[rkischuk]

Almost every time I encounter cyclists in traffic, they context switch between vehicle and pedestrian at their convenience.

If you want to be treated as a vehicle, be a vehicle. Don't block a lane between intersections and then ride the divider lines to advance ahead of cars at every intersection so they can wait and merge around you once the light turns.

As a former bike commuter, I really don't understand why bikes are required to ride the roads and behave like cars. They seem far more compatible to ride sidewalks and co-travel with pedestrians.

[micheljansen]

The thing is, they are neither, really.

Bicycles are not comparable to motor vehicles, as they are much slower (50 km/h vs ~15-20 km/h).

Bicycles are also not comparable to pedestrians, as they are much faster (5 km/h vs ~15-20 km/h).

I think it's a mistake to mix traffic that differs in speed by a factor of 3.

As someone who moved from the Netherlands to London, it has taken me years to adjust to absence of real bicycle lanes. They really do seem like the best answer to me.

[crocowhile]

I agree with you in principle but let me make a cheeky comment: Average speed of a motor vehicle in London is 8.98 mph ( http://www.itv.com/news/london/update/2012-11-19/tfl-average... ) so way lower than average bike commuter speed (~12-15mph)

[micheljansen]

Haha, I'm sure that's true (in fact, it's one of the reasons many prefer cycling), but I'd argue that the average speed matters a lot less than the top speed. Stop and go traffic, where one minute cycles whizz past cars and the next it's the other way around, is probably the worst of both worlds.

[stephendedalus]

I agree. When would you like to exchange your car for a bicycle when the roads are turned back over to pedestrians and cyclists? Road bike or mountain bike?

[joncrocks]

Does that mean we can get 'fast walker' and 'slow walker' lanes as well? :-)

[micheljansen]

Do you walk 3 times as fast as a normal pedestrian? :P

[brandonmenc]

> They seem far more compatible to ride sidewalks and co-travel with pedestrians.

I live in Tempe, AZ near ASU - one of the "most bike friendly" cities in the US, and I can't tell you how many times I've been nearly killed by a bike at full speed weaving in and out of pedestrian traffic on the sidewalk - where it's actually illegal for them to ride.

Bikes do not belong on the sidewalk unless they're moving as slow as a pedestrian, which they never are. They're a hazard.

Many years ago I biked daily on 40 mph city streets, so I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about.

[pascalo]

While I totally understand that it must've felt menacing to nearly have been hit by a bicycle, do you _really_ think it would've killed you?

I also think that cyclists shouldn't ride at speed on the sidewalk, but even if, cyclists causing pedestrian fatalities is extremely rare. It has happened, but it's statistically insignificant when compared to cars killing pedestrians.

There is a big difference between getting hit by 90kg at 30km/h vs 1900kg at 45km/h.

[gknoy]

I think it could indeed kill you. It's rare, but certainly can happen:

""" From 1996 to 2005, 11 pedestrians across New York City died after being struck by bicyclists.... 2006 to 2013, there were just four pedestrian deaths, according to the city’s Department of Transportation. """ [0]

0: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-23/pedestrian...

[pascalo]

Very sad. However, you kind of made my point. That amounts to 0.8 pedestrian fatalities a year caused by cyclists, with a population of 8.4 million people.

[diyorgasms]

That could be partly because it is illegal in many jurisdictions in the United States for a cyclist to ride on the sidewalks.

It is entirely possible that the low bike-on-pedestrian fatality rate is due in part to the law mandating that cyclists and pedestrians be segregated.

[vacri]

Does something have to be fatal before it's worth doing something about? Serious injury doesn't count?

[pascalo]

In the overall road toll, hardly any fatalities are caused by cyclists. In fact, most accidents involving cyclist are caused by drivers.[1]

Don't get me wrong, all of it counts and is sad and regrettable. I do however think there is an anti-cyclist bias ingrained in the perception and reporting of it's dangers, that's out of whack with the real numbers on accidents.

[1] http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3758...

[hueving]

What are you going on about? The person was complaining about bicycles on the sidewalk where it is illegal for them to be. Who cares if they don't kill people that often? It's not the point!

[pascalo]

I am talking about perceived risk of cycling as a hyperbole vs actual risks that don't get mentioned. I'm pretty sure more people get killed by cars mounting the sidewalk.

[brandonmenc]

> do you _really_ think it would've killed you?

I've almost been knocked into a busy 50 mph street by sidewalk cyclists, so yeah.

[kelnos]

Not really the point, I don't think. I expect to be safe from vehicles walking on a sidewalk, period (that's the point of sidewalks). People in/on vehicles, whether cars or bicycles, are taking on much more risk, at their choice.

The real solution is to separate cars and bikes, just like we separate cars and people. Dedicated, buffered bike lanes and safer intersections.

[belorn]

Where I live we have many bike roads, and in similar way, I can't tell how many times I see pedestrians use those roads. Parents with strollers are nearly performing suicide for themselves and their children, a behavior which is likely illegal as well.

It is almost as if everyone only care about conveniences rather than safety. If only everyone followed traffic laws, had dedicated roads for each kind of transportation, and maintenance for each kind of road was identical, then we would not be in this mess. As it stand, people are a hazard to each other when traffic of one kind mixes with an other.

[buro9]

In London this is being answered through speed restrictions.

A gradual move to 20mph on all roads is being introduced: http://www.islington.gov.uk/services/parking-roads/street_im...

Some boroughs have already completed the move (i.e. the link above) and others are following.

Traffic in London rarely gets above 20mph anyway, so it barely impacts. As a driver it makes driving more relaxing and hasn't impacted travel times. As a cyclist, it's a joy to not have vehicles racing to overtake in appropriate places.

[yitchelle]

> They seem far more compatible to ride sidewalks and co-travel with pedestrians.

Pedestrians and bike riders are not compatible either. I am a bike commuter as well. I live in West Germany at the moment, but I have also bike commuted to work in Australia. In general, commuting in Germany is a much safer proposition than in Australia. The German drivers seem to be more aware and tolerance to the bike commuters. The bike riding paths are also very well configured and designed, minimising the risk of accidents.

[claudius]

I’m cycling to work in Munich at the moment. There’s a little piece (~800m) of one-way street with traffic lights at both ends. Due to the layout of the initial traffic lights, cyclists usually enter that street before traffic, as they have to obey their special bike-traffic-light.

On that street, cars attempt and do pass by me every day, despite there definitely not being enough room for a bike and a car to move next to each other – resulting in them passing by at distances of as little as 1m! Did I mention the speed limit of 30 km/h there and that I’m usually doing exactly that?

There’s also at least once a day some idiot who thinks he can turn right over the bike lane without checking for actual bikes on that lane and another idiot who considers the bike lane a very convenient parking spot. There are also usually two to three cases where a driver attempting to turn into the main street from the right (without right of way) stops on the bike lane and then gets upset if one attempts to drive around them.

The idea that German drivers are aware or tolerant of bikes is absolutely ridiculous – though of course they may be more aware and tolerant than Australian bikers, but I don’t know that (:

Unfortunately, policing these traffic violations seems to be perfectly uncommon here.

Of course, most of these wouldn’t be issues if we treated bikes like cars with the exact same rights and obligations as cars.

[ThrustVectoring]

IMO, if you're going fast enough and there isn't room for cars to pass, you should be riding down the center of the lane. Especially if there's hazards in the bike lane.

Don't let people do stuff that compromises your safety.

[ptaipale]

> Of course, most of these wouldn’t be issues if we treated bikes like cars with the exact same rights and obligations as cars.

Hmm, I suppose you did not mean this, but I think that mandating a bike rider's license, registration, insurance and annual tax would not help that much to remove problems.

Overall, I don't see how bikes could have the exact same rights and obligations as cars, although overall both are vehicles and should be treated as vehicles, equally. Still, you can't ride a bike on an Autobahn, and neither can you drive a tractor. You may or may not be allowed to ride bike on a road that is dedicated to buses, although you may be allowed to ride a bike there. Etc, etc. Bikes cannot and shouldn't have *exact' same rights and obligations as cars.

[claudius]

> Hmm, I suppose you did not mean this, but I think that mandating a bike rider's license, registration, insurance and annual tax would not help that much to remove problems.

If that means I can use inner-city roads the same ways cars can use them and that I’m not forced onto shoddy bike lanes the width of a towel, I’m happy to get registered, pay insurance etc. I somewhat expect bike insurance to be less expensive than car insurance on account of you being able to do less damage with a bike; similarly, taxes should be lower as even overland bike paths are much cheaper than anything built for cars. Overall, I’m not unhappy about the idea, though.

> Overall, I don't see how bikes could have the exact same rights and obligations as cars, although overall both are vehicles and should be treated as vehicles, equally. Still, you can't ride a bike on an Autobahn, and neither can you drive a tractor. You may or may not be allowed to ride bike on a road that is dedicated to buses, although you may be allowed to ride a bike there. Etc, etc. Bikes cannot and shouldn't have *exact' same rights and obligations as cars.

Of course there was some hyperbole there – I don’t expect to be allowed to drive on a highway, but not because I am a cyclist but because I can’t meet some minimum speed (i.e. the same rules that mean tractors can’t drive there either). However, I don’t see why I can’t drive on an inner-city road among cars which are at most allowed to drive 50 km/h and instead have to stick to a tiny bike lane next to a series of parked cars.

Regarding bus lanes, I am actually not too fond of them being open to cyclists: A single bus being slowed down annoys substantially more people than even a couple cars being slowed down and passing by a stopped bus is a major annoyance and safety issue. There’s some idea that you can promote cycling by giving out these perks (elsewhere, hybrids or electric cars are allowed to use them, too), but overall that shouldn’t be necessary in a healthy climate.

[pascalo]

> The idea that German drivers are aware or tolerant of bikes is absolutely ridiculous – though of course they may be more aware and tolerant than Australian bikers, but I don’t know that (:

Trust me, they are.

[yitchelle]

I have heard that Munich drivers are crappy, joking :-)

I commute about 18Km into Cologne, and the traffic I come across have been pretty good. I even had the local bus follow me down a one lane street without much of a horn or flashing lights for about 1 km. In general, they treat me and the other bike riders like another car.

I have also commuted in other parts of Cologne, but also had good behaviour from the drivers.

[thaumasiotes]

> Pedestrians and bike riders are not compatible either

Maybe you could explain what you're thinking of when you say this? My experience says that pedestrians and bikes are fully compatible; they commonly share sidewalks.

[mcantelon]

Bikes can go much faster than pedestrians. People can get seriously hurt when bikes run into them. Bike lanes are what's needed (and exist in many places).

[danielwarna]

I'd claim that cyclists tend behave a lot more like other motorists than like pedestrians The speed difference between a cyclists and a pedestrian is usually bigger than that between a car and a cyclists, at least in urban traffic. Pedestrians can be very unpredictable and they don't tend to signal very clearly what they are about to do, not to mention that a pedestrian can stop or turn around pretty much instantly.

The optimal solution is of course to build dedicated bike lanes, but if that's not a option I'd rather ride my bike on the road with other cars, than on a shared path with pedestrians. It's also a matter of attitude, roads are built to allow cars to travel between point A and point B as fast as possible. If cycling is to be seen as a form of transportation they also need to have access to proper infrastructure.

[thaumasiotes]

So, I live in Shanghai, which hopefully qualifies as "urban" with a population of over 20 million people (according to wikipedia, almost 10k per square mile, healthily above LA). All of the following situations are routine:

1. Dedicated bike lanes.

2. Bikes hiding along the side of a street without bike lanes, hoping not to be killed.

3. Bikes using the sidewalk.

Sharing the sidewalk is far and away the safest thing for the bikers; even if you're using a dedicated bike lane you'll sometimes have to cross car traffic (say, if you're making a left turn -- I'm willing to do this as part of a giant herd of bikes, but if I'm on my own I just use crosswalks with the pedestrians). Cars are fast; bikes aren't. I could see myself potentially injuring a small child by crashing into them with my bike; I cannot imagine seriously injuring an adult the same way. I have personally been involved in a bike crash; I crashed into a motorized bicycle going the other way in a bike lane. This is much worse in terms of speed differential than a bike hitting a pedestrian, but the total of my injuries was a bleeding knuckle.

> The optimal solution is of course to build dedicated bike lanes

This is phrased with much more confidence than I believe you can reasonably have. Maybe a better solution is to assume that bikers aren't such idiots that they'll be crushing children beneath their wheels all the time if you allow them on the sidewalks. I fairly frequently get stuck behind groups of pedestrians when the sidewalk isn't wide enough for me to go around them. I've often heard one of them say to another "hey, let that guy by". I've never heard anyone say "hey, get off the sidewalk".

> If cycling is to be seen as a form of transportation they also need to have access to proper infrastructure.

Trust me, cycling is viewed as a form of transportation here. And yes, dedicated bike lanes are all over the place. But it's still routine for bikes to use the sidewalk. There are plenty of older areas with wide sidewalks and narrow streets.

[rahimnathwani]

I've lived in China (Beijing and Shanghai) for ~5 years, and frequently ride bicycles and an electric Vespa-style scooter.

Bicycles and scooters on the sidewalk, ridden by inconsiderate riders, are common, irritating and dangerous. The same is true of cars driving in cycle lanes or service lanes, and the myriad other thinga car drivers do to make life difficult for cyclists.

Sure, cycling on the pavement may be in your own self-interest, but it is strictly bad for pedestrians. Why should they have to change their walking pattern for you? I will give way to electric scooters on the sidewalk, not because I don't mind them, but because it's less unpleasant than a collision or being shouted/hooted at.

/rant

[thaumasiotes]

I've never asked anyone to change. Note how I described getting stuck and hearing chinese pedestrians admonish each other to let me by. If I get really stuck I get off and walk the bicycle.

Bicycles on the sidewalk are fairly common. They're not dangerous.

[yitchelle]

off the top of my head... * An accident between a bike and pedestrian usually results in the pedestrian getting hurt. * Footpath is generally too crowded or too small to cater for both pedestrian and bike. * Kids walking on the footpath are usually absent minded and not lookout for bikes. * etc

In general, it is similar to the reasons why bike and car are not so compatible on the road.

[jrock08]

Taking a lane while riding a bike is the safest thing to do when the road is too narrow because it prevents drivers from trying to "squeeze" by. It's also how people claim they want bikes to act, just act more like a car, unless it slightly annoys me. In which case, move over, ride on the shoulder while people blow by you without slowing down from going 15 over in a 30 mph zone.

Lane splitting/filtering at stop lights puts bikers in a safer and more visible position, in front of, instead of between vehicles. When I attempt to queue at lights, the car behind me will often inch up until I'm uncomfortable. If there is a car coming, I often wonder whether they "see" me, or whether I'm about to get caught between two cars having a fender bender, and end up leaving with two broken legs.

Sidewalks are not meant for bikes. The offset from the road, and expectation that traffic on them will move slowly leads to drivers pulling into them without actually checking for traffic. On many occasions while jogging I've almost ended up on someones hood, add a bike, and I'd have been across the hood and on the left side of the car before the driver even looked to his right for traffic.

[gamegoblin]

I cycle around Seattle quite a bit and my preference is always to ride on the sidewalk. As far as I know, this is legal as long as I yield to pedestrians.

I can ride nearly the same speed as on the road, and stop or slow down at my leisure. It's much more enjoyable. I never find pedestrians to be an issue.

It's always far faster than walking and less stressful than riding in the street.

[peterfirefly]

Maybe they find you to be an issue?

If you really do yield to pedestrians than I suppose they don't but most bicyclists are -- like smokers -- not nearly as considerate as they think they are.

[gamegoblin]

My basic strategy is to wait until at least half of the sidewalk is open before passing any pedestrians. I have no problem coasting at pedestrian speed until I have a passing opportunity. It still beats walking.

[kelnos]

You are one of the few considerate ones. I see cyclists on the sidewalk often, and most will force pedestrians out of the way to pass.

[_pmf_]

> They seem far more compatible to ride sidewalks and co-travel with pedestrians.

I agree. Bikes as road vehicles is a dangerous anachronism. Overtaking bikes is the most unpleasant exercise for me as a driver. Although, given the state of roads vs. the state of sidewalks, I understand why they choose the road.

[stephendedalus]

The other reason cyclists choose the road is because sidewalks are frequently filled with turn-ins and turn-outs. So riding on a sidewalk, even if there were no pedestrians, would be an act of putting yourself in exactly the place motorists rush to get to/from most frequently.

[cheshire137]

Yes! I have so much dislike for cyclists because they run red lights, they drive between cars, and they flit about. I can't ever predict what they're going to do because they don't seem bound by the same rules I am bound by in my car.

[hvidgaard]

One of the main problems is that the road have not been designed for cyclists at all. In Denmark there is dedicated bike lanes, and cyclists like you describe is for the most part not a problem at all.

[kelnos]

They seem far more compatible to ride sidewalks and co-travel with pedestrians.

Please, no. The biggest nuisance I experience as a pedestrian are cyclists riding on the sidewalk.

[tuxdev]

I agree they're the biggest nuisance, but.. they're just a nuisance. I'm not fearing for my life from bikes like I do from cars all the time at almost every intersection.