[rangeofmotion]

What I don't understand is why people don't band together and simply refuse, collectively, to pay bills that are well known in the culture to be unreasonable. In particular, student loans. But also a few other things. My god, I know so many people who are struggling that it seems like everyone is struggling. I know people making six figures who are worried about losing their homes. In fact, I've known so many people who have either lost their home, almost lost their home, or are worried about losing their home that it makes up probably a majority of the people I know. Did we forget somewhere along the line that a home is just a patch of dirt with four walls and roof thrown on it? Should it really be that precarious of a thing? How many people do you think go to bed every night worrying about becoming a homeless person? We've turned into a culture that literally has a market that gambles on whether or not people will be able to keep their homes! For christ sake! What kind of sick shit is that? And the whole thing is predicated on people accepting the idea that they have to pay all their unreasonable bills and stressing themselves out willingly over the process of paying them. At what point do people throw their hands up and say "fuck it, this is unreasonable"?

[shados]

> In particular, student loans

Only if we're also collectively telling people not to take them in the first place. The current culture telling everyone to go to expensive private colleges, then bitching that they're burdened with loans and not pay them, is pretty toxic.

Its should be a multi step thing. - Tell people how bad student loans are and how they shouldn't take them if they don't have a plan to pay them back.

- Educate people on alternative, like trade schools, apprenticeships, etc. Stop glorifying bachelor degrees beyond what they are (that should and often happens even in countries where education is paid by the gov!)

- Then, yeah, start doing something to reduce debt burden on those who were affected before the previous two steps were in place.

Otherwise, if we keep pushing for school loans but then tell people not to pay them, or forgive them, it's basically free education (a good thing) without actually collectively agreeing on making education free (which is kind of sketchy)

[rangeofmotion]

I get what you're saying. I agree that college and university should be looked at differently going forward for a lot of people. It's just that there is a problem that exists right this minute, with an entire generation of people who already took the loans, not realizing the outcome they would face. I'm just looking at all the wreckage and sense of instability people have all around me right now, and it seems to make sense that some collective action should take place. Unless we just want to punish people until they are middle aged or older for not being financially savvy when they were 18 years old.

But my point wasn't really to pick out just student loans. Not just due to people being burdened with student loans but a wide variety of other issues... We're more and more seeing people who hope to be able to save their own lives with GoFundMe campaigns because they can't afford to stay alive. We're seeing the idea of owning a home fade for giant swaths of the population. One third of the country is currently "subprime" in the eyes of financial institutions. And my understanding is that percentage is expected go up. The Dollar Store's massive growth is predicated on the forecast of "a permanent underclass in America". I'm seeing, hearing, and reading about so many people having a hard time every single day. And I'm reading about the country readjusting to accommodate the situation as a permanent reality. If the institutions cannot help, then I do think it's probably reasonable for the people to force the issue, given how prevalent we are seeing these problems become.

[shados]

Yup. Thats why I think all 3 of my points above need to happen at the same time. Working toward forgiving debts while still handing them out is counter productive.

Only semi related, but I also take issue about how we got there in the first place.

"Lets make college free!" "No, this is AMERICAH!~ People should pay for things!" "Ok, then lets give out loans! Gov will insure them, so its win win! People get to go to college but it doesnt cost anything!" "Ok, lets do that!" "Waaaah! People can't pay back, lets forgive their loan" "Err, wait a minute...didn't we say they were gonna be loan exactly so it wouldn't end up with the gov paying for it?"

Its even worse than if it had just been made free straight up, since infinite loans basically made education prices skyrocket mostly unchecked. This bullshit happens everywhere in the US (see: healthcare). And this is the worse of all world: you have "free market" problems, unbound pricing problems, AND the government picks up the tab. Fail on all counts.

But that's a different issue. For now, yes, lets do something about all the people who are fucked, BUT AT THE SAME TIME lets tackle the root cause.

[Domenic_S]

I don't disagree with any of these points, just had a tangentially-related thought: wouldn't making college "free" be a forcing function to tighten admission criteria, further stratifying social classes? Schools can be a bit loose today since basically anyone with a pulse can get student loans.

Just thinking out loud; I suspect looking at other countries who do this would be informative...

[shados]

> be a forcing function to tighten admission criteria, further stratifying social classes

Thats why apprenticeships and trade schools need better marketing. The glorification of bachelor degrees is toxic.

[kjsbfkjbf]

And looking at other countries it doesn't tighten social classes more than having a 50k barrier... per year.

[majormajor]

> The current culture telling everyone to go to expensive private colleges, then bitching that they're burdened with loans and not pay them, is pretty toxic.

These values aren't pushed by the same people.

The people telling everyone to go to college and take out the loans are the people enriched by the status quo.

The people telling everyone that this is bullshit are the ones who aren't. The people saying the latter are specifically trying to counter the former. There's no single monoculture that's pushing both ideas at the same time.

And pushing debt forgiveness as a policy to support is a pretty good step, in my mind, towards changing the incentives for the folks who are pushing and profiting the loans...

[ralusek]

Debt forgiveness punishes people who worked their ass off to pay their loans off. Every single person who took out a student loan consented to the terms of the loan. Why is it okay to just mindlessly take out a life ruining amount of money to pursue a degree in something of absolutely no marketable value to society? Why are taxpayers suddenly encouraging the continued subsidization of educations which have been proven to have been valueless to society? In fact, I would argue that the majority of these valueless educations are actually worse than valueless, they're ideologically indoctrinating with a divisive and destructive set of principles.

Stop federally backing loans, change the culture to move away from defacto bachelor's degree, and reign in the absurd admissions for public universities. It is not morally justifiable to suddenly foist the collective horrible decision making of a generation onto the larger society.

If we're really at the point where people are incapable of providing real market value to society, we need to talk about UBI. What we shouldn't be talking about is financially incentivizing behavior that is not desirable.

[bancars]

> Debt forgiveness punishes people who worked their ass off to pay their loans off.

So we should just continue burdening people into the poorhouse (or worse)? I feel for everyone burdened by ridiculous student loans (I am one of those people), but I would gladly take on everyone else’s debt forever if it meant people could have their education and be debt-free. Should we talk about my friends who have to decide if they pay their rent or their student loans every month? Does your righteous indignation do anything to help them? “I suffered so you have to suffer too” is toxic; it’s basically frat hazing.

As for why it’s okay to take out a ruinous loan, I was 17, and I didn’t fucking know any better. Everyone told us to go to college or else we’d wind up destitute. And they were partially right, at least if you managed to get a “profitable” degree. My high school-educated friends have shitty service jobs and alcohol addiction now. I have loans, and I’d rather not, but at least I have any hope for a future. That’s more than I can say for a lot of my other friends.

> It is not morally justifiable to suddenly foist the collective horrible decision making of a generation onto the larger society.

That would be the Baby Boomers, right? Because I’m pretty sure they (and their parents) are the ones who all voted to end state funding for universities. They also voted for politicians with ties to the financial industry, so conveniently the same people making it necessary to take out loans are also shareholders of large financial institutions.

No, what’s morally indefensible is bankrupting someone for getting an education, and then berating them for making a bad decision when they were 17, a decision practically guaranteed by a rigged system. What’s also morally indefensible are the attitudes that this is someone their faults, because at the end of the day, we all still have student loans, and no amount of your pedestal-sitting is going to change that.

[shados]

> that this is someone (I assume somehow) their faults

They certainly don't take zero blame, especially if it happened in the last decade. The student debt crisis has been front and center for a while now. If in the last few years someone did that, and they don't know any better, they're seriously living under a rock.

The system should change, and Im not even against forgiving debts because it might just be straight up better to do for society, but saying the people who take on those loans and sign at the bottom have zero responsibility? They turn 18 long before they're completely crushed with the debts, and if I was to tell an 18 years old that they can't make decisions they're responsible for, I'd get an earful.

[girvo]

It’s about incentives. We were told in no uncertain terms that as a 17 year old making this life changing decision: do it, or be poor forever.

Now. I personally didn’t listen properly, dropped out after two years and did something else. But I don’t blame those who didn’t. Everything in modern middle class society and schooling was based around it.

So focusing on the individuals responsibility above and beyond that of the broken system that we have no choice but to join seems, well, cruel to me — even if I did personally follow your advice.

[girvo]

Treating degrees as only being useful if they teach a direct marketable skill is a shame, I think, but with how expensive it is now I understand why there’s a push towards it.

[eli_gottlieb]

>The current culture telling everyone to go to expensive private colleges

"Everyone" doesn't go to expensive private colleges. Of those who continue on from high-school at all, 75% attend a publicly owned institution, usually community college.

[yellowapple]

Are state colleges not also publicly owned? Those ain't nearly as affordable as community colleges.

When I was in high school, being railroaded into prioritizing CSU or UC admission requirements over graduation requirements was the norm even for students (like me) who had effectively zero chance of getting into one of those schools immediately after high school (let alone getting a scholarship or meaningful financial aid or any other way to avoid a predatory student loan).

[eli_gottlieb]

>Are state colleges not also publicly owned? Those ain't nearly as affordable as community colleges.

They are publicly owned, and can be made affordable by legislatures without interfering in private organizations.

[shados]

I didn't say go to expensive private colleges, I said TELLING people to go to expensive private colleges. And of course, "everyone" is an hyperbole in this context.

[DiffEq]

Perhaps it could start with, yeah I don't need that unreasonable brand new car with a 72 month payment plan, or I can take these college courses for 1/10 the cost at a community college rather than a more unreasonable expensive school, or I don't need that unreasonable 5500 square foot McMansion in that fancy neighborhood, or I don't need that unreasonable 10th pair of jeans, that unreasonable new iphone, etc. People bury themselves with debt - and not because they can't do math, but because they DON'T. Instead they make impulsive, emotional decisions. Hardly anything good ever comes from them. Unreasonable bills usually come from unreasonable decisions (Medical bills being an obvious exception).

[rangeofmotion]

I can understand this sentiment. And it certainly applies to some people. But honestly I don't think the majority of people struggling are driving fancy cars or living in McMansions. Most of the people I personally know (which is a lot of people) drive an average car, live in an average home or condo, and don't live lavish lives. Most are just saddled with some combination of common factors like high cost of housing, student loans, unexpected medical bills, etc. The majority of people are just trying to live average lives but are constantly having to walk a tightrope for just that.

[jjeaff]

What's your definition of average? Because a $30k Mazda should not be average. It's way too expensive for most people. Also, you probably don't need one for each member of the family.

A 3,500 sq ft house with granite countertops and hardwood flooring for 4 people should probably not be average either.

With the exception of a few markets with very expensive land, we have a consumption problem. We have a keeping up with the Jones problem.

You don't have nearly as much worry about losing your home if you spend below your means.

[rangeofmotion]

I have spent a lot of time with a lot of families from wildly varied economic backgrounds. I'm not talking about people with brand new cars and 3,500 square foot houses (that would be a McMansion, I believe). I'm talking about Hondas and weather-worn Dodge pickups parked at a condo or a very modest house in a working class neighborhood.

Sure, the keeping up with the Jones thing is happening with a lot of people. But that does not appear to be the bulk of the problem. Heck, just drive through the country and tell me if you spot more McMansions or more McShacks.

[chrshawkes]

I feel my 3300 sq ft house for me, 2 kids and a dog is reasonable. Even townhouses these days are huge. I consider McMansions to be excess of 4000 sq ft.

[jjeaff]

3300 is above average. For what it's worth, wikipedia says more than 3,000 sq ft and has a citation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMansion

But there are other criteria as well.

[gfs78]

But then, are some of these things really needed? I don't have a car, I have a basic smartphone, and old basic laptop, not much in terms of clothes, and I don't travel abroad for holidays (all this because I cannot afford something better without getting into debt) and I get by fine (and I'm 40). Most millenials have at least a car (even a cheap one) or nice phones with nice data plans, or clothes, or travel to nice places at least once a year. Most of their debt is self-chosen.

[bobthepanda]

Most Americans do not live in areas where you could reasonably live without a car, and transit-rich, walkable areas have much higher rents.

[UncleMeat]

Surely you'd agree that there are people who are struggling financially that don't have a lease on a $40,000 car and a mortgage on a 6BR home.

"Just don't buy expensive shit" isn't an option when rent is increasing faster than wages.

[leetcrew]

keep in mind, DiffEq is responding to a post that mentions people making six figures who are struggling to keep their homes.

there are certainly a lot of people out there who would be feeling the squeeze anywhere, but if you're making six figures and you're in danger of losing your home, you are probably doing something wrong. your house is too big, you live in the wrong place, or both.

right now I'm living pretty comfortably spending <$30k a year. I understand salaries and COL vary in different places, but most people who make six figures in an expensive area could certainly take a more humble job in a less expensive region and live a fine life.

[empath75]

The people loaning them money bear some responsibility, also. If it’s obvious to you that it’s a bad loan it should be even more obvious to the bank, but they shield themselves from their poor decision making by wrapping the debt into instruments that they unload onto some other poor sucker.

[leetcrew]

certainly the banks fail to do their due diligence on a lot of these loans, but in some cases they are actually required by the government to issue them, even if it goes against their better judgment.

[zaphirplane]

First of all you are encouraging stealing, accept a loan and refuse to pay it back

Second you don’t want to pay it to spend the money one what life essentials

Third no one made you borrow no one made you enroll, you had a lot of other options accepting responsibility for your choice is a good thing

Lastly whom would you like to pay for your pick of university and your pick of courses

[rangeofmotion]

I don't think you can say concretely that this would be stealing. That would be an extremely simplistic view. Remember, I'm talking about "bills that are well known in the culture to be unreasonable". For example, we can firmly say that the price of higher education has been inflated beyond reason and certainly beyond its actual value. Many have said it. Papers, articles, documentaries, and so on have been produced about it. The current popular theory is that the government guaranteeing the loans incentivized the colleges to hike up the fees drastically, screwing an entire generation by gouging them unreasonably. And if you want to say that students didn't have to make the choice to go to college, well, then you're ignoring the fact that people have been drilling it into young people for quite some time that they won't be able to make it in future America if they don't get a higher education degree. I know parents today who are extremely cash-strapped who nonetheless feel they need their kids to go to college so they won't become serfs in the future economy. I even know parents who have gotten divorced purely so that their kid could receive some form of financial aid (only one parent income shown) so they would be able to afford college. So a ton of students and parents felt like they had no choice but to accept these loans if they wanted to make it in America's future economy. And this idea continues today, though it's slowly starting to receive some pushback. On the whole, these people didn't go to college purely because it would be a fun way to study creative writing. Essentially, the colleges rode the wave of fear and hiked up the price, bolstered by the government guaranteeing they would get paid no matter what. One can ultimately argue that the colleges stole from the students who have historically felt like they had to go if they wanted to make it and be able to secure a middle class position in society.

Unreasonable price inflation combined with a sense of necessity or even physical necessity (health care) exists elsewhere in our economy as well. You can argue that our current political situation is due largely to people who are mad as hell over their life being impacted negatively by these things.

As for what life essentials they'll spend the money on, well, we can ask the burgeoning van dwellers movement (people who live in their cars) as well as those people who are running GoFundMe campaigns so they can afford medicine or a medical procedure. You can ask people who are moving out of the country because they can afford a better life in places like India (I just read about this the other day). You can ask the people who just marched to Canada to buy insulin at a reasonable price.

[biql]

> Did we forget somewhere along the line that a home is just a patch of dirt with four walls and roof thrown on it?

The cost of home is largely the right to live in a certain location and have timely access to certain places. That's what everyone wants. No only walls but clean water, air, safety, culture, groceries, jobs, parks, entertainments, infrastructure, government protection, good schools, and so on. There are probably thousand little things that make the cost of a home, all of which are highly desirable everyone.

[AlwaysRock]

Student loans are not unreasonable. Rising education costs are unreasonable. But anyone who took on student loans did so willingly.

[kaesar14]

There are many who would argue that the willingness of a 18 year old to shoulder enormous financial responsibility to gain benefits largely denied to them by the way modern American society is constructed is not a real defense of the reasonableness of student loans.

[AcerbicZero]

Sure, but that opens up a lot of other difficult topics, all of which are very nuanced. If we're not going to consider 18 year old's adults, we need to re-visit the age limits on voting, military service, and other large financial contracts.

In the end, it always comes down to (some degree of) personal responsibility. Just because the government (or your job, or your family, or some guy you met on the street) offers you a new and novel way of ruining your life, it doesn't mean you have to take it. If the choice is pay your student loans and keep your credit score, or pay your rent and avoid being homeless, well, that's a terrible choice to have to make, but the answer is obvious, and the manner by which someone ended up in that situation is also pretty obvious.

[rangeofmotion]

But is that the type of society we want? One in which a rather large percentage of the population is dealing with those terrible choices regularly? And the rest of the population says "you should have been smart enough to not fall for it"?

Personal responsibility matters for sure. And to have freedom we have to allow personal responsibility rather than try and protect everyone from everything. But if someone comes up with a clever way to put a massive number of people in debt by leveraging common human failings, to the point that it threatens their ability to have shelter, do we not do something about it rather than allowing that clever someone to just become king (metaphorical)? Not to mention, wouldn't we want to head off both the growing apathy by some and the growing anger by others towards the rest of us lest it eventually threaten the country itself and its character?

[kaesar14]

I disagree massively with your last point, on the manner by which someone ended up there being obvious. Our current children are being raised by parents who grew up in a very different time, and the world has never been more complex. The tradeoff isn’t as simple as an educated adult making a bad financial decision, it’s actual children taking on huge burdens with little to no guidance in complete accordance with what society is telling them to do to get ahead, cause thats what worked 30 years ago.

[Domenic_S]

> actual children

18-year-olds are not "Actual children".

> taking on huge burdens with little to no guidance

I don't know if this is still the case but when I took out student loans nearly two decades ago I had to go through "entrance counseling" and "exit counseling", explaining very clearly and meticulously what I was getting myself into.

[kaesar14]

Sure, not legally, but relative to the life experience required to even somewhat competently navigate the complexities of the modern world, 18 year olds are functionally children. Your entire life to that point is school, for many people, sheltered from the harsher realities of life and finances.

That entrance and exit loan counseling is a privilege for sure. I just graduated from a top 25 ranked private school and was never given loan counseling, and none of my peers were either. Thankfully I picked a high paying field, succeeded in it, and had parents with a ton of financial knowledge to help me effectively plan how to pay for it all, but the vast majority of my peers had no such luck on those three fronts. It’s especially telling that you went to school two decades ago, as no one going to school right now legitimately thinks the college student loan process is clearly presented in terms that are easy for the AVERAGE 18 year old to understand. Meanwhile, the costs have gone up...I don’t know, at least 100% since you went to school? Shit, tuition went up 4 grand while I was still in school.

[AlwaysRock]

There are lot's of other options than taking out massive loans. Community College for two years then transferring to a state school is still fairly affordable and won't impact the vast majority of individuals in post-college job searches/careers.

It's just a lot less fun than going to a Big 10 school or the big name school.

[dragonwriter]

Well-endowed private schools often offer more grant-based financial assistance than public schools, to the extent that the net cost for people who aren't upper income can be less than CC plus state school, as well as providing much better career prospects.

[c0nsilienc3]

I would add medical bills to that as well. Some emergency room bills have asinine charges, and many aren't itemized very well. For example, you could have a bill that says:

Emergency room: $5,000 ECG: $300 Radiology: $600 Laboratory: $750

And maybe you just went in with chest pain from asthma where they took some quick labs and an x-ray, sent you home after breathing treatment and no prescriptions for anything, and now you have a $7,000+ bill after spending 13 hours in the ER. Most of that time was spent sitting around staring at a wall.

[egypturnash]

The debt-owners have spent a lot of money lobbying politicians to pass laws that make it harder to declare bankruptcy.

The debt-owners can hire much more expensive lawyers than you can. The debt-owners have gotten you to sign a contract that says any disputes will be handled by an arbitration bureau, in person, in a state where the laws are most in their favor.

The debt-owners have the cops on their side.

What are you doing about this? Who do you vote for, who do you give money to? Both in terms of political or charitable donations and in terms of who your landlord's giving money to, what the entertainment corporations you patronize are giving money to, etc.

(Not just you: everyone who agrees with this. Including me. I know I'm sure not dropping everything to fight the creeping economic injustice that's burning the Earth alive and concentrating more and more money in the hands of fewer and fewer people.)

[benj111]

"In fact, I've known so many people who have either lost their home, almost lost their home, or are worried about losing their home that it makes up probably a majority of the people I know."

Doesn't seem to match up with

"Did we forget somewhere along the line that a home is just a patch of dirt with four walls and roof thrown on it"

I guess these people aren't struggling to afford a hut on a patch of dirt. I also guess you aren't condemning the majority of people you know as spendthrifts. So how are you reconciling the 2?

[daodedickinson]

>What I don't understand is why people don't band together and simply refuse, collectively, to pay bills that are well known in the culture to be unreasonable. In particular, student loans.

Or taxes, when they are being used to recklessly loan so much money.

[Smithalicious]

Also known as, you know, theft.

[colorado4444]

Try building your own house or your own car and then you might have some respect for the amount of work and expertise that goes into it. A house is not dirt with four walls and a roof... that's a tent. I've built one solo, banging nails and cutting wood. Buying one or renting one lets you skip a lot of work.

[krageon]

> refuse, collectively, to pay bills

What will happen is that some very unpleasant men will come by and take things from you until you have paid it off or are so miserable you will start paying again. These guys are essentially paid to take things from you, so it's not like they'll stop either.

[omegbule]

I respect the Irish in this regard when they refused to pay for a water bill that was introduced. They collectively managed to have it reversed as far as I can remember.

[DiseasedBadger]

Immediately before other people stop giving them money they don't pay back.

I think what you don't understand is how math works.