[csdtx]

Loneliness comes from a lack of community and people who you can trust. You will not build a community and find people who you can trust through small talk and involving yourself in groups that are based on transient interests that can be changed in an instant. There is a reason gangs and groups have some sort of hazing and acceptance ceremony.

[BuildTheRobots]

This is one of the reasons I'm so quick to suggest Hackspaces to geeky adults looking for social contact. Due to the massively varied nature of activities there tends to be a couple of sub-groups that cater to your specific interests (even if it's only an interest that month) and overall tends to be a group of decent people that you can easily progress through the smalltalk phases and into actual friendships.

[adkadskhj]

Yup. My thought process here[1] is that real friendships only occur from time. So you need long hours with people, whom you either get along with or you don't. You can choose the group of people to increase your odds for sharing interests or personality overlaps to help your chances, but it still requires time.

This is why work friendships in my experience are quite easy, even for an introverted hermit like myself. Often common interests between people, and _tons_ of time bonding.

If i really cared about forming more friendships i'd do what you suggested - find groups that interest me and spend the time needed to form friendships. I'm also a little weird in that while i get along with a lot of people and i am (hopefully) easy to get along with, i'm generally not interested in relationships without common interests and activities. Because i don't like to socialize purely for the sake of socializing - i like building something together, or playing something together, or enjoying food together, or whatever it is i am actually interested in.. which is usually software.

[1]: Which is probably useless, as i'm generally an introvert who still has less friends than i'd prefer.

[selestify]

> This is why work friendships in my experience are quite easy, even for an introverted hermit like myself. Often common interests between people, and _tons_ of time bonding.

Really depends on your team, in my experience. Nothing wrong at all with being a middle-aged parent who's too busy to do things with coworkers outside of work, of course. It's a workplace, and we're here to do work, not hang out. But my friendships at work tend to happen with people who are around my age and are interested in doing fun things together outside of work too.

Maybe it depends on your definition of "friend" as well. For me, no matter how well I get along with someone at work, so long as we're only chatting with each other over lunch and coffee breaks and the occasional team event, we're just acquaintances, not "real" friends in the sense that you hang out just for fun and help each other out with things that come up in personal life.

[imbnwa]

Unfortunately it feels like a lot of "culture fit" is actually "do I want to hang out with you"

[selestify]

Yes, that is really quite unfortunate.

[throwawayboise]

Yes, I am friendly with many people at work, but these relationships have never developed into anything beyond that.

[em-bee]

same here. those people that became friends at work were those where we had a common interest besides work, and we would have become friends even if we had worked at different companies.

[ashneo76]

I don't think that is weird. There is only so much partying and drinking I can do. The real friendship happens outside the club. Meeting once a month at a happy hour doesn't cut it even. It's volunteering together, workouts, game nights, dinners, where that happens.

[em-bee]

absolutely, also linux user groups.

everywhere i travelled or lived i was easily welcomed to be an active member of the local user group and from several i have friends that still remember me a decade or two later.

i don't even remember any smalltalk phase (except for the smalltalk programmers group :-). there usually was some topic or someone with a question and we launched straight into technical discussions. all i had to do was show up and participate occasionally.

[s0rce]

I agree, I have never made a long standing connection with someone I've met while going to a store in a city. I've gotten to know store owners for stores I've frequented over years but not just randomly running into customers. It seems like most cities I've lived in you don't really just start talking to people randomly, maybe I'm just not very friendly but it seems like a survival instinct to avoid crazy folks.

[wincy]

My wife is from New York and has this instinct you speak of. She gets mad when I talk to bank tellers. I grew up in the Midwest and chat with everyone. It makes sense too, because even in a city of a million, very often I’ll start chatting with someone and realize that we know someone in common. Happens all the time.

My wife said such a thing would NEVER happen in New York, there’s just too many people.

[hombre_fatal]

Most people here could benefit from talking to everyone and honing that skill, especially single guys, instead of just lambasting it as “small talk”.

When you don’t talk to people, you throw out a great amount of serendipity in life. e.g. Most of my friends right now and women I’ve dated I’ve met in lines at the coffee shop, parking my rental bike at the dock, and other unlikely places.

I wasn’t always that person so I empathize with the knee jerk kick against the idea, but it’s time to evolve, guys.

[PrimalDual]

I agree with your approach to the point I think it’s the only way to really tackle loneliness and making friends. You just have to talk to strangers, often about nothing.

Unfortunately for the less socially trained, the advice in the article seems pretty daunting. It reminds me of of the quote “people won’t remember what you said but they’ll remember how you made then feel”. I am pretty sure I’ve made a few people feel awkward or mildly uncomfortable in my time trying to do this.

Naturally, I’ve gotten better but since it’s not something I do frequently I’m still pretty bad at it. I really wish there were a systematic way to train talking to strangers in an environment where it’s ok to make minor social missteps. Unfortunately it seems to me that such an environment is some stage of development that I missed at an earlier age. Is there some way forward that doesn’t just involve eating the losses as a cost of learning?

[akiselev]

> Is there some way forward that doesn’t just involve eating the losses as a cost of learning?

I've always felt that Toastmasters and improv were good ways forward, depending on individual preference (formal/businessy vs comedic). The popular conception is that the former is all about public speaking and the latter comedy but most people I know who have gotten into either went to improve their general socializing/banter skill (I haven't participated in either, just relaying anecdata)

[alexanderdmitri]

I've found the opposite by working in a sales position.

I'm introverted, so it sometimes felt like torture getting through some days. I felt dizzy and drained after 10+ hours of talking, pitching and trying to close sometimes hundreds of strangers over one day.

People do buy based on emotion, you'll see the progression from feature to benefit to emotional benefit in most structured sales cycles. The best sales people make customers feel great and tie it to the product. You need to learn about what they're looking for and why, it's rarely 'one size fits all.'

You learn tricks and learn to have fun. I realized mental fortitude and positive socialization is really hard work, not just disposition as I wrote it off before. You can set goals for yourself and learn from having an actual point of success. And you don't eat without achievement, in my case at least. Just pick a product that you actually believe in and makes lives and the world better (and has a good commission model).

[tormeh]

> My wife said such a thing would NEVER happen in New York, there’s just too many people.

You're not talking to a random sample of people, so it's not actually thaaat unlikely to be someone who knows someone you do

[rhines]

Would you be willing to talk a bit more on how you get into that kind of conversation? I feel like bridging the gap between the necessary discussion of "Can you deposit this cheque please? Thanks." to the personal discussion of "Oh wow you went to Sycamore high and played on the hockey team? Don't suppose you know Johnny?" is a real art if you don't want to sound like a probing weirdo, and I have no idea how to do it.

[throwawayboise]

Start with something pleasant and impersonal just to see if they're interested in talking. "Having a good day?" can lead to "how do you like working here" can lead to "you look familiar, are you originally from around here" can lead to "Oh wow you went to Sycamore High." If you get the sense that the other person isn't chatty or seems put off, you just stop talking.

[nradov]

Oh your wife is from New York? Does she know my friend Joe? Joe Smith?

[throwawayboise]

It's weird because the New Yorkers I know are fearless talkers who will engage anyone on any topic.

[wincy]

She is like that now, but maybe it’s because she grew up in a middle class suburb on Long Island. She’d get cat called by construction workers and stuff, and tried to make herself as unnoticed as possible.

Now she’s considered really aggressive by midwesterners but she’s also known for getting things done because of that.

[jumaro]

I had a friendship of several years with someone I met at my local library. I don't think something like that is common, but it's not impossible either.

[danenania]

Yep, along the same lines I've always found that it's much faster to get to know people by doing something immersive with them, even if it's only for a day or a weekend, compared to seeing them regularly but only for an hour or two. Spending a whole weekend together can be equivalent to months of weekly interactions or years of monthly interactions.

So if you want to make friends, I'd suggest looking for multi-day workshops, retreats, festivals, tournaments, conferences, etc. over weekly or monthly meetups.

[bhalina]

But can you make real connections without small talk first?

[mr-wendel]

Rightly said! Additionally, is worth getting good at enjoying small talk as a good way to get comfortable (and help others get comfortable!) in novel situations.

The goal isn't to imagine that every exchange is an opportunity to make a friend and build a relationship, although that is true. It is to build a respect and appreciation for reading and giving social cues.

At some point you will be faced with a great opportunities to connect with others. Nothing is worse than unwittingly making people responsible for your needs by being unable to empathize with others because you're so focused on trying to make it work and get your needs met.

[em-bee]

yes, join an activity where you have to actively do something together. the conversation will then focus around what you are doing.

when you play boardgames you talk to learn the rules of the game and you use the player interactions that make up the game.

when you volunteer you talk about the work needs to be done.

any hobbies or sports you talk about how to do things.

you make connections by frequently interacting with the same people. do it long enough, be a reliable helper, and you'll make friends.