[koe123]

I grew up in the states when I was younger, always feeling some closeness to Americans even after I moved back to Europe.

With all that goes on it has changed. Recently I sat on a plane near some Americans discussing their holidays here, and I noticed I felt contempt. Sitting their with insane privilege as their government torches the world.

Individuals remain individuals, and one really ought not to be prejudice. However the lack of resistance I see in in the “land of the free” as their “democratic” institutions collapse just makes me believe they never cared at all. In France cars are torched if the pension age is raised. In America the rise facism apparently doesnt matter to them.

[0xDEAFBEAD]

>However the lack of resistance I see in in the “land of the free” as their “democratic” institutions collapse just makes me believe they never cared at all.

Largest protests in US history just in the past year:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_protests_and_demonstra...

>insane privilege

My sister and brother recently graduated from college, have been searching for jobs for over 6 months, they can't find anything. They're politically liberal Californians.

[cplusplus6382]

Largest parade not protest.

There was not a single actionable demand from that parade.

[seanclayton]

Where are you? Are you doing anything at all? Is commenting on Hacker News and taking a paycheck and maybe donating to some politicians all you're willing to do?

[0xDEAFBEAD]

I think you're being disingenuous with this sort of definition gerrymandering. "No Kings" is obviously a demand to stop the authoritarian behavior.

[Jcampuzano2]

A simple "demand" against this political administration is a waste of time.

[0xDEAFBEAD]

Research shows nonviolent protests are more effective.

https://www.npr.org/2026/02/12/nx-s1-5712280/minnesota-ice-s...

[abecode]

As a resident of MN I'm very proud of what fellow Minnesotans did to stop ICE's violent and illegal detentions here. Unfortunately the non-violent protest and anti-ICE techniques were met with violence from ICE, but the protests themselves were non-violent and well organized.

[Jcampuzano2]

Every single no kings protest led to zero results and were a mockery of what protest is even supposed to accomplish. These single day protests where everybody just goes home the same night are doing nothing.

Us as Americans have forgotten what a protest and resistance against the political elite even is. Its not a fucking dance party for already well off people to pretend they're actually doing something meaningful which is what usually gets the most publicity from these.

People needed to start breaking things yesterday.

[michaelmrose]

This provides a pretext to murder people and lock shit down. Violent behavior maked the general public prone to accept and even welcome authoritarian behaviour and policies.

We need to fight it on the streets non violently with actions that disrupt not destroy and resist in the courts and ultimately in the ballot box where we can win.

[swasheck]

zero _immediate_ results. hate is a powerful motivator and hard to overcome, and the political machinations also don’t really allow for immediate feedback. we will see what happens this midterm cycle. polls show repudiation of the current administration across all dimensions.

[scottyah]

It's just that mobility is still too easy. Anyone with slightly above-average intelligence and a bit of drive can join the oppressors, their arms are wide open. Fraud/corruption is rampant and accepted, all you have to do is open a daycare or homeless shelter and "bend the knee" by claiming some sort of disabled/minority/veteran/woman status. CA has raised over $80 billion for "homeless" and the money is getting spent but very little on the homeless.

[CuriouslyC]

Breaking shit is the path of most resistance. Do not do this unless you're young and poor.

The way to win is economic resistance. Stop spending and stop paying taxes. Crash the fucking economy so deep into the ground that the country self-immolates.

[scottyah]

What? Do you understand what happens to the subject of self-immolation?

[CuriouslyC]

It gets turned into ashes to provide nutrients to something worth growing.

[scottyah]

Ashes usually get no say in what grows in them, no matter how pure their intentions.

[0xDEAFBEAD]

Yes, because never in history has a rotten economy empowered right-wing authoritarians.

>the country self-immolates

Right-wing authoritarianism is a primal response to perception of disorder my dude. Don't pour fuel on the fire.

[CuriouslyC]

A bad economy is a noose around the neck of the people who own it, which in this case is the right wing authoritarians. The next people in line are the social democracy leftists. Look to Mamdani for where we're going when we hang the traitors.

[mettamage]

From my small bubble it's not that. I'm Dutch, married to an American who now knows enough Dutch such that we can treat it as a secret language when we're in the US.

My family in law seems to swing slightly republican. As a Dutchie, I could get some answers because I'm too naive not to talk about politics. So I got to probe a bit. What I simply found was that they'd say "I can't trust the news, none of it. Not CNN, not Fox News, nothing". Then I'd say "well in the Netherlands, I'd argue that while news outlets have their bias, you can trust them on basic factual reporting". She looked at me with a stare that I could only describe as "oh but honey, you're too young and naive to understand". To which I thought "you don't know the Netherlands. We're not perfect but we're nowhere near as deranged as what I'm seeing here".

I think that explains a lot of it for some people. The trust in the media, all media, is completely broken. Trump has how many fellonies now? Can't trust it. Kamala is doing what now? All talk. DOGE is fixing the government? I fucking hope so! But can't trust the damn news. Whether they do or don't, they are always burning money, god damn bureaucrats.

I feel that's the mindset that my family in law has.

[zmmmmm]

> I can't trust the news, none of it. Not CNN, not Fox News, nothing

This view gets echoed here on HN a lot. I find it very strange to be honest, because I tune in to CNN and I see lots of bias in the commentary and editorial, but when it comes to factual reporting they are pretty straightforward and down to earth. It seems to me that the real issue is people don't seem to distinguish between reporting and editorial content / commentary. Stop watching that garbage and actually consume the factual content and analysis. Yeah it's dry and boring but if that isn't enough for you then it just shows you never cared about facts in the first place.

[SkyBelow]

One issue with factual reporting is what facts are getting reported, given that public attention is a very limited resource. People consistently extrapolate from data without knowing if that data is good or bad. So if I show you news with 100 stories of people doing awful things on channel A and 100 stories of people doing awesome things on channel B, both will be factual, but one will have you living more in fear of everyone while the other will inspire you. These are still biases.

One of the least (to the extent possible given the topic) political examples is stranger danger. Kids are safer than ever before, but due to the way stories are reported when bad things do happen to kids, parents are less trust of strangers than ever before (and this is despite the evidence it isn't the strangers who are the risk to kids). The sum total experience that media provides now leads to parents being far more fearful and restrictive of their children than past generations, all without needing to tell any lies.

If all the police reports and research into stranger danger being a false narrative can't combat it, how will ideas with far less evidence to the contrary be countered? Should parents trust the news when it comes to the topic of stranger danger?

[mettamage]

> but when it comes to factual reporting they are pretty straightforward and down to earth.

No, not really. I mean for me, yea, sure, easy. But in the general case? It depends on who you are.

The reason I trust CNN is because when a Dutch news source reports more or less the same thing, I can easily see the reporting matches with that of CNN. Because of this, I personally have some built up trust with CNN. When I look at Fox News, oh deary... it's nothing like what I see on the Dutch news.

This is not something I do consciously, it's simply that I happen to watch Dutch news sometimes and I happen to see American news sometimes and it costs no effort for me to compare. Combine that then with that on HN I also sometimes see BBC and similar British venues (e.g. The Economist is also British I believe?), and now I suddenly have 3 countries worth of news sources.

Many Americans don't really know that the UK exists other than that they rebelled against it. Many Americans almost haven't left their 20 mile radius world (many also did of course). But it's these people that I tend to have a lot of in my in-law family or however you call it (schoonfamilie in Dutch). I'm quite exotic to them in that sense, and definitely foreign. Thank god they have some Dutch roots.

Point being: with that mindset, you're not checking out what the BBC has to say on a topic. You're checking American news, not because of patriotism but simply because of that's all you know and going outside of what you know costs effort. And you already have a job to do, come home late, just want to watch your shows in the evening and that's it.

I am by no means saying that this is representative for all Americans, it isn't. What I am saying is: I see this a lot in my slice of the US. The reason I'm sharing it is because what my in-law family is saying is definitely at a much more personal level than whatever conversation I've had with some random, but lovely, person from a hacker space or hacker house in San Francisco.

Yet, I don't see this view a lot on the news. Nor do I hear Dutchies talking about it, they are simply out of the loop when it comes to a view like this. I don't know how prevalent it is, but if many people of a family of 50 to 100 people is in a situation like this, then my bet is that they aren't the only family.

[InsideOutSanta]

Getting people to have an undifferentiated distrust of news organizations in general is an important aspect of technofeudalism.

[WarmWash]

The core problem with the news is that they know how to lie by telling the truth.

You can string together true statements that lead to a false viewpoint very easily. _This_ is the bread and butter of this awful media empire we have nowadays.

Vaccines contain cancer causing agents. Vaccines have crippled people for life. Vaccines have lead to children dying. Do you still want to get a vaccine?

All of those are true statements. But the whole thing is a lie.

[scottyah]

I think the biggest lever is just what they decide to give airtime to. It's known that humans are extremely moldable by anchoring- whoever they hear from first they are more likely to trust, and repetition- whatever they hear most they are more likely to trust. Key arguments are picked in some weird process I have yet to figure out, and then 90% of prime airtime is going towards whether <1% of the population people should be able to identify as another gender instead of all the real stuff going on that people should be hearing about.

[JumpCrisscross]

Out of curisoity, what is your wife's take?

My running hypothesis has been the trust breakdown arises from social-media overexposure driving lazy nihilism, which in turn gave free reign to a uniquely-corrupt class of politicians. But I'm not sure how to neutrally evaluate that.

[mettamage]

Will ask, can't promise an answer, but will post it as a child comment here (or edit this one if it is within one hour).

[virgildotcodes]

I think the collapse of public trust was very intentional, and the result of a much longer term effort than social media.

The most famous examples are likely the tobacco industry spreading misinformation through self-funded studies and experts, and the fossil fuel industry doing the same to seed doubt about climate change. But of course we can think of countless examples of entire industries and individual large corporations pushing out misleading bullshit, threatening or outright killing journalists and activists to cover up their catastrophic fuckups and their chronic conscious excretion of negative externalities.

This has all of course been going on since the dawn of time, but to focus on the last century in the US, we've seen all sorts of corporations and coalitions of rich and powerful people push misinformation into nearly every sector of our society - universities, science, journalism, politics, etc. in order to undermine confidence in shared facts, corrupt people's ability to discern whether or not something is fundamentally true, and sow confusion so that they can continue to operate in perpetuity in this chaotic maelstrom of doubt.

Lots of capture of government towards these ends as well, we can look at the concomitant constant cuts to education in order to weaken people's understanding of the world and ability to think critically. The revocation of the Fairness Doctrine was probably a step change, and Trump represents the sharpest recent escalation of all this.

From day one, he's done everything he can to shred any collective notion of shared objective truth. Anything he doesn't like is fake news, and the idea that the media is lying, scientists are lying, experts are lying, and institutions are lying, he has spread so fucking successfully through society, to the point where Americans no longer have anything like a shared sense of reality.

It seems like we're being reduced to tribes who are organized primarily around faith in various charismatic individuals.

I think this is fundamentally the worst thing he's done, because it lays the foundation for virtually every other conceivable and inconceivable abuse. If people can't even agree on what is happening, we're fucked. People and institutions in power can do anything they want to whoever they want, because the public has lost their ability to even recognize the danger posed to them collectively and thus mount any resistance based on a shared sense of reality.

Social media has definitely famously accelerated aspects of this like the fragmentation and the spread/magnification of fringe worldviews through echo chambers, but I think it's just one (and maybe this is controversial, but I'd be willing to be generous enough to think the 20something year old creators were too stupid to conceive of these long term consequences at first, but who knows, maybe not) element in a much longer and more intentional, malicious war against the many for the benefit of the few.

[dkga]

Not only that, but in tandem the collapse of social capital in the US has been the result of a very intentional process (on top of the multidecade undercurrent of declining social capital). This according to Robert Putnam himself (sorry, don’t have time to find the source now but will add it later).

[moshegramovsky]

Hannah Arendt wrote about the collapse of shared truth in societies. Trump is in some terrible company, literally and figuratively.

[scottyah]

Trump got so much support because people knew for a long time that the Establishment of mainstream media was switching a lot more towards promoting narratives rather than unbiased journalism. It became worse as paper and TV news was getting replaced by ad-driven clickbait. He called out the previously unquestionable Institutions, and then a lot of people just accepted what he said after that (very simplified).

[fastasucan]

I think this is spot on. "Every fault of america is just how it is in any society.". Nice way to just accept it.

[roer]

This is quite interesting. I'm not sure what can to be done to reverse this? When you've reached a level of untrust where you deem trust itself naive, how can you recover?

[mettamage]

Teach Americans to look at news sources in other countries?

Shooting from the hip here. Feels like a duct tape hack on first thought.

I mean that's what I do, subconsciously. I think a lot of Europeans do this because a lot of Europeans tend to speak English and then their actual native language, or something similar (e.g. I wonder how Swiss people experience this).

[vslira]

> In France cars are torched if the pension age is raised.

Democracy is… an organized group toppling decisions made by popularly elected representatives within the confines of the law?

[jorvi]

> In France cars are torched if the pension age is raised.

This is not something to be proud of. You guys are giving yourself loaned freebies, retiring 5+ (!) years earlier than countries like BeNeLux and Germany, and are pretty much expecting the EU to eventually pick up the pieces which will drag us all down.

Edit: always lovely when HN downvotes truths :)

[the_gipsy]

That's bullshit. Pensions are not a zero-sum game, and other countries don't have to pay for them.

It just doesn't make sense to delay retirement while youth unemployment is such a big problem. We ALL should be fighting like France, in many aspects.

[jorvi]

Other countries don't directly pay for the pensions, but France is staring into a giant fiscal abyss because of their low retirement age (and other generous social benefits). Any attempt to change those results in the country being taken hostage by rioters, thus nothing changes.

At some point France will be in too deep shit and will look to the EU to cover for them. We will all pay for that. And it is deeply unfair because other countries their citizens have accepted later retirement and more frugal benefits to keep their countries fiscally healthy.

France could cover the fiscal hole in other ways, but taxing corporations and wealth at a higher rate also consistently ends up being blocked. And each year the hole gets deeper.

[snakeboy]

> Any attempt to change those results in the country being taken hostage by rioters, thus nothing changes.

Your theory doesn't actually match with reality, given that Macron's retirement reform was passed into law despite protests. As currently enacted, the age of retirement in France will progressively increase from 62 until reaching 64 in 2030.

[jorvi]

It does match reality.

Reform wasn't passed, it was forced via a technicality after riots made it politically unpalatable, and it has put France in a governing crisis ever since.

Also, retirement in North, West and Central EU is 67+, not 64. Greece is at 67 too, although begrudgingly.

Again, I'd be equally happy if France covers the fiscal hole some other way, but I am not going to cover for a country that is willingly becoming the sick man of Europe because they want to live comfortably on borrowed time. Which, by the way, is a literal repeat of Greece its crisis. Time is a flat circle indeed.

[snakeboy]

> Reform wasn't passed, it was forced via a technicality after riots made it politically unpalatable, and it has put France in a governing crisis ever since.

You can call it a technicality if you'd like, but, the article 49.3 mechanism is a legitimate tool for the government under the French constitution. It is arguably designed to allow the government to pass pragmatic, but politically unpalatable projects like retirement reforms.

As for the governing crisis, it is simply a matter of Macron having used up the rest of his political capital on this reform, and he will conclude his term next year.

You are giving the impression that France is some kind of failed state unable to correct its course, where in actuality, the democratic process literally worked as intended:

  1. Macron proposes a necessary welfare reform to start reigning in the budget
  2. People go out and protest (unsurprising, as welfare cuts are universally unpopular)
  3. Macron's government uses an unpopular mechanism to pass the reform into law, which contributes to his government becoming a lame duck.

> Also, retirement in North, West and Central EU is 67+, not 64.

This is simply moving the goalposts of our discussion, so I will not respond. France's reforms under Macron are real, and directionally-correct.

[FrojoS]

It’s not bs. France is lobbying for “Eurobonds”, debt they can take at German interest rates and with Germans etc holding the bag, for about two decades now.

https://youtu.be/tMd7EfFsPIc (Video claims France is against them, but if they ever were they are not anymore)

[TomGarden]

I a European who spent the last decade in America and I'm not sure I'd call Americans privileged compared to Europe. With money being the one means you have to be treated well in society, comparing it to Europe, America feels like the hunger games. Want healthcare (ie surviving)? Healthy food? To own your house? Welcome to the games

[wiseowise]

Europe doesn’t wage war right now. Their point is that Americans are talking about vacation while their troops invade and destroy Iran.

[bbkane]

As a middle-class American, I don't feel like I have much input into the Iran war. I've voted, I've signed a few petitions, and I'm open to more suggestions for how I can stop the war, but I don't really think I can do much else- protest somewhere I suppose and hope that's helpful somehow

As a European, how do you influence your government?

[wallst07]

OP needs to read up on war history and the US. Spoiler, it's been this way since WWII.

[scottyah]

Ukraine?

[wiseowise]

Started by Russia against Ukraine and without active participation of Europe. US literally attacked Iran to support Israel.

If we go by analogies, Ukraine should've waged genocidal war against Belarus and eventually started bombing Russia and then Europe joined and they bombed Russia together.

[sterlind]

not all of us are just "sitting here with insane privilege." it's quite dangerous for some of us right now.

I'm trans. this Administration does not like us. after Charlie Kirk's murder, things got legitimately scary. Musk was retweeting people who called us "deranged bioweapons" who needed to be "forcibly institutionalized." NSPM-7 is surveilling and infiltrating trans organizations. the Heritage Foundation proposed labeling us as "ideological extremists," in the same category as neo-Nazis. if I'm arrested, I'll go to a men's prison where I'll likely be given to a violent inmate as his cellmate to "pacify" him (V-coding.)

so yeah, I keep my head down. a lot of Jews kept their heads down in Germany in the '30s, you know? and just like then, it doesn't seem like other countries are too keen on taking us in as refugees. I hope that changes if things get bleak.

[koe123]

You make a good point, I’m sorry to generalize.

[abacadaba]

I wish you well but your made up trans genocide is not comparable to jews in the '30's and unless you and your family are being rounded up and executed please stfu about it. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[eszed]

Not like the 1930s, no. But there are similarities in the discourse to how jewish people were demonized in the decades (well, centuries, in that case) previous. Your comment seems to suggest that no one should speak up for themselves until they face literal genocide. Care to walk that back?

[thehrht]

Not really the same at all. For a start, Jewish men didn't have laws passed to grant them unrestricted access to every space intended only for women. But men like the commenter upthread have had this done for them, at the request of allied activists. Can you see why this is such an unpopular policy? And that's just the tip of the iceberg. There's a whole child-harming medical scandal on top of this.

[eszed]

I won't defend those laws, if you'll agree not to defend the opposite legislation which would force very masculine-appearing individuals into the same women's spaces (obviously scary to the women there), and very feminine-appearing individuals into (scary-to-them, for obvious reasons) exclusive men's spaces. The bathroom issue is an area of easy agreement for people of good will: provide a few private, gender-neutral spaces. Job done.

The activists who talk about non-binary whatever being the apotheosis of humanity are annoying, because the reality is far more boring: transgender experience is a totally normal part of human variation. There's lots of evidence that they've always been a small minority in every society, much like most (all?) other sorts of neuro-divergence. They deserve recognition, dignity, respect, and reasonable accommodation, just like every other human being.

The rhetoric on the other side, however - there are examples linked in this thread, if they haven't all been flagged - is truly dire, eliminationist stuff. It's the same as has said about jews, and many other scapegoated minorities. Regardless of anything else, those sorts of statements must not be made about any human being, in any civilized society.

[sterlind]

you're right, I shouldn't compare the "eradication" rhetoric back then to the "eradication" rhetoric now. I shouldn't compare the concentration camp rhetoric then to the institutionalization rhetoric now. I shouldn't compare the systemic rape then to the prison rape now. I shouldn't compare the ambient risk of being arrested on the street then to the risk of being arrested in day to day life in unsafe States now. I shouldn't compare the ugly, antisemitic propaganda posters then to the ugly, transphobic propaganda posters now.

and I certainly shouldn't compare the moral panic then to the moral panic now.

I offer two hypotheses on why my original comment has been so heavily downvoted:

1. people think it's not that bad, or not going to get that bad, and/or

2. people think my people deserve it, while yours didn't.

[JonChesterfield]

Get out seems an important priority. Good luck

[hirako2000]

You felt contempt, can you imagine if you were Iraqi, Afghan, Syrian, Russian, Sudanese, Lebanese, Iranian, should I mention it: Palestinian.

[hersko]

They apparently all love america. They try to come here as soon as they get a chance....

[hirako2000]

Peasants also would accept to part of the king's court. Why not be the king even.

Doesn't change OP's point on contempt.