[admissionsguy]

I dropped out of my PhD because I could not stand the pressure of having to do talks regularly. Even though I was pretty decent at it (I was told my delivery was fine and clarity was superb), and sometimes felt good ("powerful" for lack of a better word) while on stage, I would worry for months before every presentation, then basically get physically sick for weeks before, and take some weeks more to recover.

Then one poster I submitted got upgraded to a talk, which brought me over the tipping point, and I quit.

I keep wondering if I could have done more to desensitise myself to it, but the anxiety was never decreasing, if anything, it was getting worse each time. I tried therapy, medication, Toastmasters, martial arts classes and dance lessons (which became my hobby, incidentally), and even vocal lessons (since I was particularly self-conscious about my voice), all to no avail.

So now I have a co-founder to do all and any public speaking, and I do not plan to put myself in front of a crowd ever again. But I feel I'm missing a part of life by it.

[Syzygies]

Six weeks before my thesis defense, I gave a talk at MIT's combinatorics seminar on Grobner bases.

We came up with an abstract intended to attract computer scientists. I was a bit naive about complexity analysis. The computer scientists came, were quite generous and kind to me as a graduate student who didn't know, but they were out for blood when it came to protecting basic concepts.

I was asked to explain algebraic geometry to complete beginners, to set the stage for my talk. At the same time, an algebraic geometry seminar was to meet down the hall. The speaker was from the university that had just hired me. Two attendees drew this ridiculous conclusion that my efforts to computerize algebraic geometry might be the future. They convinced the organizers to postpone the algebraic geometry seminar so that they could attend my talk.

80 or so of the world's 300 experts in algebraic geometry showed up with nothing to do for an hour. Guess what they did? We had to move my room, so they could hear me explain algebraic geometry to complete beginners.

Yes I felt ill afterwards.

[pbronez]

Organizing an excellent event is hard. There's fundamental uncertainty about what each presenter will say, and what the audience needs to hear. The best you can do is try to think of a high quality theme, get good abstracts from your speakers, and cobble together an agenda tries to cater to your audience. From there, it's a crap shoot.

Don't beat yourself up. You were in a no-win scenario. Honestly, the best option might have been to go COMPLETELY off script. Admit to your audience that they know more than you about the core subject. Just give that to them. Then talk about why you find the subject interesting, and how it relates to your work. Maybe even open it up to a Q&A with the expectation that you'll look kinda dumb but learn a lot.

Of course, I've stayed far away from academia, so what do I know.

[Syzygies]

Yes. In the years since I've learned that it is better to go off script. Preparation is so one can react, like a tennis match.

After that trial by fire, I've been comfortable before audiences of a thousand multiple times. Once, asked how I became the math consultant for "A Beautiful Mind", I looked out and managed to sell "Every audience is an audience of one".

For anxiety, it helps to remember that public speaking is a cultural ritual. It's not about you, you're playing a role.

When one gives academic job talks, most professors in the room don't understand your subject. What they can tell is whether you listen to questions. How well you answer questions is everyone's best gauge as to how smart you are. If the people who know you are already on your side, the talk itself is a Macguffin. Be truly present at each question, consider it honestly.

[sheikheddy]

> Once, asked how I became the math consultant for "A Beautiful Mind", I looked out and managed to sell "Every audience is an audience of one".

Wait, are you Dave Bayer?

[tshanmu]

HN ftw

[pcurve]

I don’t know you but I can relate to the feeling. That’s still awesome and I’m sure you nailed it

[pyuser583]

Wow. I’m so sorry.

[enriquto]

> I would worry for months before every presentation, then basically get physically sick for weeks before, and take some weeks more to recover.

That was exactly me. Fortunately, my PhD advisor noticed the trend and solved it in a severe but functional way. Starting from my second year, I was assigned to teach calculus to first-year computer science undergrads (three groups of about 80 students each). It was absolutely terrifying. At the beginning I vomited, had diarrhea, anxiety, the whole pack. But since the schedule was so intense, somehow my body got used to it. After a couple of months, I had become desensitized to it, and actually started enjoying it.

It may be unusual, but my advisor coached me quite well on how to teach, and that helped me a lot. A couple of days before my first class, he asked me how was it going, and I told him that it was quite bad... then he asked me casually if I had already prepared my first class (of course, I had spent the entire summer preparing for it!), and to remind him what was it about, since it had been a few years since he last taught it. Then I told him the whole contents of the first session in about 20 minutes, even reaching for the blackboard to write a couple of formulas. After that, I said "the way I'm going to explain all that is...", and he cut me: "no! forget about your preparation. The informal explanation you just gave is actually a good first class, just repeat it a bit slowly and call it a day". I knew he was fucking with me just to calm me down, but this actually gave me a confidence boost.

When I had to speak at my first somewhat major conference venue, I had similar concerns, and he told me "remember the first course you taught? do exactly the same thing: explain your stuff to fellow scientists as you would do if you found them by the coffee machine".

> But I feel I'm missing a part of life by it.

Surely not! If you really don't like speaking in public, it's alright. There's plenty of other things that you are not doing, and that are not either "a part of life". Nobody can do everything.

[wolverine876]

> "no! forget about your preparation. The informal explanation you just gave is actually a good first class, just repeat it a bit slowly and call it a day". I knew he was fucking with me just to calm me down, but this actually gave me a confidence boost.

I don't understand why that's 'fucking with you'. Isn't that good, sincere advice?

[smitty1e]

One can quibble about the word choice, but the simple truth is that human interactions very frequently involve some sort of conscious/unconscious manipulation.

So one is better off to interact with people who are decent at that activity and seeking to build us.

Had my boss just yesterday close the office door and gently chide me about interrupting other people on the call. Best rebuke I've had in years.

[realityking]

I fondly remember the CMO taking me aside after I gave a presentation at a Company town hall (startup, ~300 people) and gently telling me I just made myself and the Marketing department look incompetent. I’m not completely bought into the whole radical candor thing but this was a great example of it working.

[geoduck14]

Was there and advice or direction associated with this talk?

[realityking]

Yeah, there was direct advice on communication style in this conversation. Just very candidly delivered.

[mromanuk]

Sounds sincere to me

[enriquto]

Yeah, in retrospect I agree it is good advice but I did not understand that immediately. Still, it helped me to see that teaching or giving talks should not be a "performance" but a honest act of communication.

[avg_dev]

This is a great story and I think well of your PhD advisor.

[reducesuffering]

Might be worth looking into a beta blocker if it's adversely affecting your life that much.

"Musicians, public speakers, actors, and professional dancers have been known to use beta-blockers to avoid performance anxiety, stage fright, and tremor during both auditions and public performances."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_blocker#Anxiety

[TaylorAlexander]

Might take some years to recover but I wonder if you might be able to ease yourself in to it on your own terms some time in the future. I’ve been slowly growing my YouTube channel over the course of years and I do it all on my own terms. If I try to increase my output it’s stressful and I do still fret about it, but at least I can always put it away. Some day I may try to use it for revenue but only if I’ve found a way to manage it comfortably.

[busyant]

Do you find that you give fewer/zero presentations now with your current occupation?

I ask because it seems like many of us still need to give presentations even outside of academia.

Hopefully, you're in a position where it's no longer affecting your health.

Also, was it the size of the audience? For example, are you comfortable presenting to a smallish group (e.g., < 10 people)?

In grad school, I used to memorize my talks (complete with pauses, "ums...", "uhhs...", etc.). I did this because I was paranoid that I would forget specific details. It took a while, but eventually I got comfortable with making presentation errors. I think my presentations got better as a result, too.

[admissionsguy]

I don't have to do any as a web development individual contributor contractor, nor have I had to do any as part of my own company so far. I am fairly certain I can avoid it for the rest of my life, but do not necessarily want to avoid it.

My anxiety scales with the audience size like it does for most people, but in a manageable way. For me, the overwhelming anxiety depends on how much the audience (or the venue!) reminds my brain of my middle & high school.

It's much less of a problem for me when the audience is older. I had no problem presenting/interviewing in front of a panel of PIs, for example, even got some praise for it, nor do I find job interviews particularly stressful. Presenting in front of other students was particularly difficult. It was really difficult if in addition the room resembled my old school classrooms (low ceiling, bright, particular chair design). It didn't help that absent venue information, I would always imagine the setting to be exactly that.

[busyant]

> It was really difficult if in addition the room resembled my old school classrooms

My opinion is uninformed here, but it seems like some kind of therapy (e.g., cbt) might be helpful.

Thank you for the conversation.

[teekert]

It's a shame you weren't able to finish the PhD without doing presentations. I think, depending on having an understanding prof, it should be possible.

A point in life comes where you have spend enough time being a generalist, trying to brush up on your weaknesses. Time to enjoy and sharpen your strong points. The only negative here are your feelings towards yourself. Why not embrace yourself as you are, and role with it. If anything, your life will be more enjoyable and who knows you may once realize you worried for nothing when you drop the worrying about the worrying.

Easier said than done of course ;)

[dilyevsky]

Used to perform live regularly in front of audiences of up to 100+ (piano). Never really got over it. In fact it got worse as I got older. The only thing that ever worked for me is have everything on muscle memory so I could basically plug my brain off. I heard people had good experience with beta blockers tho…

[jakobdabo]

Is it really required to do talks? Does that mean that, for example, people who can't speak (muteness and similar disabilities) can not become PhD?

[jurassic]

Public speaking is certainly expected. Accommodations might be possible for somebody with an obvious and documented disability like muteness, but most people just experience different levels of anxiety which is considered "normal" and something you have to get over. You have to realize the PhD isn't useful on its own; it's just an entry ticket to a community where you will be in continuous collaboration / idea exchange for decades. Really difficult to do that successfully if you have crippling anxiety. It's just not the right fit for everybody.

Full disclosure: I also quit my PhD, for different reasons.

[mattkrause]

If you were literally unable to give a talk, I suspect accommodations would be made for qualifying exams and thesis defenses; indeed, I would bet this is legally required under the ADA or something similar.

However, giving presentation is an important part of an academic career. As a grad student and postdoc, conferences expand your network beyond people in your lab and department. You might hope that your published work "speaks for itself", but people are people, and putting a face to a name seems to have value above and beyond the intellectual content. Later on, seminars and campus visits are important not only for disseminating your own work and building up a case for tenure, but also establishing collaborations and recruiting future grad students and postdocs to your group.

People certainly make do without giving many talks, but it usually makes things slightly harder and you might need to "hustle" in some other way to compensate: write exceptionally well, lean on colleagues to refer strong students, etc.

[derefr]

But can you just get someone else to give your talks for you? Or, to turn that around, can you make a career out of being another researcher's ghostwriter?

(Yes, presumably, they'd have to understand the subject just as well as you do for the inevitable question period. But maybe you're not bad at private mentoring, just public speaking...)

[raxxorrax]

I can understand this reluctance. For what its worth I don't like talks about programming. It often doesn't provide too much knowledge transfer beyond a very shallow level. A deep blog post is much more appreciated. Would be awesome to see changes that this form of publishing isn't neglected anymore.

[Traubenfuchs]

I feel exactly the same! This is why I stopped teaching.

I was always worrying myself sick even before classes with simple content that perfectly fit the time frame.

[bloqs]

Extraversion is a relatively plastic personality dimension

[mkl]

I don't think extroversion has much to do with it. I am very much an introvert but am totally fine with doing lectures to hundreds of people.

[moehm]

What is a 'plastic' personality dimension?

[derefr]

The parent commentor is not using any domain-specific jargon. They just mean the normal meaning of the abstract adjective "plastic": capable of being permanently deformed/bent/altered in a way that does not then return to baseline (contrast elastic). Conceptually derived from "plastic deformation" in physics: when you bend something enough that it doesn't bend back any more.

Usages of this sense of "plastic" appear all across the English language: brain plasticity; plastic surgery; a cancerous neoplasm.

[moehm]

Thanks, I wasn't aware of this connotation.

[raxxorrax]

Isn't it also in general an euphemism for something being graspable?

[bloqs]

Extro*