[RosanaAnaDana]

I regularly 'help' my family with out of pocket purchases and expenses. I avoid giving money directly unless as cash because they prefer it that way. I also subsidize one parents rent by offering her reduced rent at a property I own. We still have a contract, but she doesn't pay the full amount I would charge other tenants.

The reality for many of us who grew up in poverty and may have 'made it' to a greater or lesser extent is that our families are likely didn't. It's shocking to me how many M's and Z's don't see themselves as being responsible for their families. I find it highly disappointing.

[blep_]

You don't know other people's life situations, even if you know their financial situations. My family consists entirely of terrible people who don't deserve my help. Any success I have is despite them, not because of them.

But even for people for whom that's not the case, you do not get to impose your morals on them. The idea of owing your parents anything more than you owe the rest of society is a nonsensical social construct that is thankfully dying out.

[DoYOuGiveMoney]

My parents were abusive and negligent towards me though they have tried gaslighting my childhood. I don't gift out of a sense of duty but for my own conscience. My father is elderly, my mother is not in the best health, and I realize my time with them is short.

[roland35]

You’re a better person than me! My parents were also abusive and I haven’t spoken to them in years. Even just thinking about them gets me sad and upset still. No way I’d send a dollar their way!

[cudgy]

> The idea of owing your parents anything more than you owe the rest of society is a nonsensical social construct that is thankfully dying out.

In your case, my comment likely does not apply as it sounds like you were abused horribly as a child, but the statement above is an extreme perspective to take generally, given that a person’s parent(s), typically at the least, provided them with some level of care when they were infants and young children. Of course, there are rare instances of horrible abuse, but it is not endemic. Also, one cannot even exist without parents, so we owe them at least that consideration versus a random person.

Most parents sacrificed some of their future to have children and ignoring that fact is usually (except in extreme cases) reflective of selfishness and self-absorption from the increasingly entitled populations of wealthy countries.

[blep_]

> Most parents sacrificed some of their future to have children

That's a choice they made, though (and usually for selfish reasons). It's like giving someone a gift and then getting upset when they don't pay you back for it.

[cudgy]

It’s not about pay back; it’s about helping those in need that once helped you. It also sets a great example for your kids to consider if the day comes when you are old and in need.

[blep_]

> It’s not about pay back; it’s about helping those in need that once helped you.

That... is paying them back, though?

> It also sets a great example for your kids to consider if the day comes when you are old and in need.

That would be the selfish reasons I mentioned. I consider it unethical to expect this of one's children.

[flippinburgers]

I don't actually want an answer because it isn't my business but you should ask yourself: are my parents "terrible" because they hold different beliefs than my own? Or are they terrible because they did something heinous like abuse me or someone I love?

Deeming parenthood a "social construct" and deserving of no attention from the child is ... you must not have kids of your own. That is the only way to explain your current attitude.

[blep_]

I'm going to answer anyway because I can read subtext and don't like people making such assumptions about me: one of them went to jail after putting me in the hospital. The other was an extreme helicopter parent with no concept of their own identity outside of being my parent.

I do not have children of my own, and don't plan to. I think you have the causation backwards, though: this is an effect of my unusual views on families and parenting, not a cause.

(Invariably, around this point, someone snarkily tells me it's a good thing I don't have kids. I unironically agree. Most people shouldn't, and I am very much in that group.)

[flippinburgers]

I'm sorry to hear about such a negative experience. In terms of you having kids, if you were to find a partner that you love and can imagine yourself being with for life, kids are actually incredibly wonderful. Given your experience, you could give them something your parents never were able to.

I wish society didn't seem to be so quick to judge having kids as a negative thing.

[blep_]

I have a partner like that, and this is a thing we discussed very early and very much agree on. Neither of us would enjoy it, and both of us would be terrible parents, because it is very possible to severely screw something up without it being malicious. It would be bad for everyone involved.

I wish society didn't seem to be so quick to assume everyone would be happier with children. Some people legitimately are, but it is not a guarantee.

[Georgelemental]

It seems like you had pretty terrible parents. And yet it doesn't sound like you would rather not be alive. So wouldn't your life experience demonstrate that even people who would be terrible parents, should still have kids?

[blep_]

... no? I legitimately, honestly, cannot comprehend why you would think that.

Had I not been born, I wouldn't know the difference, because I wouldn't exist. That I do exist now is irrelevant, because we're talking about a hypothetical universe where that's not the case. Not being born is a fundamentally different sort of thing than being alive and then dying. (If it wasn't, everyone who can physically have a child and isn't doing so right now would be committing murder.)

Everyone involved would've been objectively better off had I not been born. Both of my parents would have been happier. Everyone around them who had to deal with the fallout would be happier.

To be absolutely clear, this is not an expression of any sort of guilt on my part - I had no input into this terrible decision, and I take no responsibility for it. But any observer would have called it an obviously bad idea, if they didn't have to dance around the psychological and social implications of saying that within earshot of the child. One of the benefits of being an adult with a fully formed brain is that I can now look at such hypotheticals objectively, without conflating them with my own self-worth.

So my past, as terrible as it was, is a sunk cost. If I spontaneously died right now, it wouldn't undo any of that, nor make me or anyone else happier. The best I can do with the situation I am currently in is to keep living, and try not to repeat the mistakes of others.

[RosanaAnaDana]

I consider one of my parents to be an objectively 'terrible' person. I don't think I 'owe' them a god damned thing. However, due to good fortune, I am a person of some means. Its trivial to me to help them out in a mild sense. I do so not out of a sense of parental homage or heritage or any of that garbage. I do so because they are a person in need and its less effort to subsidize some of their costs than it would be for me to feign love or appreciation for the their failures as a parent. However, if it wasn't them, I'd be helping someone else in a similar position. Why? Because the fact is you do owe the rest of society. The non-sense idea that has never been the case is that we are islands unto ourselves. Only pissbabies who never aged mentally past the maturity of a adolescent believe they are their own making.

[blep_]

I actually do agree with you on this one. This wasn't intended as an individualist libertarian take (most of those people would call me a communist, though I don't call myself one), so much as an anti-preferential-treatment-for-family take.

> However, if it wasn't them, I'd be helping someone else in a similar position.

Exactly. I just skip to this part. Ignoring any sort of judgement of their actions, there are many people who need help far more than my parents do, and I'd sooner give money to them.

If my parents legitimately were the most in-need people I could find, I'd have some mental gymnastics to do to justify this, but that is not the case.

[eldritch_4ier]

Sounds like you had bad parents and now for some reason want to throw out the entire institution (as if it were possible) despite the fact that for the vast majority of humans it’s an overwhelmingly positive experience (not to mention just plain biological).

It’s not even imposing morals on you. The way you’re acting goes against the way humans have acted for thousands of years. To point out that you’re most likely wrong for making that decision shouldn’t be that controversial

[em-bee]

it's not about owing my parents anything but that as their child i am responsible to take care of them.

in fact, at least in germany this responsibility is even law. if i were earning above my needs, and my parents were on social welfare, i would be legally obligated to support them. same goes for siblings and children, and possibly other close relatives.

so here society does impose its morals.

or, put differenly, i see it as me owing it to society to take care of my famyly by myself instead of relying on society to do it for me

[danpalmer]

> It's shocking to me how many M's and Z's don't see themselves as being responsible for their families.

Is it really so shocking given the vast generational wealth inequality in much of society today? In many families the previous generation who may have been working class and earning relatively little, are now property owners, having bought when housing cost far less relative to incomes.

A generation with property and pensions don't need support from renters on historically low wages.

[eternalban]

> A generation with property and pensions don't need support from renters on historically low wages.

Right, but we are discussing Mom and Dad and their 'bundles of joy' here, not generational demographic subsets.

[RosanaAnaDana]

Its not like the many of the boomer generation have property and pensions either. The tail of the boomers caught the 1980-90's recessions right on the chin, and many lost anything they built up in 2008, ending up renting through till now.

Plenty of boomers have lots of property, but its a very bimodal bag of have lots and have nothings.

[drexlspivey]

> The reality for many of us who grew up in poverty and may have 'made it' to a greater or lesser extent is that our families are likely didn't. It's shocking to me how many M's and Z's don't see themselves as being responsible for their families. I find it highly disappointing.

You are saying this as you are charging rent to your mother? I have never heard of anyone doing that.

[sweetjuly]

"Hey mom, the rent board approved an 8.8% rent increase. Please sign this document acknowledging the new rate or indicate that you will vacate within 90 days. Thanks, love you!"

[Pigalowda]

Right? If it's rent of $1/month I would totally understand. But the way he phrased it sounds like 25% off his usual going rate. For comedic effect I'll imagine it's 25% off. Or better yet he's charging the entirety of her monthly SSI check and she has to pay for food with a SNAP card.

[Kokouane]

Perhaps they cannot afford the mortgage payments without some assistance in the rent? Charging her a reduced rent is still better than the cost of living elsewhere.

[jimmux]

I'm not in the US so rules are different here, but that's somewhat the situation for me as my mother's "landlord". My mum also insists on paying so she can feel at least some ownership in the property.

There are other factors. I make a loss on renting this property, which has to be reported for tax reasons. If I was charging below market rates it could raise flags. Because my mum also receives an allowance as full time carer for my aunt, it additionally allows them to also claim a bit in rent assistance.

This felt a bit off at first but I have confirmed it's all above board. Better than paying off someone else's mortgage. Most importantly, a few years ago my mum was homeless and my aunt had nobody willing to care for her. This way they have a secure roof over their heads so I have no regrets.

Then there's my brothers who have moved in rent-free while they get back on their feet after a rough patch. It's tough for a lot of people out there, so we have to do what works.

[mindslight]

You missed the sentence right before the one about charging their mother rent:

> I avoid giving money directly unless as cash because they prefer it that way

Lots of people want to pay their own way, but old people often have a warped sense of how much things should cost (see the "I worked a part time job to pay for college" thing). So letting their mother think she's mostly paying for her own apartment is itself a kindness.

[RosanaAnaDana]

You've never heard of someone renting a property to a friend or family member at a reduced rate?

Maybe you need to get out more.

[drexlspivey]

A friend or your second cousin is not quite the same as your parent is it? Maybe you need to strawman less

[antisthenes]

> It's shocking to me how many M's and Z's don't see themselves as being responsible for their families.

Probably because most Z's are still just entering the workforce, and most M's have just began to earn decent money, because of the 2008-09 banking crisis. HN is not representative of the population at wide, so the sentiment you're seeing probably doesn't apply to people making $200k+ total comp.

> I find it highly disappointing.

Do you do anything about it?

[the_only_law]

> Probably because most Z's are still just entering the workforce

I’m on the older end of GenZ and my parents are middle aged happily working good jobs to support themselves and the new set kids they decided to have.

GP really just seems like they wanted to bitch and whine about “kids these days”.

[antisthenes]

> GP really just seems like they wanted to bitch and whine about “kids these days”.

Not really. Both things can be true. Some Gen Z/Ys absolutely loathe their parents, some for good reason and some, not so much.

[the_only_law]

That’s not the point. This was not about whether someone “loathes” their parents or not. It’s about a feeling of responsibility and financial support. GenZ is at the oldest ~26. Most of them are probably not in the position to brankroll other people and many of their parents are not helpless seniles anyway. The youngest are still fucking children. Are we seriously expecting teenagers to see themselves as responsible for their parents?

And shit if we’re making sweeping generalizations about generations based on personal anecdotes, both my GenX parents had very poor antagonistic relationships with their parents. So don’t try to pin everything on people who came after you.

[brailsafe]

I suppose that could be an interesting thing to elaborate on. Do you feel like M's and Zs should feel responsible for their families any specific way?

I'm 30 and it's hard to see a future where I'll have any of the financial advantages they did. It's possible, if things go amazingly well, even though I make at least 2.5x their salary at any given moment (on the very low end for a software dev in general with >5 years experience)

I likely won't have kids, might not ever own a home, might end up homeless again, but everyone's situation is different.

Granted, they had kids accidentally, and screwed up their entire adulthood from day 3, but things seemed a little more forgiving because their parents didn't do that.

[RosanaAnaDana]

I think we're all responsible for each other in some way. It doesn't have to explicitly be your biological family, but industrialization has resulted in the atomization of social bonds and familial units, largely in an effort to commoditize and monetize them. Humans evolved in large social units, and we relied on social bonds not only for a shared sense of identity and community, but also for protection, the shared accumulation of resources, etc.

Modern society appears to make many of those evolved tendencies no longer a priority. However, with a bit of a deeper stare, many of the ills we all suffer in this world can be seen as an extension of this atomization. I suppose my broader thesis is that I think we're all responsible for one another in some way. It doesn't need to and shouldn't go beyond your means, but if you can help someone else out, you should. Another example, is that during the pandemic, I let some neighbors and friends take over sections of one of my yards for gardening. They ripped up an area of maybe 200 sq feet, and planted a nice garden for themselves. I had already built and established my own raised beds, but they lived in an apartment, and didn't have access to a community garden. Its a small nicety, a tiny bit of community, but it was basically no effort and minor cost to me to do so.

I'm by no means suggesting that you should impoverish yourself to help other people. I'm following a broader thesis that human bonds and community are things that require building, not bought or borrowed. I do so where I can when I have the means to do so.

And this is where my disappointment with M and Z lay. I don't blame them; I attribute it to the commercialization of all things that has resulted from whatever this modern quagmire we're in is. I'm squarely an 'M', but so many of this generation seem to think that community is something they can buy. They don't seem interested or to understand that sometimes you have to dig your heals in and build the world you want to see. I don't think B was any better in this regard, but M and Z don't have the advantage of a favorable game board to play on. We'll have to do things differently to win.

I think maybe I got lucky, in that I had a period of a couple of years of homelessness after I got out of military service. I ended up in the anarchist/ revolutionary scene, and saw people building a community they wanted to be a part of. They did what they needed to for survival, and a big part of that was building a community. Creating social bonds and ties. Giving and receiving small kindness from one another, like a deal on rent or a space to garden. Offering kindesses where you can is one way to create community, and if you can afford to do so, you should. I've carried that sentiment with me through the decisions I make. If I can make an effort or offer a small kindness, I will. I'm trying to build community where I stand. Its not something I expect to buy or have to rent. It comes from within ourselves.

[kbrannigan]

You should hear the corporatized therapy advice on tiktok.

It's full of nuggets like:

- you're not responsible for your parents, you should never have to take care of them because they gave birth to you.

- you owe you family nothing.

It made me sad, if it weren't for my parents I wouldn't be here today.

[PuppyTailWags]

I'm of two minds. If course it sucks to be ungrateful to someone who sacrifices real economic opportunity for you.

On the other hand, it's super important for parents to not view their children as property. You're raising something to eventually become a fully fledged, full-agented human, and if they still feel obligated to you purely because of your blood (vs out of seriously analyzing and then concluding that a relationship with you is worth investing into) then you've failed to raise this human with a full sense of agency.

Yes, children shouldn't have to take care of their parents just because the parents birthed them. Children should take care of their parents because the child-parent relationship continues to be great.

[lotsofpulp]

> It made me sad, if it weren't for my parents I wouldn't be here today.

I am a parent, and I want my kids to feel like they owe me nothing. If they want to help me or or spend time with me, I want it to be because they enjoy it. And I absolutely do not feel that they need to take care of me.

I do not want to become a burden for them in a way that prevents them from doing what they want.

[gameshot911]

Children have a "responsibility" for their parents in the same way that a tourist has a "responsibility" to give money to those people who run up and tie a bracelet to your wrist, then demand payment. It was a unilateral action - the tourist didn't ask for it, even if they (or did not) benefit from it.

"Kind"? "Nice to do"? Sure.

But a responsibility? Absolutely not.

[NikolaNovak]

Responsibility is probably a socio cultural construct here. My perspective is one absolutely does have responsibility to their parents (exceptional circumstances aside), but I have noticed that as one of the major differences between north America and where I grew up (on both sides of the life equation mind you: where I was born kids weren't supposed to get jobs in high school or pay rent until at least out of university,and generally stay in their family home until they're ready to start their own family. Whereas my grade 12 in Minnesota, everybody was looking to get as far away from their parents for university as humanly possible, and those that didn't had to start paying in - whether rent or car insurance or something. So it feels like the social contract is simply different, even if it feels cold to me :)

[janalsncm]

Responsibility is always socially constructed. The idea that one person can “owe” another doesn’t exist without people. It’s not a law of nature.

That said, we have drifted very far from the nasty, brutish, and short version of prehistoric society, where your parents might be some of the main people you ever interacted with. Taking care of your parents in that context is quite obvious, because when you were helpless they took care of you, and otherwise no one will take care of them.

[BaseballPhysics]

> Taking care of your parents in that context is quite obvious, because when you were helpless they took care of you

Well, let's be clear, that is far from universally true.

There's also degrees of care.

I absolutely see where the GP is coming from: my parents chose to have me, I didn't choose to have them. So why would I owe them for simply living up to the responsibilities they chose to take on?

Now, for amazing, supportive parents, the child will want to support and care for their parents when the time comes.

But not everyone has good parents, and I do not believe a child has a responsibility to care for an absent, abusive, or otherwise bad parent simply by dint of genetics.

[topkai22]

That is a perspective with support, but I don’t believe it is commonly held. I’ll posit that the vast majority of people are happy at the the fact they exist and so feel there is some degree of obligation to those that enabled that to happen, even outside the normal bonds of familial affection.

This belief is common enough that in some circumstances you have not just a moral but legal responsibility to support your parents:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_responsibility_laws

[gkfasdfasdf]

Children taking responsibility for elderly parents is how society has functioned for millenia. It's a good system.

[lotsofpulp]

I disagree. I hope my children do not spend inordinate amount of resources helping me. I want them to live life while they are young and healthy.

If I ever need day to day care for basic needs, I hope I can put myself out of my misery. I want society’s resources to go towards the young, not to keep 80+ year olds limping along.

I watched my parents spend their youth taking care of day to day needs for my dad’s elderly parents. What a waste. My grandparents lived far too long, especially at my mom’s expense.

[janalsncm]

That’s one way to look at it. Here’s another: unless you have an identical twin, there’s no one on the planet who is more closely related to you than your parents are. To a first order approximation, you are them.

No one can make you care about other people, but if you choose to do so, your parents are a pretty good choice. They are the only people on the planet who will love you without contingencies. And they won’t be around forever.

[gizajob]

This is the wrong analogy to use

[bertjk]

What do you mean by M's and Z's?

[simonw]

My guess is millennials and zoomers, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Z

[sinistersnare]

Millenials and Zoomers, I assume