[ipatec]

I live in Belgium where we already have eID and SSO apps that work okish. But I fail to see the need for an EU wide ID. I don't think most EU citizens use services from other EU countries than the one they live in. Not services where they need to ID themselves. How much of the population would be in the category needing something like this?

I'd say this should be left to the national Governments.

[michieldotv]

As a Belgian having worked in Denmark, my access to Danish e-government services through NemID was revoked pretty soon after I left the country.

This was quite a frustrating experience. Some time after leaving the country I got e-mails saying that SKAT, the local tax authority, had documents/messages for me to read on the secure message platform eBoks.

However, try as I might, I was unable to convince anyone to restore access since I was no longer a resident. I agonized quite a bit over this since I dreaded inadvertently being a fraud.

It would have saved me a lot of grief if the Danish e-gov services would have federated with Belgian and other EU identity services.

Edit: Forgot to say this is something The Netherlands already does pretty well. Dutch e-gov services, or at least those from Belastingdienst federate with many European idenity service providers including Belgium. Great for cross border workers.

[jeroenhd]

The various authentication services are already supposed to integrate through EIDAS but I don't know how well that works yet. I'm seeing the button to use it on more and more government login pages so I think it's getting picked up more.

As far as I know, the Dutch government has been pretty slow in their EIDAS implementation, even (nearly?) missing some deadlines, maybe the Belgian government has a similar problem?

[NicoJuicy]

In Belgium, we have several different regions ( Flemish, Brussels and Wallonia)

For some integrations with Wallonia, we are currently forced to use the federal integration, since their implementation hasn't even started yet :(

You are correct about eidas, it seems to be handled by the federal government currently, but there's not much documentation on it ( Belgium) and i have seen some applications integrating that way. So i suppose the issue is documentation and discoverability.

And the partial conflict of interest with itsme

[jeroenhd]

Belgium with its four governments is quite a weird edge case on many aspects of international standardisation. I don't don't much about the Belgian systems other than that there are several, but theoretical Belgium could make four systems work separately to authenticate abroad with the right federal setup.

Like is the case with my own government, I don't have very great expectations of Belgium's federal government and their IT projects. I'd wish countries could just share their implementations with other governments. Hell, I believe any code developed with public money should be open source for the benefit of everyone, but governments aren't a fan of that because companies charge more for developing software in the open.

[NicoJuicy]

Some source code of the Flemish government can be found on GitHub fyi

[wdb]

Problem with e-gov services is actually getting your DigiD account. I have been trying for many years without luck and still don't have it

[throwaway473825]

> I'd say this should be left to the national Governments.

As a Swede, I strongly disagree with this idea. My country is essentially a "democratic oligarchy" with a wealth inequality similar only to Russia.[1]

The current eID system in Sweden is a private oligopoly run by, amongst others, the Wallenberg family and a previous prime minister. This oligopoly is used to stifle competition.[2]

Since the politicians are so deeply involved in the banking sector,[3] the only real hope of change is that a higher power takes more control.

[1] https://www.ft.com/content/747a76dd-f018-4d0d-a9f3-4069bf2f5... [2] https://www.realtid.se/konkurrens-storbankerna-har-nekat-fin... [3] https://www.expressen.se/dinapengar/toppsossarna-som-tjanar-...

[TacticalCoder]

> Since the politicians are so deeply involved in the banking sector,[3] the only real hope of change is that a higher power takes more control.

This is typical of a certain political mindset: too big of a state ain't working, but surely an even bigger state shall work. This time, believe us!

The answer is not "more of what doesn't work". The answer is less.

[LunaSea]

The higher power you are talking about is even more of an oligopoly with only the Commission having any decision power.

[captaincaveman]

> the only real hope of change is that a higher power takes more control

Odin?

[CryptoPunk]

>>the only real hope of change is that a higher power takes more control.

A more durable solution would be to move. If sovereignty is ceded to that higher power, and that higher power subsequently becomes corrupt, your range of options significantly narrow.

[evanb]

It'd be much easier to move if their ID and all of their documents were available to other governments in an easy-to-use compatible way. If only there were some sort of bloc-wide digital wallet...

[throwaway2048]

Name a country where political leadership isn't intertwined tightly with banking and finance.

Somalia maybe? But i doubt it.

[Jiocus]

For someone who makes use of the free movement within the EU for, jobs and residence, having a common system would be very useful.

Currently, moving to another member state would require multiple steps to getting access to eID services in that country. Such as requesting (and pay for) a conventional national ID, in order to set up an eID that can be used for banking and identification in that country alone.

I'll add that my experience is based on moving within EU in the Nordics, which historically promote seamless free movement between those countries that often exceed the goals set by the EU.

[ipatec]

We're far from that. The gap between countries is big. Just to mention Belgium's example despite having an eID, you can't even change your address online in most communes and you need to physically present yourself and demand the address to be changed. About half of the EU countries don't have eIDs. Also we're talking of less than 5% of EU population (some figures I've seen are close to 3%) working in a different EU country than their own. do we really need to implement such a system that comes with major risks? given that it benefits such a small percentage of people?

[toyg]

The point is not just what is there today, but what we want for tomorrow.

In the US, it's normal for people to move to a different state to attend university, and then from there often to a different state again. Something like 1% to 2% move each year to a different state [0], which means in 10 years more than 10% of people will have done that. Some cross state borders multiple times in their lives. This is what we want to achieve, because it fuels economic growth and removes obstacles to happiness. (It's also, in a way, a restoration of what we had pre-Nation-State, when people were basically free to settle anywhere they wanted; but that's beside the point). Making the process of moving across the continent as smooth as possible is a Good Thing.

I would also move a point on terminology:

> working in a different EU country than their own

People don't own countries, they are born into them. (This is not just a pedantic remark - I think it's important that we move on from XIX-century nationalistic terminology if we want to achieve progress.)

[0] https://www.mymovingreviews.com/move/how-often-and-why-ameri...

[pjerem]

> In the US, it's normal for people to move to a different state to attend university, and then from there often to a different state again.

European Union is not a federal government like the USA but a union of independent countries.

In Europe it’s normal to live your entire life in the country you were born. Of course you can move wherever you want whenever you want but it’s never needed because there is 99% odds that your state have what you need (specific university, companies offices …)

Since Europe have really poor democratic control and power structure as of today, we are far from a federal Europe.

Even European policies like RGPD are always enforced locally at country level, there is no such thing as European government.

[Jiocus]

> Since Europe have really poor democratic control and power structure as of today, we are far from a federal Europe.

I don't agree, partly because I don't share your view that democratic control and structure is "poor". Mainly because trying to flip the tables and redefine the goal and aspirations of the EU is a bit far fetched, as it doesn't even include becoming a federal Europe.

> Even European policies like RGPD are always enforced locally at country level, there is no such thing as European government.

That is by design, not a mistake.

[pjerem]

You read my post like a criticism of EU, which it isnt

> I don't agree, partly because I don't share your view that democratic control and structure is "poor".

Current democratic control is mostly sufficient for what the EU is today : a union of independent countries. But this control is not enough at all if we wanted the EU to become a government with executive power.

> That is by design, not a mistake.

I never implied it was a mistake, neither that it was a bad thing.

[toyg]

1) The fact that we are far from a federal government doesn't mean we'll always be such.

2) I think you overestimate the involvement of the US federal government in law-enforcement across the country. A lot of (most?) laws are actually passed and enforced at state level, with the FBI only getting involved in the worst situations or where cross-state cooperation is necessary. California alone has tons of gdpr-like laws that it sets and enforces independently. There is an entire US political culture based around "state rights" that constantly pushes for having a looser federal structure that looks very much like what the EU is today.

3) it's not like they don't have universities in Minnesota or Nebraska, a lot of people sticks around where they were born. The difference is that the ones who don't, find it easy enough to relocate. This helps creating world-beating industrial districts like Hollywood, SF, Houston, New York, etc etc - because they can attract the best of the best among 400m people.

100 years ago people rarely moved from a village. 50 years ago they rarely moved from a city. Now they rarely move from a country. See where it's going?

[pjerem]

> 1) The fact that we are far from a federal government doesn't mean we'll always be such.

Maybe, and I'm not even against the idea. But it would have nothing to do with European Union (the current entity)

> 2) [...]

I'm not an US expert, and I mostly have the same picture as you. I don't see what you are trying to prove ?

> 3) [...]

I never said that one system was better than the other, just that they are different with different strengths and different weakness but that migrating from one to the other is extremely difficult and probably require creating new entities. I totally can imagine an European Federation but I don't see it being the same entity as the European Union.

[foldr]

>People don't own countries, they are born into them. (This is not just a pedantic remark

It doesn't really succeed as a pedantic remark, because 'their own' doesn't denote ownership. For example, here is a sentence in a BBC news article that I found by googling:

"Even his own boss said Andrew Gilligan, the BBC reporter at the heart of the Hutton Inquiry, 'paints in primary colours rather than something more subtle'".

This sentence does not suggest that Andrew Gilligan owns his boss.

[adrianN]

> Something like 1% to 2% move each year to a different state [0], which means in 10 years more than 10% of people will have done that

Or it's always the same people who move a lot.

[mschuster91]

> Some cross state borders multiple times in their lives. This is what we want to achieve, because it fuels economic growth and removes obstacles to happiness.

On the other hand, people are forced to uproot and discard their entire social support network - family, friends and others - multiple times in their lives. This does not only negatively impact happiness, but also has severe side effects and associated costs!

This can range from not having a place to crash (or a source to borrow money from) when getting priced out of a home or losing your job, but also having to waste money on childcare, family meetings / events being more expensive because people are spread all over the country and similar problems. And for the elderly, they are dumped in care homes with substandard but expensive care instead of being around their families in their final days. Call me old-fashioned but I find this disgusting.

And I didn't even touch the topic if this uprooting of people is detrimental to their mental health, especially for children - I would not be surprised if the rise of depression and other MH disorders can be linked to being constantly on the move in childhood!

The worst net negative for society as a whole is that enforcing mobility creates a massive concentration of people in urban areas (where rents explode and traffic becomes untenable) on one side and "left behind" rural areas on the other side where population erosion only leads to bitterness and erosion of trust in democracy itself, and any investment in infrastructure or life quality becomes prohibitively expensive.

We have seen the culmination of decades of neoliberalism in the rise of nationalist demagogues across democracies worldwide. We as humanity need to take a step back, cool down and ask ourselves if what we are doing is actually positive for society.

[toyg]

Being an EU migrant myself, I know the impact of all this very well. Every day I wake up hoping my parents are still healthy, because caring for them will soon be a massive problem. And still, chances are that sticking around my hometown, as beautiful as it is, would have doomed me to a much worse life - and not because it's been "left behind" in any way, but because I simply don't match the culture in very significant ways.

Obviously nobody should be forced to move. Nobody is "enforcing mobility" in Europe; they did in the past though, when Mussolini literally sold Italian labourers to half the planet and the UK shipped convicts to the colonies. The good ol' times often weren't that good. What we need is to provide all the freedom we can, and let people look for happiness wherever they see fit.

[mschuster91]

> and not because it's been "left behind" in any way, but because I simply don't match the culture in very significant ways.

I'm simply going to assume on a stretch you're either on the LGBT+ spectrum or socially progressive, please forgive me if I'm wrong.

I disagree with you on the "not left behind" part: the "rural flight" aka all young people fleeing to urban areas as soon as they possibly can has made rural areas "left behind" socially, because the ones who stay behind objectively see that the young people are fleeing, but instead of placing the blame on politicians who did jack shit to keep rural areas liveable (e.g. by providing high speed internet and public transport), many of them resort to blaming "the gays" for "corrupting their children" and similar - which in turn is even more incentive for those few youth that remain to flee. It's a vicious circle.

[eecc]

Well since it's a greenfield project for many countries it might make sense to build a continent-wide solution rather than let each country cobble together their own incompatible platform?

Besides, it's not only for intra-EU Digital Nomads but also for business operations beyond national borders; reducing the overhead improves accessibility from the less developed countries to richer markets.

[Jiocus]

> We're far from that. The gap between countries is big. Just to mention Belgium's example despite having an eID, you can't even change your address online in most communes and you need to physically present yourself and demand the address to be changed.

I see. Here in Finland electronic services has been widely implemented and very successfully so. I haven't been required to show up in person for anything in quite some time (altough I sometimes have). Government bodies are also very keen to inform about and push for the e-services available. Especially in these pandemic times, which I believe further incented the long tail - if there was one - to catch up and offer self-service online.

I belive Sweden is as far if not further than Finland, but I wouldn't know(!) because the ID and eID was a hassle I didn't cope with the last time I lived there ;) Thing were fine anyway, "because EU, Nordics".

[dariosalvi78]

In Sweden the digitalisation of services is quite advanced, although there are still many things that you need to do via post. I cannot compare with Finland, but I can compare with Spain and the UK where I have lived and worked and probably Sweden is one or two steps ahead. The only gotcha is that you need to be inside the system and have an active BankId, otherwise you're a pariah.

[lowdose]

Finland is also the only country that made rational choices in the setup of frequency auctions. Maybe better infrastructure delivers superior digital implementation of government structure because actual equal access to internet speed is guaranteed.

[jkukul]

> Also we're talking of less than 5% of EU population

I agree, at first glance it seems like the global approach is an overkill.

I think it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem though.

Is the global eID/eWallet an overkill, because we're already at the peak of the within-EU movement of people?

Or, is the burden of switching countries too big and this prevents people from freely moving within the Union when looking for opportunities?

IMO it's the latter.

[ipatec]

I agree the burden of switching countries is too big. But as a share of that burden the beaurocracy of getting a new residence would be somewhere at the bottom. The biggest burden of switching to a new country within the EU would be language, culture (there's a lot of things in common but as many differences too) and family/friends. I did change country 2x and my biggest worry has always been first securing a new job. I never cared about the beaurocracy because I knew it will be sorted out sooner or later once I move.

[martimarkov]

For me has always been the admin part. I don’t care particularly about the job and culture. I’m actually excited to try something new. It’s just a lot of documents to move and I’m bad at using paper. :D

[bojan]

How many people in Belgium used an eID, or thought it's a good idea, in the first year? Were there privacy concerns, etc? I assume people were asking the same things as you are now.

In the Netherlands you can change your address in every municipality, using our DigiD system. Nowadays you can also use the European system to log in.

And don't forget, while 3% may sound insignificant, it is still over 13 million people.

[sammorrowdrums]

The risks are significant, but it doesn't logically follow that by removing a barrier you are only helping the people that were already OK with getting over the barrier. I think the issue is that there are still a lot of hurdles that regarding residence, tax and local services that will need to become easier still for this to have a large impact. Language and local friends / family connections are still significant barriers, but I guess the EU could eventually resolve most other issues. A big one would be making tax returns for partial years in different countries easier, which in fairness having an EU wide eID does help with. Requiring and allowing accounts to offer full EU coverage would also probably help. The friction needs to be below tolerable levels for enough people to see the full benefit manifest.

As anecdata if I had to get VISA and only temporary right to remain I would probably have not moved to Netherlands, and it has genuinely stopped me considering moving to America.

As a British / Irish citizen I'm acutely aware that there are now new barriers to non-eu British citizens, and that'll impact how many people move around Europe from UK. Especially people who cannot afford to navigate the additional costs and bureaucracy, or who are scared of risking family security with temporary stays etc.

[mlok]

I would say that if you change a physical address it makes sense to be there in person to prove it. This could be seen as a kind of security/verification feature.

[telesilla]

Some countries confirm it by sending a document to the address and you must respond with the provided code. Seems more secure than being present in an office?

[thequux]

Belgium checks this by sending a police officer to your address at a time you're likely to be home (~7:00 on a weekday evening, Saturday morning, or the like), regardless of whether you changed your address at town hall or online. The only reason more places don't introduce such features is that it's all done on the municipal level and not all municipalities have the same priorities.

[ClumsyPilot]

I was recently in person to confirm my address in UK and they made a typo and placed me on an address that doesn't exist

[tchalla]

> Just to mention Belgium's example despite having an eID, you can't even change your address online in most communes and you need to physically present yourself and demand the address to be changed.

I don't see why this should be done online. The registration/change of address requires a proof. Many services like bank accounts, pensions, tv tax etc. are linked to one's registration address. A one time physical presence (or a similar variant) is a reasonable tradeoff between verification and convenience. You create a meaningful hurdle and make people liable for their statements. Convenience is not the only metric to decide what should be done online.

[JW_00000]

In Belgium changing your official address is actually a three-step process:

1. You notify your new local council of the change of address.

2. A police officer visits your new home to check whether you actually live there.

3. Your official address is updated in the government's records and on the ID card.

Step 2 takes place in your home; step 3 requires you to physically go to the town hall because the information on the eID card needs to be updated. But step 1 should be doable online but isn't in every municipality. However, I think this is more a problem of every municipality doing this on their own rather than using a shared system. Also, the frustrating part is not that you need to go to the town hall, but that it has very limited and inconvenient opening hours and (in larger places) often long waiting times.

[Mauricebranagh]

Sounds like make work for cops to me.

[rpastuszak]

I agree, but you have to start somewhere though. As much as fixing the issue you mentioned would make eIDs more useful, having eIDs in the first place would give us more reasons to tackle this and similar problems.

[b112]

Why do you have to start somewhere? Why is it a requirement to have eID?

Because we can is not a reason. This is the same reason we have global warming. We can build gas burning cars, so we should, without thinking of the consequences.

Of what use is eID, when no one can secure anything network connected? When all eID will be subverted, stolen, misused, making the same useless? And meanwhile, causing endless misery for those experiencing the loss of privacy, the consequences of identity theft, abuse by foreign powers, and more.

On top of this, I absolutely don't need it easier for a state to track me. Now every time I show my eID, the state gets pinged to validate it?

No thanks!

[ClumsyPilot]

"This is the same reason we have global warming"

Thats escalated quickly...

"he loss of privacy, the consequences of identity theft, abuse"

You are like 15 years late to the party, you can easilly buy/scrape/find enough information to get credutcards in sone poor sucker's name from the facebook and experian data leaks.

[NicoJuicy]

This will change very soon depending on the region.

Burgerprofiel has recently gone live ( because of Covid) after a long beta.

It was used for your "vaccinatie aanvraag".

Wallonia and Brussels are long from ready.

[b112]

And there you have it ; risks. No one on the planet has been able to ever, and I mean ever, lock down data when connected to the internet, from hacking.

Ever.

If you have not been hacked when specifically targeted, it only means your data is not worth the cost/profit. Pre-zero days abound, firewalls will be bypassed, and worst?

People will be bribed, coerced, scammed, tricked.

There are only two options:

1.. Absolutely zero Internet access for anyone working on said computers. No mobile phones allowed in the building, no machine with internet access in the building, faraday cage around the entire building, etc...

Yes, no email.

Nothing.

2. Paper

And of course, the above with physical access controls, and scans / searches.

The real fix for all identity theft, is to make it a crime, and a serious one, including mandatory jail time for all CxO level execs (on the premise of gross negligence) for obtaining any data on individuals via illicit means.

And that has to be world wide.

[scrollaway]

The EU wants it to be as smooth and painless as possible to go from one EU country to another. If you see it under that lens, this moves makes a lot of sense.

Such a service would be useful for me for example: a french living in Belgium with relatives in Greece.

[admissionsguy]

Absolutely, right now it's often incredibly difficult to establish residence in another EU country. If you move to Sweden, for example, it can take over half a year [1] before you can access government services, banking, healthcare, or even much of online shopping.

[1] https://www.thelocal.se/20210510/my-first-visit-to-the-swedi...

[CogitoCogito]

I'm Swedish living in Sweden, but lived most of my life in the US. I too had many issues with this sort of thing. Frankly it's a national embarrassment. At the very least I think that Skatteverket shouldn't be allowed to assess any taxes from someone that hasn't been assigned a personnummer. Not even retroactively. Maybe then they'll have at least a little incentive to do their job.

But really this just makes me sad that cash is going away. It provided some ways to work around the system, but with so few people accepting it, you're just kind of the mercy of the bureaucracy. And good luck ever convincing common Swedes it's an issue when they've always lived in the system. They only see it as something that works so well, when it is basically broken for all newcomers.

[photonios]

Really? I moved from the Netherlands to Romania a few years ago and all I had to do was register for residency at the immigration services. That took about 15 minutes. I opened a bank account the same day. Healthcare was also easy once I was employed.

[dariosalvi78]

You can survive, but most online services depend on the availability of a fiscal number, which sometimes takes ages to come especially if you are not employed. Once you're in the system everything becomes smoother. An EU-wide system would be absolutely great for those coming to live here from other EU countries.

[piokoch]

When I rent a car I hate that some random person takes my id and xero copy it, then puts that copy on a pile of papers.

I would prefer if it worked the way "my id" works in Poland. When someone wants to confirm my identity, I am getting redirected to a "my id" provider (typically a bank I have account in), I log in, I see what data are required (for instance my age) by the data requestor and I am done.

Everything is recorder who was checking which data, when and why. If there is some leak, it is easy to find who should be blamed.

I am not a big fan of EU in its present shape, but if EU would make all countries to agree for some sane standard of identification in a secure, privacy preserving way, it would be definitely beneficial.

[dvdkon]

Ideally those requests would also include a "deleted after" date. If such a thing was implemented and trustworthy (kind of hard, admittedly), it would make me a fan of an EU-wide eID.

[mhitza]

That would make definite sense and should be straightforward. Instead of sharing your data, you would generate a certificate with an expiration period with which they can access your personal data stored in the system. Ideally this would be short lived and require periodic regeneration.

[kuschku]

Having a unified way to e.g. verify the age of someone without getting their personal data would simplify some services (e.g. youtube) which currently require payment information or a photo of a physical ID and 3 days.

The german eID (and bank cards) already contain a way to sign whether or not the holder of the card is >16 or >18 without revealing anything else (e.g. for cash-payment at cigarette dispenser machines)

Similar functionality being available in a unified way across the whole bloc is something few other countries have done yet and would drive innovation

[ipatec]

Why would you need an unified solution? Why not leave it to the national governments and Youtube or whomever can personalise their checks based on your location.

[kuschku]

Implementing a functionality for e.g. the danish national ID with a few million users, or Luxembourg, or Austria, isn't worth it.

So you'd have support for France, Germany, maybe Netherlands, and that's it.

With an EU-wide ID, the smaller countries profit significantly, and startups can integrate and use the functionality easier.

[gostsamo]

Because it will work for everybody everywhere the same way, which is part of creating a common market, instead of common mess.

[cygx]

> Why would you need an unified solution?

To facilitate freedom of movement within the bloc.

[unionpivo]

Because they would implement for 5 of the biggest EU countries and left the rest of us behind.

Spottify advertised itself in EU for half a decade or more, but has been available in my country for less than a year.

[anoncake]

Because interfacing with 27 different ID solutions instead of one is a waste of effort and most companies wouldn't do it?

[sam_lowry_]

The underlying standards are already international. And their production is spanned across the world.

[dariosalvi78]

I have lived and worked in 4 European countries and there are always things that you need fix even years after, for example for taxes or pensions.

I currently need to maintain digital IDs for Italy, Spain, the UK and Sweden, plus different implementations of those depending on banks/services. Add the complexity of phone numbers that are no longer valid and / or services that do not allow foreign numbers / addresses (more than you think, especially with companies).

I would LOVE to have one single ID system to rule them all (supposing it's VERY secure).

[izacus]

> I live in Belgium where we already have eID and SSO apps that work okish. But I fail to see the need for an EU wide ID. I don't think most EU citizens use services from other EU countries than the one they live in. Not services where they need to ID themselves. How much of the population would be in the category needing something like this?

Is there reason why this isn't used because noone needs it or because it's too inconvenient to use because we don't have such a system?

EU also didn't do a lot of commerce cross-borders until Schengen, Euro and other agreements made such commerce significantly easier and more viable.

[dividedbyzero]

This could be a fantastic thing unless the EU apparatus manages to botch this, if only because some governments otherwise wouldn't make any progress in this regard in the foreseeable future, and that's painful not just for highly mobile people, but for local residents as well. I'd wager a guess that this is largely aimed at countries like Germany, large parts of which still rely 100% on lots and lots of paper-pushing for everything, and where, especially for non-citizens in rural areas, even the most basic services can be a tremendous hassle.

[fy20]

I live in Lithuania and they have an electronic ID system which is shared with Estonia and Latvia. You need to use it to access most government websites and utility services, so it's pretty much mandatory unless you want to go to an office and do things in person.

You can sign up directly through the service if you are a permanent resident of either of those countries. Although I was an EU citizen, I was not a citizen of these countries, so to be able to sign up I had to open a bank account - which I don't use, as I already have one in my home country. Opening a bank account was also harder than it should be, if you are a permanent resident you can do it online, but as I was a temporary resident - even though I had a Lithuanian issued ID card and personal code - I had to go to a bank to do it in person.

So is such a system really needed? Not really, but there are many arbitrary barriers in place that make freedom of movement harder than it should be. Systems like this should make it fair, and stop countries from discriminating (purposely or not) against citizens of other EU countries.

[kome]

"I don't think most EU citizens use services from other EU countries than their own."

yes, but it's so common to expatriate nowadays, also for short periods. so it would be nice to have a digital ID thing to deal with different administrative stuff, in different countries...

[ipatec]

only 17/448 (~4%) million EU citizens work in other country than their birth one. expatriating is not as common as you'd think living in a major EU city.

[rpadovani]

13M work, 17.9M live. [0]

However, ~1M goes back every year, so the affected people are more than the ones _currently_ living abroad.

Moreover, there are services that also intra-EU tourists can benefit from: - buying products >18 y.o. at automatic machines - simplifying buying drugs at pharmacies (we have EHIC, but it doesn't cover not-urgent care) - having fast track at airports without having an EU passport (in many countries people have an ID but not a passport) - easier lookup for police during random checks

[0]: https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=738&langId=en&pub...

[izacus]

Did you really just use the word "only" in relation to 17 million people? Are issues 17 million persons somehow beneath your notice just because they're a smaller part of some arbitrary selected whole?

[kalleboo]

If you reduce that fraction it's close to 1/25. I know more than 25 people, and indeed I know several EU citizens who work in a different EU country.

[benhurmarcel]

4% of the population is a massive amount of people

[JI00912]

They're trying to create a single country out of the EU and this is a step in that direction.

[ipatec]

do people want that? whenever there was a referendum on an EU constitution or anything of that sort, it got rejected.

[Closi]

The EU as a broader organisation wants that, and over time there has been a transfer of power from member countries to Brussels.

[toyg]

Referenda are routinely misrepresented in propaganda during debates, and often become proxies for unrelated issues and malcontents (brexit, anyone?). In practice, when you discuss actual issues, pro-Union sentiment is more widespread than reported, and most people agree that "it makes sense" to travel in the direction of closer integration. Even the issues where we kinda "agreed to disagree", like on electric plugs, there is constant moaning as soon as one moves across borders.

[JI00912]

Are you sure? Because I seem to be bombarded with pro EU propaganda from every angle I can think of. None of it ever has any sources of course.

[JI00912]

For some reason we never see any polls, just opinion pieces, but I'd wager that

(1) people think cooperation is a good idea

(2) and they also want to keep their own countries and identities

Once we start moving towards a single country, the inevitable question becomes, which rules and values should people follow? Which country gets to assert its way of life on the others? Or perhaps the virtual state known as the "EU" should assert its own values (whatever they may be)?

Now imagine expanding the EU to Turkey. Can we change their legislation to be more liberal? Or should the EU countries follow the hard line authoritarian islam that Erdogan pushes? No one is willing to change. And no one has to as long as the EU stays as a form of cooperation between nations.

If the EU pushes towards a single country, power struggles over values will follow.

[anoncake]

Turkey isn't allowed to join in part because democracy is a shared value of the EU. In fact there are mechanisms to suspend the membership of a country that regressed into authoritarianism, they just don't work.

[rsynnott]

The Lisbon Treaty was, in practice, a repackaging of the earlier "EU Constitution". In general, people seem fine with the EU behaving more like a single country, as long as it doesn't _represent_ itself that way. Most people, say, don't have a problem with the Working Time Directive (which is quite a country-ish thing to do; there are actual countries with less unified employment rules than the EU) but would be a lot less comfortable with cosmetic stuff (like calling the Lisbon Treaty a constitution, even though it clearly is one).

[anoncake]

The EU constitution was approved in half the referendums that were held. Also, opposing a concrete constitution does not mean opposing European unification in general.

[JW_00000]

Who are "they"?

[JI00912]

Read the thread from the beginning...

[JW_00000]

I still don't understand. And I mean this genuinely. Except for Guy Verhofstadt, I haven't heard any politician talk about creating a single country out of the EU for years. I'm pretty sure most EU politicians have shelved that plan definitively.

[nick2k3]

As an italian recently relocated to Belgium, I really wished I could use my italian eID for some very basic stuff like checking your covid-test result (you cannot access it if you don't have a GP, and you cannot have a GP if you don't have a national number, and you don't have a national number if you don't first register at the city hall) or interacting with institutions.

The procedure to obtain a eID is solid enough that the states should really leverage all the work done by another state to verify who you are etc, and allow you to interact with institution in a safe way.

IMHO it is one of the best things which could really define us as Europeans.

[Haemm0r]

Same for Austria: It is called "Bürgerkarte" and is a requirement for some government services, e.g. accessing health records and medication online, electronic signing of petitions,...) Currently there is a mobile app and the possibity to use the smart card with a reader. [1]

According to [2] the Austria eID is already valid EU-wide.

[1] https://www.buergerkarte.at/en/

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_electronic_signatu...

[arc-in-space]

This argument seems exactly backwards to me. If working abroad or using foreign services is difficult due to bureaucratic incompatibilities, then of course less people will do it. Anecdotally, I've certainly used foreign services where I had to ID myself and happily welcome any change that makes movement easier.

There will always be irreconcilable language differences and people do have a preference for staying in their birthplace, but that is no reason to not improve things.

I'm more worried about the EU actually implementing this well, but time will tell.

[NicoJuicy]

Eid is handled by an formal contractor and it's kinda ridiculous ( + Java based). We are currently checking options to circumvent that.

Itsme is really expensive to use ( private for profit company that is being pushed)

Okish is the right word ;), but progress is on the way.

[elric]

eID and okish in the same sentence? Yikes. It's a terrible experience for me. It doesn't work well on non-Windows operating systems. It doesn't work at all on many operating systems. Which is silly, because it's just a smart card which should work everywhere, but somehow that isn't the case.

The "itsme" SSO app is even worse. You can't use it without using an iOS or Android smartphone (and even then it probably won't work if it's rooted). And it's got this really weird requirements of being secured by a 5-digit pin (no more, no less last I checked..).

[CyberThijs]

Using the PKCS11 certificates on a Belgian eID is cumbersome because the whole 'client certificate' workflow has always been a pain in the butt UX-wise. Many workarounds have been implemented to improve on this, making it less platform-independent than theoretically possible.

The itsme app works totally fine for me, and my less tech-literate family members. It strikes a good balance in UX and security.

All in all, I think that the Belgian government is doing a good job in this. It needs to work well for the average user, which it does! I don't expect my government to spend time and money to support all fringe cases like smartphones that don't run iOS or Android.

[elric]

> I don't expect my government to spend time and money to support all fringe cases like smartphones that don't run iOS or Android.

I expect my government to create solutions that work for everyone. Including "fringe cases". Including people in poverty. The marginalised. The contrarians. The smartphoneless. Everyone.

Edit: and I especially expect them not to further the de-facto duopoly of Google & Apple.

[JW_00000]

Note that itsme is not a requirement for anything, so the smartphoneless still have alternatives available. To file your taxes in Belgium, you have the option to file on paper, or online by logging in through one of: eID reader, itsme, 2FA using an app (e.g. Google Auth, Authy), e-mail, text message, or a EU-wide ID system. Who exactly is being excluded here? Also, which other smartphone OSes do you expect them to support?

[sam_lowry_]

> Belgian eID works (almost) flawlessly on Linux.

The software stack is pretty much standardized. I am a bit worried about aarch64 platforms, but hopefully they will also be supported.

OTOH, the itsme application is a huge security issue aside of being a serious vendor lock-in over passwords, 2FA and OTP. It is tivoising logins like OKTA, except that here, it is mandated by the state.

[elric]

It's not just about working on various platforms. The whole thing is just ... weird. When you're signing something with eID, you have no idea what you're signing. It could be anything. You have to trust that's signing what you think it's signing. Even the difference between signing and authenticating isn't always clear. It would be super easy to trick a user into signing a document while pretending to present a login form.

[ipatec]

that's why I said "okish". I think "itsme" works fine for most people. But yes, the system is far from perfect. However, do you have trust that the EU Commission will design something better?

[hyperman1]

We have different experiences then, mine are fine. I've been filing my taxes with eID on linux debian stable + firefox for years, maybe even decades. Had to add the apt repository for eid.

[robert_foss]

With free mobility, having a eID/wallet that covers all of the EU makes sense.

Being a Swede who now lives in Germany, I can tell you that the lack of system level integration or even compatibility is a real hassle.

[genericacct]

The need is pretty clear in these covid times: do you want 27 different green/vaccine certificates? They would be super easy to fake.

[ipatec]

It will be super easy to fake regardless. Based on how I've seen their system just a scan from the screen of another friend will do the job. There is no biometric crosscheck and I think we should never get to that. We don't need such complicated solutions with massive privacy risks for relatively small problems.