[jholloway7]

Lifting weights can help, but it can also cause more harm when your routine isn't properly balanced. Doing only bench press and military press lifts for upper body is going to be a chest/tricep push heavy routine.

If you're not balancing these pushes with pulls (chinups, pullups, rows, etc), it can promote issues like rolled shoulders, forward neck, weak traps, weak rhomboids or similar postural issues to those the author is trying to avoid in the first place. In fact, many lifters will add more pulls than pushes, because our day-to-day activities tend to be more push-oriented.

The point is, if you're going to lift, pick a beginner's routine designed by someone who knows what they're doing that has push/pull balance programmed in from the outset. Don't just pick a couple lifts that you enjoy and throw out the rest.

[Floegipoky]

This. So much this. But even a cookie-cutter program can lead you down the wrong road because they assume that the person beginning the program is healthy. Most of the readers here spend our lives in globally flexed positions with abducted, elevated, and internally rotated shoulders and flexed, externally rotated hips. When we go to the gym, we need to train for the opposite. Training for global extension, especially emphasizing thoracic extension, is essential; it all starts and ends at the spine. External rotation at the shoulders is also important, as is scapular retraction and depression. Many keyboard users suffer from lengthened scapular adductors which (speaking from experience) may lead to anterior capsule impingement as the shoulder blades gradually 'wing' out farther and farther from the spine and force the glenohumeral joint forward. People like this (me) need to take extra care about how they train pressing.

The human body is a very complicated machine, but you have to start with the idea of a mechanical system. If the system isn't aligned properly (eg your posture sucks, you have a dysfunctional deep core, you're missing significant range of motion, etc) you have no business putting stress on the system. Weight training has a lot of benefits but most people end up just reinforcing their poor mechanics. When you grab a 5x5 off the Internet, you're basically betting that your body will automagically realign itself to normal (whatever that means) before you damage it beyond the point of recovery.

My advice- don't focus on moving weight, focus on moving correctly and use the weight as a tool to learn how. If you don't have a solid foundation in exercise fundamentals (your freshman football strength coach probably doesn't qualify), use a non-challenging weight while you learn. Also, start watching Dr. Kelly Starrett's videos.

[PeterisP]

Hey, you say "When we go to the gym, we need to train for the opposite" but then go into lots of terms that I don't understand.

Can you give a short "ELI5" list of popular exercises which should be avoided/limited with these posture issues, and which typical exercises would fill the lacking areas?

[omginternets]

If you want an "out-of-the-box" routine that's simple and balanced, I'd recommend "stronglifts" [0]. To be sure, it's a very strength-centric routine, but you can very well dial it back to twice a week and complement it with a weekly run.

The reason I suggest this particular regimen is threefold:

1. it's simple

2. the "culture" of stronglifts focuses heavily on proper form

3. the exercises involved are compound (i.e. multi-join, multi-muscle-group) lifts, which reduce the risk of muscular imbalances.

[0] http://stronglifts.com/5x5/

[ryanmarsh]

I did CrossFit, got hurt. Tried again, got hurt. Final time, got hurt.

Did StrongLifts. Got gains. The only injuries came from my Krav Maga instructor. ;-)

[inuhj]

I've been lifting on and off for the past 15 years. I'm currently doing stronglifts after a 4 year lull.

It is not for the beginner. Squats are difficult to do correctly and I spent about an hour watching videos before I attempted it with a personal trainer. Then I kept watching videos to improve form. It's not a simple exercise and it is easy to perform it wrong. Barbell rows are easier to learn but also easy to perform incorrectly. Bench press is pretty safe. Overhead press is pretty safe. Deadlift is worrisome but not so much at the low starting weights of the 5x5.

I would recommend watching a lot of youtube tutorials on how to do the exercises correctly. Do a complete warmup before lifting. Hire a personal trainer who is a weight lifter to make sure you're doing the exercises correctly. Then you can feel comfortable doing it on your own.

[omginternets]

Squats really aren't that hard to learn on your own. There's no reason a level-headed beginner can't start squatting on his own.

If you have a mirror and you start with light weights, you can monitor yourself for form. Yes, there's a bit of due diligence involved, but it ain't exactly rocket science...

That having been said, the importance of doing all of these exercises with proper form cannot be overstated.

[lisivka]

I recommend to use "ladder" technique instead of simple repeats, because it adjusts itself, so no need for app, spreadsheet, or personal trainer to calculate proper weights and number of repeats, moreover, it has lower risk of injure.

Start with x repeats, then count to 20, do x•2, count to 20, do x•3, ..., until you tired, e.g. x•5, count to 100, then do x•4, count to 20, do x•3, count to 20, do x•2, count to 20, do x repeats in row. X can be 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc., e.g. 5, sp, 10, sp, 15, sp, 20, lp, 15, sp, 10, sp, 5, lp, an another exercise...

Important NOTE: Each of downslope repeats must feel like top repeat, i.e. you should be equally tired for X•N, count to 100, X•N-1, count to 20, X•N-2, and so on. If you are not tired, then increase X or weight.

[omginternets]

I don't dislike your suggestion in the least, but it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that a routine like StrongLifts requires an app, spreadsheet or trainer.

You just do 5 sets of 5 reps for a couple of exercises... that's really all there is to it.

[Joof]

So stronglifts is a slightly modified starting strength? I like it; I've been doing starting strength, but I can't do pull-ups very well so when I got to them I had to start with rows.

[omginternets]

Yes, it's more or less the same thing. Potato-potahto, as far as I'm concerned.

>I can't do pull-ups very well

Funny it's the opposite for me. I can do pull-ups all day long but still struggle with bent-over rows to this day. TBH I don't really do rows anymore. I just hold a dumbbell between my thighs and do pull-ups.

[Silhouette]

At the risk of oversimplifying, and with an explicit warning that reading words is no substitute for working with a proper trainer who can plan a good programme, watch your movement live and correct mistakes immediately, and generally help you train safely and effectively...

Planning a good programme mostly isn't about specific exercises, except for avoiding a few that persist in popularity even though they're actually really bad for you. It's more about balancing so you don't focus too much on one area relative to another, and then you also need to use good form when you move so you really are recruiting the muscles you intend to without damaging anything else. If you don't balance your training well, or you train with bad form that has the same end result, a couple of things are likely to go wrong.

The first is if you have opposing muscle groups but train one side much more than the other, either through neglecting exercises on one side or through bad form so you're not getting the full benefit of the exercises you are doing. Barring injury, you'll still strengthen the muscles all right. However, you'll then find that instead of the muscles having a comfortable neutral position and supporting any nearby joints as they should, you permanently have the much stronger side pulling on everything. This makes you vulnerable to all kinds of injuries and complications. It also means that in the real world, your strength will be less useful in practice than it could be. (It's also potentially an underlying cause of bad posture, which I think is where we came in.)

There's no big secret to avoiding this. Just be careful to train both sides of an action reasonably evenly. If you're doing bench press to build up your chest, do some rows to build up your back as well. Shoulder press? Do some pull downs or chin-ups as well. Hitting your triceps? Don't forget your biceps. Be particularly careful with the legs, because so many exercises naturally use a pushing action, but big quads and weak hamstrings does not make for happy knees and hips.

A second very common mistake is to focus mostly or entirely on the bigger, stronger muscle groups. They look great all pumped up, and they do provide the majority of your practical strength. However, your body is also full of little muscles that co-ordinate and stabilise everything else, so you can deploy the strength of your major muscle groups efficiently and safely. If you don't train your supporting muscles to back up the big guns, then sooner or later all the extra power in your big guns is going to get put somewhere that can't handle it, again probably resulting in sprains, strains, or worse.

The best general advice I can offer to avoid this one is to try to focus on compound exercises and free weights for the most part. (A compound exercise just means one that uses multiple joints and muscles together at once. Almost any "big movement" exercise you see at the gym that isn't done with a machine partially controlling the weight/resistance is going to be a compound exercise.) If you use machines to isolate specific major muscle groups, you can really concentrate on building those up, but the machine is probably also lending support to the surrounding joints in a way that natural movement won't. Do that for most or all of your work-out and neglect other kinds of exercises and you'll build up the big muscles but neglect the stabilisers, and the first time you realise it may unfortunately be when you try to move something substantial in real life away from the gym and find you didn't have nearly as much functional strength as that nice increasing weight on the machine made you think you did.

I hope that helps with your question, but again I really can't stress enough how important it is to work with a good trainer, at least to start with, if you want to get into gym work. They're not just there for encouragement or to spot you on a heavy lift, they're also there to help you make the most of your work-out and get better results sooner just through training with a good combination of exercises and good performance when you do them. Finding the right trainer was one of the best life decisions I ever made.

[Floegipoky]

I can only speak from personal experience:

Deadlift- My favorite, the king of lifts! When I say a globally flexed position I'm talking about the fetal position archetype. Next time you're sitting down just imagine transitioning from your seated posture to fetal position. The deadlift is the opposite of this- you start in a flexed position, and then stand up perfectly straight. Make sure to learn how to properly brace before attempting this movement, or really any movement under heavy load.

Bench Press- My back muscles that are in charge of pulling my shoulder blades back and down are stretched out, meaning that my shoulder blades are usually much further forward and up than they should be. When I bench press the tendency is for my shoulder blades to roll forward. When bench pressing, you're supposed to keep your shoulder blades pulled down towards your butt and as close to your spine as possible. This creates stability and room in the front of your shoulder. When I bench press, I have to put in extra effort and use a light load to make sure can I keep my shoulder blades in the right position. This forward rolling is also associated with activation of the internal rotator cuff, which is bad- your rotator cuff isn't meant to handle that much load. So it's also very important for me to use a close grip and keep my elbows close to my body, maybe a 15-20 degree angle at my armpit in the bottom position.

Squat- I'm missing a significant amount of internal rotation at the hip. Sit in a chair with your feet on the floor, then without changing the angle between your upper and lower leg rotate your right foot up and to the right. This is internal rotation. External would be putting your right foot on your left knee. Part of my restriction is due to a lifetime of poor habits, but part of it is due to my hip structure. Think of a dog with hip dysplasia. This, combined with a tight posterior chain, makes it impossible for me right now to squat without compromising in some way. I find that elevating my heels slightly (often I'll just stand with my heels on 5lb plates) and pointing my toes slightly out (10 degrees) creates more room in my hip, allowing me to achieve a parallel squat. The danger of this is that without your feet flat on the ground straight ahead, you aren't integrating your lower legs into the movement in a natural fashion. Make sure to keep your knees 'not in' so that your arch doesn't collapse. A collapsed arch not only bleeds power, but the accompanying inward movement of the knee (valgus) can cause ligament tears.

Pullup- The same issue I have with the bench press where my shoulders roll forward under high stress. I usually don't have any trouble maintaining form as long as I consciously think about keeping my back straight and pulling my elbows down and back, rather than my head up.

[griffinmahon]

Just as a heads up, the adjustment of putting your heels on a 5lb plate is actually used to train depth in the squat. "Ass-to-grass" is the squat standard for weightlifting (i.e., like in a 3rd world squat, you should want to be able to sit down on your heels comfortably), and the idea is that squatting a bit higher weights than you can do without the heels elevated with the heels elevated trains that depth in the movement. Point being, eventually you might be able to get to just under parallel if you keep working on the heel-elevated squats!

Also, re toes slightly out, this is how you should squat, you shouldn't square up with the rack or keep your feet parallel, because (again, referencing the 3rd world squat) if you were to sit down on your heels, mobility permitting, you would basically have to have your toes slightly outward.

[stevenwiles]

ELI5?

[forestjc]

"Explain like i'm five"

[maxwelljoslyn]

What advice do you have for learning to move correctly with only bodyweight training, not lifting weights? I don't have access to a gym right now, but when I do have access later this year, I'd like for my body to be (closer to) properly aligned so I can start lifting weights again without reinforcing bad posture, etc.

(edit: I'm trying to ask the same question as the sister comment by PeterP)

[jpallen]

Take a look at /r/bodyweightfitness: https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness. They've put together a routine for beginners that is excellent: https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/wiki/kb/recommend...

[ryanmarsh]

No matter what: Lift heavy shit over your head properly, repeat, and you will get strong.

If you're looking for the README.md just going with StrongLifts works for a wide segment of people.

Lots of people have different opinions and systems of fitness but just keep that truth in mind.

[bovermyer]

All good advice. Are you familiar with sites like Nerd Fitness and GMB Fitness? They both focus on online self-driven instruction rather than in-person coaching, but each seems to offer an interesting angle on enhancement of physical movement, especially the latter.

[ZeroFries]

Yep, getting a strong back (from pull type movements, as well as squats and deadlifts) has improved my posture more than anything else. Another to look into is weak/mis-firing glutes (from sitting all the time). Apparently planks (of a certain kind where you squeeze your glutes as well) help for that.

http://www.romphysicaltherapy.ie/best-exercises-to-strengthe...

[jholloway7]

Totally agree!

[SuperPaintMan]

I'm 6'4 and have always had issues with bad posture. Text-neck and bad eyesight go hand in hand, if you wear glasses Be sure your prescription is up to date! After using the same pair of glasses for three years and swapping them out the sheer amount of hunch eases out of my routine.

Keeping lower back muscles strengthened also helps. I've found rollerblading through my city and its trails to be an excellent low-impact cardio workout. A cheap pair of Bauers goes for 80$ at CanTire, and pairs perfectly with the Hackers Soundtrack (1,2,3) (because inline is dead right?).

Proper sized tools also help with RSI. Massive hands and small iPhones/chef knives destroy me. I've picked up some grips for my knives (I'm a chef) and a larger Android device and the cramps have disappeared. Raise surfaces that are routinely used, most surfaces ate meant for normal height workers, not giant lanklets.

[jdpage]

Do you have any specific beginner's routines you'd recommend? I was doing 5x5, which has pulls in the form of barbell rows and deadlifts; I don't know if that's sufficient.

[Floegipoky]

Always put technique first. Start with the basic compound lifts. These represent idealized human movement. Use light loads while you learn what proper technique feels like.

Deadlift- Be careful not to overdo this, especially when you're starting out

Squat- Overhead squat is probably the best variation to master, but goblet squat is probably the easiest

Press

Bench Press

Dip

Pullup

Bent-over Row

You should also challenge your cardiovascular system in some way, preferably one that physically moves your body through space.

In addition, I feel strongly that recreational lifters should always emphasize mechanical alignment and efficiency over force production. So set aside the time to address any movement restrictions, prioritizing those that interfere with your ability to perform the above movements. For instance, if you have 0 degrees of internal rotation at the hip, you aren't going to be able to squat correctly.

[cholantesh]

I agree. Spend a month or two (or more if you have severe mechanical restrictions) familiarizing yourself with the proper form for the major barbell lifts, and then put yourself through a beginner program such as Starting Strength [1] , accompanied with good nutrition[2] and HIIT to keep bodyfat in check.

On a side note, it's interesting to me that you singled out the deadlift, as I found the (back) squat the most challenging lift to master.

[1] - SS prescribes power cleans; I think most people will get more desirable results from rows

[2] - this varies significantly from person to person, and is probably the biggest challenge, as it's a huge inner game

[Floegipoky]

> On a side note, it's interesting to me that you singled out the deadlift, as I found the (back) squat the most challenging lift to master.

I totally agree with you, I feel that the goblet squat, front squat, and eventually the overhead squat are much better for beginners because they emphasize good movement mechanics in a way that the back squat allows you to cheat on (until you end up at the chiropractor).

The reason I put deadlifts first on the list is that I truly believe it to be the most important lift to master- particularly for those who spend most of their time in globally flexed positions while sitting on the primary movers of the posterior chain. Plus, you can't deadlift and not develop bracing technique, which is IMO the most important thing a beginner can learn.

[cholantesh]

I don't think I agree about the OHS; I think it's a move that is better suited to aspiring Olympic lifters due to its complexity and application to the snatch, but I'll leave that argument to the Contrerases of the world.

Very much with you on bracing and its essence in deadlifting, though.

[jholloway7]

For specific beginner programs, GSLP and StrongLifts have always seemed like the two with the lowest barriers to entry of the ones I know about.

I would add weighted chin-ups to any beginner routine that doesn't have them, because I personally like to balance not only the push/pull muscles, but also in the horizontal and vertical planes.

You didn't ask, but my current routine consists of these core/compound lifts:

Workout A) * Bench Press (horizontal push) * Barbell Row (horizontal pull) * Squat (leg-driven push)

Workout B) * Overhead Press (vertical push) * Weighted Chin-Ups (vertical pull) * Deadlift (leg-driven pull)

Any lifts besides these are considered accessory and are only programmed in based on specific needs, e.g. weaknesses/imbalances/posture issues/aesthetic goals. If I can't tie an accessory back to a specific need, then it's just considered fuckarounditis and I eliminate it.

I rotate my rep scheme so I'm not always doing high weight / low rep, but sometimes low weight / high reps or medium weight / medium reps. I do this mostly to not get bored, but also because always doing high weight / low rep can get stressful. I'm probably sacrificing strength gains by slowing my progression down, but I'm okay with it.

Disclaimer: everyone's goals are different. I'm pushing 40 and my goals are to maintain a modest level of strength and overall fit appearance (only working out 3 days a week for < 90 minutes per session) and this is what works for me.

If one's goal is to be a powerlifter, fitness model, bodybuilder, etc. you most likely have to work harder and take your programming even further than I've taken mine.

[antisthenes]

You can always supplement the 5x5 routine with 3x8-10 (typically) accessory exercises with dumbbells.

In some cases dumbbells will give you a better range of motion and help develop smaller muscles.

Another common addition to 5x5 I've seen is adding a dedicated core day (weighted ab crunches, hanging leg raises, planks) Core is the 2nd most important part of doing pull exercises (after back)

[Floegipoky]

> In some cases dumbbells will give you a better range of motion and help develop smaller muscles.

This has always smelled like broscience to me. I guess I'm just skeptical that someone unable to create stable positions with a fixed object (barbell) will have more success creating proper stable positions off of objects that move freely. Based on what I've seen in the gym, it looks like the barbell users usually end up 'collapsing' into stability... then again, most of what I see in the gym are meatheads using way more weight than they should be. Maybe it would be different if priority was given to proper mechanics rather than pressing till your eyeballs bleed.

[forgetsusername]

>most of what I see in the gym are meatheads using way more weight than they should be.

What does that mean? If your goal is to get stronger you have to lift as much weight as possible. Obviously you don't want to hurt yourself, but the emphasis on perfect form over heavy weights is "broscience" if your goal is strength.

>I'm just skeptical that someone unable to create stable positions with a fixed object (barbell) will have more success creating proper stable positions off of objects that move freely.

The whole point is that it's more difficult to maintain stability with dumbells.

[Floegipoky]

Let me clarify. A professional strength athlete will need to move lots of weight, and will occasionally need to compromise form and future health to get it done. That being said, look at the work Kelly Starrett has done with Mark Bell. Perfect form by definition results in the most efficient force production and transfer, and is therefore the most efficient way to increase strength. My understanding is that these days you rarely see elite power athletes compromise form in training, in the same way that you rarely see elite power athletes lifting their max load. My philosophy is that in training, a rep without proper form is a failed rep.

[Joof]

I prefer dumbbells to a regular benchpress, but it's largely because I don't have an exercise partner and I don't want to get trapped underneath a barbell if I can't lift it.

[cholantesh]

If you lift in a gym, one option is dragging a bench into a power rack [1]; this will allow you to bail using the safety bars. Another is to use an olympic bench station (if you have one) to hang the bar up onto a lower hook. If you can't even lift the bar, there's the option of benching without clips [2].

No need to miss out!

[1] : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru0scbx8DuI [2] : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGkRDcMeSTY

[azemetre]

The idea is that you have full range of motion when using a barbell or dumbbells compared to a machine that limits your range of motions to a very strict horizontal/vertical axis.

[stonemetal]

I like the reddit /r/bodyweightfitness recommended routine.

[retrogradeorbit]

Yep. I could not fix my posture until I started lifting. And I mean compound barbell movements. Squat, deadlift, shoulder press, bench press and barbell rows. And then my posture just fixed itself.

Great to see I'm not the only one to discover this. Hopefully many more with poor posture will follow.