[Podgajski]

Ugh. Please… You know, my grandfather was thin as a stick and lived to 99 and was as sharp as a tack.

Muscles need energy. When you use energy you produce waste. The waste in the muscles case is reactive oxygen species,. If you can’t clear that waste, you will become sick and fatigued and have disease.

If you increase muscle mass without making sure you’re getting rid of these reactive, oxygen species Muscle mass won’t do a thing for your longevity.

If you want to live longer, balance your oxidative stress.

[malfist]

I'm not entirely sure what "reactive, oxygen species" is, but I think you're talking about free radicals, which your body is quite capable of dealing with.

If you can't deal with "reactive, oxygen species" from muscles, you can't live. Your heart is a muscle.

[Podgajski]

Our bodies are quite capable of dealing with when we have the right nutrition and we don’t create too much oxidative stress. I can’t believe how little understanding there is of the impact of distress.

Just being deficient in manganese, zinc and copper could increase superoxides to a point that starts creating DNA damage.

And it’s funny that you don’t think reactive oxygen species damage heart muscles. If there’s too much of them that is. If there’s an imbalance that is.

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/omcl/2020/5732956/#

If you’re not exactly sure what reactive oxygen species are, then, why don’t you look them up before you make comments of what you know nothing about. If you’re making fun, about a stupid comma that Siri placed in my sentence then well, that’s just childish. And you’re not serious at all.

[kortex]

Strength training isn't the same as chronic distress though. Activity that uses muscles above current baseline leads to inflammation, which leads to hypertrophy and growth, which results in downregulation of inflammatory markers in the long term. The body upregulates anti-oxidant species in response to normal increases in oxidative stress. Yes, acute/extreme spikes in ROS generation is bad, but that's not what actually occurs in regular exercise.

Tomes of papers support the connection between physical activity, reduced inflammation markers, and decreased all-cause mortality.

Maybe you should actually take some courses in molecular biology, instead of googling some very basic high-level articles and over-generalizing to support your misguided point.

[Podgajski]

> Tomes of papers support the connection between physical activity, reduced inflammation markers, and decreased all-cause mortality

Correlation, not causation.

What the hell is muscle use above a curent baseline? What does that even mean? I’m pretty sure you’ve never taken a science class in your life.

[kortex]

> What the hell is muscle use above a curent baseline? What does that even mean?

Meaning, a conservative increase over your current training regimen, as opposed to over-training. If you go from couch potato to running several miles a day, that's going to be way more stressful than gradual ramp-up. I made that caveat because intense over-training can cause really bad things such as rhabdomyolysis at the extreme.

>I’m pretty sure you’ve never taken a science class in your life.

I'm pretty sure I have a BS in chemistry and worked as a synthetic chemist for years, and you are talking out your ass.

[Podgajski]

Maybe get another degree in biology and nutritional genomics before saying anything else about human health then.

[Podgajski]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7892233/

Further, whole-body resistance exercise increased oxidative damage. For example, resistance exercise at a 10-repetition maximum load increases the MDA level in the blood [19]. Furthermore, local resistance exercise, which is a single type of resistance training in a specific muscle group, can increase oxidative damage.

[kortex]

> Although initial investigations reported the negative effect of ROS, recent studies have shown that exercise-induced ROS can upregulate several enzymatic and nonenzymatic antioxidants in the biological system [7, 8], and exercise could be an optimizer of ROS in negating oxidative damage in the cells, while ROS can regulate signaling or act as a signaling molecule to muscular adaption.

Did you even read your own link, or are you just googling keywords and linking papers with a title that superficially supports your thesis?

[Podgajski]

Yes I did, thank you for continuing the conversation.

Those enzymes that it unregulated, those genes that they upregulate… do you know what they are? Let’s talk about one…mnSOD or SOD2.

Do you know that enzyme needs a co-factor and that co-factor is manganese. What do you think happens when you keep exercising, but do not replenish your manganese? mnSOD does not work as fast and this leads to a buildup of superoxides and disease.

Up regulating these enzymes because we’re exercising is not decreasing oxidative stress, it’s getting rid of the oxidative stress that we created. And all that results is that we deplete ourselves in manganese.

Does this happen for everyone? No does this happen for people who might have polymorphisms in there SOD2 genetics? Probably.

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpcell.003...

[kortex]

Ok, so make sure you get enough dietary manganese?

RDA for Mn is 1.8-2.3 mg/day. Tolerable upper limit is 11mg/day. Mn ions are highly conserved in the body and mostly cycle through redox states and various complexes.

That's actually a pretty narrow therapeutic window, again because it's a trace mineral and biology has evolved to recycle it very efficiently.

[Podgajski]

Yeah, that’s what I thought until I had my hair and serum levels of manganese tested. Which were both low. And taking manganese cured not only my chronic fatigue, but my insomnia and anxiety as well.

Also, there’s a study at Stamford going on right now, looking at manganese levels and illness and they’re finding that these ranges are old and arbitrary.

And that tolerable upper limit is a joke since I had to take 30 mg a day.

Just do a little research and find out where they got those limits and ranges from.

But, regardless, it proves my point, that exercise depletes manganese and that could cause disease in people who don’t have sufficient manganese. So just telling everyone to work out and you’ll live longer is a false statement.

Adding

https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/pub/3419

There are no reliable and validated biomarkers of manganese intake or status and data on manganese intakes versus health outcomes are not available for DRVs for manganese. As there is insufficient evidence available to derive an average requirement or a population reference intake, an Adequate Intake (AI) is proposed.

[kortex]

Reactive oxygen species (ROS) is loosely synonymous with "free radicals", which is more of an older term. ROS include free radical oxygen, but also other energetic non-radical species such as singlet oxygen and peroxide ions.

But yeah, your broad point is correct. Biology has several billions of years of evolutionary experience dealing with ROS and upregulates antioxidant biomolecules in response, it's way more complex than "ROS bad".

[Podgajski]

I didn’t say reactive oxygen species were bad, I said that oxidative stress is bad. And reactive Oxygen species is not an old term but nice try it in an attempt to make me look stupid.

Here are all the papers that use the terms since 2023

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_ylo=2023&q=reactive+Ox...

[jmauritz]

That some proper deep broscience I haven’t seen in years, “oxidative stress” nice!

[Podgajski]

Here is the science. You are mentally lazy.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7892233/

Further, whole-body resistance exercise increased oxidative damage. For example, resistance exercise at a 10-repetition maximum load increases the MDA level in the blood [19]. Furthermore, local resistance exercise, which is a single type of resistance training in a specific muscle group, can increase oxidative damage.

[Podgajski]

Listen, the Bros don’t even talk about oxidative stress. What do you think it is that oxidants cholesterol to cause coronary artery disease? What do you think triggers the DNA changes to cause cancer?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5927356/

[kortex]

You do understand that biology is complex and multifaceted, and aging/healing is more complex than "oxidative stress bad", right? The body does double/triple/n-tuple with almost every biomolecule. "Inflammation" (which isn't a single process) is widely vilified but it's absolutely necessary to grow and heal.

[Podgajski]

Of course, it’s complicated, but it’s simple as well. It’s just about Balance. Too much inflammation is bad. Too little is bad. we need just to balance them out, and it’s the same with oxidative stress. Reactive oxygen species kill pathogens but they can also kill us. We balanced them using enzymes, and these enzymes need enzymes and cofactors.

[kortex]

So then why are you being so contrarian? The overwhelming evidence supports the theory that a combination of strength and cardio training leads to better healthspans. And before you "correlation is not causation" yeah no duh, but the evidence is absolutely conclusive by now that exercise is better than not.

[Podgajski]

> overwhelming evidence supports the theory that a combination of strength and cardio training leads to better healthspans.

Better for who? That’s my point. Obviously my grandfather didn’t need it right?

But I’m against these simplistic explanations for something much more beautiful happening underneath all this bro science advice.

There is no evidence that strength and cardio ALONE leads to longer life and health spans. what I’m arguing is that there is something beneath what you’re all looking at that would help way more people if we understood it completely. And what that is is the balance and mitigation of oxidative stress. It is quite probable that because my grandfather did not work out, he did not create a lot of oxidative stress, and that’s what helped him live longer. What would be more important for humanity is understanding oxidative stress.

[foobarbaz33]

There's always 1 person anecdotes. Monohar the body builder and early Mr. Universe winner lived to 104. Continuing to lift to the very end. I'd wager he was the most mobile centenarian ever too.

[stinkytaco]

No, seriously, I had an uncle that smoked 3 cigarettes a day and lived into his 90s. I've started smoking a pack a day and I'll live well past 100, right?

I wish we, as humans, understood odds better. All health advice is about stacking the deck in your favor, but outliers always exist. I'd be more critical, except I'm sure there's some area where I apply a similar ignorance of the basics.

[Podgajski]

Yeah, everyone is an individual, that’s my point. You can treat us all as a mass, or the midpoint in a bell curve, but we’re not. And the majority of us will be outliers are on any bell curve

[stinkytaco]

> And the majority of us will be outliers are on any bell curve

This cannot be possible, by definition. The majority of us will be within one standard deviation of the midpoint on a bell curve because that's how bell curves work. And that means basic evidence based health and fitness advice applies to the majority of us. Not bullshit like "oxidative stress".

[Podgajski]

Being a standard deviation away is not being in the mid point of the Bell curve.

[blitz_skull]

Bro. I can’t tell if this is a joke or not. Outliers are a thing, there’s a good book on them. Your personal anecdote to your grandfather does not flip the table on all the research that clearly and definitively proves otherwise.

Beyond that, resistance training DOES combat stress. C’mon man. Some counter opinions just aren’t worth voicing.

[Podgajski]

I want you to tell me who is not an outlier on a bell curve? How flat is the bell curve? How tall is it? Aren’t really most of us outliers?

[alienicecream]

C'mon man, dude, bro just get with the program guy.

[blitz_skull]

This guy gets it.

[ryanklee]

None of that makes any sense.