[mhoad]

Tesla is potentially in meaningful trouble at this point.

Basically the entire market of everyone who realistically might consider an electric vehicle in the next five years overwhelmingly wants nothing to do with him moving forward.

Sounds like it’s already starting to bite as well https://www.cnet.com/tech/tesla-buyers-are-bailing-because-o...

[ZeroGravitas]

The Chinese competition overtaking them in the EV market (apparently they keep having to discount Tesla's in China to keep sales up) is likely a deeper reasons but the Twitter shenanigans may well be the element that catalyses that realisation more widely.

[stjohnswarts]

I think the people voting him step down from twitter were trying to save him and tesla (etc) and not trying to be mean. Most people can recognize an individual in crisis.

[mcv]

One crazy theory in the "4D chess" category is that he did the Twitter thing explicitly to alienate liberals and be embraced by Trumpists in order to get the gas-guzzling coal rollers to buy his electric cars. Liberals would just switch to Nissan Leafs or something like that.

[gregjor]

Let's not pretend Musk plays a 4D chess game we can't understand. Musk admits he makes it up as he goes. He repeatedly demonstrates an inability to plan or make meaningful predictions, or to deliver on promises. He lacks the planning ability and patience to play even 2D chess.

Musk craves constant attention. If he can get that by flirting with the right and pissing off some segment of "the libs" he'll take it. A person tweeting nonsense at 4am just wants attention, in whatever form it takes.

[mcv]

Of course. It's a ridiculous idea. But there actually are people who claim he's playing some sort of 4D chess. Always without any idea of what he'd be trying to accomplish. This is the only one I've come across that actually makes some sort of sense in a very roundabout way. If you really believe that it's some genius 4D chess move, then this is the most plausible theory I've come across. But the sacrifice on his side would be enormous.

[mhoad]

That theory fundamentally misunderstands Trumpist mentality which in no way is going to start buying electric cars because they see it as an affront to their fragile sense of masculinity.

[mcv]

Unless they can do it to own the libs, perhaps?

I don't know. It's certainly a massive gambit in that 4D chess game, and unclear it's going to pay off.

[mhoad]

I promise you this isn’t a “let’s wait and see” situation.

Nobody is going to be splashing out the kind of money needed to buy a Tesla as a car they up until this point they hated at a conceptual level to “own the libs”.

These are some of the most insecure men alive that we are talking about here. They don’t want to explain to their friends why they are suddenly driving an electric vehicle. They will look for a million other performative ways to own the libs before they ever consider that.

[survirtual]

There is still no real general contenders for Tesla realistically speaking, and I would really like it if there was. There just isn’t.

No one else is putting out EVs at the volume and quality (functional quality, not finishes / luxury) that Teslas have and it isn’t even close.

The Tesla battery is stupidly reliable. The car in general is the most reliable vehicle I’ve owned and it isn’t even close. I have ~200k miles on my 2019 Model 3, and I taken it to ungodly places off roads, through deserts, tornadoes, hurricanes, blizzards, beach coasts, every terrain imaginable — some even jeeps would have issues with. I had to replace the bottom a least twice because I ripped up the covers, but not once did the vehicle ever stop running or being reliable.

When I set in other vehicles, it is like I’m in the past, or some invisible super powers have left me.

I don’t have high opinions of Musk and wish he didn’t get involved with Twitter at all. It would have been better for him to be focused on acquiring more funds for the mission towards sustainable energy and multi-planet species. Stop taking credit for the work of others and do everything possible to enable them instead of managing them; his companies do well because the people believe in the mission, not because of him. After this situation boils down, Tesla will still be producing the best EVs on the market, because the mission is a good one.

Long story short, I don’t want to do with Musk but in the foreseeable future I don’t see me getting any EV besides a Tesla. There are just too many variables to consider when managing a battery and battery life, and even if another company comes out with something that looks better, I’m willing to bet reliability won’t even be close & the battery pack will be significantly degraded after a year — not to mention the lack of a nation-scale charging network.

[d23]

Where is this “stupid reliable battery” line coming from? I’ve heard this exact phrase multiple times, and I have no idea how a consumer would be in a position to judge such a thing, so it makes me suspicious.

[bravetraveler]

Similar thoughts here.

Taking the car on terrain is more a question of ride height than durability, anyway

Being able to roll over things is the minimum

The real car manufacturers are slow and lazy, but they only need to learn how to slap electric motors and batteries in there

As far as I'm concerned, musk did his part. He got EVs to be a part of the conversation

[stjohnswarts]

This has been my point in many arguments. I don't need an autopilot or 24/7 connectivity. I just want a basic jeep/sedan/truck that does what we've been doing with them for the past 100 years. My phone can do the rest of what I need from connectivity. I would be fine (more than fine) with a usb stick firmware upgrade. The less my car is connected over wifi/5g the better. I don't need anything beyond the standard instrument cluster. Upgrade me all around to LED lights everything and we're good. Think of me as a digital Amish. I only want those things that are functional and efficient.

[survirtual]

I actually agree with this.

Want to start a new EV company? Could build a barebones, rugged EV that is cheap as hell, easy to hack, and has no unneeded electronics / no connectivity. I would switch over to that in a heartbeat.

[survirtual]

I’m in a position to judge it because I have 200k miles in ~3 years, with a battery that has gotten beat to hell, in the coldest and warmest places in the US with 95% fast charging. It runs basically nonstop in the most extreme climates in the US.

I’d call that stupid reliable.

Doesn’t matter to me in any case; as long as Tesla can survive, all this hate just means there will be a shorter line when I grab my next one.

[cmurf]

I've got a 25 year old car that's done all that, no major repairs. I'll be surprised if a Tesla lasts 12 years.

[survirtual]

Your 25 year old car eats gasoline and takes a dump on the Earth, at the cost of the health of everyone.

I’m not willing to do that to anyone, and since an alternative exists, I use it.

[clouddrover]

> There is still no real general contenders for Tesla realistically speaking, and I would really like it if there was. There just isn’t.

There appear to be many contenders, but then Europe's a bigger EV market than North America:

https://eu-evs.com/marketShare/ALL/Groups/Line/All-time-by-Y...

The best EV platform for price to capability (800v, V2L) at the moment is probably Hyundai's E-GMP platform used in the Hyundai Ioniq 5, Hyundai Ioniq 6, Kia EV6, and the Genesis GV60.

The best value EV is the Chevy Bolt: https://electrek.co/2022/12/20/the-chevy-bolt-is-about-to-be...

The outright best platform is the Lucid Air for both range and performance:

https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyDpQpcPpuc

[survirtual]

This Ionic 6 looks interesting. Has the base specs I would want, if it was around when I got my Tesla I may have got that instead to have a brand with less mental space in people’s head.

Lucid Air has an outrageous price for 4 doors slapped on electric motors so I wouldn’t even consider one.

[pwinnski]

I've been driving a Fiat 500e for a few years, and I love it, but nobody would consider it competition for Tesla.

My new 2023 Chevrolet Bolt EUV, on the other hand, it's amazing. And so inexpensive!

[alphabettsy]

> Model 3, and I taken it to ungodly places off roads, through deserts, tornadoes, hurricanes, blizzards, beach coasts, every terrain imaginable — some even jeeps would have issues with

This is borderline comedy. I think you’re tremendously underestimating what a Jeep can do just with its ride height compared to a Model 3, that’s before considering the hardware that makes them significantly more capable. A stock Model 3 cannot cross a log or a high median.

[spoils19]

I don't know about you, but I vehemently agree with the GP. I've taken a Model 3 right through the middle of a tsunami and the water literally parted like the Red Sea thanks to the innovation of Musk. My family and I were far safer than we would have been in a simple jeep.

[ryanwaggoner]

Sadly, I can no longer assume this is satire.

[survirtual]

Nah. Instant torque and a low center of gravity give a Tesla super powers that a jeep doesn’t have.

There are many places higher clearance vehicles can go that I can’t, but there are many places I can go that they can’t — without puncturing an oil can, or rolling over, or any number of other reasons.

People here can say what they want, but I’ve been places on the US and seen things, with pictures to prove it, that most Americans won’t see in their lifetime.

[alphabettsy]

Can’t explain why I’m indulging this because it seems like a joke, but do you have an example of a place a stock Model 3 can go off-road that a Jeep Rubicon cannot? Like a photo or video?

[survirtual]

If I took some time I can think of several. Most would be hard for someone to relate to because of the extremes of where I go. But here is one that may have saved my life.

I was driving through Montana to Spokane, WA and going through the mountain passes between Missoula and Spokane. There are two, Lookout Pass and Fourth of July Pass, both can get pretty bad during the winter.

I am driving towards Lookout pass and it is looking okay; middle of winter but the weather isn’t bad. Right when I get to the major ascension, a storm hits. Visibility completely plummets. I can’t see the road & it becomes difficult to even tell where the side is. I can’t pull over because there are cliffs & visibility was so bad it was not possible to make out the boundary, so I went forward.

Eventually, there was a clearing where you put on chains — for people who thought they could make it and fight to get up, but realize they can’t probably. Anyway, this area was visible because it was lit like sunlight with lighting. i start to veer towards it. Unbeknownst to me, I veer off the road and into the middle. I hit the center of the roadway with a ton of snow packed from shoveling and my car flips on its side….then, stops.

Understand I an on my left two wheels and my car is sideways at > then 45 degrees. I was just happy I wasn’t off a cliff rolling down to my death, and that I stabilized. If I was in just about any other car, I would either have completely flipped or be impossibly stuck and need a tow. In a Jeep, no question this is a flip btw, Jeeps can flip easily especially at that speed and angle.

So I am sitting there sideways, not flipping, and everything still works, so I just do standard “stuck in snow” procedures, starting with going forward and back to slowly build momentum. I do this for about a minute while holding a hard left and, to my surprises, I start moving sidewise. Like out of a cartoon, my car just plops back on all 4 and I keep driving like nothing happened.

It took a crisis that could have resulted in a flipped & buried vehicle, with no cell reception and a practical blizzard outside near a mountain peak, and made it into a funny happenstance.

I drove much slower and more cautious after that and finished the rest of the journey safely.

Not an offroad story but paints the picture of what low center of gravity + electric AWD can accomplish.

[alphabettsy]

Good story, but I see we have completely new goalposts and a new field too.

> Most would be hard for someone to relate to because of the extremes of where I go.

There is nowhere a Model 3 can go and come back as it left that any off-roader would consider extreme.

[drcongo]

I don't know if this is true in the US, but it's absolutely not true in the rest of the world - there's a huge choice of EVs that are considerably better than a Tesla, with the added bonus of being nothing to do with Musk.

[stjohnswarts]

Uggg we can get anything we want here in the US as well. Lol why do Europeans assume the entirety of the US is a 3rd world backwater nation.

[pwinnski]

Get a 2022 or 2023 Fiat 500e, a delightful EV. You can't, Fiat stopped selling them in the US. My 2017 is great, though!

There are many different cars and trucks and vans on the roads in Europe that don't seem to be available for sale here at all.

There are many choices available in the US that are better than Teslas, but there are even more in Europe.

[survirtual]

Name one of these “many choices” under $60k.

I’ve looked at all of them and I am telling you, there isn’t another choice of an all EV that can go over 300 miles in a charge. The ones that claim have too many reports of rapid battery degradation after a year, and lack a meaningful fast charging network to go anywhere. Most have under 300 miles of range.

It is one thing to say “look at how many are manufacturing EVs”, and a whole other to say look at how many are manufacturing EVs ordinary people can get and use to drive across the US in an old fashioned road trip.

There are so many small details that have turned me into saying what I’m saying. Like being able to run climate all night in a Tesla and not freeze while in the middle of no where in winter, and sleep, while still having enough charge in the morning to make it to a charger. Or going into Death Valley and up a canyon, running nearly out of charge, hiking and enjoying the place, then almost completely recharging on the way down with regen braking. There are things I’ve done with this vehicle I wouldn’t dream of doing with others, years of trust built up in small capabilities most people wouldn’t think about or imagine are possible.

About the only vehicle I’d trade my Tesla for and take a chance on is a Rivian, but I want to see the longevity and support of Rivian play out before I’d get one.

[pwinnski]

Sure, it's easy to come up with a filter that automatically excludes a long list of great cars.

For example, are you aware that the cheapest Tesla available to me with a range over 300 miles is $56,160 plus tax, title, and license[0]? That's $20k more than I paid for my car! The seven less-expensive Teslas available can't do 300 miles on a single charge either.

I've got an amazing 2023 Chevy Bolt EUV that I love, that I bought for much less than any Tesla available within 200 miles of me, even the ones with a 267 or 272-mile range. And that's before the $7500 tax credit I'll get, which I wouldn't with a Tesla, so more than $18k less overall.

But hey, my EUV is only rated with a 243-mile range. Which is more than my Fiat 500e, and plenty long enough for road trips, given the ABRF app, but fails your filter.

I'm glad you're happy with your car.

0. https://www.tesla.com/inventory/new/m3?arrangeby=plh&zip=750...

[travisporter]

But several cars say they have over 300 range including Hyundai/Kia, Mach e. I’m curious because I’m in the market and agree Tesla is tried and tested. Just not a fan of the interior and touchscreen on my test drive.

[spoils19]

Exactly. Anything else in the world, you can find in the US for cheaper and higher quality.

[pwinnski]

Anything I can find in the US, I can buy cheaper in China, or higher quality in Europe.

The US is neither the cheapest nor the highest quality for most things, although it provides a reasonable trade-off of the two for many things.

[Zigurd]

Homelessness, declining life expectancy, infant mortality, guns, brownshirt gangs, lax regulations...

[prewett]

Homelessness/100k [1]: UK: 54.4, France: 45, Netherlands: 18, China: 18, US: 17.6, Germany: 4.4, Russia: 4

Life expectancy [2]: declining everywhere at about the same rate

Infant mortality [3]: Europe ranges from 2.5 (Spain/Portugal) to 3.4 (Netherlands) to 3.6 (Switzerland, Greece) to 3.8 (UK); US is 5.2. By comparison, Canada is 4.8

Guns [4]: Europe is hardly some gunless utopia. Switzerland has 27 legally owned guns per 100 people, Portual 21, Germany 20. Granted, the US does have 120 guns / 100 people.

Brownshirt gangs: no idea what this is

Lax regulations: hard to quantify this, also "lax" compared to what? Europe is frequently accused of having overly restrictive regulations, especially by entrepreneurial types.

The US has problems, but it's hardly a third-world place by these measurements. Instead, it comes off as the sort of condescension that your parent was complaining about. And it's not like Europe doesn't have it's share of problems.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_ho...

[2] https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy

[3] https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/infant-mortalit...

[4] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-owner...

[skinnymuch]

Yes the people taking advantage of lax regulation in order to be wealthy capitalists are going to say regulation is overly restrictive. It benefits them. That’s what neoliberalism is. Which happens to be America’s economic system.

[Zigurd]

> "Brownshirt gangs: no idea what this is"

That tracks.