[Caligatio]

As a Helldivers 2 PC player who also owns a PS5, this new requirement doesn't bother me personally.

However, adding a requirement (it was previously optional) is boneheaded, maybe illegal. It must be terrible to be Arrowhead; they have to sit by and watch while their player base implodes because of a Sony edict.

[terramex]

Requirement was always there, just not enforced due to „technical issues”.

https://web.archive.org/web/20231207163847/https://store.ste...

> „Requires 3rd-Party Account: PlayStation Network”

However, making it purchasable from countries not supported by PSN accounts was big error on their part.

[Caligatio]

https://direct.playstation.com/en-us/buy-games/helldivers-2-...

Do I need a PSN account to play PlayStation games on PC?

No, you currently do not need a PSN account to enjoy PlayStation Studios games on PC, but you will need a Steam account to redeem your voucher code. Some of our PlayStation Studios titles also offer incentives for linking your Steam and PSN accounts.

[gambiting]

Irrelevant - the product page says otherwise and the game itself was explicit in telling you that a PSN account is required on launch.

[twixfel]

How is it irrelevant if it's coming from Sony itself?

[gambiting]

Because the consumer is presented with correct info on the product page by the party actually selling the product - Valve. It's the same when buying a car - the information presented to you at the dealership takes precedence over whatever the manufacturer's website says, because the legal assumption is that you are basing your purchase decision on what is in front of you when buying the car by the party actually selling it.

[Caligatio]

You can literally buy it from Sony and they email you a game key.

They're changing all their documentation to match their new announcement: https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1cjlnn1/sony_tr...

[shkkmo]

> you will need a Steam account to redeem your voucher code.

This is an official page where Sony themselves sell the game via providing voucher codes for steam. You can buy the game here without ever visiting the steam page. This clearly qualifies as false advertising.

[cma]

If you offer a nationwide fast food discount in an ad you have to disclaim 'at participating stores only' in order to not make it binding everywhere.

[zamalek]

Unenforced rules are a murky area. It's not as clear-cut as you suggest.

Another issue that has been raised is that Sony is notoriously incompetent with customer data.

[SXX]

Sony is one of the most customer-hostile companies in existence. Betting on them not banning you one day for breaking ToS is not an option.

[RobotToaster]

IANAL, but couldn't non enforcement create an implied-in-fact contract?

[leereeves]

I'm not a lawyer either, but Wikipedia says that requires "a meeting of minds".

It seems pretty clear that Sony always intended to require a PSN account (although that wasn't always communicated well, it was stated on the Steam store page, at the end of news articles, and in the game itself) so there was no meeting of minds. Just confusion.

[bun_terminator]

true in legal terms. But it was hidden and the reason given for the change was a blatant lie. They were deceiving users until they could no longer refund. Something like that is often called a scam or fraud

[gambiting]

>>But it was hidden

When you start the game, you literally get a full screen banner that says a PSN account is required to play and you must sign in. It's just that until now you could click cancel and the game would still launch.

How can anyone call it "hidden" is literally beyond me. It's not hidden on page 527 of the EULA or something - it's literally said explicitly on a full screen banner shown to every player who has started the game. Not to mention it's mentioned on the Steam store page.

[bluefirebrand]

Two things:

1) This dialog only showed one time, the very first time you launched the game

2) This dialog was skippable

If you skipped it one single time, it let you play for months now without ever seeing it again. If they wanted to make it clear it was mandatory eventually then the wording and behavior should have made this clear every single time you open the game

Allowing to skip means it's not mandatory, regardless of whatever language is written down on the UI, the TOS, on the steam page, or whatever else

If this was enforced upfront, people would have had an opportunity to refund immediately. If it was communicated clearly that the Skip was temporary, people could have made an informed choice about playing

[hiccuphippo]

Yes, how is it a technical difficulty to remove a skip button? Players from countries that can't legally acquire a PSN account, or don't want to get one, would have been able to return it ASAP. I guess it was easier to inflate their numbers.

[bluefirebrand]

The technical difficulty was that PSN was not integrated correctly so the skip button was put there so players could play without doing it

In their defense there is a sentence on that Modal that does say that a PSN account is required to play. It was also included on the Steam store page that it requires a PSN account. The issue I have is that the functionality of the Modal is at odds with the messaging. In this sort of case, I strongly believe that the Functionality should be taken as the fact, not the message.

If the messaging had been more clear that the Skip function was only temporary and a PSN account would absolutely be mandatory in the future then that would be different

As it stands, the message just seems like a Dark Pattern to try and get users who do not notice the skip button to link a non-mandatory PSN account.

[ClumsyPilot]

> Players from countries that can't legally acquire a PSN account

Would easily win a lawsuit.

As a publisher, it is your job to check these things before you process payment, that why you have a department of lawyers and regional availability settings in Steam.

If their system of accounts, online systems and EULA's are mutually contradicting and incompatible mess, that's on them.

Once you have taken my money, it is now your job to provide the service.

[bun_terminator]

In lawyer terms: yes.

But the reality of modern gaming is this: You start a game and do a marathon of pressing "no", "cancel", "skip", "x", "close" etc to shut off all the bullshit it throws at you. I did so with helldivers and was completely unaware what it says about psn. I didn't even know it was a console game or that Sony was involved! And I would never have bought it if I knew. So in practice I'd say it's exactly as hidden as page 527 on EULA

[leereeves]

I sort of agree, in that I skip a lot of the legal text during installation. I didn't read the EULA, for example.

But this requirement had an entire installation page dedicated to it. It was the only text on that page. I'm honestly surprised people somehow missed it.

[temp84858696945]

Not all players got this banner, especially players from countries where they cannot sign up for PSN accounts.

They never should have allowed sales in countries where people cannot legally sign up for a PSN account. Especially when they allowed those players to play for months and are now "banning" them, preventing them from playing the game they paid for.

In addition, literally the only place where this requirement was stated was the steam sale page - the EULA had no mention of the PSN account, Sony's webpage explicitly stated you did not require an account to play playstation games on PC.

[twixfel]

OK but by that point it is too late, you need to be informed before you purchase the game, not after.

> Not to mention it's mentioned on the Steam store page.

On the sony online store it's stated that it is not necessary.

[gambiting]

On the steam page it says it is. I wasn't aware that Sony's page says otherwise.

[bluefirebrand]

Sony's FAQ previously (on May 3) stated that a PSN account is optional for playing games on PC

On May 4, the day after this shitstorm happened, the FAQ was updated to say that some games on PC may require a PSN account

This was rolled out in absolutely amateurish fashion from start to end. Sony should absolutely be taking heat for this, and no one should be going to bat for them over it.

[gambiting]

It was clearly advertised on the steam page, but also on launch you had a full screen banner that said you MUST sign in with a PSN account to play this game. It's just that until now you could click cancel and the game would still launch.

So no, nothing was "added".

[shkkmo]

Sony was/is selling steam codes on their own store with a QA that clearly explains that PSN accounts are not required for PS games on PC

> https://direct.playstation.com/en-us/buy-games/helldivers-2-...

[junon]

Arrowhead has sold out before with e.g. Magicka, so I'm sure they're somewhat used to it by now.

You're not a developer that signs with a publisher like Sony without knowing the risks.

[Hugsun]

What happened with magicka?

[klik99]

It’s still playable but overrun with the worst kind of paradox dlc. Arrowhead are great devs but their biz side comes off as explorative. I was happy to see HD2 actually does a good job at post game monitization because they did such a sloppy job with mahicka

[re-thc]

> they have to sit by and watch while their player base implodes because of a Sony edict.

Happens all the time. Sony is the publisher. A lot of publishers "ruin" games.

[CaptainOfCoit]

> It must be terrible to be Arrowhead; they have to sit by and watch while their player base implodes because of a Sony edict.

Or, you know, don't make agreements that will upset your player base? I'm sure they never were forced to do anything Sony says, except if they entered into a business agreement with Sony, which again, is their own choice, and the developer knew about these requirements from the beginning, but made the requirement optional as they didn't get the technical details right at launch to require PSN.

It must great to be Arrowhead, where players seemingly blame the publisher like the developer has no responsibility over their own game.

[shkkmo]

Not only this, but I am not convinced that Arrowhead are entirely on the up and up about blaming Sony. I've seen too many places where the Sony messaging is pretty clear about accounts not being required. It seems very strange that Sony decides to make the policy change with this game without updating the policy.

[boesboes]

This. Everyone defending AH as if they are the victim here. Smh