[jari_mustonen]

Open Source as it gets in this space, top notch developer documentation, and prices insanely low, while delivering frontier model capabilities. So basically, this is from hackers to hackers. Loving it!

Also, note that there's zero CUDA dependency. It runs entirely on Huawei chips. In other words, Chinese ecosystem has delivered a complete AI stack. Like it or not, that's a big news. But what's there not to like when monopolies break down?

[nabakin]

> Also, note that there's zero CUDA dependency. It runs entirely on Huawei chips.

That is a huge claim to make with no evidence.

I researched what you said, and I have found no statement to that effect in their paper[0], on huggingface[1], twitter[2], WeChat[3], or in their news release[4].

They only mention as a footnote in only the Chinese version of their news release that they plan to reduce inference costs with the Ascend 950 supernode when it releases[5]. The only mention of Huawei in their paper is that they validated a technique to lower interconnect bandwidth on Ascend NPUs and Nvidia GPUs[6].

[0] https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-V4-Pro/blob/main...

[1] https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-V4-Pro

[2] https://xcancel.com/deepseek_ai/status/2047516922263285776

[3] https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/8bxXqS2R8Fx5-1TLDBiEDg

[4] https://api-docs.deepseek.com/news/news260424

[5] https://api-docs.deepseek.com/zh-cn/img/v4-price.png

[6] Page 16

[glenstein]

Comments like this are why I go to the comments! I never would have thought to check.

And while I'm here I want to note that I feel there's a big misunderstanding of what is and isn't demonstrated by DeepSeek. So far as I can tell the major (and important!) innovation is reproducing near-frontier level capabilities at a fraction of the cost, but it may be the case that iterating forward at the frontier is the costly thing and is a cost borne by Western companies and that nuance seems to get lost with DeepSeek. Which is not to say that as a matter of principle that non Western companies aren't sometimes capable of jumping into the lead (Kimi has been super impressive) but if GPT/Claude/etc "only" lead at the frontier with more expensive models, that's still a moat.

[kybernetikos]

If you can get something almost as capable for a fiftieth of the price, in most cases you'll do that. You might still send a few tokens to the more expensive option for the exceptional, difficult cases, but that's maybe 10% of the tokens at most. I don't see how it'll be possible to keep spending what anthropic, openai, google etc are spending if they're only going to see the trickiest 10% of tokens.

[MiiMe19]

Missed the point award

[kybernetikos]

Maybe I need to spell out the step that connects them - how will those companies afford to keep "iterating forward at the frontier" when they probably have a huge crash in their income coming from competition with good enough, but 1/50th the price cheaper and open models.

Iterating forward at the frontier doesn't seem like a sustainable approach if everyone else can catch up with you in 6 months.

[Scipio_Afri]

Thank you for this due diligence, I was just reading through the technical report and couldn’t find any references to the software stack or hardware mentioning Huawei either and came back here wondering about this comment that I had read earlier.

[jari_mustonen]

Here's a note about running entirely on Huawei chips:

https://finance.yahoo.com/sectors/technology/articles/deepse...

[tadfisher]

> DeepSeek indicated that current service capacity for the V4 Pro series is constrained by a computing crunch, though pricing could fall after new clusters powered by Huawei's Ascend 950 chips come online in the second half of the year.

Only mention of Huawei in that article (as of now).

[selectodude]

Did you read any part of the link you posted? Huawei is mentioned once and not in the context of the model being trained or currently running on Huawei chips.

[vedaba]

Dammit, you found my technique of “citing” sources for papers in high school...

[selectodude]

At least when I pulled random citations off Wikipedia I could reasonably trust whoever put it there figured it was tangentially related to what was being cited. I’m not sure I could get away with putting a literal press release that I didn’t read anywhere.

Big L for media literacy there.

[chvid]

Not long ago the story was this:

DeepSeek’s next AI model delayed by attempt to use Chinese chips

https://www.ft.com/content/eb984646-6320-4bfe-a78d-a1da2274b...

[kappi]

DeepSeek is planning to use Huawei extensively for inference

“Due to constraints in high-end compute capacity, the current service capacity for Pro is very limited. After the 950 supernodes are launched at scale in the second half of this year, the price of Pro is expected to be reduced significantly.”

https://x.com/jukan05/status/2047516566149816627

[nabakin]

Yes, that's the footnote from citation [5].

[eckr]

I don't think this is private knowledge guessing from when and how I was told, so I feel comfortable sharing it. When I talked to some Huawei representatives, I was told DeepSeek V4 was trained entirely on Huawei chips. It's up to you whether you believe it or not, and while I see the incentives in faking these news, the blow if not true would be so massive that I don't think their representatives at large venues would be making these claims without thinking it's truly correct.

[nabakin]

I think they were mistaken or maybe they were just referring to inference because I don't see anyone making that claim and it would be quite the news.

[czk]

They mention it uses MXFP4 quant which is a blackwell capability but it looks like this is also supported by ascend 950 series according to marketing material

[nsoonhui]

I said the same thing as you and I got summarily downvoted (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47888227).

That HN is quick to upvote an unsubstantiated comment ( the grandparent one, because it aligns with the anti US bias? ) and downvote fact finding one doesn't bode too well for the community as a whole. I have seen enough how polticial ideology colors everything in my home country( Malaysia), and the decline of the country is palpable, and I don't expect to find such a thing here. We are supposed to be impassioned and rational, right ?

Render to Jesus what's due to him, ditto for Caeser.

[nabakin]

Probably because you said you used DeepSeek. People don't want to see AI in the comments and don't trust AI responses.

[dzonga]

Jensen Huang said this in his recent interview - that China has the best/most engineers, it has the chip making ability, it's a good thing they wanna build on a Nvidia stack - but if you push them they will build on an all Chinese stack - but the interviewer was being a numb head who kept parroting the propaganda of Western tech supremacy

[zdragnar]

They would have moved to their own stack regardless. They've got the people and resources for it, and they've witnessed the fallout of globalization and experienced dependency on semi-hostile political powers enough to know that it's the smart move.

It's also more or less the same move that they've been using pretty much since the WTO entry: take on foreign manufacturing, copy the products, sell knockoffs as their own, build new products on top of the that knowledge.

[arcticfox]

Referring to the Dwarkesh interview clearly.

Jensen came across as incredibly defensive and intentionally close-minded, shows that even billionaires suffer from "a man can't understand something if his paycheck depends on him not understanding it."

Your assertion is silly: did Tesla selling electric cars into China stop them from delivering their own industry? They were going to develop their domestic industry regardless.

We simply don't know the counterfactual, if they had unlimited access to Nvidia chips, how far ahead would their models be?

[awongh]

I thought Jensen’s comparison to Huawei’s cell phone hardware infra (towers and networking) to be an interesting comparison- that shutting them out of a market was one of the causes of their current position in the market. It made them more dominant in the end.

[nwienert]

No counterfactual there either though.

[ionelaipatioaei]

"close-minded" are the stupid people that unironically believe in the EA crap

[solenoid0937]

> but if you push them they will build on an all Chinese stack

That's alright. It delays them at least.

[throwaw12]

Sure, then hopefully makes them stronger

[ifwinterco]

As a Brit I'm here for it to be honest, I'm tired of America with everything that's going on.

China is not perfect but a bit of competition is healthy and needed

[chrsw]

I'm American. If the choice is between the current US direction or China, then no, I don't think the word "healthy" should be anywhere near this discussion.

[eejjs]

I’m also a Brit and agree 100%.

We need to accept that being too close to America is harming us and start funding projects to protect our assets e.g talent leaking out to American entities.

[falkenstein]

america is a continent. let’s take back our vocabulary (fellow european here). the little orange man shows very well what i mean when he started giving names to the gulf of mexico.

[0xDEAFBEAD]

"In English, North America is its own continent as is South America. The two can be collectively labeled the Americas or the Western hemisphere. Canadians frequently refer to themselves as North Americans and never as Americans. To insist this change is to demand the entire world’s lingua franca redefine words and thereby cause mass confusion for its speakers simply because doing so would be consistent with an arbitrary definition found in a foreign language."

https://scrupulouspessimism.substack.com/p/america-means-the...

[8note]

south americans is how north americans refer to south americans though.

south americans just call themselves americans.

there arent all that many canadians; whats the need to index so hard on what we think?

[floam]

I doubt many Spanish or Portuguese speakers refer to themselves in English.

Regardless, sure South Americans can absolutely call themselves Americano in the continental sense. But I know in Brazil for example "Americano" is casually understood to mean from the US, and in general South Americans are more likely to identify as argentino, brasileiro, chileno, colombiano, etc., or as sul-americano/sudamericano.

Most importantly, when speaking English, virtually all will avoid American for themselves because they know in English it means estadounidense.

[cg5280]

It's also a country. Not sure what insisting we change our demonym accomplishes.

[rib3ye]

It’s a shame your country couldn’t get back its technical edge.

[hart_russell]

Americans are also tired with what’s going on.

[jazz9k]

Sure, but to claim that China is the better alternative is absurd.

[hsiudh]

"not perfect" is a _very_ big simplification of what China is though

[rglullis]

Isn't that the same to every major superpower?

[scrollop]

Whatbaoutism at it's finest.

Have a peek at the fredom indx and the press freedom index for China. Guess where they stand?

You know about the chinese internet firewall.

You can't trust any data from the CCP.

And please don't equate the aberration that is the Trump administration with "regular" US administrations (and this is coming from a non US person).

[rglullis]

People in China live under totalitarian rule, that much is true.

But how free is the average North American, where getting sick can bring you and your family financial ruin? Where the "free press" is controlled by corporations who are also the main source of campaign funding for politicians? Where their urban spaces are designed to require you to have a car and promote complete atomized individuals?

[hajile]

All these things are from the private sector and may be left behind if you like (do younger generations even listen to corporate news?)

The real issues are government surveillance and it increasingly getting involved in my personal matters, but it’s still more free than any other country I could go to. Look at countries in Europe like the UK without true freedom of press arresting people for mean tweets and giving them years in prison.

[amunozo]

Regular US administrations that commited war crimes in half the world for decades. But apparently it only matters what they do in the US.

[Revanche1367]

Indexes made by Europeans and Americans to congratulate themselves are not reliable.

[culi]

Exactly. Even if you don't buy into western biases, it's heavily reliant on subjective perception surveys. Hardly proof of anything

[rhubarbtree]

You’re right, for now, but I think trump will try to turn America into a dictatorship.

[_blk]

..you forgot to mention that any technology in China, foreign or domestic, can and will be used for and to the benefit of the -military- party.. But like someone posted: "not perfect" fits the bill.

Check out the Sean Ryan Show with Palmer Luckey on China and military tech.

[wookmaster]

Ok? The same can be said about the US

[Thlom]

Same goes for every country on earth?

[FuckButtons]

No. There is no moral equivalence with totalitarianism.

[ywvcbk]

Modern China isn't exactly totalitarian though and US is rapidly converging with China in that regard anyway.

[bwv848]

How totalitarian is exactly totalitarian? I asked chatgpt and it gave few points

- Control goes beyond politics

- A single, all-encompassing ideology

- No meaningful private sphere

- Mass mobilization and propaganda

- Extensive surveillance and repression

Seems like China is ticking all the boxes.

[odiroot]

Just as long as you don't openly mention the "three Ts".

[Hamuko]

Which are the current nontotalitarian superpowers?

[vrganj]

EU

[DiogenesKynikos]

China is not totalitarian. Many people believe that China is still like 1950s-60s-era Maoist China, but it's just not.

[FuckButtons]

tiananmen square was in 1989. Hong Kong was snuffed out like a light. Covid saw people caged and sealed in their houses. You do not need to look back at the cultural revolution to see the prc for what it is.

[NicoJuicy]

That's also the current US administration.

Luckily laws still stand somewhat.

( And Trump ain't smart enough)

[fragmede]

Trump's smarter than he lets on. He plays the buffoon in public, but he's smart enough to have gotten elected twice. Which is two times more than I've managed to.

[IsTom]

You can say the same about the US

[hunter67]

they compare it to fascist USA though

[allan_s]

Ask a gay, a black or a Japanese how it feels living in China.

[cromka]

Outside of gay people, the rest is your projection: they are homogenous society, racial problems are nonexistent. US is heavily heterogenous and despite that you segregated like a third of society at the time.

Ridiculous take.

[allan_s]

Sorry, I have lived and worked there 6 years in different cities and I do speak a fluent (though with a very heavy French accent) mandarin. It's totally not my projection but my experience first hand.

During the "diaoyu island" incident in the 2010s the sushi shop 200m near my appartment got sacked, and all japanese-brand car get smashed.

My black (and indian) friends all complained how hard they were treated. And when talking with my Chinese friends they all had very .... interesting... point of view.

Edit: also, I'm not from the US

[Levitz]

>Outside of gay people, the rest is your projection: they are homogenous society, racial problems are nonexistent.

You do know that Chinese people do go to other countries and that we all can see how insanely racist they can be right?

[nailer]

> they are homogenous society

No, China is not homogenous.

> racial problems are nonexistent

Ask a non-Han about how they feel about that statement.

[wookmaster]

Your take is about as ridiculous. China isn’t at all how you described it.

[KennyBlanken]

> they are homogenous society, racial problems are nonexistent

Riiiiiiiiiiiight:

https://ipvm.com/reports/hikvision-uyghur

Guess they solved all the "racial problems" by deploying surveillance cameras to help shove all the undesirables into camps. /s

[8note]

so alabama and texas are enemies to the US the same way china is?

[lifeisstillgood]

As a different Brit I do not accept such moral relativism.

China’s governments actions are on a completely different level - for example:

“””

Since 2014, the government of the People's Republic of China has committed a series of ongoing human rights abuses against Uyghurs and other Turkic Muslim minorities in Xinjiang which has often been characterized as persecution or as genocide.

“”” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_Chin...

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/asia-and-the-pacific/eas...

Yes Trump is clearly trying Totalitarianism in America, but it is orders of magnitude different from what is happening in China.

[amunozo]

Why do we ignore all the human right abuses the US perform abroad? Iraq, Afghanistan, now Iran, Gaza and Lebanon through Israel, support to Saudi Arabia (which would not exist without the US), El Salvador... And inside it's also horrible with its treatment to immigrant.

That should be at least comparable (if not worse) than what China is doing.

[OCASMv2]

Yes, El Salvador is so evil for imprisoning dangerous criminals and protecting innocent lives.

[EmiMusso]

El Salvador is blessed by evil criminals put away from the streets. It took thousands of those who you defend for a whole country to be free to enjoy tranquility and security. I was born there and I know better than you calling us evil

[amunozo]

I am not telling that imprisoning the criminals is a bad things, but the conditions in which this has been done and how they're treated in prison is against human rights by any measure.

[culopatin]

The person you responded is agreeing with you.

[dooglius]

Parent was being sarcastic

[samrus]

This is how china tried to justify its genocide against uighers. Was theboutrage against that just politically motivated? Or do americans only care about ethnic cleansing when theyre not the ones doing it

[amunozo]

They also don't care when done by their allies.

[amunozo]

Not for imprisoning, but for imprisoning them in draconian conditions, without proper judgements, etc. Have you seen those prisons for fuck sake?

[tw1984]

It is just shocking to hear such stuff from someone in the UK.

[phatfish]

The US supports the genocide in Gaza, it supports the bombing of Lebanon. The US itself has now started (another) war and bombed Iran.

China is repressing the Uyghur and threatening Taiwan. I don't agree with these actions but is really "orders of magnitude" worse than the destruction the US facilitates in the Middle East?

With Trump they are now openly hostile to European democracies, and ICE and doing their best at repression within the US.

[chronc6393]

> The US supports the genocide in Gaza, it supports the bombing of Lebanon. The US itself has now started (another) war and bombed Iran.

> With Trump they are now openly hostile to European democracies, and ICE and doing their best at repression within the US.

And what is Europe going to do about it?

Boycott ChatGPT and Claude? Ha.

[ifwinterco]

That isn't really the point though, of course the UK can't stop these things by itself.

The point is US "soft power" is eroding incredibly rapidly and this will have consequences

[8note]

europe+canada put out the threat, and succeeded just by threatening.

if you missed it thats on you

[abacadaba]

Yes, because the U.S. action in the ME is a fully justified gift to the world and Israel has every right to act in self defense.

The European democracies are basically failed states at this point and I just hope we don't end up like them.

[cedws]

There’s little to no evidence of such “genocide”, but I can go on YouTube to watch videos of the US bombing civilians in the Middle East.

[wallst07]

China is much better at hiding anything negative.

It's a little insane to me people comparing negatives of US and China. I mean, the simple fact we're allowed to say just about anything we want that is critical of the administration on this forum, in English and nothing happens is clear there is no comparison.

You have no idea the full breadth of the Chinese government because information is closed so quickly, in America it's all on display right in front.

[timmmk]

Fellow countryman here. I came here to say the same thing

[jurgenburgen]

I don’t know if we’re ahead of the curve but that tired feeling has started turning into hate here in the EU. I guess being threatened with invasion does that to you.

The next decade is going to look very different with America Alone.

[koe123]

I grew up in the states when I was younger, always feeling some closeness to Americans even after I moved back to Europe.

With all that goes on it has changed. Recently I sat on a plane near some Americans discussing their holidays here, and I noticed I felt contempt. Sitting their with insane privilege as their government torches the world.

Individuals remain individuals, and one really ought not to be prejudice. However the lack of resistance I see in in the “land of the free” as their “democratic” institutions collapse just makes me believe they never cared at all. In France cars are torched if the pension age is raised. In America the rise facism apparently doesnt matter to them.

[0xDEAFBEAD]

>However the lack of resistance I see in in the “land of the free” as their “democratic” institutions collapse just makes me believe they never cared at all.

Largest protests in US history just in the past year:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_protests_and_demonstra...

>insane privilege

My sister and brother recently graduated from college, have been searching for jobs for over 6 months, they can't find anything. They're politically liberal Californians.

[cplusplus6382]

Largest parade not protest.

There was not a single actionable demand from that parade.

[seanclayton]

Where are you? Are you doing anything at all? Is commenting on Hacker News and taking a paycheck and maybe donating to some politicians all you're willing to do?

[0xDEAFBEAD]

I think you're being disingenuous with this sort of definition gerrymandering. "No Kings" is obviously a demand to stop the authoritarian behavior.

[Jcampuzano2]

Every single no kings protest led to zero results and were a mockery of what protest is even supposed to accomplish. These single day protests where everybody just goes home the same night are doing nothing.

Us as Americans have forgotten what a protest and resistance against the political elite even is. Its not a fucking dance party for already well off people to pretend they're actually doing something meaningful which is what usually gets the most publicity from these.

People needed to start breaking things yesterday.

[michaelmrose]

This provides a pretext to murder people and lock shit down. Violent behavior maked the general public prone to accept and even welcome authoritarian behaviour and policies.

We need to fight it on the streets non violently with actions that disrupt not destroy and resist in the courts and ultimately in the ballot box where we can win.

[swasheck]

zero _immediate_ results. hate is a powerful motivator and hard to overcome, and the political machinations also don’t really allow for immediate feedback. we will see what happens this midterm cycle. polls show repudiation of the current administration across all dimensions.

[scottyah]

It's just that mobility is still too easy. Anyone with slightly above-average intelligence and a bit of drive can join the oppressors, their arms are wide open. Fraud/corruption is rampant and accepted, all you have to do is open a daycare or homeless shelter and "bend the knee" by claiming some sort of disabled/minority/veteran/woman status. CA has raised over $80 billion for "homeless" and the money is getting spent but very little on the homeless.

[CuriouslyC]

Breaking shit is the path of most resistance. Do not do this unless you're young and poor.

The way to win is economic resistance. Stop spending and stop paying taxes. Crash the fucking economy so deep into the ground that the country self-immolates.

[mettamage]

From my small bubble it's not that. I'm Dutch, married to an American who now knows enough Dutch such that we can treat it as a secret language when we're in the US.

My family in law seems to swing slightly republican. As a Dutchie, I could get some answers because I'm too naive not to talk about politics. So I got to probe a bit. What I simply found was that they'd say "I can't trust the news, none of it. Not CNN, not Fox News, nothing". Then I'd say "well in the Netherlands, I'd argue that while news outlets have their bias, you can trust them on basic factual reporting". She looked at me with a stare that I could only describe as "oh but honey, you're too young and naive to understand". To which I thought "you don't know the Netherlands. We're not perfect but we're nowhere near as deranged as what I'm seeing here".

I think that explains a lot of it for some people. The trust in the media, all media, is completely broken. Trump has how many fellonies now? Can't trust it. Kamala is doing what now? All talk. DOGE is fixing the government? I fucking hope so! But can't trust the damn news. Whether they do or don't, they are always burning money, god damn bureaucrats.

I feel that's the mindset that my family in law has.

[zmmmmm]

> I can't trust the news, none of it. Not CNN, not Fox News, nothing

This view gets echoed here on HN a lot. I find it very strange to be honest, because I tune in to CNN and I see lots of bias in the commentary and editorial, but when it comes to factual reporting they are pretty straightforward and down to earth. It seems to me that the real issue is people don't seem to distinguish between reporting and editorial content / commentary. Stop watching that garbage and actually consume the factual content and analysis. Yeah it's dry and boring but if that isn't enough for you then it just shows you never cared about facts in the first place.

[SkyBelow]

One issue with factual reporting is what facts are getting reported, given that public attention is a very limited resource. People consistently extrapolate from data without knowing if that data is good or bad. So if I show you news with 100 stories of people doing awful things on channel A and 100 stories of people doing awesome things on channel B, both will be factual, but one will have you living more in fear of everyone while the other will inspire you. These are still biases.

One of the least (to the extent possible given the topic) political examples is stranger danger. Kids are safer than ever before, but due to the way stories are reported when bad things do happen to kids, parents are less trust of strangers than ever before (and this is despite the evidence it isn't the strangers who are the risk to kids). The sum total experience that media provides now leads to parents being far more fearful and restrictive of their children than past generations, all without needing to tell any lies.

If all the police reports and research into stranger danger being a false narrative can't combat it, how will ideas with far less evidence to the contrary be countered? Should parents trust the news when it comes to the topic of stranger danger?

[mettamage]

> but when it comes to factual reporting they are pretty straightforward and down to earth.

No, not really. I mean for me, yea, sure, easy. But in the general case? It depends on who you are.

The reason I trust CNN is because when a Dutch news source reports more or less the same thing, I can easily see the reporting matches with that of CNN. Because of this, I personally have some built up trust with CNN. When I look at Fox News, oh deary... it's nothing like what I see on the Dutch news.

This is not something I do consciously, it's simply that I happen to watch Dutch news sometimes and I happen to see American news sometimes and it costs no effort for me to compare. Combine that then with that on HN I also sometimes see BBC and similar British venues (e.g. The Economist is also British I believe?), and now I suddenly have 3 countries worth of news sources.

Many Americans don't really know that the UK exists other than that they rebelled against it. Many Americans almost haven't left their 20 mile radius world (many also did of course). But it's these people that I tend to have a lot of in my in-law family or however you call it (schoonfamilie in Dutch). I'm quite exotic to them in that sense, and definitely foreign. Thank god they have some Dutch roots.

Point being: with that mindset, you're not checking out what the BBC has to say on a topic. You're checking American news, not because of patriotism but simply because of that's all you know and going outside of what you know costs effort. And you already have a job to do, come home late, just want to watch your shows in the evening and that's it.

I am by no means saying that this is representative for all Americans, it isn't. What I am saying is: I see this a lot in my slice of the US. The reason I'm sharing it is because what my in-law family is saying is definitely at a much more personal level than whatever conversation I've had with some random, but lovely, person from a hacker space or hacker house in San Francisco.

Yet, I don't see this view a lot on the news. Nor do I hear Dutchies talking about it, they are simply out of the loop when it comes to a view like this. I don't know how prevalent it is, but if many people of a family of 50 to 100 people is in a situation like this, then my bet is that they aren't the only family.

[InsideOutSanta]

Getting people to have an undifferentiated distrust of news organizations in general is an important aspect of technofeudalism.

[WarmWash]

The core problem with the news is that they know how to lie by telling the truth.

You can string together true statements that lead to a false viewpoint very easily. _This_ is the bread and butter of this awful media empire we have nowadays.

Vaccines contain cancer causing agents. Vaccines have crippled people for life. Vaccines have lead to children dying. Do you still want to get a vaccine?

All of those are true statements. But the whole thing is a lie.

[JumpCrisscross]

Out of curisoity, what is your wife's take?

My running hypothesis has been the trust breakdown arises from social-media overexposure driving lazy nihilism, which in turn gave free reign to a uniquely-corrupt class of politicians. But I'm not sure how to neutrally evaluate that.

[mettamage]

Will ask, can't promise an answer, but will post it as a child comment here (or edit this one if it is within one hour).

[virgildotcodes]

I think the collapse of public trust was very intentional, and the result of a much longer term effort than social media.

The most famous examples are likely the tobacco industry spreading misinformation through self-funded studies and experts, and the fossil fuel industry doing the same to seed doubt about climate change. But of course we can think of countless examples of entire industries and individual large corporations pushing out misleading bullshit, threatening or outright killing journalists and activists to cover up their catastrophic fuckups and their chronic conscious excretion of negative externalities.

This has all of course been going on since the dawn of time, but to focus on the last century in the US, we've seen all sorts of corporations and coalitions of rich and powerful people push misinformation into nearly every sector of our society - universities, science, journalism, politics, etc. in order to undermine confidence in shared facts, corrupt people's ability to discern whether or not something is fundamentally true, and sow confusion so that they can continue to operate in perpetuity in this chaotic maelstrom of doubt.

Lots of capture of government towards these ends as well, we can look at the concomitant constant cuts to education in order to weaken people's understanding of the world and ability to think critically. The revocation of the Fairness Doctrine was probably a step change, and Trump represents the sharpest recent escalation of all this.

From day one, he's done everything he can to shred any collective notion of shared objective truth. Anything he doesn't like is fake news, and the idea that the media is lying, scientists are lying, experts are lying, and institutions are lying, he has spread so fucking successfully through society, to the point where Americans no longer have anything like a shared sense of reality.

It seems like we're being reduced to tribes who are organized primarily around faith in various charismatic individuals.

I think this is fundamentally the worst thing he's done, because it lays the foundation for virtually every other conceivable and inconceivable abuse. If people can't even agree on what is happening, we're fucked. People and institutions in power can do anything they want to whoever they want, because the public has lost their ability to even recognize the danger posed to them collectively and thus mount any resistance based on a shared sense of reality.

Social media has definitely famously accelerated aspects of this like the fragmentation and the spread/magnification of fringe worldviews through echo chambers, but I think it's just one (and maybe this is controversial, but I'd be willing to be generous enough to think the 20something year old creators were too stupid to conceive of these long term consequences at first, but who knows, maybe not) element in a much longer and more intentional, malicious war against the many for the benefit of the few.

[fastasucan]

I think this is spot on. "Every fault of america is just how it is in any society.". Nice way to just accept it.

[roer]

This is quite interesting. I'm not sure what can to be done to reverse this? When you've reached a level of untrust where you deem trust itself naive, how can you recover?

[mettamage]

Teach Americans to look at news sources in other countries?

Shooting from the hip here. Feels like a duct tape hack on first thought.

I mean that's what I do, subconsciously. I think a lot of Europeans do this because a lot of Europeans tend to speak English and then their actual native language, or something similar (e.g. I wonder how Swiss people experience this).

[vslira]

> In France cars are torched if the pension age is raised.

Democracy is… an organized group toppling decisions made by popularly elected representatives within the confines of the law?

[jorvi]

> In France cars are torched if the pension age is raised.

This is not something to be proud of. You guys are giving yourself loaned freebies, retiring 5+ (!) years earlier than countries like BeNeLux and Germany, and are pretty much expecting the EU to eventually pick up the pieces which will drag us all down.

Edit: always lovely when HN downvotes truths :)

[the_gipsy]

That's bullshit. Pensions are not a zero-sum game, and other countries don't have to pay for them.

It just doesn't make sense to delay retirement while youth unemployment is such a big problem. We ALL should be fighting like France, in many aspects.

[jorvi]

Other countries don't directly pay for the pensions, but France is staring into a giant fiscal abyss because of their low retirement age (and other generous social benefits). Any attempt to change those results in the country being taken hostage by rioters, thus nothing changes.

At some point France will be in too deep shit and will look to the EU to cover for them. We will all pay for that. And it is deeply unfair because other countries their citizens have accepted later retirement and more frugal benefits to keep their countries fiscally healthy.

France could cover the fiscal hole in other ways, but taxing corporations and wealth at a higher rate also consistently ends up being blocked. And each year the hole gets deeper.

[FrojoS]

It’s not bs. France is lobbying for “Eurobonds”, debt they can take at German interest rates and with Germans etc holding the bag, for about two decades now.

https://youtu.be/tMd7EfFsPIc (Video claims France is against them, but if they ever were they are not anymore)

[TomGarden]

I a European who spent the last decade in America and I'm not sure I'd call Americans privileged compared to Europe. With money being the one means you have to be treated well in society, comparing it to Europe, America feels like the hunger games. Want healthcare (ie surviving)? Healthy food? To own your house? Welcome to the games

[wiseowise]

Europe doesn’t wage war right now. Their point is that Americans are talking about vacation while their troops invade and destroy Iran.

[bbkane]

As a middle-class American, I don't feel like I have much input into the Iran war. I've voted, I've signed a few petitions, and I'm open to more suggestions for how I can stop the war, but I don't really think I can do much else- protest somewhere I suppose and hope that's helpful somehow

As a European, how do you influence your government?

[wallst07]

OP needs to read up on war history and the US. Spoiler, it's been this way since WWII.

[scottyah]

Ukraine?

[sterlind]

not all of us are just "sitting here with insane privilege." it's quite dangerous for some of us right now.

I'm trans. this Administration does not like us. after Charlie Kirk's murder, things got legitimately scary. Musk was retweeting people who called us "deranged bioweapons" who needed to be "forcibly institutionalized." NSPM-7 is surveilling and infiltrating trans organizations. the Heritage Foundation proposed labeling us as "ideological extremists," in the same category as neo-Nazis. if I'm arrested, I'll go to a men's prison where I'll likely be given to a violent inmate as his cellmate to "pacify" him (V-coding.)

so yeah, I keep my head down. a lot of Jews kept their heads down in Germany in the '30s, you know? and just like then, it doesn't seem like other countries are too keen on taking us in as refugees. I hope that changes if things get bleak.

[koe123]

You make a good point, I’m sorry to generalize.

[abacadaba]

I wish you well but your made up trans genocide is not comparable to jews in the '30's and unless you and your family are being rounded up and executed please stfu about it. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[eszed]

Not like the 1930s, no. But there are similarities in the discourse to how jewish people were demonized in the decades (well, centuries, in that case) previous. Your comment seems to suggest that no one should speak up for themselves until they face literal genocide. Care to walk that back?

[sterlind]

you're right, I shouldn't compare the "eradication" rhetoric back then to the "eradication" rhetoric now. I shouldn't compare the concentration camp rhetoric then to the institutionalization rhetoric now. I shouldn't compare the systemic rape then to the prison rape now. I shouldn't compare the ambient risk of being arrested on the street then to the risk of being arrested in day to day life in unsafe States now. I shouldn't compare the ugly, antisemitic propaganda posters then to the ugly, transphobic propaganda posters now.

and I certainly shouldn't compare the moral panic then to the moral panic now.

I offer two hypotheses on why my original comment has been so heavily downvoted:

1. people think it's not that bad, or not going to get that bad, and/or

2. people think my people deserve it, while yours didn't.

[JonChesterfield]

Get out seems an important priority. Good luck

[hirako2000]

You felt contempt, can you imagine if you were Iraqi, Afghan, Syrian, Russian, Sudanese, Lebanese, Iranian, should I mention it: Palestinian.

[hersko]

They apparently all love america. They try to come here as soon as they get a chance....

[hirako2000]

Peasants also would accept to part of the king's court. Why not be the king even.

Doesn't change OP's point on contempt.

[ejpir]

yup. I was taught in school in Europe to admire Americans and their might. Only in the last few years I've come to understand they are maybe one of the worst western countries there is. Countless wars, even under Obama, so it's not a president x or y thing. It's culcture. I would go as far as to say I'd rather visit Russia than America at this point. America is great at hiding their true colors and we've been properly brainwashed in the West by this.

[rwyinuse]

Russia is still whole other level of evil compared to America.

If nothing else, Americans at least put some value on the lives of their own troops - when the F15 got shot down in Iran, the launched a massive rescue operation. Back in the 70's public pressure over casualties pretty much ended Vietnam war. Meanwhile Russia in Ukraine is sending just meatwaves of young Russian men, one after another to die for nothing, far surpassing death toll of USA in Vietnam, and their government & most citizen seem to be okay with that. That is what I find most terrifying about Russia. The utter lack of compassion and care towards their fellow Russians that just happen to be poorer, or live in the provinces rather than rich cities. Don't get me even started on how they treat their troops, the culture of corruption and abuse in the armed forces...

Both countries are ruled by psychopaths, but Russia is way, way more rotten as a society.

[stronglikedan]

> I'm tired of America with everything that's going on.

Yeah, me too. All that pesky saving the world stuff that we do on the regular is so exhausting sometimes.

[fn-mote]

“Saving the world” recently has meant being involved in wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Iran.

None of those have brought me a feeling of being part of saving someone.

[Petersipoi]

Preventing the number one sponsor of terrorism from getting a nuke absolutely saves people. Even if you don't like the externalities of it. Or is the HN crowd still believing the "we just want nuclear energy (with highly enriched uranium)" story? I genuinely don't know. Humans have a near infinite ability to stare at the sun and insist it's dark, so long as it supports their world view.

[peterashford]

Even US Intelligence didn't believe they were close to getting a nuke. And given that they were in negotiations about controlling their nuclear program before the US attacked, it's hard to credit US foreign policy on this front

[geon]

Who has been saved? The US has been doing much more harm than good.

[TrackerFF]

Let's see how long it takes before the big US AI companies start lobbying to outright ban use of Chinese AI, even the open source / local models. For "national security" reasons, of course.

[chronc6393]

> Let's see how long it takes before the big US AI companies start lobbying to outright ban use of Chinese AI, even the open source / local models. For "national security" reasons, of course.

Already do on EVs.

[05]

..and drones https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-updates-covered-list-add-ce...

[wookmaster]

This is already happening. My company just went through this

[Scroll_Swe]

? Every company should lock down AI and only whitelist allowed tools.

We are "only" allowed Claude and MS Copilot for security reasons and cost reasons.

[barnabee]

Hopefully the US’ self imposed isolation will mean that when they do, they aren’t able to force the rest of the world to follow suit.

[zrn900]

They already did - State Dept. launched global campaign against Deepseek.

[jug]

Prices are also expected to drop significantly in H2 as they move to Huawei Ascend 950 super nodes.

Yes, even compared to this low price point.

As before, the headline news with DeepSeek isn't in the benchmarks, but that they're competitive there while being gut churningly cheap for the Western AI industry.

[resters]

Just looked into buying some Chinese GPUs and it turns out it's not easy or even legal! Big WTF moment.

[OsrsNeedsf2P]

Same thing for Chinese EVs. America can't compete in the free market anymore

[AlanYx]

In the US, yes, but Huawei has been gaining ground selling its SuperPod/Ascend turnkey solutions internationally, with some major recent wins in Thailand, Brazil, Egypt and Morocco.

[khalic]

Open weight and open source are not the same

[SquareWheel]

This is a pretty banal comment at this point. Open source is the term used in the LLM community. It's common and understood. Nobody is going to release petabytes of copyrighted training data, so the distinction between open source vs weights is a rather pointless one.

[stefan_]

First you steal all the code, then you want to redefine the term? Is it never enough with you AI guys? Where's the humility, where's the good?

[SquareWheel]

Sorry, too busy "stealing code" to answer right now.

[finarch]

lol

[8note]

its still a pointed one.

"open source" keeps being redefined by people with wealth and power to restrict our computing rights.

eventually its just gonna be "proprietary microsoft code that runs on microsoft servers, but you can see a portion of the results"

[SquareWheel]

"Open source" as a term has evolved due to its success. It wasn't some malicious attempt at redefining things from the technical elite. It was a natural shifting of language, as happens with all words, as it entered more common usage.

It's entirely reasonable that this colloquial understanding would be applied to new categories such as AI models. I'm sure it'll be applied to many other things that don't fit the OSD either. That's just language for you.

[khalic]

Tell this to the Allen project, Apertus Project, SmoLLM, etc, etc, etc

[nailer]

It's also not fake open source like Metas models - https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-R1-0528, the weights are actually under a real open source license, (MIT), see https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-R1-0528

[shiftingleft]

Is it really the full pipeline running on Huawei hardware? That is training and inference?

The report only talks about validating the "fine-grained EP scheme" on Huawei hardware.

[digitaltrees]

I am all for monopoly breakdown. But there is an argument that this is anticompetitive strategy designed to undercut the commercial viability of the other labs. In free trade negotiations this is called “dumping”: selling a product below cost at a high volume to gain market share by driving competition out of the market and then raising prices when you’ve outlasted them.

[otagekki]

Unfortunately Uber and the likes have been doing this but nobody batted an eye

[digitaltrees]

I am a critic.

[ibic]

"Open Source" is the ultimate romance understood by software engineers.

[laurentiurad]

not a full AI stack. Training still runs on NVIDIA chips.

[sudo_cowsay]

I sometimes wonder if there are any security risks with using Chinese LLMs. Is there?

[dalemhurley]

Theoretically yes. It is entirely possible to poison the training data for a supply chain attack against vibe coders. The trick would be to make it extremely specific for a high value target so it is not picked up by a wide range of people. You could also target a specific open source project that is used by another widely used product.

However there is so many factors involved beyond your control that it would not be a viable option compared to other possible security attacks.

[2ndorderthought]

I believe this is possible but unlikely. I don't think a Chinese company trying to break down the US's stronghold in this field would do this short term. I think it is in their best interest to be cheaper, better, easier, and more trust worthy until competition looks silly.

It's like suggesting BYD has a high likelihood of making their cars into weapons or something. It's not in the company or their countries interest to do that.

Sure it could happen but I bet it would only happen in a targeted way. Why risk all credibility right now and engage in cyber warfare?

[SecretDreams]

Need the "why not both?" meme here.

BYD and Tesla have the same ability to brick their cars anywhere. It's less a "weapon" and more a way to cripple a subset of people overnight if they so choose. A general major downside of "connected" products.

[2ndorderthought]

Okay what gain does China or BYD or similarly, Tesla and the US get by crippling their customers products? It doesn't make sense except at the point of a ww3 scenario where China is an adversary. I don't follow the news too closely, but I see no inklings of that at least.

[SecretDreams]

Yeah, it would specifically be in instances where global conflict is afoot. Aka what people are thinking about when they think about national security risks.

[_blk]

Would be interesting to hook up a much simpler LLM as fact checker to see when errors are introduced.

If I had to place a hidden target it'd probably be around RNGs or publicly exposed services..

[mazurnification]

But propaganda or non ethical marketing - why not? (That is bias toward pointing to certain provider(s)).

[wallst07]

or more obvious like TikTok.

Meaning Tiktok in the us is complete garbage for kids, almost like a virus. Whereas in China it's more educational.

[big-and-small]

This is quite obviously because China have strict regulations and censorship of social media and US doesnt. YouTube Shorts and Instagram is full of the same garbage in US.

[rapind]

All China (or anyone) has to do is deliver a close to equal product at a much cheaper price and make it scaleable / usable... which is what they're doing. It doesn't have to be malicious at all. Just a good product at a good price. The US is basically in a recession that's hiding behind insane AI investments.

[oliwarner]

If there is, couldn't they exist in any model?

I don't mean that flippantly. These things are dumped in the wild, used on common (largely) open source execution chains. If you find a software exploit, it's going to affect your population too.

Wet exploits are a bit harder to track. I'd assume there are plenty of biases based on training material but who knows if these models have a MKUltra training programme integrated into them?

[Hamuko]

There must be. The executives at my company wouldn't have banned them all for no reason after all.

[surgical_fire]

I sometimes wonder is there are any security risks with using LLMs from the US.

[cassianoleal]

What about LLMs from other origins? What makes them less risky?

[rhubarbtree]

Backdooring software at scale.

Spearphishing.

Building reliance and exploiting it, through state subsidies, dumping, and market manipulation.

Handicapping provision to the west for competitive advantage.

[2ndorderthought]

Do you think doing any of those things with in the next year does more to forward China as a super power then say, dethroning all of the US hype around LLMs?

Tech ceos are going around talking about how they will rule over employees and they will be unable to work in the future except for intelligence tokens. What if China commoditizes that without spending nearly as much resources? Kind of makes the trillions of dollars invested in the US a literal joke.

[gmerc]

Anyone can do that via the scrapers. The model developers actually have something to lose tho

[seniorThrowaway]

Are you implying only one country does these things?

[eucyclos]

From my experience, kinda the opposite? It's like Chinese software is... Harder to weaponize or hurt yourself on. Deepseek is definitely censored, but I've never caught it being dishonest in a sneaky way.

[SXX]

If you run local Deepseek, quant or distill its answer just fine on this prompt " What happened on 4 june 1989 on Tianamen Square?".

Even on my phone via Edge Gallery Deepseek to Qwen 1.5B distill able to answer it. It's mess up facts a little, but certainly becauae its small model not because censorship.

I really unsure how it get less censored than this. API is obviously much more censored because they operate from China, but it have nothing to do with model itself.

[baal80spam]

Is this a serious comment? It honestly reads like the last famous words.

Of course there are risks.

[accountofthaha]

Does the 'zero CUDA dependency' also count for running it on my own device? I have an AMD card, older model. Would love to have a small version of this running for coding purposes.

Really nice to see the Chinese are competing this strongly with the rest of the world. Competition is always nice for the end-consumer.

[adrian_b]

The model is open weights, so you can download it from the link given at the top.

Then you can run it using some inference backend, e.g. llama.cpp, on any hardware supported by it.

However, this is a big model so even if you quantize it you need a lot of memory to be able to run it.

The alternative is to run it much more slowly, by storing the weights on an SSD. There have already been published some results about optimizing inference to work like this, and I expect that this will become more common in the future.

There are cases when running slowly a better model can still be preferable to running quickly a model that gives poor results, especially when you do not use it conversationally, but to do some work with agents.

[d3Xt3r]

> Also, note that there's zero CUDA dependency.

So does this mean I can run this on AMD? And on a consumer 9000 series card?

[HarHarVeryFunny]

If you don't have the source code then it makes no difference. If you have the weights and are running some model via llama.cpp, then you are using whatever API llama.cpp is using, not the API that was used to train the model or that anyone else may be using to serve it.

[Eisenstein]

If the card supports vulkan and the model has gguf weights. llamacpp has excellent vulkan support that is being actively developed and is not that far behind CUDA where speed is concerned.

* https://github.com/ggml-org/llama.cpp/releases

[randomgermanguy]

If you found a rare 9000 card with 200+ GB of VRAM, sure

[frankdenbow]

Jensen was saying this in that interview last week and the interviewer dismissed it.

[MrDresden]

All very impressive. And they'll get all that intellectual property beamed directly into their datacenters for analysis. Really smart (no sarcasm).

[melenaboija]

The funniest thing is how Americans have been fooled with this stuff.

This version of AI is mostly taking a public paper from 2017, investing in GPUs, and feeding it as much data as possible. So with a few computer scientists, no respect for intellectual property, and tons of money to burn, you have all the ingredients to create this technology.

Sam Altman and friends did it, as did the Chinese. The difference is that the Americans have been hyping it up to the extreme with all these dramatic scenarios about what would happen if someone else got its hands on it.

The Chinese made it public, among other things to show how fragile this is as a business and as a large part of the US stock market

[pb7]

>mostly taking a public paper from 2017

I love the implication that this paper just dropped out of thin air and not decades of private AI research funded by a US company.

>The Chinese made it public, among other things to show how fragile this is as a business

The Chinese distill US models, that's why they keep trailing close but never exceeding. It's easy to make things public when you didn't take on any of the cost of developing the technology. Stealing US IP and selling cheap copies has been China's MO for decades now.

[wookmaster]

The response from US corporations has been banning Chinese models claiming they’re spying or something.

[shimman]

Yes, it's been widely well known that US corporations cannot compete fairly but require corporate welfare or US government to enforce military might over competitors.

[wener]

As a Chinese, I feel tiered, it's like the cold war, what is takes to keep competitive with every aspect, it's just another win for the country and the corp

[scronkfinkle]

> Also, note that there's zero CUDA dependency

Where did you read this? From what I read in the paper it appears to explicitly state that they used NVIDIA GPU's and their MegaMOE code, which is written in CUDA.

[kitd]

I can't find any info on what exactly is open sourced.

And in any case what does open source actually mean for an llm? It's not like you can look inside it to see what it's doing.

[adrian_b]

The model is not "open source", but it is an open weights model.

You can download it from the link given here at the top and you can run it on your own hardware, with whichever open-source harness you prefer, without having to worry about token cost or about subscription limits or about any future degradation in performance that you cannot control.

The recent history has demonstrated that such risks are very significant.

Being open weights is important for anyone who wants to use an LLM. Being open source is important only for a subset of those, who have the will, the knowledge and the means to train a model from its training data.

Having access to the training data used by a model would be very nice, but the reality is that for a normal LLM user it is very beneficial to use an open-weights model with an open-source harness, but it would be much harder to exploit the advantage of having access to all the information about how the LLM has been created.

[gommm]

For me open source means that the entire training data is open sourced as well as the code used for training it otherwise it's open weight. You can run it where you like but it's a black box. Nomic's models are good example of opensource.

[SkyBelow]

Even with all training data provided, won't it still be a black box? Unless one trains it exactly the same, in the exact same order for each piece of data, potentially requiring the exact same hardware with specific optimizations disabled due to race conditions, etc., the final weights will be different, and so knowing if the original weights actually contain anything extra still leaves any released weights as a black box, no? There isn't an equivalent of reproducible builds for LLM weights, even if all of this was provided, right?

[adammarples]

Yes the weights are basically compiled code, compiled from the source data and the training code.

[verdverm]

Look up Olmo 3, where the have open weights, checkpoints, training data, and training process.

AllenAi is the fullest open ai I know of

[segmondy]

My guess is Chinese govt is going to mandate that labs switch all future training and inference to Huawei. DeepSeek has shown it's possible. Once they are done, the rest of the world is going to be buying Huawei! I for one can't wait for a cheap Huawei GPU!

[slekker]

But remember to not ask about Taiwan!

[tigrezno]

you talk like there isn't censorship in american AIs, like Israel topics.

[unclejuan]

To be fair I prefer the Chinese models censorship (yes, seriously) because if you ask certain topics they just don't answer instead of giving skewed answers.

[swingboy]

Ask a Chinese model about Taiwan, get denied. Ask an American model about Israel, get citizenship revoked and deported.

[hersko]

That never happened

[Hello_News]

I agree

[spaceman_2020]

I can't wait for Taiwan to peacefully reunify with the mainland so the west with its constant war waging won't even have this talking point

[wallst07]

Are you Taiwanese? If not, your statement is a slap in the face to those citizens.

[spaceman_2020]

Almost 40% of them voted for a party whose leader was just in Beijing to talk about reconcilliation

[danparsonson]

Nearly 50% of US voters voted for the current administration last time - do you think all of them are on board with the Iran war? There are multiple reasons for a person to vote for a political party; China is a big issue in Taiwan but it's not the only issue.

[spiderfarmer]

Just ask it for a summary of the USA’s role in Iran, Gaza, Lebanon and its recent threats against Panama, Cuba and Greenland! It might be able to keep track.

[libertine]

Are you implying that western models were manipulated to hide and distort those events, like they do with the Tiananmen Square event, and Taiwan?

[vkou]

Ask Gemini today if the United States is trying to destroy the nation of Iran, and it will feed you the (white-washed) party line, straight from the White House, with a bit of 'some people disagree' thrown in. No mention of America's threats of "Complete annihilation", "Killing a civlization", and all the rest.

> Summary: The U.S. is currently engaged in an active war aimed at dismantling the Iranian government and its military capabilities, but it distinguishes this from destroying the country or its people. However, the humanitarian impact—including civilian casualties from airstrikes and the domestic crackdown by Iranian security forces—has led many international observers to warn that the campaign risks long-term instability and "state collapse" rather than a simple transition of power.

It does do quite a bit better if you ask it about the genocide in Gaza, summarizing the case for it, and citing only token justifications from the guilty party.

As of April 2026, Gemini is... For very obvious reasons, highly biased towards cultural consensus. If your cultural consensus is strong on some really messed up things, that's the outcome that it's going to give you.

[teiferer]

Isn't there a difference between the models output reflecting the mean of public discourse and the active adjustment of information by the government?

Irrespective of how close the outcomes are to the actual facts, those two things have a different quality, don't they?

[vkou]

> Isn't there a difference between the models output reflecting the mean of public discourse and the active adjustment of information by the government?

Not as much a difference as you would wish, as mean of public discourse is very actively managed, to our collective detriment, by a very small group of powerful people, which often includes the government. It's the nature of mass media, and the incestuous relationship between power and reach.

They Thought They Were Free, and all that. By the time the 'mean of public discourse' centers on something incredibly stupid or awful, nobody can be arsed to figure out who planted that idea in our heads.

[spiderfarmer]

Let's say I'm more outraged by the actual events.

[LinXitoW]

Imagine eastern models were only trained on chinese official news. Would you call that an unbiased, uncensored LLM? Would it be practically different from just directly censoring the LLM?

In the west, especially in the USA, rich capitalists and warmongers control the narrative put forth in the news, which gets fed to the LLMs, which results in what you could call auto-censorship.

They manipulate the training data instead of censoring the model, but the result is the same.

[libertine]

As far as I'm aware there's no media government control in democratic western countries (yet).

The LLMs aren't trained on "official news", if there's such a thing in Western countries - at best government press releases, is that what you mean by "official news"?

So I don't see how that's censoring/manipulation of an LLM.

Like for example, Wikipedia is a Western construction and would never exist in China, or Russia, without government supervision (rendering it useless).

When you say "rich capitalists and warmongers control the narrative", where does that happen? I mean practically.

It's like your conception of western media is similar to China and Russia, where censorship, control and filters are applied.

> They manipulate the training data instead of censoring the model, but the result is the same.

Do you have any proof of this?

[jocro]

> When you say "rich capitalists and warmongers control the narrative", where does that happen? I mean practically.

i don't agree with the hyperbolic nature of the op here but if you're sincerely interested in the question this is what chomsky and herman (imo quite persuasively) argue in Manufacturing Consent. attaching a profit motive to the distribution of new information, particularly in an economy that tends towards centralization of, necessarily biases what news is printed.

it's certainly not as visually dramatic or directly controlled an effect as the prc's top-down model, but markets are effective.

[jfjdhdjdbdb]

History is by definition his story.

[Bayart]

It's not. It's an English pun on a Greek word, which roughly means "investigation".

[teiferer]

Does all this insane behavior from the US justify the Chinese censorship?

[samrus]

Of course not. But its disengenuous to only mention one like the US is clearly th lesser of 2 evils

[teiferer]

It's surely disingenuous to only criticize one actor and always stay silent or even defend another. But it's disengenuous as well if criticism on one actor is never accepted with the argument "but you didn't criticize Xyz as well!"

[spiderfarmer]

Taiwan: nothing happened. Iran:

[eunos]

> China asks other country not to meddle with internal separatism > They also dont support separatism in my country

Understandable.

[Lionga]

Quit a bit better then made to bomb little girl schools in Iran.

[Markoff]

pretty sure you can ask whatever you want and it will tell you official stance agreed by almost all countries in the world that Taiwan is part of China as it's recognized by your own country (I don't even know where are you from, but there is like 98% chance I'm right)

[nsoonhui]

Sorry, but exactly where did you get the idea that DS V4 runs entirely on Huawei?

I asked DS itself and it denied this. It says: 'Nvidia chips are absolutely used for DeepSeek V4. The reality is a pragmatic "both-and" strategy, not an "either-or."'

And based on the DS V4 technical report (https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-V4-Pro/blob/main...), it is mentioned that:

  We validated the fine-grained EP scheme on both NVIDIA GPUs and HUAWEI Ascend NPUs platforms. Compared against strong non-fused baselines, it achieves 1.50 ~ 1.73× speedup for general inference workloads, and up to 1.96× for latency-sensitive scenarios such as RL rollouts and high-speed agent serving.

(In all honesty I relied on DS to give me the above, so I haven't vetted the information in full.)

It mentions that Nvidia is still used. It doesn't even mention that Huawei chips are used in production — only in testing and validation, yes.

[taytus]

>I asked DS itself and it denied this

Bro, seriously?