[protectid]

I am in software development but my troubles are at home. This is why I am using a throwaway. I am bad with relationships. There two sides to every story but this is my side. I have a quiet agreeable demeanor. Its a cultural thing and a personality thing. Unless something is going to affect my life I tend to agree. I seem to attract the opposite types of partner. My partners tend to do all the talking which is fine with me. I am fine with most things except for the things I believe in then I am very stubborn. When I put my foot down it seems things just escalate. It seems to take my partners by surprise when I disagree or put my foot down and they don't take it too well. Now I am not sure anymore whether it is how I communicate that causes all my problems. I just want peace so I acquiesce even though I know deep down I don't agree. Well you guessed it, the peace doesn't last too long because I truly do not believe in whatever it is I have agreed to. The arguments and accusations escalate. I am heterosexual male. Typical items include me being told I am not caring enough yet to me I feel like spend hours listening to my partner and asking how they feel. I carry bags, fix plumbing, make the bed, sweep, occasionally cook. I am just not the flower sort of guy but somehow nothing ever seems good enough. I think I take criticisms to heart. I don't mind the off argument or criticism but what kills me is that this seems to happen every other day. I don't get enough time to recover my peace and self confidence before another bout of criticisms gets thrown my way. Its been 5 years. I love her very much, we have made some wonderful memories but honestly I cannot see myself living like this for the rest of my life.

[CuriousSkeptic]

I can relate somewhat. Even with the 5 year mark. 19 years in, somewhere along the line it seems we learnt to understand and love each other. Just wanted to provide the data point, such a thing is possible.

One thing that might be just the thing is to checkout the model of “non violent communication” by Marshall Rosenberg. It’s a nice way of framing things, especially with whom responsibility of feelings lie. https://youtu.be/l7TONauJGfc

[raphaelb]

I have difficult times in relationships also, and your post sounds similar to things I've struggled with - general personality / demeanor acquiesce with uncertainty or internal disagreement, very flexible most of the time until very stubborn in certain ways, not feeling like I can recover my peace & internal clarity before another wave.

I recently read the book Boundaries by Anne Katherine (https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-Where-Begin-Recognize-Heal...) and feel like it was exceptionally eye opening. I always felt like I had a normal-ish upbringing (but how do you ever really know, outside of egregious abuse?) but there was very little to no modeling of positive boundaries and individuation, and it has negatively impacted my relationships.

I've also read some of Henry Cloud's "Boundaries" book, but it was a little too Bible-oriented for me, but that may not bother you. His writing is very clear and he had many insightful gems sprinkled throughout the heavy reference to scripture.

It also may be worth talking to a therapist or counselor (and I would suggest doing it just for yourself first) before trying marriage / couples counseling. In my experience with marriage counselors (admittedly not a lot), the relationship itself is effectively the client. The one I went to wouldn't even discuss with us that our marriage may not be right for either of us whereas a personal therapist is there specifically for you.

[sproutz11]

I'm in the middle of an amicable divorce after about 3 years of marriage due to similar reasons. I now realize that I've always been bad at setting boundaries and I acquiesce until a given situation is no longer tolerable for me.

My partners have always been type A while I'm more of a type B personality and somewhat quiet and introverted, but not overly so. Like you, i don't mind listening to other people do most of the talking, take the lead on activities, etc. I generally go with the flow. But in my marriage, I ended up giving up way too much space and when I tried to claw some space back it was too late - no matter how simple my requests were and how kindly I asked for them. For my partner, it was like I was upending the relationship.

Anyways, this was somewhat my fault but at the end of the day it was a toxic relationship and I was on the receiving end of a controlling relationship. Within just a few days of splitting up I felt like a weight had been lifted off of my shoulders. I was worn out from living how someone else wanted me to live rather than how I wanted us to live. Not to say it was a horrible relationship or nothing positive came from it, but being relatively young and childless I quickly realized this was for the best.

I went to therapy for a bit and it was helpful just to confirm that my feelings before and after splitting were normal. The main lesson for next time was to be better at setting boundaries from the outset. It can be hard to see these things when your in such a relationship. I saw my mom fail to set boundaries with my volatile father as an attempt to keep him from exploding, but I didn't realize until after the fact that I was doing something similar in my relationship.

I get the sense that your relationship is a bit like mine was. Not so horrible or traumatic that there's a smoking gun that would cause you to leave, but not what you had hoped for or thought you were getting into, and certainly not a relationship that has your best interests at heart.

*I created an account just to reply. Will check out the book recommended below.

[PhasmaFelis]

I haven't read the book, but the idea of "love languages" seems plausible to me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Love_Languages

It sounds like maybe your love languages are acts of service and nonjudgmental listening, and your partner's are...something else. I guess a mutually acceptable compromise might involve your partner trying to be more understanding about how you express love, and you trying to put more energy into the expressions that your partner wants. I don't know exactly how you'd get there, but the book might have something constructive to say, and couples therapy is often a good idea.

[acupofnope]

You are in an abusive relationship. Get out before it's too late (i.e. kids)

[protectid]

I am beginning to think so. I spent 3 weeks away and to be honest whilst I missed her I also felt a sense of peace. I guess 5 years is a long time and we have some good memories... Thanks to OP I needed to write out my feelings.

[bjornlouser]

I wonder if you should just give her a copy of what you wrote above and see what happens?

[ethbro]

I would have identified a lot with what you said, several years ago.

The key advice I'd give: realize you are sabotaging your own relationships when you don't tell your partners how you feel about something.

This is not helping them, you, or the relationship out. It may feel like that because there's "less" arguing, but ultimately you're just poisoning trust in the relationship.

As proof, why do you think your partners might react so negatively when you do put your foot down? I'd offer it's because they're surprised. Completely blindsided. Feeling like they don't know you at all. This doesn't lead to comfort and intimacy.

I'm not saying argue about what kind of food to eat every night, but there's a huge spectrum of communication options between "I agree" and "Let's fight about this." Use them. If you're annoyed by something, say so. If something makes you smile slightly, say so.

Real relationships are built by deepening trust by letting your partner know the real you. Not the "Sure, whatever you want" you. Even if you only have a slight preference.

Constructively arguing, without overly hurt feelings on either side, is a skill like any other. You're not going to get better if you only do it once a year.

And finally... express your own needs. If she isn't doing things for you too, then (a) you aren't being vocal enough about the things that make you happy or (b) she just doesn't care.

Sometimes people just aren't well matched for each other. But I think more often, one "quiet" partner never speaks up about the things they want / need / don't want. And so your partner (who is not a mind-reader) just... doesn't.

Thus, you're unhappy. She's unhappy that you're unhappy. Relationship falls apart.

tl;dr - Sometimes being pushier (in a respectful, active-listening, considerate way) leads to less conflict and more happiness in a relationship.

Don't be scared to be the real you. If they don't like that person, then either work to change or break things off. No one should have to live hiding themselves.

[protectid]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. You insights and advice have helped me understand better what is going on. I also feel better about myself in that I am not the only one who has gone through similar stuff. Something about opening up to strangers on Internet :-).

[ethbro]

When it comes down to it, there is no one answer.

Because it's a skill (conflict resolution & communication) operating in a complex environment (your relationship).

Be self reflective though: if you aren't getting the results you want, then try different things.

[ta201909]

> there's a huge spectrum of communication options between "I agree" and "Let's fight about this."

How do you do this in practice? If your partner wants to to something that you disagree with already, and both of you are sub-born, how do you resolve conflicts without someone stepping down and becoming unhappy?

[ethbro]

It's difficult and very much intuition.

The first question I'd ask is why the one stepping down is unhappy? They're compromising and giving a gift to their partner, which their partner should recognize, thank them for, and respect. See (B).

I can only offer the following as things that have worked for me:

A) (MOST IMPORTANT) Recognize (and lead your partner to recognize) that the purpose of disagreement is resolution. Too many people get trapped in a cycle of argue - failure to resolve - argue. If resolutions aren't getting reached, then you and your partner need to talk about how you argue.

B) (second most important) Recognize that no one wins an argument. The purpose isn't to win. The purpose is to reach acceptable consensus. Agreeing on this weeds out a lot of toxic behaviors (like bringing up old arguments), because those actions don't make sense if no one wins.

C) Get better at initiating disagreements. Is this the right time and place to disagree (hint: usually "now" and "here" is, as putting things off is generally a bad idea)? Do you catch your partner off guard, or do you telegraph you're going to disagree about something (hints followed shortly by action is a good playbook)?

D) Get better at providing care after a disagreement. Do you revisit the solution reached, and reassure your partner that you feel good with the solution arrived at? Do you make sure to remind them you care about them, especially if it was an intense argument?

E) Realize that some people were raised with extremely maladaptive and toxic argument patterns by watching their parents. And changing these takes time and effort by both people. Arguments are like coding: there are a huge number of ways to do it, so choose one of the better ones than one of the worse ones!

[ta201909]

Thank you for the thoughtful response, it’s very helpful.

Actually I think I am the one who was raised with extremely maladaptive and toxic argument patterns by watching my parents, and I’m struggling to change because I didn’t have the chance to see and learn other healthy patterns, because, well, disagreements usually happen in private.

[VoiceOfWisdom]

Read the sidebar at /r/marriedredpill/. I think you would benefit from reading No More Mr Nice Guy, and When I Say No, I Feel Guilty. Don't be turned off by the red pill language.

[protectid]

On the subreddit now as I type this. Man you have hit the nail on the head though with the one line. I feel so guilty when I disagree and she doesn't see my point. Its like I want her to say okay I see your point but we never seem to get there unless it is her point of view. I want to stand up for what I believe in (for the record it is things like how to save money, stuff I can pull numbers for). I come from a family where we plan things long term. So we would sit and talk about a kitchen renovation for a year or two while we saved money and weighed different options before doing. Even then we would do as much as we could ourselves. She comes from a family where you just call up a designer and contractor and hand over the house. Trouble is we don't have the money to hire designer and contractor and we don't agree on how to save money so it comes across as if I am stingy person denying her, her dream kitchen. She isn't a horrible person I promise but we just cannot do things together and I don't know what to do.

[gjulianm]

Please watch out about red-pill forums. Standing up for yourself is good, being able to communicate and be assertive is good, but the underlying ideas of the red-pill community is to build relationships on games and dishonesty, with a nice base of sexism.

[PhasmaFelis]

Absolutely. If anyone is looking for a forum that tries to address the reality of modern men's issues without making it into a zero-sum game of men-versus-women, I've been reading https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/ lately, and it's actually really good. Yeah, I know it's hard to believe, but seriously. Take a look.

[raphaelb]

I would second this. I read most of "No More Mr Nice Guy", and while I found it helpful in some ways it also was just not as "clean" in my opinion as "Boundaries" by Anne Katherine.

[VoiceOfWisdom]

MRP is pretty different in that regard. Its more about recognizing the ways society tells men to behave that don't actually help them or anyone else.

[gjulianm]

Thanks but no thanks. I read some posts and the guides they have. Superficially there's some good advice, but under all of that there is still the push to take relationships as a zero-sum game that you have to win against the other person with some tricks and rules. IMHO, it's just a recipe to create a toxic and maybe even abusive relationship.

[VoiceOfWisdom]

Read the sidebar. You get one victim-puke on /r/askmrp. You will get your shit pushed in, but it will make you a better man. No one has the answers for you, but the tools are there.

[ta201909]

I’ve read those, but unfortunately it didn’t change much my current relationship, same struggles as the op.

[ta201909]

Thanks for taking the time to write about this and articulating what I’m living through too. Looking forward to the replies and the books recommended here.