowards. You just have to make them as afraid of you as they are of him. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know the laws for a classroom situation, but in a workplace I think you'd have grounds to sue. This other student is creating a hostile environment, and they are perpetuating that by forcing you to work with him without taking corrective action. If I'm remembering my workplace harassment training correctly, not only can the company be liable but also the manager in question individually. They can't afford to ignore such complaints.

I think as a first step, I would take the grandparent's suggestions for dealing directly with the other student. If that doesn't work—promptly—get your complaints to the school in writing with the complete history. If they don't address the problem promptly, threaten to sue. They'll back down. It probably doesn't even matter what the law actually says. Just a remotely plausible, explicit threat of a lawsuit will win over the implicit threat they feel when dealing with someone in a protected class and motivate them to find a solution that avoids anyone suing them.

[smt88]

> This is true only if the school administrators are cowards. The law doesn't say...

It doesn't matter what the law says.

"Autism-spectrum student sues [college] for discrimination" is a bad headline, even if the school was 100% justified.

It's also expensive to fight in court.

> School administrators being afraid to do anything involving someone like this is cowardice that we shouldn't excuse.

It's more an issue with the massive and insane costs of litigation.

> I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know the laws for a classroom situation, but in a workplace I think you'd have grounds to sue.

Workplaces have different protections than classrooms do.

Also, no one is saying the other students can't sue the student who's on the spectrum. But it's not something the university is likely to push themselves.

[scottlamb]

You're making my point with every sentence. The University doesn't want headlines like "U of WTF condones classroom screaming" or "Student Sues U for Abusive Workgroup". When it comes down to it, the other student's parents likely don't want his name and behavior in any of these stories either. Bad for job prospects. The person acting with integrity is the one with the least to fear from press or the legal system.

Again, I'd first try explaining the rules to the other student as another commenter suggested. But the University has a responsibility to step in if that doesn't work. I would remind them they have more to fear from failing to act than from acting properly. I likely wouldn't actually sue—as another commenter said, students don't want to deal with that. A private threat is likely enough, and certainly a story in the press would do it.

[smt88]

> You're making my point with every sentence.

No, I'm not. You're treating your own ethics as being universal and absolute. I don't agree with all of your implied premises.

In a vacuum, defending the harassed students would be ethical. But it isn't a vacuum, and the university has a responsibility not to burn cash (or brand value) on lengthy legal battles that only affect a small minority of students. A large public school in the US could harm literally 100,000+ people (with degrees completed or in progress) just to spare a few students from an unpleasant project.

> But the University has a responsibility to step in if that doesn't work.

Yes, they do. That's a much milder assertion than your original one. "Stepping in" does not immediately mean a lawsuit, disciplinary action, or expulsion. It probably means the professor would just ask the student to complete the project alone.

[spindle]

Probably a student does not have time or the emotional resources to do all of this! But I totally agree with you in principle.

[scottlamb]

Making a threat is easy. I agree carrying through would be a big deal, but I don't think it's necessary.

[rhizome]

Tolerating disruptive behavior is not a reasonable accomodation.

[ganSo]

Thank you for your advice. Next meeting I will try to talk to him and set a few rules of conduct. Hopefuly we'll all get along better.

[mjburgess]

Is your classmate aware that he's autistic?

I would send an email to the disability service at your university highlighting his likely need for support. He isn't going to be able to complete university without it.

[bitwize]

Rule #1: To reinforce group cohesion and identify who is truly "one of us" and who is an interloper, the rules are subject to change at any time without prior notice or approval.

[exporectomy]

It's funny how some of those things are just relative. I've been in a group at university where everyone else began a meeting by talking about the latest sports updates while I just waited. Nobody gave me any guidance on how to deal with sports fans as teammates. I've also been shouted at and sworn at by otherwise normal classmates. This stuff is usually treated as acceptable when the higher social status people approve of it and not acceptable when they don't.

[ganSo]

That's an interesting point, and I agree. But the difference is, I have experience working with difficult and disrespectful people in group projects who are neurotypical. I know how to deal with them and how to resolve the issues that most commonly arise.

But in this case I have absolutely zero knowledge or experience dealing with a similar situation but with a neurodivergent person. It's a completely new thing that I've never had to deal with. That's why I'm asking for advice.

[exporectomy]

Sure. You're used to being able to manage people so it's a probably a bit of a shock when you can't. My personal perspective is more of the opposite and your complaint may have touched a bit of a nerve. Your experience is fairly normal to me but I see it as my own lack of ability, not anybody else's responsibility for helping me to manage those angry/selfish/etc. people. I would like it if there was some authority that managed them for me, but that never works in practice because people can outsmart the system.

[matheusmoreira]

I've had similar experiences. It's exhausting. Can't treat them the same way they treat us because of power differences. We're okay as long as we're accomodating them, if we try to do things differently we get excluded. Really easy to get frustrated and adversarial in situations like these.

[serverholic]

I'm always tempted to get angry when someone gives me shit for not watching sports. Then they act weird when I talk about something I'm into.

[matheusmoreira]

Yeah, it sucks. We're supposed to make an effort to like the stuff they like. Not only do they not do the same for us, we're excluded if we don't nurture this common touch.

This is more eloquently expressed here:

https://48laws-of-power.blogspot.com/2011/05/law-38-think-as...

[jbluepolarbear]

Someone on the team needs to be the leader (not them) and set ground rules. Be stern and direct. If they act out like that, don’t get upset and calmly ask them to either corporate or you’ll need them to leave. Ask their input often, but don’t let them steer the meetings. If they have an issue with how things are done look for a middle ground or explain why your method is the method you’re using without belittling their opinion. Be direct, don’t sugar coat things, don’t assume they will read between the lines, and try to understand that they are different than you.

I am neurodivergent and I have been on both sides of this. It’s hard for everyone involved.

From the start it seems that they felt unheard and unwanted so they are frustrated and feel stuck. Doing what I mentioned above can help repair this relationship.

[ganSo]

Thank you for your input. I'll be more direct when issues arise and have a set of rules for conduct ready. Hopefuly you're right about repairing the relationship.

[bayesian_horse]

It does sound a bit like ass-perger syndrome, pardon the pun. While that condition certainly isn't fun for him, either, I think this is not just an issue with group dynamics or interpersonal issues, but rather involves self regulation and a general attitude. Even people on the spectrum can somewhat improve those.

[magnetowasright]

Tell him that behaviour is unacceptable. Don’t mince your words, be explicit and direct. Loop in HR/advisor/whichever higher ups and let them know if the behaviour continues. You don’t have to tolerate yelling, berating, mid-meeting video watching from anyone.

If he’s unwilling to stop that behaviour or unwilling to try cooperate, make sure higher ups know. There’s not much you can do if he just refuses to cooperate (just like anyone else).

If he IS willing to try cooperate, asking him directly (or asking HR/advisors/etc to mediate a discussion) about what he needs to effectively cooperate/what isn’t working could help you find ways of working together. For example, if he’s feeling that his ideas aren’t being heard/discussed because he doesn’t quite know how to interject/take part in a group discussion could be alleviated by making sure to ask him for input explicitly during group discussions. Not saying that’s the case or a perfect solution, and that frustration certainly doesn’t justify unacceptable behaviour, but yeah that kind of thing might help?

Hope that gives you some ideas. Shitty group members of all stripes are a frustrating experience. Good luck!

[ganSo]

Thank you for your advice. I agree that group dynamics are most likely very hard and can be super frustrating for him, and maybe that causes his disruptive behaviour.

[magnetowasright]

As an Autistic person, thanks for going to the effort of trying to understand this dude and find a solution. It mostly sounds like he’s just an arsehole, and it shouldn’t be your responsibility to teach him how to work in a group or communicate needs he might have, so yeah, thanks for making the effort.

[gotoeleven]

It is bizarre that our society now seems to reject entirely the concept of standards. If you scream at people like a crazy person then you can't go to college, full stop. Sorry, you're severely disabled and you need help you don't belong in college. Colleges are happy to collect the government subsidized tuition I guess.

[deeblering4]

It’s really unfair to suggest that people with disabilities shouldn’t be eligible for education. God forbid you or someone you love becomes disabled.

[nextlevelwizard]

If I became so disabled that I couldn't function in a social setting then please just end me. I don't want to be some vegetable that someone else needs to look after 24/7. I want to be productive, I want to be liked, I want to be free.

Whatever you are describing does not fill any of those fields. At that point I'd be complete burden and I wouldn't want that on anyone.

[deeblering4]

I've met plenty of NT people who have got too drunk or emotional in social settings and need support from others to stop making a scene. Is that functional behavior? Should they end themselves?

Your comment is very nearsighted and for some reason compares inability to "function" in a social setting with being "some vegetable" who is in a coma? What are you even talking about?

[bayesian_horse]

That attitude just becomes a burden on everyone else, particularly those around you

[nextlevelwizard]

>That attitude

The attitude of wanting to be charge of your life and not a burden to others around you? Or did I just completely misunderstand what you tried to say? Because that doesn't make any sense at all.

[bayesian_horse]

You didn't say you want to be in charge of your life and not a burden. You said you'd rather want to be dead than a "burden" to others.

The way relationships especially with family works is that they'd usually rather have you be "a burden" than dead.

Also it is very hard not to project that attitude on other people who would be "a burden to others". It is hard for them not to think you want them dead or at least find them extremely worthless.

[AllegedAlec]

Disabilities do not excuse you from responsibility of your actions, not do they allow you to be a complete dickwad to others.

[randomdata]

There was no suggestion that education should be denied.

[im3w1l]

Maybe he behaves the way he does because there are no consequences? Like if he watches a video and screams at you to be silent, maybe snatch his device away? And then if he screams at you you all scream back at him. And if he gets violent trying to get his device back you get violent back (but only as much as needed to counteract his aggression).

But you probably want to plan this out with the other people in the group.

[pope_meat]

Don't attempt to steal someone's property, and then fight them if they try to take it back, nothing good can come of that.

[im3w1l]

I didn't mean to steal it, more take it away for the duration of the meeting, as a teacher would.

[pope_meat]

Even with a teacher doing it, it's extremely murky.

Don't snatch people's stuff, even temporarily, you will catch a fist, and as far as I'm concerned, justifiably so.

[im3w1l]

I bet you punched a lot of teachers mr tough guy hahahaha

[mjfl]

If you really want to continue working with him (as opposed to just leaving) you'll probably just have to stop being sensitive to the screaming and berating. He has a condition, you can either excuse yourself or just have a stronger personality. You can have fun with it, yell back but don't bully.

[coryrc]

Poe's Law. I'm not sure which way your comment was intended?

[hitekker]

Some people believe their presence on the spectrum makes them superior to people who are not on the spectrum. They feel entitled to a social standing that lets them abuse others without consequence.

It’s supremacism but for neurodiversity.

[mjfl]

Giving serious, frank advice friend.

[coryrc]

That's a shame. I don't think anyone should be forced to endure screaming and berating.

[ganSo]

I can't leave. The groups were formed at the start of the semester by the professor so those are the groups that are going to last until the end of it. That's why I'm asking for advice on how to better deal with the situation.

[denkmoon]

Have you talked to your professor about it at all? That is your first avenue. Had to do this multiple times in my degree, simply because some group mates are shitty.