[yitchelle]

> They seem far more compatible to ride sidewalks and co-travel with pedestrians.

Pedestrians and bike riders are not compatible either. I am a bike commuter as well. I live in West Germany at the moment, but I have also bike commuted to work in Australia. In general, commuting in Germany is a much safer proposition than in Australia. The German drivers seem to be more aware and tolerance to the bike commuters. The bike riding paths are also very well configured and designed, minimising the risk of accidents.

[claudius]

I’m cycling to work in Munich at the moment. There’s a little piece (~800m) of one-way street with traffic lights at both ends. Due to the layout of the initial traffic lights, cyclists usually enter that street before traffic, as they have to obey their special bike-traffic-light.

On that street, cars attempt and do pass by me every day, despite there definitely not being enough room for a bike and a car to move next to each other – resulting in them passing by at distances of as little as 1m! Did I mention the speed limit of 30 km/h there and that I’m usually doing exactly that?

There’s also at least once a day some idiot who thinks he can turn right over the bike lane without checking for actual bikes on that lane and another idiot who considers the bike lane a very convenient parking spot. There are also usually two to three cases where a driver attempting to turn into the main street from the right (without right of way) stops on the bike lane and then gets upset if one attempts to drive around them.

The idea that German drivers are aware or tolerant of bikes is absolutely ridiculous – though of course they may be more aware and tolerant than Australian bikers, but I don’t know that (:

Unfortunately, policing these traffic violations seems to be perfectly uncommon here.

Of course, most of these wouldn’t be issues if we treated bikes like cars with the exact same rights and obligations as cars.

[ThrustVectoring]

IMO, if you're going fast enough and there isn't room for cars to pass, you should be riding down the center of the lane. Especially if there's hazards in the bike lane.

Don't let people do stuff that compromises your safety.

[ptaipale]

> Of course, most of these wouldn’t be issues if we treated bikes like cars with the exact same rights and obligations as cars.

Hmm, I suppose you did not mean this, but I think that mandating a bike rider's license, registration, insurance and annual tax would not help that much to remove problems.

Overall, I don't see how bikes could have the exact same rights and obligations as cars, although overall both are vehicles and should be treated as vehicles, equally. Still, you can't ride a bike on an Autobahn, and neither can you drive a tractor. You may or may not be allowed to ride bike on a road that is dedicated to buses, although you may be allowed to ride a bike there. Etc, etc. Bikes cannot and shouldn't have *exact' same rights and obligations as cars.

[claudius]

> Hmm, I suppose you did not mean this, but I think that mandating a bike rider's license, registration, insurance and annual tax would not help that much to remove problems.

If that means I can use inner-city roads the same ways cars can use them and that I’m not forced onto shoddy bike lanes the width of a towel, I’m happy to get registered, pay insurance etc. I somewhat expect bike insurance to be less expensive than car insurance on account of you being able to do less damage with a bike; similarly, taxes should be lower as even overland bike paths are much cheaper than anything built for cars. Overall, I’m not unhappy about the idea, though.

> Overall, I don't see how bikes could have the exact same rights and obligations as cars, although overall both are vehicles and should be treated as vehicles, equally. Still, you can't ride a bike on an Autobahn, and neither can you drive a tractor. You may or may not be allowed to ride bike on a road that is dedicated to buses, although you may be allowed to ride a bike there. Etc, etc. Bikes cannot and shouldn't have *exact' same rights and obligations as cars.

Of course there was some hyperbole there – I don’t expect to be allowed to drive on a highway, but not because I am a cyclist but because I can’t meet some minimum speed (i.e. the same rules that mean tractors can’t drive there either). However, I don’t see why I can’t drive on an inner-city road among cars which are at most allowed to drive 50 km/h and instead have to stick to a tiny bike lane next to a series of parked cars.

Regarding bus lanes, I am actually not too fond of them being open to cyclists: A single bus being slowed down annoys substantially more people than even a couple cars being slowed down and passing by a stopped bus is a major annoyance and safety issue. There’s some idea that you can promote cycling by giving out these perks (elsewhere, hybrids or electric cars are allowed to use them, too), but overall that shouldn’t be necessary in a healthy climate.

[pascalo]

> The idea that German drivers are aware or tolerant of bikes is absolutely ridiculous – though of course they may be more aware and tolerant than Australian bikers, but I don’t know that (:

Trust me, they are.

[yitchelle]

I have heard that Munich drivers are crappy, joking :-)

I commute about 18Km into Cologne, and the traffic I come across have been pretty good. I even had the local bus follow me down a one lane street without much of a horn or flashing lights for about 1 km. In general, they treat me and the other bike riders like another car.

I have also commuted in other parts of Cologne, but also had good behaviour from the drivers.

[thaumasiotes]

> Pedestrians and bike riders are not compatible either

Maybe you could explain what you're thinking of when you say this? My experience says that pedestrians and bikes are fully compatible; they commonly share sidewalks.

[mcantelon]

Bikes can go much faster than pedestrians. People can get seriously hurt when bikes run into them. Bike lanes are what's needed (and exist in many places).

[danielwarna]

I'd claim that cyclists tend behave a lot more like other motorists than like pedestrians The speed difference between a cyclists and a pedestrian is usually bigger than that between a car and a cyclists, at least in urban traffic. Pedestrians can be very unpredictable and they don't tend to signal very clearly what they are about to do, not to mention that a pedestrian can stop or turn around pretty much instantly.

The optimal solution is of course to build dedicated bike lanes, but if that's not a option I'd rather ride my bike on the road with other cars, than on a shared path with pedestrians. It's also a matter of attitude, roads are built to allow cars to travel between point A and point B as fast as possible. If cycling is to be seen as a form of transportation they also need to have access to proper infrastructure.

[thaumasiotes]

So, I live in Shanghai, which hopefully qualifies as "urban" with a population of over 20 million people (according to wikipedia, almost 10k per square mile, healthily above LA). All of the following situations are routine:

1. Dedicated bike lanes.

2. Bikes hiding along the side of a street without bike lanes, hoping not to be killed.

3. Bikes using the sidewalk.

Sharing the sidewalk is far and away the safest thing for the bikers; even if you're using a dedicated bike lane you'll sometimes have to cross car traffic (say, if you're making a left turn -- I'm willing to do this as part of a giant herd of bikes, but if I'm on my own I just use crosswalks with the pedestrians). Cars are fast; bikes aren't. I could see myself potentially injuring a small child by crashing into them with my bike; I cannot imagine seriously injuring an adult the same way. I have personally been involved in a bike crash; I crashed into a motorized bicycle going the other way in a bike lane. This is much worse in terms of speed differential than a bike hitting a pedestrian, but the total of my injuries was a bleeding knuckle.

> The optimal solution is of course to build dedicated bike lanes

This is phrased with much more confidence than I believe you can reasonably have. Maybe a better solution is to assume that bikers aren't such idiots that they'll be crushing children beneath their wheels all the time if you allow them on the sidewalks. I fairly frequently get stuck behind groups of pedestrians when the sidewalk isn't wide enough for me to go around them. I've often heard one of them say to another "hey, let that guy by". I've never heard anyone say "hey, get off the sidewalk".

> If cycling is to be seen as a form of transportation they also need to have access to proper infrastructure.

Trust me, cycling is viewed as a form of transportation here. And yes, dedicated bike lanes are all over the place. But it's still routine for bikes to use the sidewalk. There are plenty of older areas with wide sidewalks and narrow streets.

[rahimnathwani]

I've lived in China (Beijing and Shanghai) for ~5 years, and frequently ride bicycles and an electric Vespa-style scooter.

Bicycles and scooters on the sidewalk, ridden by inconsiderate riders, are common, irritating and dangerous. The same is true of cars driving in cycle lanes or service lanes, and the myriad other thinga car drivers do to make life difficult for cyclists.

Sure, cycling on the pavement may be in your own self-interest, but it is strictly bad for pedestrians. Why should they have to change their walking pattern for you? I will give way to electric scooters on the sidewalk, not because I don't mind them, but because it's less unpleasant than a collision or being shouted/hooted at.

/rant

[thaumasiotes]

I've never asked anyone to change. Note how I described getting stuck and hearing chinese pedestrians admonish each other to let me by. If I get really stuck I get off and walk the bicycle.

Bicycles on the sidewalk are fairly common. They're not dangerous.

[rahimnathwani]

> I've never asked anyone to change. Note how I described getting stuck and hearing chinese pedestrians admonish each other to let me by.

I've been that pedestrian. We're walking on the pavement. We become aware of someone behind us on a bicycle, who cannot get through unless we move aside. My friend suggests we stop at the side and let the bicycle pass. I reluctantly do so.

Did the cyclist ask me to change? No. Did the cyclist inconvenience me? Yes.

> Bicycles on the sidewalk are fairly common. They're not dangerous.

I was walking to work in Shanghai, ~90 minutes ago (shortly before 7am). A cyclist on the pavement nearly hit me. He was a foreigner wearing a business suit. He was cycling on a pavement which had explicit markings and bollards to separate what was a pedestrian walkway into two lanes (one for cycles). He was cycling along the (narrower) pedestrian part.

[yitchelle]

off the top of my head... * An accident between a bike and pedestrian usually results in the pedestrian getting hurt. * Footpath is generally too crowded or too small to cater for both pedestrian and bike. * Kids walking on the footpath are usually absent minded and not lookout for bikes. * etc

In general, it is similar to the reasons why bike and car are not so compatible on the road.