[shados]

> In particular, student loans

Only if we're also collectively telling people not to take them in the first place. The current culture telling everyone to go to expensive private colleges, then bitching that they're burdened with loans and not pay them, is pretty toxic.

Its should be a multi step thing. - Tell people how bad student loans are and how they shouldn't take them if they don't have a plan to pay them back.

- Educate people on alternative, like trade schools, apprenticeships, etc. Stop glorifying bachelor degrees beyond what they are (that should and often happens even in countries where education is paid by the gov!)

- Then, yeah, start doing something to reduce debt burden on those who were affected before the previous two steps were in place.

Otherwise, if we keep pushing for school loans but then tell people not to pay them, or forgive them, it's basically free education (a good thing) without actually collectively agreeing on making education free (which is kind of sketchy)

[rangeofmotion]

I get what you're saying. I agree that college and university should be looked at differently going forward for a lot of people. It's just that there is a problem that exists right this minute, with an entire generation of people who already took the loans, not realizing the outcome they would face. I'm just looking at all the wreckage and sense of instability people have all around me right now, and it seems to make sense that some collective action should take place. Unless we just want to punish people until they are middle aged or older for not being financially savvy when they were 18 years old.

But my point wasn't really to pick out just student loans. Not just due to people being burdened with student loans but a wide variety of other issues... We're more and more seeing people who hope to be able to save their own lives with GoFundMe campaigns because they can't afford to stay alive. We're seeing the idea of owning a home fade for giant swaths of the population. One third of the country is currently "subprime" in the eyes of financial institutions. And my understanding is that percentage is expected go up. The Dollar Store's massive growth is predicated on the forecast of "a permanent underclass in America". I'm seeing, hearing, and reading about so many people having a hard time every single day. And I'm reading about the country readjusting to accommodate the situation as a permanent reality. If the institutions cannot help, then I do think it's probably reasonable for the people to force the issue, given how prevalent we are seeing these problems become.

[shados]

Yup. Thats why I think all 3 of my points above need to happen at the same time. Working toward forgiving debts while still handing them out is counter productive.

Only semi related, but I also take issue about how we got there in the first place.

"Lets make college free!" "No, this is AMERICAH!~ People should pay for things!" "Ok, then lets give out loans! Gov will insure them, so its win win! People get to go to college but it doesnt cost anything!" "Ok, lets do that!" "Waaaah! People can't pay back, lets forgive their loan" "Err, wait a minute...didn't we say they were gonna be loan exactly so it wouldn't end up with the gov paying for it?"

Its even worse than if it had just been made free straight up, since infinite loans basically made education prices skyrocket mostly unchecked. This bullshit happens everywhere in the US (see: healthcare). And this is the worse of all world: you have "free market" problems, unbound pricing problems, AND the government picks up the tab. Fail on all counts.

But that's a different issue. For now, yes, lets do something about all the people who are fucked, BUT AT THE SAME TIME lets tackle the root cause.

[Domenic_S]

I don't disagree with any of these points, just had a tangentially-related thought: wouldn't making college "free" be a forcing function to tighten admission criteria, further stratifying social classes? Schools can be a bit loose today since basically anyone with a pulse can get student loans.

Just thinking out loud; I suspect looking at other countries who do this would be informative...

[shados]

> be a forcing function to tighten admission criteria, further stratifying social classes

Thats why apprenticeships and trade schools need better marketing. The glorification of bachelor degrees is toxic.

[kjsbfkjbf]

And looking at other countries it doesn't tighten social classes more than having a 50k barrier... per year.

[majormajor]

> The current culture telling everyone to go to expensive private colleges, then bitching that they're burdened with loans and not pay them, is pretty toxic.

These values aren't pushed by the same people.

The people telling everyone to go to college and take out the loans are the people enriched by the status quo.

The people telling everyone that this is bullshit are the ones who aren't. The people saying the latter are specifically trying to counter the former. There's no single monoculture that's pushing both ideas at the same time.

And pushing debt forgiveness as a policy to support is a pretty good step, in my mind, towards changing the incentives for the folks who are pushing and profiting the loans...

[ralusek]

Debt forgiveness punishes people who worked their ass off to pay their loans off. Every single person who took out a student loan consented to the terms of the loan. Why is it okay to just mindlessly take out a life ruining amount of money to pursue a degree in something of absolutely no marketable value to society? Why are taxpayers suddenly encouraging the continued subsidization of educations which have been proven to have been valueless to society? In fact, I would argue that the majority of these valueless educations are actually worse than valueless, they're ideologically indoctrinating with a divisive and destructive set of principles.

Stop federally backing loans, change the culture to move away from defacto bachelor's degree, and reign in the absurd admissions for public universities. It is not morally justifiable to suddenly foist the collective horrible decision making of a generation onto the larger society.

If we're really at the point where people are incapable of providing real market value to society, we need to talk about UBI. What we shouldn't be talking about is financially incentivizing behavior that is not desirable.

[bancars]

> Debt forgiveness punishes people who worked their ass off to pay their loans off.

So we should just continue burdening people into the poorhouse (or worse)? I feel for everyone burdened by ridiculous student loans (I am one of those people), but I would gladly take on everyone else’s debt forever if it meant people could have their education and be debt-free. Should we talk about my friends who have to decide if they pay their rent or their student loans every month? Does your righteous indignation do anything to help them? “I suffered so you have to suffer too” is toxic; it’s basically frat hazing.

As for why it’s okay to take out a ruinous loan, I was 17, and I didn’t fucking know any better. Everyone told us to go to college or else we’d wind up destitute. And they were partially right, at least if you managed to get a “profitable” degree. My high school-educated friends have shitty service jobs and alcohol addiction now. I have loans, and I’d rather not, but at least I have any hope for a future. That’s more than I can say for a lot of my other friends.

> It is not morally justifiable to suddenly foist the collective horrible decision making of a generation onto the larger society.

That would be the Baby Boomers, right? Because I’m pretty sure they (and their parents) are the ones who all voted to end state funding for universities. They also voted for politicians with ties to the financial industry, so conveniently the same people making it necessary to take out loans are also shareholders of large financial institutions.

No, what’s morally indefensible is bankrupting someone for getting an education, and then berating them for making a bad decision when they were 17, a decision practically guaranteed by a rigged system. What’s also morally indefensible are the attitudes that this is someone their faults, because at the end of the day, we all still have student loans, and no amount of your pedestal-sitting is going to change that.

[shados]

> that this is someone (I assume somehow) their faults

They certainly don't take zero blame, especially if it happened in the last decade. The student debt crisis has been front and center for a while now. If in the last few years someone did that, and they don't know any better, they're seriously living under a rock.

The system should change, and Im not even against forgiving debts because it might just be straight up better to do for society, but saying the people who take on those loans and sign at the bottom have zero responsibility? They turn 18 long before they're completely crushed with the debts, and if I was to tell an 18 years old that they can't make decisions they're responsible for, I'd get an earful.

[girvo]

It’s about incentives. We were told in no uncertain terms that as a 17 year old making this life changing decision: do it, or be poor forever.

Now. I personally didn’t listen properly, dropped out after two years and did something else. But I don’t blame those who didn’t. Everything in modern middle class society and schooling was based around it.

So focusing on the individuals responsibility above and beyond that of the broken system that we have no choice but to join seems, well, cruel to me — even if I did personally follow your advice.

[girvo]

Treating degrees as only being useful if they teach a direct marketable skill is a shame, I think, but with how expensive it is now I understand why there’s a push towards it.

[eli_gottlieb]

>The current culture telling everyone to go to expensive private colleges

"Everyone" doesn't go to expensive private colleges. Of those who continue on from high-school at all, 75% attend a publicly owned institution, usually community college.

[yellowapple]

Are state colleges not also publicly owned? Those ain't nearly as affordable as community colleges.

When I was in high school, being railroaded into prioritizing CSU or UC admission requirements over graduation requirements was the norm even for students (like me) who had effectively zero chance of getting into one of those schools immediately after high school (let alone getting a scholarship or meaningful financial aid or any other way to avoid a predatory student loan).

[eli_gottlieb]

>Are state colleges not also publicly owned? Those ain't nearly as affordable as community colleges.

They are publicly owned, and can be made affordable by legislatures without interfering in private organizations.

[shados]

I didn't say go to expensive private colleges, I said TELLING people to go to expensive private colleges. And of course, "everyone" is an hyperbole in this context.