[d3x]

This entire issue is crap.

I am a black programmer...

I have no college education, came from single family home blah blah womp womp.

I have launched 10+ projects for clients this year alone. I have 1 failed contract where I left because it just didn't work out.

When I had success it was not because I was black and when I failed it was not because I was black. Both when I have succeeded and when I have failed was never been treated like anything but an equal by my peers.

I personally thing that the NewMe accelerator is total crap and should not exit. What strategic advantage comes from going to a "black" incubator? I dont have a black startup because I dont have all black customers. The one thing this has managed to accomplish is to distract people from finding and solving huge problems and instead focus on some BS issue that has no value.

My only advice to "black" and other entrepreneurs is shut up, go code and make something awesome. The rest will take care of itself.

This entire issue is being exploited to get attention for Angela Benton and her new accelerator. I dont think its fair to cast a shadow over the awesome people I have had the opportunity to work with over the last 12 years in this field simply because someone wants to get some press at the expense of others.

... now back to coding ...

[ww]

The racism that I've come in contact with (in corporate settings at least) is towards people from India. Not people born here and of Indian descent, but people from India with Indian culture. It would probably be better to call it "culturism" or bias against a culture instead of racism. When you go on a contract and you see 20 employees 50-80% of them being from India and 0% of them in management or even team lead positions, that's an indicator. It's an even bigger indicator when all of said employees have been there for 5-10 years or longer and are willing to manage. The absolute smoking gun is when current the managers bring zero to the table (completely incompetent). These positions in large companies are often obviously filled with friends with no merit, technical know how, or leadership ability. As a side note I'm black as well, and I feel I know these biases when I see them.

[Retric]

I work at a large 20+K consulting firm and there is exactly one Indian on my current project, the female Indian project manager. None on the one before that, and before that one the project manager. It's a diverse world out there and while people blame persistent racism my first boss was a black man with a degree from standard and there is simple not a lot of people in that category. Not just for economic reasons but also because your talking about a smaller overall population.

There are many funnels in immigration and education but talking about them like they shape people is missing the point. It's a selection process and the kind of people that can jump though the right hoops are the people that make it to the other side. In 20 years you will see plenty of Indian middle management but you can expect to see yet another round of 'glass sealing' debate not because people can't get their but because so few parents knew how to set that trajectory in motion.

[redthrowaway]

I guess it depends on the company. I'm doing a co-op at Ericsson right now and my manager's Arab, my team lead is Indian, and my supervisor's a Chinese woman. The male/female ratio is probably 80:20 and the racial breakdown is something like 50% ethnic Chinese (1st/2nd gen), 30% Indian, and 20% white. All of these numbers are fairly representative of the makeup of the tech industry in Vancouver, so I can't say I've seen any prejudice or favoritism here.

[Duff]

Totally different situation.

In a large corporate setting with lots of dumb management, a majority of those Indians are going to be contractors, and a majority of them will be on work visas.

Why is that relevant? They are hired guns, who are supposed to go when the project ends. And they are exploited to the hilt by their staffing agencies.

Racist? I don't think so. Exploitive and amoral? Absolutely.

There are many examples of Indians leading technology businesses and managing technology departments in the US. In many ways, the Indian immigrants who get green-cards or citizenship are probably the best example of the mythical "melting pot" in today's society.

[ksolanki]

The probable reason why you see 50-80% Indians in the in the team, but few in management or team lead positions is that, they somehow put up with this bias, that they somehow are happy with what they get. Aren't there a majority of agricultural workers of Latino descent, often working at below minimum wage? Why? They put up with it, and are mostly happy to have the job. The fact is, many Indians, especially those who are "new" in the country, are happy to do what it takes, at the salary and position that they get, even if it is below market rate. Both sides are at fault, no doubt.

Then, of course, there are those who go out and take risk to do extraordinary things, like starting companies. There is no dearth of famous companies founded by Indians, is there?

[_b8r0]

It's like you've just described every major government contract site I've been on in the past 3 years.

[freemarketteddy]

</RANT>

Well I think you're right...but this "culturism" that you talk about has something to do with the fact that Indians from India are not inherently very good at managing people or software projects.In fact I would say that statistically Indians who have been educated in India are not good managers period.

I am myself an Indian and I have a bachelors degree from an Indian University.

In my experience working for corporate america,one of the things that irritates me most about Indian managers is that they will talk completely from their asses.They wont write a line of code and yet will make very heavy technical decisions and then when I disagree they will resort to micro-managing me instead of making an effort to understand my arguments.

I have repeatedly asked them to actually read the source and understand what I am talking about but they will relegate it back to me and ask me to send an email with a lengthy explanation later(They know I am not going to do that).

I have repeatedly pushed for DVCS adoption but apparently IBM Clearcase is a much better solution than github firewall.None of them (my Indian manager and his Indian manager and his Indian manager) have actually made an effort to understand DVCS till date.

Sometimes my manager has actually tried to argue that just because he has 13 years of experience in software he obviously knows more than me about iOS development and therefore his decision is obviously the right one.(The fact that he has never really written a line of Objective C is completely irrelevant.)

In fact when I apply for new jobs I try to make sure that I am not assigned to an Indian manager.

[rtperson]

There's a term for these tendencies: the Power Distance Index. (http://www.lessonsoffailure.com/developers/real-reason-outso...) The idea behind PDI is that leaders in some cultures expect, and even to an extent welcome, subordinates who question them. And there are other cultures where leaders expect obedience above all, regardless of any objective measure of correctness.

India is a high-PDI country. If you're taking orders from an Indian manager, for the most part they will expect you to keep your head down, shut up, tow the line, and do what you're told. This also partially explains Westerners' complaints about Indian subordinates: that they don't speak up, don't take responsibility, don't innovate. They have been very thoroughly taught not to. On the other hand, this also explains the at times amazing attention to detail -- if details are all you are allowed to control, you will control the living crap out of them.

[recursive]

Very interesting.

(PS: "toe the line" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toe_the_line )

[harichinnan]

It's not entirely true in Indian tech industry. Every year most companies lose up to 20 percent of their workforce because they move to higher paying jobs and better companies. This is a serious issue that managers are usually at the mercy of their talented engineers.

[ww]

Well remember I said the managers in these cases are incompetent (pointy haired, Dilbert types). A random person off the street would be better. The tech guy that knows the business and the software and has been working with said software for 10 years would certainly be better.

I've been working around people from India for 17 years now. I've known guys/girls from India that came here in the US in the early 80s. I've been in tech lead positions and have given evaluations for people from India on my team that should have been moved into leadership positions and they've been overlooked. This is how I know first hand that there is some kind of bias in many work settings.

I've seen this in the medical, defense, education, financial, and utility fields on the east coast, mid west, and in the southwest. FWIW I've not seen this at software companies.

[cosgroveb]

Well I think you're right...but this "culturism" that you talk about has something to do with the fact that Indians from India are not inherently very good at managing people or software projects.

It's not racism if it's true!

[troyastorino]

Hypothesizing that a trend could be explained by cultural differences is different than discriminating on race.

[beachgeek]

I am speechless. This has been the story of my life, and I am stunned that you know exactly whats going on.

[rorrr]

Extremely precise description of every large old company I've worked at.

[loso]

Because you have never experienced any racial problems in the high tech field means that there are none? Everyone else is lying about it?

Projects like the NewME accelerator exists because even if you "make something awesome" in a normal environment, getting attention is hard. You add to that being a minority and the road gets a little rougher. Not in every case but in a lot of them.

This isn't about black and white. This is about humans having natural prejudices even if they don't intend to. Nobody is claiming that the valley or the high tech field in general is full of racists. In fact the opposite is true. It is probably one of the more progressive job fields you will find. But that does not mean there is not a problem. There are biases in the field and one of them includes racial. Pointing it out does not mean everyone in the field is racist. They are just presenting one more problem for geeks to try and solve.

[watty]

I wouldn't be surprised if racism in the tech industry was more towards Indians.

[notauser]

There's certainly a lot of dislike for working with people who have strong accents, and the most commercially successful Indian technologists I have met have been the ones with the most westernised mode of speech.

Unfortunately some people take a fairly legitimate gripe (lack of easy communication) and pre-judge an entire group rather than investigating the skills and attributes of a specific individual.

[dholowiski]

I worked for 13 years doing phone based technical support. I can tell you that people with a strong accent are often seen as 'stupid'. I worked with several Indian co-workers and it wasn't unusual to have calls transferred to me (no accent) because people didn't want to talk to them. As a team lead I got to listen in to those calls, and it's amazing how badly one human being can treat another. There's the passive aggressive person who just keeps saying "i don't understand you". There's the person who says things like "Where am I talking to" "are you in india?" "Can I speak to someone from Canada" (we were all in Canada, same country as the callers). Then there's the people who would just rip in to the agent, questioning their intelligence, yelling at them and much more.

On the other hand, we would often have people call in who had strong accents, and the tech support agents would often judge the callers as 'dumb'. I earned a reputation of being a genius, not because I was a genius but because I'd actually listen to people and try to understand them (sometimes they were hard to understand) rather than being an asshole to them.

In short - it was very common for people on both ends of the phone to rationalize racisim with a hard to understand accent.

[tibbon]

To a certain degree, what you're saying is even true among people in the US from different regions here.

Put someone with a deep southern mountain accent and someone with a Brooklyn accent on the phone and they'll feel at odd with each other. Surveyed afterward, they will both probably feel the other is stupid and didn't understand them on simple things.

I myself remember my first experience with someone at a call center, who I can only assume wasn't in the US. I was calling Network Solutions in high school about a domain registration. The person on the phone I recall as having an Indian accent, which I didn't mind so much, but I did feel at odd with them when I needed to spell my first name (David) out to them using the NATO phonetic alphabet. It just struck me as so incredibly odd at the time that someone would potentially mishear or misspell the name David. However, I quickly realized that it was simply a cultural difference. I myself would probably get a common Indian name like "Sita" wrong. Was that Seeta? Seta? Seata? Site? Its only 4 letters, but I could screw it up for sure. I've since been more understanding of people at support lines.

Just as people often say that racism is ignorance, I do have to feel that this wasn't me being against anyone from India (as I actually knew very few people who maintained much Indian culture, language or accent where I lived at the time), but being ignorant and impatient with what was normal for them vs what was normal for me. Thankfully I learned.

[irahul]

> I needed to spell my first name (David) out to them using the NATO phonetic alphabet.

Did you just say "Delta Alpha..." or "D as in Delta, A as in Alpha"?

I can assure you the first one would confuse the hell out of most of the Indians(I am an Indian living in India).

Some of the NATO phonetic alphabets would complicate matters even further - Quebec, Zulu, Yankee. Zulu is a special one, considering Z isn't pronounced "Zee" in India(G is "Gee" and there is no "Zee") - it's called "Zed". So when you say "Zee" as in "Zulu", the support staff is going to have a hard time figuring out what on Earth was that. This is pure speculation - most likely support people undergo some training and they have a basic understanding of western accent and pronunciation.

The safer bet is simply saying the alphabets "Dee a vee eye dee", or better still use short, widely known words as mnemonics "D as in Doll, A as in Ant, V as in Van..."

I often have to resort to phonetic alphabets. Though sometimes it becomes problematic when the mnemonics I come up with confuse the support staff even more:

Me: "Dee..Ummmm Dee as in Dumbledore"

Support Staff: "????"

[rdl]

Anyone not understanding NATO phonetic alphabet has no business working in a call center (or using a telephone, in general), even if English is not his or her native language.

[tibbon]

Pretty sure I always go with D as in Delta, unless I'm on the phone with someone who I'm fully aware will know what I'm talking about (various friends, etc who will do the same thing).

They understood it well enough, but from my POV I was shocked, because never in my life did I have to spell my first name. I know in the US to always make a clarification of the spelling of my last name.

The normal line I give people in the US when they are looking up my account (perhaps at at bank) is, "My name is David Fisher, with no 'C' in Fisher" (since some spell if Fischer) and that normally does the trick.

You do make a good point however that just because the NATO phonetic alphabet is standard for NATO, doesn't mean it is something understood worldwide, anymore than I'd understand Kanji.

[jhamburger]

I'm not blaming them, racism is always unfair to the recipient but on projects I've worked on Indians have done absolutely nothing to combat it. By that I mean, they hang out together, they go to lunch together, they basically avoid any unnecessary communication with non-Indians. I ask them to go to lunch and I get a reaction like "um, we kinda go to lunch together." I understand that there are a lot of cultural barriers there, but people are naturally very social and fair or not, they aren't going to have as much trust and faith in people that they don't have a social relationship with.

[FraaJad]

Well, I can see that happening. Even within "Indian" groups, people tend to group themselves with people from same state/language. People from some states are known for almost hostile exclusion of people from other states, including neighbouring ones. I speak this from experience as an Indian living in the US.

As regards to lunch, many Indians are very selective about eating habits (for religious reasons). That prevents them from eating in meat-'contaminated' areas.

None of this excuses them from socialising however.. But, socialising with people you already know is easier than making new connections. Which is just lazy, IMO.

[JoeAltmaier]

I've taken the care to invite foreign engineers to dinner at my home at each job I take. In each case the comment is the same - "This is the first American home I've been invited into." Never mind they were 2, 5 or 10 years working in America.

So don't blame them entirely.

[Kuiper]

I think that this may in part be due to the fact that the idea of "inviting someone over for dinner" is beginning to erode away culturally. Some of my best friends have never been inside my home, and visa versa. I think this is a large part of why establishments like bars, skating rinks, coffee houses, LAN cafes, and court clubs are so big in most of the cities I've lived in: a lot of their business is driven (I suspect) by the fact that they provide a neutral socializing ground, more than the actual service that they provide. When I think of the idea of "taking someone to dinner," the idea of bringing them to my house never really crosses my mind.

I've never lived out of a city with a population of less than 100,000 so I suspect that the social dynamic might be somewhat different there.

[joebadmo]

I have never encountered racism, therefore there is no racism. And anyone who thinks they're being discriminated against is a lazy whiner.

[ellyagg]

Of course that's not the claim being made by your parent. The argument is about how widespread it is and its effects. I'm pretty sure most people would find his story strong evidence for one side of the argument, assuming they believe it. I'm also pretty sure most people will choose to believe it exactly to the extent it agrees with their predetermined bias.

As a white male living in a rural area as a kid and in metropolitan areas as an adult, and having a black best friend, my anecdotal evidence supports a more limited effect than is commonly claimed in pop culture. That is, to the extent that there is willful, systemic, malicious racism, an individual's self-reliance (why this is becoming a dirty word in our culture, I do not know) is significantly more powerful.

I respect people who think the system is flawed and want to dedicate their lives to making it more ideal, but otherwise I think it's healthier to believe your success comes from your own decisions. That's not literally true for ANY of us, but it's best to believe it. It's similar to the recent study which showed that children do best when they believe success is more dependent on how hard you work rather than what your IQ is...which is not the same as it actually being true that success is more dependent on how hard you work rather than what your IQ is.

[joebadmo]

This entire issue is crap.

...some BS issue that has no value.

My only advice to "black" and other entrepreneurs is shut up, go code and make something awesome.

This entire issue is being exploited to get attention for Angela Benton and her new accelerator.

It's easy to tout self-reliance when you're a white male. It's easy to overlook all the tiny advantages you get that accumulate in an invisible, insidious way. It's easy to see people bringing up the issue as whining.

It's hard to understand what it is to be someone else, what it means to struggle with others' perceptions every waking moment of every day in such a pervasive manner as to be incorporated into your very identity. It's hard. But we should all try.

Sometimes, self-reliance means putting your head down and doing the best work that you can do. Other times, it means finding other people with a common experience and taking collective action to actively change your circumstances. Sometimes it looks like a minority-focused startup accelerator. Sometimes it looks like the Civil Rights Movement.

If it looks like whining, probably the best thing to do is to try to refrain from meta-whining, and deeply consider whether the issue could be a real one, even though your own experience is different.

[jimbobimbo]

"It's easy to tout self-reliance when you're a white male."

"This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer..."

[joebadmo]

First sentence was in reply to ellyagg, who touted self-reliance, and self-identified as white male.

My selective quoting was in response to ellyagg's position that I was not accurately representing d3x's original comment in my original reply.

If the conversation is hard to follow, then you should read more carefully.

[product50]

I have lived for 25 years in US. Never encountered racism ever - am from South Asian decent. That is saying something. Of course - there will be some people who will be racist. US, after all has 300M people and it defies probability that it will not have any racists.

However, generalizing racists and saying racism exists based on these extreme edge case doesn't make logical sense.

[joebadmo]

Have you considered perhaps that you're the edge case?

I've lived in the US my entire life. I'm East Asian. I've encountered racism.

Given two persons of minority descent, one who claims to have first-hand experience of racism, and another who claims that racism is largely a myth, why would I believe the second over the first?

[throwawayday]

why would you believe the first over the second? It boils down to your outlook on life - if you're Eeyore, everything's a dark cloud.

[potatolicious]

Racism is an edge case?

I've lived in Toronto, Vancouver, Seattle, and now SF - all diverse places by American standards. And I've experienced racism at every. single. one. Not of the pitchfork-and-lynching variety, but racism nonetheless.

I want to live where you live, where racism is an extraordinary edge case.

[wallawe]

Good luck finding anywhere in the entire world where racism doesn't exist. To say it doesn't is ignorant. It's ingrained in our evolutionary traits to have tendency to group and divide whether it be over race, culture, political or religious beliefs.

Some people don't have the intelligence however to rationally overcome the natural inclinations toward whatever bias we may subconsciously harbor. This has been true for the entirety for human civilization.

What I CAN tell you though, is that reverse discrimination by creating "black only" beauty pageants, television stations, and now incubators is not the solution to the problem and will only cause further division.

[hackinthebochs]

It's not a solution to the racism or discrimination problems, but it is a solution to the low self-esteem and self-worth problem of being from a marginalized minority.

[hackinthebochs]

Downvoters: care to weigh in why you disagree? I expect more from HN readers.

Edit: nothing like a good race discussion to bring out the lurkers and trolls.

[maguay]

As an American caucasian male living in a small town in Asia, I can assure you racism is alive and well across the whole world. Live somewhere where you're looked down on for your accent, color of skin, and national origin, and you'll learn what racism feels like. Then go back to your home country, and you'll recognize the subtle racist remarks and discrimination that you would have never noticed before you'd experienced prejudice first-hand.

[dlikhten]

Boo @joebadmo!!!

I've seen it, some sexism actually. However those who are sexist/racist are easy to spot, they are just aholes in general. The one I knew was very easily spotted as every female member of the team complained about him in a month, followed by every male member just complaining how much of an ass he was.

[joebadmo]

I don't even know where to begin.

Almost my entire point was that your own experience is not universal. No one's is.

You admit that you've seen discrimination and that it's easy to spot. Why, then, would you assume that it's not a problem? And why would you assume that all discrimination is easy to spot?

If you've witnessed discrimination, but you're trying to stifle the voices that are trying to raise awareness of their situation, then you're part of the problem.

[tuxidomasx]

I would say that there could very well be strategic advantages to being part of a "black" incubator. Peer encouragement/validation, communication, shared experiences, etc. As I understand it, culture is a big part of any startup, and a culturally-oriented incubator could attract people who mesh well together.

I am also a black programmer, yet my experience has likely been a bit different. I've found considerable social and professional benefits to working and networking with people who look like me.

[wickedchicken]

> culture is a big part of any startup, and a culturally-oriented incubator could attract people who mesh well together.

This reminds me of Ellen Spertus's argument that certain women might get a better CS education from an all-girls school. The idea is an all-girl environment completely removes such impulses as "I don't want to answer this question and be 'that girl'" or any external signals that link being female with being non-technical.

[JoeAltmaier]

...and there is a terrible corrosive effect when perceived minorities are given a 'leg up' - that they are not really deserving/talented. Whether part of the hidden neurological bias mentioned, or even true, it means other capable people who happen to belong to that minority get a shadow cast on their accomplishments.

{German-austrian 4th-generation Iowan.}

[Rariel]

You are the exception and not the rule. It's great when things work out as they did for you but it's not the norm. Just because this has been your experience as a black programmer doesn't mean it is that of all others.

I also don't think its true that "This entire issue is being exploited to get attention for Angela Benton and her new accelerator." This issue would exist regardless of whether the NewMe accelerator existed, Benton is just bringing some press to the subject.

[eddie_the_head]

Hardly, I am another black programmer and I've had the fortune of working with other black programmers, whites, Asians, Polynesians, Hispanics and more. He is not the exception. Racism is just not a thing in the high-tech industry. If there are any negative vibes towards a person because of their background, it's only ever because of their "foreign-ness"; if for example they might have an accent. Even this is quickly brushed off wherever I've worked. High-tech doesn't care what color your skin is or where you grew up. The best hackers I've been honored to share a repository with have been from countries I've never been to in the former USSR and South America, all of varying ethnicities.

This is a false issue that is being propagated by someone to garner attention to their accelerator. This whole idea of a race-based fund for high-tech is repulsive to me. If there are black entrepreneurs out there in high-tech, what is wrong with applying through YCombinator and other established incubator programs if they need the coaching and funding to go to market? It's insulting to think that blacks cannot compete for whatever reason in a normal fund and have to go make their own one and then blame it on perceived "racism". Big cop-out card there.

[Rariel]

I've met many programmers that feel differently (as well as engineers in others disciplines ME, ChemE etc) but it is nice that you are another person who has been able to experience zero racism in the work place.

"Racism is just not a thing in the high-tech industry." I beg to differ. Saying racism is "just not a thing" in any sense isn't really realistic. Are there people using the n-word all the time? No. Are there people with bias they might not even understand or be aware of? Yes. . Also there is a huge difference between the world of strictly programming (doing it for other people's businesses) and the world of tech entrepreneuring. Those are two different worlds,they overlap a great deal but they are still different worlds. You encounter different issues and different sets of people you must interact with in different ways.

That said I don't think NewMe is necessary and agree Black start ups should apply to traditional programs. I think some sort of formalized mentoring network would be useful but aside from that I don't really see the point...it's also not an accelerator that invests money in it's startups from what I understand, so I don't really get the point. I still applaud Benton and the others involved for trying to do something.

[j45]

Maybe, brown / "arab" are the new blacks to get stares and all that.

[eddie_the_head]

I'm actually one of these brown / "arab" new blacks you speak of incidentally (I'm from Algeria) and I haven't had this problem. But I do not have an accent and I've sort of "integrated" well within American culture. I can see where someone who is not so well-integrated and comes with an accent might see some trouble, but if they can code with quality and work in teams well, all that goes out the window.

[jhamburger]

In my experience once most middle eastern/arab people are "integrated", people see their appearance as vaguely mediterranean and don't really think twice about it.

[Rariel]

I agree. I'd also add that I don't think that experience is the same as African-Americans. People do distinguish between middle-eastern/Mediterranean and African-American. At least in my experience.

[j45]

I too, seem to stand out a little to some people; some even call me a visible minority.

Even though I speak better english and command a larger vocabulary than most. English is my first of four languages.

I also dress well, drive well, dine well, know my music, have friends from many countries.

I once heard a saying you have to be twice as * to be * enough. Fill that in for any group.

[randomdata]

I have never even met the majority of my clients. I could be black, white, red, or blue for all they know. The colour of your skin may not be a choice, but how you decide to ingrate into the industry is.

A programmer's job is to observe constraints and find a solution given those constraints. Racism is just another constraint. It is a constraint that is not fair. It is a constraint that we should not have to deal with. But, given it does exist, should it stop a good programmer from doing well in the industry? I'm not so sure.

This industry in particular comes so many unique options for work environments. And there is presently so much demand that you can basically write your own ticket. We should definitely be working to stop racism, and all kinds of judgements of others, completely, but in the meantime there are options for those who find themselves affected by it.

[JulianMiller520]

The sheer arrogance. "It is ok people. I'm black and, speaking for all minorities, I haven't experienced it so every other minority is a lazy liar"

I'm black as well and though I haven't experienced racism in tech directly I understand why NewMe is a great option for some people. To the poster I would say respect other people's journeys and experiences.

[swah]

This would make a nice blog post...

[Causification]

Agreed. Unless it's supported by a legal framework, racism is a self-defeating phenomenon. Racist individuals deprive themselves of the benefits offered by the group toward which they are racist, therefore making themselves less likely to succeed. If anything, a person or group of people being racist should alert you, the observant seizer of the day, to an under-utilized resource and/or market niche.

So long as big brother isn't enforcing it; another person's stupidity can always be turned to your advantage.

[phillmv]

>Unless it's supported by a legal framework, racism is a self-defeating phenomenon.

It's more complicated than that. Substitute legal framework with 'cultural normative behaviour' and we end up at a different position.

I just highly doubt there's a lack of women or black people physically capable of being engineers.

[qeorge]

I think the GP's point still stands. Smart companies will have an advantage recruiting these engineers, because they have less competition, and so they will win. (Corollary: the quality of the team is the strongest predictor of success).

I agree. Anyone who would hire a worse employee because they don't like the other's {race,color,nationality,gender,sexual preference,...} is an idiot, and I wouldn't bet on their success.

That said, we definitely need some short term solutions too. "Evolution" isn't particularly helpful to those being discriminated against right now.

[adrianN]

The lack of women or black people in engineering isn't proof for their discrimination though. It could be that they simply choose to pursue different professions because their upbringing is different.

[Symmetry]

Companies doing discrimination arbitrage unfortunately don't do anything to help minorities who are discouraged from going into certain professions in the first place.

[shareme]

In corporate settings some of them banks I have come into contact with racism, sexism and age-ism against Blacks, Indians(both from India and from Native America), Jews, Mexicans, etc..the point of Feld's piece was that its alive in the infrastructure and only by shining the light of day on it will make it go away..

[ww]

Banks are another subject entirely: www.dartmouth.edu/~blnchflr/papers/finalrestat.pdf "We conduct an econometric analysis of loan outcomes by race and find that black- owned small businesses are about twice as likely to be denied credit even after controlling for differences in credit-worthiness and other factors."